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George & Martha Palmer

Posted by John Bennett on 7/6/2018, 10:37 am

Good Morning,

George & Martha Palmer are recorded in the 1841 & 1851 Census living in St Marylebone, Middx. The 1851 Census records their births as 1781 in Exeter. George records his occupation as 'Smith'.

I have found birth records for 3 of their children, John, Martha & Samuel in 1812, 1815 & 1821 respectively in Exeter parish records. In each case George's occupation is recorded as 'Whitesmith'.
I have been unable to find an obvious birth record for a 4th child, Fanny, but she is recorded in the 1851 Census as a married daughter born in Exeter in 1821, with the married name 'de Boand'.

I have searched the Ancestry & FMP records for any marriages of George Palmer and a Martha and have found only 2. One is in Frome, Somerset in 1804 featuring a Martha Dyer and the second in St Marylebone, Middx. in 1811 with a bride, Mary Gould.
The second marriage seems more likely as it is about 18 months prior to the birth of the first son John in Oct. 1812. It is relevant also that many of the family members lived in St Marylebone in subsequent decades.In fact in 1851, George & Martha lived in the same Alsopp Mews, Marylebone as their son John & family. John also worked as a 'Whitesmith'.

I have found a parish birth record for a Mary Gould in 1781 in Axminster, not Exeter, but this anomaly could be due to an enumeration error in the 1851 Census.

If the 1811 marriage record is for the George & Martha in question, why did they return to Exeter for the period of the birth of the 4 children and then return to St Marylebone?

A second puzzle relates to the daughter Fanny born in 1821 in Exeter. Her married name of 'de Boand' has been searched for in the records of DFHS, FMP & Ancestry, but not one occurrence has been found. It is possible that Fanny had married a Frenchman or Belgian and then had left England after 1851.

I would be extremely grateful to receive any information which any other member may have uncovered relating to this family and which may confirm, or otherwise, my assumptions.

Regards,

John Bennett

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Sally Topliss on 7/6/2018, 2:31 pm, in reply to "George & Martha Palmer"

I have checked the 1811 marriage and it states a Martha Gould not Mary as you have mentioned. Was this just a typo on your part? It also states that George Palmer was a widower at time of marriage.
Could not find a baptism for a Martha Gould 1781 Exeter.
Sally

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Judith on 7/6/2018, 3:38 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Did they have a son George?
I found a George Deboard PARMER baptised St OlaveExeter son of George and Martha 1805.
If That is the case, perhaps Fanny is wife of the son and they put down the middle name of son and did not put the Parmer/Palmer surname on the 1851 census.
Will look for a George married to a Fanny on census'

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by John Bennett on 8/6/2018, 9:10 am, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Many thanks Sally, Judith & Deborah,

You have provided several useful leads to follow up.
Yes, my reference to Mary was a typo! It should have been Martha.
Incidentally, if the George Deboard Parmer baptism is valid, it would throw doubt onto my theory that Martha and George married in Marylebone in 1811.

Regards,

John Bennett

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Deborah O'Brien on 8/6/2018, 1:20 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Following on from Sally's find: marriage between Elizabeth Palmer Debord (sic) and Robert Faremouth Trist, 04.07.1835.
In 1861 Robert & Elizabeth were living in Cornwall with 3 children. Elizabeth was said to be aged 51 born Exeter (ca 1810)

According to the GRO, all 3 children's mother's maiden name was PALMER - again pointing to DEBO(A)RD and PALMER being interchangeable.

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Judith on 8/6/2018, 6:44 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Have you found death cert for Martha or George?Who was informant? might have been a family member.

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Judith on 8/6/2018, 6:54 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Elizabeth Palmer daughter of George and Martha baptised Non Conformist, Bow |Mint meeting house Exeter, born 1807 baptised 1808. Also a John baptised Exeter 1812 and Martha 1815

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Judith on 8/6/2018, 7:06 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Have you tried national archives site? Francis William Deboard is on H.M.S. Gladiator in 1850 has a wife Jane, he is a ships armourer, also a William Deboard 1846/7with a mother Martha, both allotting money for spouse/wife.
Try various spellings on National archives as it might throw up something.

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Judith on 8/6/2018, 7:12 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

P.S.William Deboard (ships bosun) giving his mothers name as Martha Palmer

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Judith on 8/6/2018, 7:56 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Perhaps Martha was a widow/single mother when she married George Palmer?
William Deboard on census with Fanny 55 in 1871 living Cavendish square Marylebone. Perhaps she was the one with George and Martha in 1851 with age a bit out? William on H.M.S.OSBORNE IN 1861 leading stoker.
worth looking on findmypast for details of allotments etc might have more info there.

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Sally Topliss on 7/6/2018, 4:53 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

There is also a marriage between Elizabeth Palmer Debord (sic) and Robert Faremouth Trist, 04.07.1835. St. John in the City and County of Exeter.

Sally

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Deborah O'Brien on 10/6/2018, 7:50 am, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

This thread has me fascinated. (Or maybe I have too much time on my hands :-)) Anyhow, a John DEBOARD married by banns an Elizabeth PALMER 22 Aug 1774 St Andrew, Holborn..... clue or red herring?

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Judith on 10/6/2018, 8:39 am, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

I agree, fascinating, needs some detective work!! The name is not that common, so has to be a connection somewhere.
Perhaps they are the parents of George, as we have the marriage of Elizabeth Palmer Debord and Robert Trist in 1835. I have an example in our family where someone was given the full name of her great grandmother as her second and third middle names. she hated it, but it proved very useful in tracing the family tree.
Sometimes a name was kept in the family if there was hope of an inheritance, and it was proof of a connection.

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by John Bennett on 10/6/2018, 4:10 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Many thanks again Judith and Deborah for your further comments. Like you I have found this a fascinating problem. These characters are only very distant players in my vast collection of ancestors, but I couldn't resist the challenge.
I am convinced now that Fanny is not the daughter of George and Martha. She is more likely to be a grand daughter in law or something similar.
I am beginning to suspect that Francis Wm. Deboard is the son of George Deboard Parmer(sic) who dropped the Palmer/Parmer part of his name. Incidentally did you note that Francis Wm. and Fanny's address on the 1849 marriage record shows them both living at 11 Palmer's Passage.
The hunt continues!

Regards,

John

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by judith on 10/6/2018, 4:58 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

I think Fanny is wife of George de Board Paarmer/Palmer, she cant be wife of Francis William as he was allotting money to his wife Jane, and William Deboard was allotting money to his mother Martha Palmer in 1846/7 by 1861 was married, might have been allotting money to wife after that.
Have you looked at the allotments and stuff on National archives? Use various spellings of the names. Good luck.

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Deborah O'Brien on 10/6/2018, 6:14 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

But the marriage record shows she married:
Francis William DEBOARD, a smith, married Frances Fanny LAND in 1849. Father of Francis William was George DEBOARD, a smith. The couple is shown living in Marylebone in 1871.

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Judith on 11/6/2018, 8:56 am, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Perhaps she was known as Jane?

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by John Bennett on 11/6/2018, 1:47 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

I am quite convinced that the Frances Fanny Land who married Francis Wm. Deboard in Westminster in 1849 is the same Fanny living with George and Martha Palmer in Allsop Mews, Marylebone in the 1851 census. In both records her occupation is quoted as 'shoe binder'. She also appears with her father William, a shoemaker, in the 1841 census in Exeter. Her father is still in Exeter in 1851 with occupation shoemaker.
Frances Deboard is also recorded in the 1861 census living in Portsea, a very likely location for a seaman's wife.
In addition to Francis and Frances recorded as living together in Marylebone in 1871, I have found the widowed Frances in 1881 in Marykebone Lane.
I believe that Francis William died in Q1/1880 in Marylebone and Frances died in Fulham Q1/1897.

You will no doubt have noticed that Francis Wm. had an earlier marriage to Grace Elizabeth Crawford Townsend in Stepney in 1842. I think that wife Elizabeth Deboard died in June 1844 in South Hackney. If these assumptions are correct Francis William was not a bachelor at the time of his marriage to Frances Fanny in 1849.

None of these details help to establish a plausible link between Francis William Deboard and George Palmer, although logic implies that one exists.

Regards,

John

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Deborah O'Brien on 7/6/2018, 6:25 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Looks like this may be a case of an alias DEBOARD also known as PALMER.

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by Deborah O'Brien on 7/6/2018, 4:07 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

Francis William DEBOARD, a smith, married Frances Fanny LAND in 1849. Father of Francis William was George DEBOARD, a smith. The couple is shown living in Marylebone in 1871.

Re: George & Martha Palmer

Posted by George Collings on 22/6/2018, 10:12 pm, in reply to "Re: George & Martha Palmer"

For information a whitesmith was a worker in tinplate. The polish powder they used in finishing was white and so were their workclothes.

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