The SteelNavy.Com Message Board: Re: Ooo-oooo!

Ralph: Thank you for all your effort. I now have enough information to proceed with the painting. I tried to email you but my email kept bouncing your adx. My client will be disappointed that only the bow and conning tower of U29 was above water. I fear this might call for little 'artistic license'. Thanks again. Wayne

Previous Message

I went back to review my sources. Today's search just yielded one not provided last night. It is unforunately paywall protected. Those will often let a Google searcher in, but won't allow linking.

This paragraph:

"On March 18 came one of the greatest 0 the English victories over the German submarines. At 12:28 p.m. in the North Sea H.M.S. Dreadnought (17,900 tons) sighted a periscope about a mile off the port bow. She at once proceeded at full speed of 17.5 knots to ram the periscope, which seemed to be moving away. It was thought that the submarine was attempting to complete an attack on another line of ships and remained too long at periscope depth; it is also true that there was a certain slowness in diving, peculiar to boats of the U-28 to 30 class. At 12:35 dreadnought rammed the submarine amid- ships on the starboard quarter. Her bows came up at an angle of 60 degrees and then nothing could be seen but some wreckage and an oil patch. There were no survivors, but the number U-29 was observed painted large on the bows. Her commander was Otto von Weddigen, one of the most successful of the German captains, who had sunk four cruisers."

Came from this source:

Sub Menu
Known Sunk—German Submarine War Losses, 1914-1918
By Robert M. Grant
January 1938
Proceedings
Vol. 64/1/419

That is the USNI Proceedings. If you find it with Google, you should be allowed access to it as a free sample.

"As I deduced" (LOL. It was a plain blind lucky guess) this says she was rammed on the starboard side. I don't know the author's source for his info, but there is more on that log book page which I can't enlarge enough to read, and I suspect it might have come from there.

Previous Message

Thursday, March 18th, 1915. Blasted typo.

Previous Message

So, online, I only found "fewer than 10" sources on the attack itself, and one of them was Wikipedia. Pouring over things, I found some information wrong, other info questionable. (For example, some accounts claim U29 breached the surface. The logbook only mentions periscope sighted, not any breaching.)

The best source I found was this:

https://lostinwatersdeep.co.uk/sm-u-29.html

Not only is there the info in this article itself, but this item showed me a good photo of U29 and that Dreadnought's logbook is available.

I made an attempt to find that logbook more completely online. I found this:

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-navy-ships-voyages-log-books/

You should contact the archive service. They can help you.

From this article, I stumbled onto something else:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-11532534

A weather survey done from 2010 to 2012 from ship's logs. I got excited, and pursued this, but it "turned into a bust." The ships chosen were specifically chosen due to their "exotic" locations. "Weather in the area around the UK was already well documented." Aha, lightbulb moment. A) Ship's logs have weather info. The more reason to contact the archives looking for Dreadnought's logbook info. B) I should be looking for the weather around the UK since it was "so well documented."

Indeed it was! They've put a ton of stuff online! I found this:

https://digital.nmla.metoffice.gov.uk/SO_8e7628da-888b-4cf5-8cc3-91d3b5b77571/

Weather for 1915, month by month.

This is the month of March, 1915. The link will put you on page 76, which was what I was on when I copied the link :

https://digital.nmla.metoffice.gov.uk/IO_13750a71-636d-4508-b2c7-42a53253c83a/

You will want to examine from about page 73 for a good five pages or so. Note that the date in the top right corner of each page is the date the page was filled in. Also note that the actual info filled in on any given page with any given date could be the info for that date, the info for the previous day, or a forecast for the next day. So, just because the page says, "Thursday, March 15, 1915" in the upper right does not necessarily mean you are getting that date's weather. You must study the actual page to find out if it is the day's readings, a forecast ahead, or "catching up from the previous days' readings."

What I studied last night was just the above mentioned pages, and for info local to Scotland. What I never got to was looking at other weather readings. I noticed they do have some info for "the continent." That could be useful for helping to "interpolate" what was going on in the North Sea between the continent and Scotland, where the action actually happened. Still, from the regional maps provided, it looks like the gale and high wind from the North was extensive enough that it is probably what the weather was locally...certainly "generally" what it was.

The location of the ramming is given by one source as: 58°20'N, 0°57'E. I am not certain of the reliabity of the source. Nonetheless, it is all I have. Google maps puts it surprisingly far out into the North Sea. The accounts state "off Pentland Firth," making it seem closer to that. This location is "way" off Pentland Firth!

I now feel I have less to discuss with you. Still, if you wanted to talk, I would be happy to. There are still things not covered.

Previous Message

If you would email me off board at:
ralphwood64(at)gmail(dot)com

I would like to arrange to exchange phone numbers, and either I call you, or you call me. It is easier for me to talk about what I have found than type it out. I see myself typing for hours. Talking would be more effective.

I started searching yesterday evening, and what I got was just tantalizing enough to keep me at it until bed time. Things became apparent in stages...there is no one "great single source" (except for the weather.) And I still lack much. Much of what I have is conjecture based on what facts I do know.

Here's what I have, but it is all "conditional," and these conditions are where verbal explanation will save me hours of typing:

The British fleet was in the North Sea, heading back to base in Scotland. That made the "general heading" to be "West"...possibly slightly Southwest. However, they were possibly zig-zagging. Still, the overall base course was "West."

That then puts the sub "to the South," since she was sighted off Dreadnought's port bow, and if you are heading generally West, your port side is generally South. U29 was attacking HMS Neptune when sighted by Dreadnought. That orients her basically North...if she is to the South and attacking, she must be facing basically North. Since subs did not usually attack at 90 degree angles, she should have been leading them, orienting her more Northwesterly. So, from this, if you have a Northwesterly facing uboat attacking Westerly heading ships, and the uboat is seen off the port bow of the ramming ship, the most likely probability is to have rammed the uboat's starboard side. See the conjecture involved?

Dreadnought was traveling at 17.5 knots.

The wind was from the North. A gale was blowing. The temperature was in the mid-30s Farenheit. The sky was pretty gray. The sea state was "rough"...possibly Sea State 3. There was intermittent precipitation...spitting snow or rain.

Looks awesome, right? "Not so fast, please." This is "regional" weather, not localized. The source is weather stations in Scotland.

I really, really need to go over this with you. I will give you sources so you can reach your own conclusions.

Please email me. Thank you.

Previous Message

I have recently received a commission to paint the Dreadnought ramming the U29. All I have been able to locate is one painting of the incident. But I would rather confirm the sky and sea state when the incident to place. Anyone have any ideas, beyond internet searches, as to where I might get this and details of the ramming? I do not even have positive information on which side the U29 was stuck. Nor do I have any information on the location of HMS Temeraire which was apparently maneuvering to try and ram U29 was well? Any help is much appreciated.

Thank you for all your effort