The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

L C Smith Hammer E Grade

Posted by Douglas Precourt on March 30, 2014, 12:35 am

Considering an old 12Ga Elsie with hammers and Damascus barrels. Serial No. 138XX appears to be from around 1884, E grade with 2 triggers, extractors not ejectors, and some nice engraving. Stock is in nice shape, oil finish, original butt plate (cracked) with full body dog, Prince of Wales style, but I suspect the stock is replacement since it has but one recent looking knick and no checkering. The far end of the fore arm has a triangle insert that I assumed was of ebony, but now appears to be plastic. Right firing pin is broken, but both hammers lock well and the bores are bright with some very light pitting. The 30" barrels show Damascus patterns, some rust spots, but the bluing is now brownish and chokes are modified/full. Written on the barrels is "L.C.Smith Makers, Syracuse, N.Y." (Left) and "Damascus Steel Barrels" (right). The thumb leaver for opening the break action is well to the left, but I understand that happens if someone replaced the spring with a new one that is too strong. It works well and the barrels and action fit tightly.

Based on my description so far, would this be shootable with RST or other low pressure shells? Can you tell me if it is really from 1884? What effect would a non original stock have on its value? Would a plastic insert in ten fore arm really be original. Can this old style firing pin be replaced easily and without too much cost? How about the spring that is moving the thumb leaver to the left. Are you aware of any competent gun smiths in central Virginia with experience with Elsie's like this? I have two other hammerless Feather Weight L.C.Smiths (12ga & 20ga) and have always wanted a hammer gun to use in the field, but am just worried that $900 may be too much for a gun like this, especially if not a shooter. Can't figure out how to add my photos to this?
Thanks for you help
- Doug

Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade

Posted by Carl Erickson on March 30, 2014, 2:53 am, in reply to "L C Smith Hammer E Grade"

Douglas: Without seeing the gun I cannot give it a value or determine if it is a shooter BUT it sounds like a gun that is very similar to my favorite gun that I use for sporting clays. I give my gun a value to me in excess of $2000.00, but I probably cannot get a quarter of that amount if I were sell it. The gun you describe is in better condition. As to the repair of a broken firing pin, the pins are available and the replacement is not difficult. As the gun it tight I would not worry about the thumb lever.

Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade

Posted by David Williamson on March 30, 2014, 6:21 am, in reply to "L C Smith Hammer E Grade"

Doug, from your serial number this gun would be from the 1884-85 period. Can you see any faint traces of checkering left to indicate that it is original. One way is to take the trigger guard screws out and lift it out of the inletting and turn it slightly to see if there are numbers stamped inside the inletting.
Most likely it is not the spring but the slot in the top rib extension that is worn causing the top lever to the left.
The ebony tip should be vase or bell shaped, not a "V" at this time.
Some the early firing pins were round with a 1/4" slot in them for retaining the set screw. The newer ones had a hour glass shape. You would have to have someone make one as they are not available.

If the stock is original, the other things can be fixed at a reasonable price. For this being an E Grade, you do not see many of these.

To add photos, you need an image hosting site, like Photobucket. It is free. You could send the pictures to me and I could post them for you.
jdw110@live.com

Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade

Posted by Dick Miller on March 30, 2014, 7:56 am, in reply to "Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade"

Douglas,
Yours is an unusual piece and advice on its restoration should be trusted to an expert. In Central Virginia I would recommend a trip to Rocky Mount--- Gunter Pfrommer-- who is most reasonable and capable. His # is 540-484-5555.

Pictures of E Grade

Posted by David Williamson on March 30, 2014, 6:52 pm, in reply to "Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade"

Doug sent me some pictures. The stock and for-end have been replaced. It could be fixed.

Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade

Posted by Douglas Precourt on March 30, 2014, 9:07 pm, in reply to "Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade"

Thank you Carl,
Appreciate your comments. You will find that 3 pictures have been added.
Doug

Re: Pictures of E Grade

Posted by Carl Erickson on March 31, 2014, 8:29 am, in reply to "Pictures of E Grade"

Douglas: Have the gun evaluated by a competent gunsmith for safety.Get the firing pin and top lever fixed and the stock checkered. Shoot the gun!Have fun! If you want you can have the barrel refinished. Come to the Southern SXS the end of April and show your gun off!

Re: Pictures of E Grade

Posted by Doug on April 3, 2014, 8:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Pictures of E Grade"

Thank you Carl. I will work on this project and post it when finished. I would love to come to the southern SxS, but will be attending a family event. Perhaps we will meet there next year.

Very best regards,
- Doug

Re: Pictures of E Grade

Posted by Doug Precourt on April 3, 2014, 10:04 pm, in reply to "Pictures of E Grade"

I believe you mentioned in one of your posts to me (which I now can't seem to find here) a recommendation for me to contact someone in Missouri about original Elsie parts (stock/fore-end, firing pin, etc.). Would you mind sharing his information with me again?

WENIG'S Gun Stocks

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on April 3, 2014, 10:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Pictures of E Grade"

Wenigs has some custom built L C Smith butt stock patterns. If you are right hand and shoot right handed you are in luck. Wenigs has a pattern for a L C Smith sidelock that is made to produce a butt stock with modern dimensions and cast off for a right handed shooter. The pattern that I am thinking of is for a hammerless LCS but that same pattern should work for a outside hammer LCS.

http://www.wenig.com/

Welcome to Wenig Custom Gunstocks! where the finest stockmakers in the industry are carrying on the long Benton County, Missouri tradition.‭ ‬

The largest staff in the industry, with hundreds of years of experience and an extensive wood selection under one roof, make this the preferred choice for customers from around the world.‭ ‬Restorations,‭ ‬hard to find patterns,‭ ‬pattern development,‭ ‬and custom fitting services utilized by the top competitive shooters in the country are just a few of our many provided services.‭ ‬Customers looking for exhibition quality wood will be delighted with our large selection from around the world.

to the top for Gary WENIG'S Gun Stocks

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on February 27, 2016, 6:59 am, in reply to "WENIG'S Gun Stocks"

Here are some of the postings on WENIGS.....Jent

Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade

Posted by Douglas Precourt on January 28, 2021, 11:22 pm, in reply to "Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade"

Hi David, several years ago (hard to believe it has been 6 or more years) I started this post regarding a gun that would become my first of four hammer gun projects. In your post to me above regarding the tang thumb lever, which is way to the left, you said that it is “most likely not the due to the spring but the slot in the top rib extension that is worn causing the top lever to the left”.
Since then I have refinished the stock, had it and for-end checkered, had a replacement ebony inser installed in the fore-end and the Damascus barrels black & white blued. Now I am ready to deal with the top lever. What would you recommend I do, if anything, to correct it?
Thanks again for all of your guidance.
- Doug

Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade

Posted by bill schodlatz on January 29, 2021, 7:18 pm, in reply to "Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade"

I find Weginig to be very expensive and without Fred running it they have no special knowledge.
I use Macon but I always supply the wood and talk to them a bunch. If they don't get lots of instruction they can wander to a place you may not want to go. Wood gradeing can be questionable.

bill

Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade

Posted by David Williamson on February 5, 2021, 9:10 am, in reply to "Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade"

Dug, sorry to get back to you so late but trying to recover from knee replacement and this is the first time since surgery using the computer.

You would want someone that is good a micro tig welding, only need a small area and then file to results.
There is a fellow that goes on to the Double Gun BBS, Steve Bertram (Colorado) bertramandco.com/
he does a lot of repairs and has a good following. He might not be too far from you.

Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade

Posted by Douglas Precourt on February 7, 2021, 8:21 am, in reply to "Re: L C Smith Hammer E Grade"

Thank you David I will look for him. So sorry to hear of your recent surgery. My mother had the same thing done a while ago and was amazed how much it reduced her pain, once she got passed the rehab process. Good luck and best wishes.
Warmest regards,
-Doug

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