Posted by Brian McMahon on September 24, 2019, 11:32 am
Hi Tom I read your article and the part on the split top tang made me look at my LC Smiths shotguns. I bought a 3E 16 gauge at an auction this past Febuary that was made in 1908. The top tang is split. Also there was a very small repair done to bottom tang(trigger guard) looks like brass was used. Could this be a repair shop gun that was built? There is no overstamping of numbers on gun. The gun is in great shape the engraving is excecellent too. Does a repair built gun have less value? Gun shoots great. it has a selective single trigger and black ivory piece in forearm. I have not done the research letter yet on it like my other LC Smiths I own. Any thoughts, opinion? Great article its why I love buying LC's because of the history of them. Thanks for any response. Brian
Re: Question for Tom Archer on his article in Journal
Brian Congratulations on acquiring a Smith 3E in 16 gauge, as this grade with that chambering is a hard to find article. As to your questions, the following would be my responses. When there is no serial number record, as is the case with the gun in the article, we date Smith guns by studying features found on surviving examples; and from that study we generally don't find the two-piece top tang feature after 1908. And although features from these time frame studies are always subject to some degree of overlap, this feature would be standard issue on your 1908 era example; and not represent a later modification done in the repair shop. The "brass" you see on the trigger guard represents a brazed welding repair, as brazing was often used for aftermarket metal parts repair by gunsmiths; and although this repair could have been done in Hunter's repair shop, I'm not aware (and don't believe) that Hunter would have used brazing as a method to effect a repair? They would have simply replaced the broken part. As to the value of a "repair shop gun" I can't say that having such a piece makes the gun more or less valuable which is why I stated that each example should be examined on its own merits (grade, condition, gauge, etc.). That said, as examples of repair shop guns are so rare, I suspect the advanced Smith collector who seeks all unique things Smith related would have the most interest. From your description your 3E is entirely grade standard and was ordered with Hunter's HOT and auto-ejector options; should be a great gun to carry to the range and afield. Thanks for the kudos on the article, and let us hope more examples of repair shop guns will surface. Best, Tom
Re: Question for Tom Archer on his article in Journal
Tom thanks so much for responding back. I wish you could see the gun it is really a good looking 3E. Hope to get a 20E gauge and 12E gauge to go with it
Re: Question for Tom Archer on his article in Journal
After additional thought, please allow me to add some additional comments for a complete clarification. Whenever I refer to a Smith gun as a "repair shop" piece, I am specifically referring to guns originally built during the Syracuse NY production era then rebuilt during the Hunter Arms production era; and more specifically Syracuse era barrels used to fabricate an otherwise new gun with the then Hunter Arms Company production features. These guns can be easily identified by virtue of the fact that serial numbers from those Syracuse era barrels were always retained for use with the new frame and other parts; and additionally will not be found in any of the serial number blocks used contained within any of the Hunter Arms serial number ledger books (remember that in 1919 when Hunter, and in 1946 with Marlin Firearms, established new numerical serial number blocks starting with SN#1 created some degree of serial number overlap, those new number blocks also have a letter prefix with each number to distinguish these later production guns from early period Smith guns). In my opinion Syracuse era guns re-barreled by Hunter Arms are not "repair shop" guns; they were simply repaired (re-barreled) and the original serial number, frames, stocks, and other Syracuse era parts retained. As FYI, I'd referenced in my original article a pistol gripped 10-bore C Grade Syracuse hammer gun converted by Hunter's repair shop to a Grade 2E straight gripped gun with HOT trigger option, that information edited out due to space limitations; but I would judge this gun to be more than simple a repair shop gun as it is actually a hammer to hammerless "conversion gun illustrating the additional capabilities of Hunter's workmen. In examining that gun the workers at Hunter Arms had done quite of bit of work to the Syracuse era barrels in order to convert them from a roll-check extractor gun to an auto-ejector gun. And for what it's worth, the owner of that gun still had the original C Grade Stock and hammer frame in his barn; and when John Houchins was writing his book and unable to find an example of C Grade hammer gun to photograph, that was the hammer frame used and featured in his book. When checking those photos take note of the fact that the forend is missing (lost to time) and that the opening lever is well to the right; for although the modified barrels still perfectly fit the frame, the rib extension has be modified slightly and will not allow the rotary bolt to engage. Finally, and although many Smith guns were returned to Hunter's repair shop over the decades for various items of work and repair, those produced during the Hunter Arms era would never be judged "repair shop" guns as the serial numbers assigned to those guns and recorded in the shipping ledgers was always retained. Hope this helps.