The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun

Posted by Craig Staffan on March 11, 2019, 8:07 am

I'm trying to identify a Hunter Arms / LC Smith 12 gauge exposed Hammer Coach Gun. The receiver is nickel or possible chrome, the Hammers and Lever are Gold/Brass colored with some of coloring wore off in usual wear spots. The Butt Stock and Fore piece are checkered and good condition, minor dents on cheek area of Butt stock. Barrels are 20 inches long. Right barrel is stamped “Royal Steel” the Left Barrel is stamped “Hunter Arms Fulton, NY”. LC Smith is stamped on both sides of receiver. All serial numbers I can find on gun match 74XXX series.. Year model and Any information is appreciated

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Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun

Posted by Tom Garver on March 11, 2019, 9:39 am, in reply to "ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

Craig, your gun was made in 1899. The record book for the 70000 series of guns was not recovered and to my knowledge remains missing. What I can tell you is that I have 3 hammer guns in this serial # range, 1 in 71000 in 16 ga.with fine damascus barrels and 2 in 72000 in 12 ga with fine damascus barrels. All barrels are 30" and all stocks are checkered with the Prince of Wales grip. All 3 guns have the bar action lock which means the spring is in front of the action. I'll guess that your gun has the back action lock and type "C" hammers according to Dave Williamson's research. All 3 of my guns had blued barrels and traces of case coloring on the receivers when I purchased them. From you description I would say that the previous owner customized this gun to his liking

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Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun

Posted by Craig Staffan on March 12, 2019, 8:05 am, in reply to "ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

Picture links
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GofnhEbTNr5JfDJDSm7e2WqdZDMZzPOOLg/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zvdRSYs4lNGsf7EzMA8LLUGgTTYTGDW2IQ/view?usp=sharing

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Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun

Posted by Tom Archer on March 12, 2019, 11:42 am, in reply to "Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

You can request a research letter to confirm original barrel length; but in my opinion those barrels are not original and have been cut. The "gold" or brass plated triggers, hammers, and top lever represent some form of aftermarket "custom work"; as Hunter Arms did not pimp out guns in this manner. If this kind of thing strikes your fancy, then buy the thing; but you'd be wise to price it no higher than a parts gun. Cut barrels have a major negative impact on a vintage gun's value.

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Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun

Posted by Tom Garver on March 12, 2019, 3:52 pm, in reply to "Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

Research letters aren't available in this serial number range, 70,000 - 79,999, because the records have not been recovered

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Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun

Posted by Tom Archer on March 12, 2019, 5:39 pm, in reply to "Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

Thanks Tom, but I stand by my original conclusion that the original barrels have been cut.

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Hunter Arms Coach Guns

Posted by Drew Hause on March 12, 2019, 6:46 pm, in reply to "ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

Dr. Jim's "Production Records" lists a single 10g F grade hammer gun with a barrel of 27". There were 6 12g with 25" barrels. None shorter.
A single hammerless No. 0 12g had 24" barrels. There were no No. 00 12s or 10s with barrels shorter than 26".
I have never seen a period Hunter Arms' nor dealer advertisement for a "coach gun".
I realize there are no Syracuse, and very limited early Fulton records, but is anyone aware of a documented factory "coach gun"?

re: Wells Fargo guns

https://www.wellsfargo.com/about/history/faqs#Q10
10. How do I know if the Wells Fargo markings on an antique shotgun are real? "Wells Fargo" marked shotguns have become a problem among collectors of antique firearms. In general, each town's Well Fargo Agent bought weapons from local stores carrying whatever was available — it was not a central headquarters function. Just as with companies today, Wells Fargo's offices did not keep outdated records. Therefore, there are no comprehensive lists of Wells Fargo firearms.
Additionally, in recent years, many people have added "Wells Fargo" to actual antique weapons. All of this makes it very difficult to know whether any shotgun currently for sale was or was not used by Wells Fargo, regardless of the markings.

5. Is there a way to look up relatives who may have worked as stagecoach drivers for Wells Fargo?
Wells, Fargo & Co. directly ran stagelines only from 1866 to 1869, from Nebraska to California, and north from Utah into Montana and Idaho. Wells Fargo's files of stage drivers are far from complete, and mostly list drivers in California and Oregon. There is also some information on drivers of the Cal-Oregon stagecoach company that Wells Fargo contracted with.
For most of Wells Fargo's staging history, independent locally-run stage lines carried the express. These stagelines advertised in their town’s business directories and newspapers, which are usually available at state and county historical societies and special libraries.
There were many Wells Fargo wagon drivers, delivering for the Company in small towns and big cities until 1918. There is no comprehensive list of them, however. Again, state and county historical societies will have the best resources.

There was no "official" Wells Fargo gun. Local offices bought what they thought they needed at the local hardware store. So the Sacramento office might arm its men with Colt double barrel 10 gauges with the barrels 16 inches long, while the Los Angelas office might use Remington 12 gauges with 30 inch barrels.
Second, there was no consistency in how (or if) the guns were marked. WF &Co. Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo Freight. All kinds of markings. Basically, whatever the guy in charge of that office at the time thought should be on there.
Third, very few records were kept. Something like "January 14, 1887. Bought two new Colt's Revolvers, 45 caliber, SN 18573 and 21406, issued to guards Johnson and McNeil" records do not exist.

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Re: Hunter Arms Coach Guns

Posted by Tom Garver on March 12, 2019, 8:59 pm, in reply to "Hunter Arms Coach Guns"

I agree that the barrels were probably cut. A good photo of the end would prove some distance between the barrels and the chokes are probably cyl/cyl. All 3 of mine are full/full.

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Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun

Posted by Craig Staffan on March 13, 2019, 7:55 am, in reply to "ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

I thank everyone for the information provided. I do believe the barrels have been cut, by who and when unknown. I did find a post from a Shotgun Forum;

"John Hunter Sr was also in the business of building Railroads and supplied railroads with Iron for rails and other metals, needed to build railroads. As gifts to these railroads many Hunter Arms L.C. Smith Coach Guns were gifted to the railroads, these guns were usually 12 gauge double guns, but not always. All had SN numbers most had short BBls. Because these L.C. Smith weapons were gifts to each individual railroad company, to entice further investments and purchases, many of the SN were not documented in the Hunter Arms shipping invoices. If you happen to see a short BBl L.C. Smith double gun, don't be real fast to write it off as a sawed waste of time, it could be a real nice coach gun."

Since it seems all documents are missing I may never know the full story behind this gun, It still looks good hanging on the wall.

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Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun

Posted by Drew Hause on March 13, 2019, 10:47 am, in reply to "Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

The L.C. Smith Man/Dave Buehner's statement is fanciful fiction
https://shootingsportsman.com/community/guns-ammunition/a-little-more-hunter-arms-l-c-smith-history/
John Hunter Sr. DID build a section of rail in the 1870s, which became part of the Rome, Watertown & Ogdensburg Railroad (RW&O), long before acquiring L.C. Smith Maker, Syracuse and establishing Hunter Arms Co. (Fulton) in 1890.

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Courtesy of Roger Domer

Posted by Drew Hause on March 13, 2019, 10:49 am, in reply to "Hunter Arms Coach Guns"

From R.L. Wilson "Arms And Adventures In The American West". The gun on right appears to be a Syracuse Smith

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Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun

Posted by cres mills on March 13, 2019, 11:56 am, in reply to "ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

I am trying to find info on a double barrel LC smith (with Hammers) model # 156000. There is an F below the 6. Any info on year would be appreciated Thanks

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Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun

Posted by Mike Harris on March 13, 2019, 2:26 pm, in reply to "Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

There was recently a 10 gauge Quality B shotgun sold at Rock Island for a fairly big price that had a steel buttplate inscribed "Presented by the Makers to the Wells Fargo Co. Express San Francisco" but it had 30" barrels. I thought it was an interesting gun. Hopefully a member purchased it and will bring it to "show and tell". I was interested in the 16 gauge 32" hammer gun which I purchased. Mike

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L.C. Smith Baker

Posted by Drew Hause on March 13, 2019, 2:38 pm, in reply to "Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1032/5/antique-wells-fargo-inscribed-lc-smith-baker-quality-b-shotgun

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John & Thomas Hunter Railway Construction

Posted by Drew Hause on March 13, 2019, 5:08 pm, in reply to "Re: ID a LC Smith-Hunter Arms Coach Gun"

http://www.onlinebiographies.info/ny/cayu/sterling-ny-bios.htm

(In 1871 John and Thomas Hunter)...took a contract to grade a portion of the road bed of the Southern Central Railroad. They also contracted for the grading, masonry and bridge building of five miles of the Lake Ontario Shore Railroad. In 1872, they built about the same distance. In 1873, they contracted with the N. Y. C. & H. R. R. R. Company, for grading and masonry for the third and fourth tracks of that line between Syracuse and Clyde, a distance of thirty-five miles. In 1874, they built the R. &. W. R. R., from Ontario to Charlotte, entire distance eighteen miles. In 1875 and 1876, they built on the same road from Kendall to Lewiston, sixty-five miles. The same year they built the substructure of the railroad bridge over the Oswego river. In 1877, they did the track laying and ballasting of the Syracuse, Geneva & Corning Railroad. In September, 1877, they took the contract for the enlargement of sections 27 and 35 of the Welland Ship Canal in Canada, which includes the building of the aqueduct across the Chippewa River and the lift lock from the river to the canal, also the guard lock at the Lake Erie end.

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Re: John & Thomas Hunter Railway Construction

Posted by stanley hackett on March 13, 2019, 5:52 pm, in reply to "John & Thomas Hunter Railway Construction"

Drew. Is this John Hunter the father of the Hunter Brothers? He seems too old to be one of the brothers. Thanks. Stanley Hackett

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John Hunter Sr.

Posted by Drew Hause on March 13, 2019, 6:48 pm, in reply to "Re: John & Thomas Hunter Railway Construction"

John Hunter Sr. was 60 in 1888 when L.C. Smith agreed to sell the gun company
https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=rbond007&id=I10634&op=GET

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Re: L.C. Smith Baker

Posted by jay baskette on March 16, 2019, 8:39 am, in reply to "L.C. Smith Baker"

Thank you Drew. You are the best historical researcher, and I appreciate your frequent contributions to our avocation.

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Re: L.C. Smith Baker

Posted by David Williamson on March 16, 2019, 3:09 pm, in reply to "L.C. Smith Baker"

I have this serial number in my records, unfortunately I did not put a date or where from but if it had had the inscription on the butt plate I would have written that down. One can only wonder.

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Re: John Hunter Sr.

Posted by Stanley Hackett on March 16, 2019, 3:39 pm, in reply to "John Hunter Sr."

Thanks Drew. You are a most reliable source of information. Stanley

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Re: L.C. Smith Baker

Posted by Mark Britton on March 16, 2019, 7:39 pm, in reply to "Re: L.C. Smith Baker"

Ant no wonder too me !!

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Closing this long thread

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on March 16, 2019, 8:01 pm, in reply to "Re: L.C. Smith Baker"

I am closing this long, complex thread. Please do not hesitate to start another on the same subject.

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[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]