The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

SBT Gun Data

Posted by Tom Breeden on January 10, 2014, 1:05 pm

A recent post concerning SBT gun stocks promped me to remind everyone on this site that I, on behalf of the LCSCA, am collecting more extensive data on SBT guns. The LCSCA records do not provide any gun information beyond serial number, grade, barrel length, start and finish dates. I am trying to flush out the SBT gun description by documenting the following features:
Serial number:
Grade:
Barrel length:
Type of rib: compensating with round rib posts
or solid rib with rectangular rib posts
Rib inlays: gold, silver or none near the breech
end
Type of stock: pistol, half pistol or straight
Shape of forend escutheon: banjo or rectangular
2-56 Screw: presence or absence of small non-
slotted end of screw near the forward right
side of trigger guard on trigger plate.

We have never inspected or documented a Whippet grade SBT gun although, according to LCSCA records, twelve were made and shipped to known destinations. The same is true for five Ideal grade SBT guns. We also have never documented a SBT gun with a Whitworth or Damacus barrel but are hesitant to say they don't exist.

The LC Smith ventilated rib first appeared on SBT guns in 1917 in the form of compensating ribs. They were changed to solid type ribs in late 1919. The first ventilated ribs appearing on double barrel guns was in 1925; there has never been a documented compensating rib reported on a double gun and it appears unlikely they were ever fitted with such since they were dropped six years before.

But in this business we never say "never" or "always"!

If you want to read more about SBT guns look under "Grades" on this site.

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Tom Breeden on January 10, 2014, 1:19 pm, in reply to "SBT Gun Data"

In my haste I forgot to include contact data:
tombreeden@aol.com
PO Box 7
Boyds MD 20841
301 972 1371

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Fred on July 24, 2014, 11:11 am, in reply to "SBT Gun Data"

I have recently acquired a SBT Eagle grade number S 14560 E as a 2 barrel set. Both number to the gun. One is 32" and one is 34". The ribs are solid w/rectangle and both have gold inlays. Both have banjo escutcheons in the forearms and it does have the screw by the trigger guard. I would be interested if any there is any information on date, if it came with both barrels. Enjoy your website very much. Thank you for all the valuable information.

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on July 24, 2014, 1:07 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

I suggest that you order a factory letter to obtain all of the factory production information about your shotgun. Many of the SBTs were shipped to individuals rather than hardware stores, and those names were recorded.

http://www.lcsmith.org/shotguns/researchdivision.html

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by John Chew on October 15, 2015, 7:30 pm, in reply to "SBT Gun Data"

Tom,

I assume you are still collecting data on SBTs. I just acquired the following:
Serial number: 190224
Grade: Specialty
Barrel length: 32
Type of rib: solid rib with rectangular rib posts
Rib inlays: silver
Type of stock: pistol with cheek piece(never seen one but heard they were out there)
Shape of forend escutheon: Banjo
2-56 Screw: present

There is an interesting story about this gun. I have been looking for a Specialty SBT for several years. I have been searching all the typical auction sites and use the standard gun search engines. When watching a boring Monday Night football game, I decided to search deep into Google search. Usually Google returns the "typical" sites on the first page or two. Most people don't go much much deeper than two pages. I don't. normally. This time I kept digging, mostly expired old sales. I kept going to page five! and there it was. I called immediately. I asked the seller how long it had been listed and was there any interest. " Been up for six weeks and you are the only caller." I bought it. I suspect that had this been on one of the typical sites that show in the first page or two it would have sold in a heart beat, and at a price a lot higher than what I paid.
I won't say I stole it but I feel that way. The moral to the story is that if the game is boring on Monday Night Football, dig deep in Google search. Amazing things can happen!

I am curious now how many SBTs were made with check pieces. All numbers on wood and metal match...it is original.

John

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by John Liles on October 16, 2015, 3:30 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Hello John, and congrats on a great find!
I sent you an email, did it make it through?
John

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Tom Breeden on October 16, 2015, 4:28 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Yes, I am still collecting info on SBT guns. Yours is the second gun that I have documented that falls in the year 1940 and for that matter there were only four, total, SBT guns made in that year, the other documented gun being a Monogram grade. It is also only the second SBT I have documented with a cheek piece; the other being a 1919 Specialty with a Monte Carlo stock as well as a cheek piece.

I hope your gun is in good shape.

Thank you very much for your input and I appreciate you bringing my 2014 invitation back to the top.

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Tom Breeden on October 16, 2015, 4:37 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

I forgot to add that you should obtain a factory letter as indicated on this site. As Jim has pointed out in a prior post, the SBTs were shipped to individuals more often than doubles and sometimes to well known trap shooters.

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Rfoger Domer on October 17, 2015, 1:43 pm, in reply to "SBT Gun Data"

Serial Number - S80002
Grade - Specialty
Barrel length - 34"
Type of Rib - Vented Compensating w/round rib posts
Rib inlay - One silver
Type of Stock - Pistol
Forend escutcheon - Banjo
Screw - Slotted end of screw

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Bill Murphy on October 20, 2015, 1:48 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

I would be glad to identify shooters who appear on L.C. Smith orders. My research material on old shooters goes way back.

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Roger Domer on October 31, 2015, 5:05 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Tom.....

This is a correction to the information that I gave to you on October 17, 2015.

The end of the screw by the trigger is not slotted on my SBT.

You clarified the other day that I was looking at the wrong place. Thank you. Roger Domer

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by John Chew on November 1, 2015, 9:11 am, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Bill,

Can you send me your email address. Jim S' letter provided some very interesting info on this SBT Specialty.

Thanks,

John

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by michael colihan on October 31, 2017, 3:53 pm, in reply to "SBT Gun Data"

Hello sir: I just bought a very nice LC Smith s/n S4048X. Pistol grip, 32 inch barrel rectangular posts on the rib, round forend iron, no trigger guard screw. I wold say 85 to 90% case colors nice, a Specialty grade. maybe the last one see recent post. I really like it will shoot tomorrow PM. Only thing messed with is the Pachmayr recoil pad. Maybe yoy could tell me what the orig pad would be and what the orig stock finish is. Looks too good to be 70 years old but who knows?

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Tom Breeden on October 31, 2017, 7:03 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

I answered your other post and I'll add your info to my list. Is there a precious metal inlay (gold or silver or none) between the vent rib and the rib extension near the breech end? By 'round forend iron' do you mean banjo shape or rectangular with rounded corners?

If made in the 20's there were several different pads that could have been provided but none are currently made except one. A reproduction of the Hawkins Model 25 with heart shape cutouts is currently available from Galazan. However, there is some difficulty in mounting the pad on small stocks. The best bet is to try to find an original one on eBay or similar sites. If made in the 40's the buyer would probably order a white line Pachmayr which I would hastily discard. If you can't find an original I could live with a Pachmayr black Old English pad but maybe others couldn't. The finish on lower grade guns such as a Specialty was usually lacquer and rubbed oil on higher grades.

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Don Morgan on November 16, 2017, 5:42 pm, in reply to "SBT Gun Data"

I read Tom Breedens statement on compensating ribs on sxs i have a 1913 specialty grade sn 2158xx 2 barrel set the second set is a 32 vr with round post .They are specialty grade sn to the gun and marked with a 2 with forearm , I cannot find an after market name on rib ,also top barrel rib that post are mounted on are flat and appears to be the same top rib that is on my 1929 vr skeet special with rectangular post I have not seen another lc with round post to compare it so i cant say if it is a compensating rib or not ,but think if it was an aftermarket rib it would still have a concave top rib would appreciate any input or comments Thank You Don Morgan

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Tom Breeden on November 17, 2017, 9:21 am, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Hello Don:

The ventilated rib was introduced on SxS guns around 1925-26 so it is doubtful but not impossible that your barrels are original to the gun. I can't explain with certainty how the barrels got on your gun with all matching numbers. My best guess is that it is a factory rebarrel.

If you look at the underside of the rib with round posts you should see short length dove tail cuts in the rib where the round post joins the rib. If the cuts are present then it would truly be a compensating rib as the cuts allowed movement of the rib fore and aft as the barrel temperatures changed. If the cuts are present then my guess of a factory rebarrel would be reinforced as I doubt an after market set of barrels would go to so much bother.

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Don Morgan on November 17, 2017, 6:02 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Tom thank you for your reply, i always thought the gun went back to Hunter Arms in 1925 or after for the second set of barrels ,and the only guns i have personally seen or own are 1929 or newer with rectangular post.the set i have the underside of the rib is dovetailed but it is dovetailed. the full length of the rib and the dovetail is visible from the muzzle end,but is not overlaid on a concave rib .If it was an aftermarket rib they would have to remove the top rib and relay a flat top rib and put the vr on not saying that that wasn"t done seems it would have been more expensive than a barrel from Hunter Arms Guess there really no answer unless someone has knowledge of vr designed this way .Hopefully I can attend one of your shoots and bring it with me until then Thank You for your reply looking forward to other opinions Don Morgan

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Tom Breeden on November 18, 2017, 8:50 am, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

I think your are correct in believing that no after market company would go to the trouble of removing a rib and soldering on a new one. That means that Hunter Arms probably provided the rib and in their haste channeled a dove tail the full length of the rib. I further speculate that the owner of the gun at the time the second barrel was ordered was a trap shooter because a casual shooter or hunter would not care that much about the rib. I urge you to contact Jim Stubbendieck about the gun to determine if there is any more info. Understand that guns returned to the factory for second barrels are rarely noted in the records but we are looking to see if there is an individual identified. At any rate if my speculation is correct you MAY have the only recorded SxS with a compensating ventilated rib

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by John Chew on November 14, 2020, 3:59 pm, in reply to "SBT Gun Data"

Tom,

Do you have SBT10688 in your data base? I have just acquired this 1919 SBT Specialty that was lettered from Jim 11/17. I don't know if you automatically get the info from Jim. If you don't have it listed I'll send you the data. It has the round post compensating rib with round posts and I think it may be the last or one of the last made with this rib.

John

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Bill Schodlatz on November 14, 2020, 7:48 pm, in reply to "SBT Gun Data"

SN 598 Speciality, 32 inch bbl with silver inlay, round posts, straight stock , 2-56? size, screw protudeing fromfloor plate next to the right side of trigger guard. rorend inlay- banjo, hand filling beaver tail, (bigger than Fox or Parker)
great trigger and shoots OMG tight

bill schodlatz

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Tom Breeden on November 15, 2020, 9:02 am, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Hi John

Good to hear from you. I do not have that gun listed but I have 10687S in my records as a 34 inch Specialty with straight stock and banjo escutcheon. I don't know where the info came from and that is all I have on that gun. I have two compensated rib guns with higher serial numbers than yours; they are both Specialty's 13344 and S14062. There may be others. I welcome data on your gun and I hope it is in good shape

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Tom Breeden on November 15, 2020, 9:16 am, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Hello Bill

Thank you for your input. There is not much info available on these early three digit serial number guns so I appreciate your description. Sometimes a letter 'S' appears as part of the serial number; does yours have one? Of the little info I have on the early guns yours seems to be a 'standard' configuration.

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by Tom Breeden on November 15, 2020, 7:35 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Roger Domer: Could you check the serial number and rib of your Specialty listed above as S/N S80002 with compensating vent rib with round posts? The serial number places it in 1925 well after we thought compensating ribs ended in 1919. I must have had a bad day when I recorded that gun five years ago.

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Re: SBT Gun Data

Posted by bill schodloatz on November 15, 2020, 8:01 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

There is no letter in the serial number, just 3 numbers.

bill

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Re: SBT Gun Data 10688

Posted by John Chew on November 16, 2020, 10:32 am, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Tom:
Serial number: 10688
Grade: Specialty
Barrel length: 32
Type of rib: compensating with round rib posts
Rib inlays: silver
Type of stock: Unfortunately Aftermarket- full pistol with full beavertail
Shape of forend escutcheon: banjo
2-56 Screw: non-slotted

The metal on this gun is excellent and tight as a tick. I bought this gun to shoot routinely and to backup my other shooter, and it fits me perfectly as does my other shooter. Both shooters have aftermarket stocks. Since I have to modify them slightly to fit me I don't mind doing that to an aftermarket stock. The fit and finish is excellent but obviously not original. Both have upgraded wood and checkering but no serial numbers on wood. My collector grade SBT with the shadow cut cheek piece (1 of three ever made) does not fit me and I won't dare modify it.

John

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S# S80002

Posted by Roger Domer on November 16, 2020, 1:49 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

Hi Tom
I sold this shotgun & replaced it with the one you sold me. It didn’t fit as well as I thought it should. The one you sold me fits me perfectly. I’ll email you with specific contact information of the purchaser. RLD 😃

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Locking this long thread

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on November 16, 2020, 2:13 pm, in reply to "Re: SBT Gun Data"

I am locking this long thread. Please feel free to start another on the same subject.

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