The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Doug Precourt on December 8, 2019, 1:08 am

Was at the Denver Gun Show today and came across an interesting Elsie. It’s a F quality Syracuse hammer gun, with all parts showing the same serial number of 27868 (This number is for you, David W, for your Syracuse list). But there were strange things about it, based on my limited experience.

1). The barrels had no wording on top. Ones I have seen were imprinted with “LC Smith Maker” and “Syracuse, NY”? These had nothing?
2). Normally an F quality Syracuse gun would be fitted with stub twist barrels, but this gun appears to have the “‘Choice three rod herring bone pattern” normally reserved for the Syracuse Quality 7? This is based on Dr. Drew’s website at

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1UYzpTlAj4tQxjifoxxwfXeS7Sc477_J4h-FCIsm9rAA

While examining the gun I notice another thing that may, perhaps explain this. The butt plate states that it is a “Trap Gun”. Is it possible that a F grade would have top of the line Damascus barrels if also designated as a trap gun?

Also, Can David W give me an idea of when this gun was most likely built? I am assuming 1885.

Thanks,
- Doug

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Drew Hause on December 8, 2019, 5:06 am, in reply to "Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

Doug: that is an interesting pattern called "Bernard ribbon" or "Rubans Royal" (by Manufacture Liegeoise) and it has been found on 1892-1897 hammerless No. 1, but which were unmarked as such. We've also seen the pattern on a 1902 F grade hammer gun.
These barrels were marked "Laminated Steel"

The "Trap Gun" buttplate is commonly found on late hammerless Syracuse and c. 1890-1910 No. 0 to 2 grade Fulton guns. No "Trap Gun" was advertised in the pre-1913 catalogs, and the buttplate was likely a marketing tool to promote Smith guns for the increasingly popular sport of trap shooting.

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Tom Garver on December 8, 2019, 7:15 am, in reply to "Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

Good morning, Doug. This gun was probably built late 1888-1889. I say that because the top of the barrels are not marked on transition guns of that era. I have several hammer guns of this era, all with different damascus patterns, but this is the first I've seen with the Bernard "Reubens" barrels. What is with the crude under rib fix? Thanks for sharing, Tom

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Drew Hause on December 8, 2019, 7:50 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

Tom: it appears that the reinforcing wedge and barrel loop separated and was ? JB welded

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Tom Garver on December 8, 2019, 8:18 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

Looks like silicone caulk around a window. LOL. I would still buy it because I like those barrels. My early Quality 1 has refinshed Bernard barrels and they are stunning. I hope Doug buys this gun for me. Haha

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by David Williamson on December 8, 2019, 1:14 pm, in reply to "Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

Doug thanks for the serial number. As stated this is a late Syracuse gun and is what I call a Transition gun (transitioning from Syracuse to Fulton and most likely in parts when moved). Interesting set of barrels as I have never seen a Syracuse hammer or hammerless with the Bernard pattern. It could have been a mix-up at Fulton as all barrels in the white look identical. Once the serial number is on and barrels are rust blued/etched whatever type of barrel it was would be assembled to the that serial numbered gun.

Those barrels in your picture have the rounded lug as was done in Fulton compared to the squared lug used in Syracuse.

The Trap Gun butt plate used in Syracuse was an advertising ploy. In Syracuse catalogs it stated that these guns were good in the field as well as on the trap line.
The Trap gun butt plate was used on hammerless guns and the hammer guns had a setter with it's right foot on a rock.

In my records starting around 26644 to 29743 most all of these guns had the rounded lug, no makers mark on barrels, narrow convex ribs on receiver, coarser checkering, "V" shaped ebony for-end tip compared to the vase shaped Syracuse for-end. These were from 1890 and again what I call Transition guns.

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Doug Precourt on December 9, 2019, 12:14 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

I have difficulty seeing the difference between the lower grade Bernard Ribbon/Ruben’s Royal and high grade Herringbone pattern as shown from the pictures on your web page. Thanks for the clarification. But it sounds like this gun is likely the earliest F grade with these barrels. Here are some additional pictures of the barrels and pattern.

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Doug Precourt on December 9, 2019, 12:55 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

Here are some pics of the repaired section. I have no idea what was used to do it. I thought it was either soldered or welded, but I have no experience or knowledge of metal processes.

As I was speaking to the gun dealer, he explained that this gun was on consignment from a 90+ year old women who’s deceased husband used the gun in the early 1900s. Apparently the gun was in the font seat of the car when he was driving and was in an accident, the impact caused the gun to lodge upward between the seat and the ceiling protecting the him from being crushed, saving his life. It cracked the stock and apparently required the repair you see on the barrels. He continued to use the gun after doing the unique repairs.

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Doug Precourt on December 9, 2019, 1:14 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

I would like to pick up this gun. I have been trying to collect as many different types of twist and Damascus barrels I can, within my budget and this one affordable for me. The stock will take a lot of work and money to restore. I’ll let you know when it happens. :-)

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Doug Precourt on December 9, 2019, 1:39 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

Below are additional pictures of the gun so that you can get a sense of the work required to restore it.

Curious what the numbers 112 imprinted on the stock might represent?

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Doug Precourt on December 10, 2019, 12:37 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

Thank you Dr. Drew for your comments and insight. I was wondering if you know if other LCS contemporaries like Parker, Lefever, Ithaca, Remington used Bernard/Reubens Damascus barrel pattern(s)?
Thanks.

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Doug Precourt on December 10, 2019, 12:47 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

Tom,
Great talking with you today and thanks for your encouragement and promise of help and advice. I’ll let you know when I have the gun in hand.
- Doug

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Doug Precourt on December 10, 2019, 1:11 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

Thanks Dave,
It sounds like this gun represents a number of firsts. Damascus pattern, butt plate and vase shaped fore-end ebony insert, all on a hammer gun!! Kinda fun! Thanks for sharing.

Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun

Posted by Tom Garver on December 10, 2019, 6:52 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting Syracuse LCS Hammer Gun"

FYI, I checked the four hammer guns that I have in the 29000 serial number range for the forend tip design. They are all F grades and the 3 early ones have the bell shaped tip. The later one, SN 29569, has the "V".

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