The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Pietro Mauro on November 5, 2019, 12:57 pm

Hello,I'm still looking for an L.C. in Italy and fewdays ago,a man contact me. He told me that he recieved thisgun from a friend that hereditate from an uncle that delivered the gun from America in the early 1900...Today he sent me photos and I wanna some suggestion from more experts. Could it be really pre 1900 or is a late Marlin production? What about the color of the sides? Thanks in advance

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Pietro on November 5, 2019, 1:00 pm, in reply to "LC or Marlin production?"

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Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Pietro on November 5, 2019, 1:04 pm, in reply to "LC or Marlin production?"

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Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Steve Arnett on November 5, 2019, 2:04 pm, in reply to "LC or Marlin production?"

Pietro, I believe you have a gun made before 1890. While it does appear that finish has been altered somewhat, it looks like a well-preserved example.
When you reassemble the gun, take care lining up the pins protruding from each side of the barrel lug with the slots milled into the frame. Marlin had nothing to do with making that one!

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Drew Hause on November 5, 2019, 2:50 pm, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

As Steve said, the gun was manufactured about 1892 and, unless replaced at a later date, has damascus barrels that have been blued.
Is that a Birmingham proof mark just forward of the barrel flats?
The "L.C. Smith" engraving on the rib is not original. The metal surfaces have been polished and were original color case hardened.
It may be a No. 1 and if so should have engraving on the sideplates.
If the barrels were blued with hot caustic salts, the ribs are likely to separate.
While applauding your passion, I would keep looking.

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Pietro on November 5, 2019, 3:36 pm, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

Thanks for the info...unfortunatly I cannot assess the gun closely because is really far from me...so,do you think that they change the sideplates or is another Grade?

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Drew Hause on November 5, 2019, 3:54 pm, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

The serial number should be stamped on the inner surface of the lockplates, and should match the SN on the action and barrels.

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Pietro on November 6, 2019, 1:01 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

Sorry Drew,about you previous answer...what do you mean that if were used hot caustic salts the ribs separate? They change the rib?

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Drew Hause on November 6, 2019, 7:35 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

Smith barrels were blued/"blacked" by the traditional slow cold rust method.
Modern "hot dip" caustic salt bluing dissolves the solder holding the ribs and barrels together.
There is also "cold" bluing with a selenium dioxide compound, Carbona/charcoal bluing, and Nitre bluing, used on the Smith trigger guards and forend iron in lower grade extractor guns.

All the methods provide slightly different colors.

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Tom Archer on November 6, 2019, 8:06 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

I'll add two comments to the information given you by Drew. The shape of the lock plates
on this gun are appropriate for an 1892 "Regular Style" L.C. Smith frame; and based on the inletting appear to be original to this gun. On a very early Hunter Arms era gun like the example you pictured, it is not uncommon to find no grade stamp; and as the lack of extensive engraving show this to be a lower grade gun, it is most likely equivalent to a grade or quality 1. And to add to Drew's comments about your barrels, Hunter Arms always noted steel quality on the barrels of a fluid steel barreled gun. As there is no steel type indicator found of these barrels, they are Damascus and were blued after-market (usually for purposes of deception). Damascus barrels can be safe to use with low-pressure period equivalent loads PROVIDED they have been examined by a professional double gunsmith and determined to be in sound condition. Good luck, and the information provided here should help greatly in evaluating this gun; but since we can't examine this piece in hand, the word to remember is CAUTION

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Pietro on November 6, 2019, 9:46 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

Thanks a lot for the new info.So what I understood that all this gun parts should be original,with the exception of the bluing and the rib with "L.C. Smith" written on that. Now,I havefew questions more (sorry but I'm not an expert at all and I need to study much more on L.C. guns)
Can this be considered a nice piece of collection or just a simple "fake"?
Can the barrels return to their original Damascus color?
Why there is a sort f engraving on the top of barrel lug? (Usually,the L.C. of low grade that I saw on photos have flat)[img]https://

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Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Drew Hause on November 6, 2019, 10:28 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

Could you please post a close-up of the mark just forward of the flats? It may be a Birmingham proof mark, which, with the non-factory rib and lug engraving, suggests the barrels were at some time replaced by other than Hunter Arms.

These barrels were done by Armi Sarezzo in 1960

ARMAF in Belgium also did barrels, but they should carry Belgium proof marks

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Jim Stubendieck on November 6, 2019, 11:17 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

This shotgun was recorded in the Hunter Arms Company records as a Quality 1 and was finished in 1892.

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Pietro on November 6, 2019, 1:13 pm, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

I ask the owner to send me photos about the eventual marks on the barrels,waiting for him...I tried to zoom the images that I have but is not clearly visible[img]https://

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Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Drew Hause on November 6, 2019, 2:07 pm, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

That is the Birmingham Provisional Proof mark, so the tubes were sourced in England. That doesn't tell us who fabricated the barrels however.

Thanks Dr. Jim. Early No. 1s should have engraving like

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Pietro on November 7, 2019, 1:05 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

So the Birmingham proof mark means that the barrel is surely Damascus barrel?

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Drew Hause on November 7, 2019, 6:11 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

No Pietro. The proofmark, and the non-factory engraving on the rib, mean that the barrels were replaced at some time, not by Hunter Arms, and are likely fluid steel.

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Pietro on November 7, 2019, 7:05 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

Ok,thanks...so I will think about to buy or not the gun in order to start my collection. How much can be the value of such gun with those change?
Where I can find some original barrel? Do you know if is difficult to export barrels from America to Europe?

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Drew Hause on November 7, 2019, 7:31 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

Find a better gun Pietro.

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Steve Arnett on November 7, 2019, 9:07 am, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

I couldn't agree more with Drew on this. While this gun may or may be safe to shoot, it has very little value to collectors.

Re: LC or Marlin production?

Posted by Pietro on November 7, 2019, 12:17 pm, in reply to "Re: LC or Marlin production?"

Thanks so much. I’ll try to find something else,even if here in Italy is really difficult to find!

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