The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

Elsie?

Posted by Daniel Simmons on January 4, 2020, 12:07 pm

Hello guys
I have a receiver spotted for a project and the price is right. If it is not an elsie it was sired by one. For all practical purposes it began life as a regular sidelock hammerless frame field grade. It has the the machining in front for the elsie cocking levers and the space behind the rib extension to engage the bolt, but it also has a couple of notched recesses amidships in the water table across the slot for the lug that I can't locate on another shotgun. These look to be a machining cut to activate an extractor link like we see on the Stevens 225, 235 and others of that ilk. Serial number 96XXX with all three patent dates present. Can somebody please tell me what I am looking at?

Re: Elsie?

Posted by Tom Archer on January 4, 2020, 12:51 pm, in reply to "Elsie?"

Those slots were milled into the frame to accommodate the "ears" of the rotary joint check device contained in the barrel lug of these very early Smith guns. This feature would not work with Hunter's auto-ejector guns and was dropped sometime after 1900 because of that issue; and also because it was unnecessary for the gun to function properly. For whatever it's worth, the maker's name would have been located on the barrels on these early low grade guns; so I'm assuming you have no barrels. If so, you are likely to have problems finding a set of barrels to work with this early frame. In my opinion you'd be light years ahead in time and expense to find a project gun with a set of barrels already attached. Good luck.

Rotary joint check frame cut-outs

Posted by Drew Hause on January 4, 2020, 2:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Elsie?"

What Bro. Tom said, but I learn best with pictures

Re: Elsie?

Posted by Daniel R. Simmons on January 4, 2020, 3:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Elsie?"

Barrels are no issue I intend to build a monoblock for the project. I always try to seek out parts that are already beyond collector value.

these roller joint check guns are the best

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on January 4, 2020, 6:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Elsie?"

Hello Daniel, You can find a wrecked set of these roller check barrels without much difficulty. If all you need is the back end 6 inches you will be fine. Remove the top and bottom ribs and save them before you cut anything. Happy New Year, Jent

Re: these roller joint check guns are the best

Posted by Daniel R. Simmons on January 4, 2020, 11:19 pm, in reply to "these roller joint check guns are the best"

Hi Jent
I also like the looks of the earlier frame. Tom Archer in his reply mentioned the ejector issue with the rotary bolt keeper slotted models. Since I intend to go with a monoblock anyway I guess I can build in whatever it takes to make some ejectors work as well I guess. Time to screw up my courage, advise the wife, and buy the frame. She is all stripped down, firing pin bushings and all except for the 3 position safety mech. I hope she is not a 10 gauge, probably she is a 12, but if God smiles on me maybe she will be a sixteen. More work of course, and tougher to find parts, but sleeker and worth every headache. Still learnin'

Re: these roller joint check guns are the best

Posted by Dan Wildhaber on January 5, 2020, 12:11 am, in reply to "Re: these roller joint check guns are the best"

Finding a receiver is the easy part.
Like with every project getting off to the right start will pay big dividends in the end.

Life is short; starting with the best candidate will save countless hours of shop time.

Many of us do succumb to the charm of the roller extraction design but there is probably good reasons it was rendered obsolete.

Re: these roller joint check guns are the best

Posted by Tom Archer on January 5, 2020, 7:58 am, in reply to "Re: these roller joint check guns are the best"

Daniel
I'm assuming you are a machinist of some ability, so good luck in your efforts to resurrect this Smith frame from the dead; but in all honesty, if you've not attempted something like this before, you don't have a clue as to what it is you are undertaking. I again encourage you to take my advice and spend a few extra bucks on a more worthy project. As to the roll check and ejectors, I've examined a very early roll check gun Hunter Arms converted to auto-ejectors. They removed the roll and plugged the hole in the lug; they then modified/re-drilled the hole in the barrels for the shell extractors to accommodate ejector stems (and they also made an entirely new ejector forend iron and wood). This was all custom work done in the Hunter Arms repair shop.

roller joint check guns are not obsolete just expensive

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on January 5, 2020, 8:05 am, in reply to "Re: these roller joint check guns are the best"

The roller check joint guns are not, were not, obsolete they were just more expensive to build. The roller check joint system is the best mechanical spent shell EXTRACTOR system. I myself do not like ejectors, I prefer EXTRACTORS over ejectors. I would not build a monoblock from scratch for this project I would create a monoblock from an old set of wrecked barrels that were roller check joint barrels. Be very alert to the distance between the centers of the firing pins in the frame and the centers of the bores of the barrels that you use to create a monoblock. Good Shooting To You, Jent.

Re: Elsie?

Posted by Tom Garver on January 5, 2020, 9:30 am, in reply to "Elsie?"

Daniel, I think you have an interesting gun. First, the serial number of this gun is in a range where factory records were not recovered, so any info you can furnish along with photos have historical value for the association. As Dr. Jim's research indicates, gun # 89,999 was built in 1901 so your gun was built sometime later. We don't know exactly when and in what configuration it was built. Also, being built after 1901, the barrel stop or roller check joint would probably be of the second style so you may need a set of barrels configured for the second style. Please post photos so that others here can give you more assistance. If you can't post photos please send them to Jent Mitchell @ jent.mitchell@gmail.com so that he can post them. Thanks, Tom

Re: these roller joint check guns are the best

Posted by Daniel Simmons on January 5, 2020, 9:42 am, in reply to "Re: these roller joint check guns are the best"

Hi Tom
It is impolite to brag, but yes I am a 30+ year veteran of the machining trade. I have access to a couple of Bridgeport mills and a large and small engine lathe. The boss is a young guy, but he gives you free rein if you keep things on the up and up. Then there is Monte. He is 78, and he works part time with us. When you get stuck on a job, you ask Monte. He can also practically weld the fillings into your teeth. After thinking the matter over, I am going to opt for two receivers. The roller notched one and a featherweight 100XXX from 1927. As I have mentioned before, I am no LC Smith guy but I will be when this is over. The receivers will start the project off for less than $50 total, and in the worst case scenario I will clean them up if only for the next guy. Off the topic, I once mentioned Uncle Dan Lefever's all-way adjustable receiver to Monte. That got his attention! I would love to present him with one to reincarnate. Still learning.

Re: Elsie?

Posted by Daniel R. Simmons on January 5, 2020, 9:55 am, in reply to "Re: Elsie?"

Sure thing Tom. I will order the receiver(s) today on my C & R, once they arrive I will give descriptions and post pictures as soon as I can get techy enough to do so. I love balanced ball Bridgeport handles. Computers not so much. Thanx much all you guys are the real deal.

Re: Elsie?

Posted by Joe Ray on January 5, 2020, 11:54 am, in reply to "Re: Elsie?"

I have a set of 0 (Damascus) grade barrels for the joint check system. They have been cut off to 22" and the joint check parts are missing. If you are interested let me know. They are 12ga and measure 2.65" at the breech face. SN: 40336. 817 917-2513

Re: roller joint check guns are not obsolete just expensive

Posted by Dan Wildhaber on January 5, 2020, 12:46 pm, in reply to "roller joint check guns are not obsolete just expensive"

Jent,
My apologies; obsolete was a poor choice of words.
Archaic would have been a better choice of terms to describe the roller extraction system.
If clean and lubricated both designs are perfectly functional.
In my opinion the early design has a mechanical advantage while the later design has the advantage of simplicity and less machine work which was a significant consideration in an era where every additional machining operation increased production time.
Like you, I have no use for ejectors.

Re: roller joint check guns are not obsolete just expensive

Posted by Daniel R. Simmons on January 5, 2020, 1:25 pm, in reply to "roller joint check guns are not obsolete just expensive"

Hi Jent
I am a nervous wreck today waiting to close the deal on receiver #1. I will never grow up. There is this wonderful material available to us machinists these days called AISI half hard 4140 Chrome Moly. At Rockwell 38 Hardness it machines slowly but beautifully and you can make a modern bolt action receiver out of it as is. The old timers would have killed for it. In the shop where I am employed we stock it as Accraloy, so there are plenty of low cost scraps available. A monoblock and locking bolt made from this material, coupled with modern steel tubes, is the ticket for this moderately excessive pressure project. Sorry but no to the extractors. Always reload your hunting ammo in well used cases you can afford to lose cause when you crack the gun open with game down you don't want to see anything but smoking holes.

Re: Elsie?

Posted by Daniel R. Simmons on January 5, 2020, 1:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Elsie?"

Thank you Joe Ray. I am still in the process of closing on the receivers. This is kind of a new build, not a restoration. Sort of what LC could and should have done. Period correct of course but modern materials. I will be all over the parts forums as we go but first I gotta land the receivers and determine what we got.

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