GraniteCityGossip

Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Stephen Adler <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Stephen+Adler' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 9, 2019, 7:06 pm

https://www.kmov.com/news/metro-east-sanitary-district-suing-granite-city-for-paving-over/article_bb4e5e80-1ade-11ea-a987-cb2031513317.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=user-share

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 9, 2019, 7:17 pm, in reply to "Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

Somehow i dont think the same people that love finger pointing are going to be all that receptive at having fingers pointed back at them. Mayor Ed and his loyal peeps are probably in the basement now, in Adam Schitt formation figuring out the next angle to take.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Dave Williams <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Dave+Williams' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 9, 2019, 7:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

Hagnauer probably wants to avoid another Elliott Davis disaster from a few years back. He absolutely embarrassed himself in that interview. That was where the layman discovered how dumb Hagnauer really was.

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits. -Thomas Jefferson

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 9, 2019, 7:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

Hagnauer isnt the only one that looked bad during that bullying fiasco. The ones that should have been putting a stop to the nonsense were more concerned with finding out who brought attention to the matter and ultimately to them. I actually think with that particular incident that Mayor Ed could only have done so much.
I dont know how smart Mayor Ed is or isnt, but he has to have people around him that are guiding him. Im sure someone in the party will be kind enough to give him a few talking points and he will be told not to deviate from them. Thats really nothing new i woudlnt think in small town politics.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Hard Core <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Hard+Core' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 12:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

From the Mayor of the village of Pontoon Beach...

"Pontoon residents; lately I have seen posts and news paper articles on how MESD saved Pontoon from flooding because they lowered the levels at Horseshoe lake and the same with Granite City. And now these law suits with Granite City from MESD about the recent flood in GC. Horseshoe lake takes all the water from Granite City and Pontoon Beach then it gets dumped into Cahokia Creek that flows to the East St. Louis pumping station. When the Mississippi River is low it simply gravity flows into the river. When the river is at flood stage the water has to be pumped over the levy with the availability of 4 pumps. Now these pump are huge and I was told that with all 4 running they could drain Horseshoe lake. In 2015, when Pontoon Beach was flooded for weeks, we believe not all these pumps were active however that is water under the bridge, no pun intended! You have to ask yourself were these pumps running at the first drop of rain that morning GC flooded? They should have been in my opinion. After the 2015 flood, which basically drove long lake out of its banks the Village needed to try and do something. Keep in mind that long lake is a private lake. Everybody that lives on the lake owns a part of it so the Village cannot go on private property and do any work with tax payers dollars. What the Village did was borrow over a half million dollars to install a 54” conduit from long lake across 162 to basically get the water out of long lake faster and install a new box culvert across Old Edwardsville road. The old box culvert which was an old boiler was installed by MESD back in the 40s and should have been their responsibility to replace it but they declined so the Village took on the cost. The new system seems to be working good. That cost was huge for the Village. The Village has to pay that money back at 70K for the next 6-7 years out of our motor fuel tax. Not one time did MESD mention that. Not one time did they mention the Village doing their part. All they are trying to do is take credit for lowering a lake which in my opinion does nothing but make the hunters and fisherman mad and then they told the employees at the lake to just call the Mayor of Pontoon and Granite City if there are complaints about the level of the lake. This was not our decision at all and should be the decision of the IDNR but seems that MESD is making the decision now. Also everybody that lives in the bottoms pay taxes into MESD for our water. During large rains we get all the water from the bluffs meaning, Edwardsville, Collinsville, Glen Carbon, Maryville, etc. All of their water flows down Cahokia creek. When the water gets to Horseshoe Lake there are 2 valves that let our water out. During these large rains those valves cannot be opened fully because it will flood the pump house in East St. Louis because all the water coming off of the bluffs is coming down at such a force that we basically trickle out until that water is gone. That is a fact. Now here is the complaint. All of those cities that send their water down that creek pay nothing into MESD. We pay for it all and we are the ones getting flooded. I once talked to the Chairman of the county about possibly a small tax from these communities to help pay for all of their water. Makes since to me. With that extra revenue we could build more pump houses and retention lakes. He did not want no part of it. Basically no one cares about the bottoms. I tell people this; Imagine sitting in Lowes parking lot in Glen Carbon on a afternoon and a huge storm rolls in. All of that water coming off the parking lots and gutters in that area all go to Cahokia Creek and down to the bottoms. Maybe the county could buy up some farm fields for a large retention lake to hold off this water until our water is out. I mean we pay for that service. Talking to the Army Corp, our area is the 2nd largest water shed North of New Orleans! That is a lot. Now this is not a slam at anybody, especially the municipalities I have mentioned. This is to let you know that MESD is trying to take credit for Pontoon Beach without giving any credit to this awesome board of trustees. No credit to the Village of Pontoon Beach at all. Politics I guess. We would never take credit for something we did not do. I’m just tired of seeing all these posts and articles on how MESD is the savior of all water problems. We live in a flood plain. We will have flooding at times. The Village of Pontoon Beach is working on their water problems with no money from MESD. I always here how they do this and that. Well it’s their job. They should be doing this and that without wanting a pat on the back every time. Just wanting to set the record straight. We have walked these levies and we have sandbagged in our communities and have cleaned debris from our grates and have rescued many residents and animals from our town during the 2015 flood. We the Village have done that. Next time you hear someone say we saved Pontoon because we lowered the lake, think back at this post."

Sometimes Truth Hurts

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 4:03 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

Everyone wants to be recognized and if all of this is true, Pontoon Beach may be owed the most thanks of all. I know of the mayor and others rescuing peoples pets during that flood and that is the kind of thing that you dont need to be an engineer to understand and appreciate. It was real, they were floating around in rafts and little fishing boats. If they wouldnt have done anything else, that alone would have stood out for me, because it showed a considerable kindness. That was going above and beyond what could be expected in anybodies book and animal lovers like me will never forget that.
I think with MESD being under attack and everyone pointing fingers at each other that some people probably have forgot that no one person has waved a magic wand and made the issue go away. Everyone should credit each others sacrifices in dealing with an issue like this, but that wont happen because we need to pin this on somebody. When you really think about it, this whole episode is so childish, but i get it people are dug in and thats just the way its going to be. You did it, no you did it 20 years ago, the wrong person is heading MESD, my uncle could do better, no, my dad could, you forgot to cut the grass, no this valve wasnt turned on, that pump broke down, we dont have any money, it was a really really hard rain..... BLA BLA BLA. When enough people decide that dealing with the situation is more important than passing blame, or even taking credit maybe things will get considerably better. But i understand thats just stupid talk, because it will never happen. The players may change, but the nonsense never will.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 6:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

First, I commend the mayor of Pontoon Beach for coming on and posting what his village has done. I think that's great. I also commend them for the assistance they gave their residents back in 2015. I remember seeing pictures of that mayor going door to door in the trailer park and helping people get out to safety. That's a leader.

The new lawsuit perplexes me. The picture shown with the headline, "Granite City paves over their sewers" is a bid misleading. Does it look like some of the openings are reduced in size after the street was paved? Yes. Did this happen all over town? Not in my neighborhood. Was water still getting to the ditch? It appeared so by the overflowing banks.

So it would not appear that they "paved over the sewer". The reduced area for water to flow into the catch basin would seem to cause some of the back up in the streets.

I go back to the Pontoon Mayor mentioning the "pumps" and seemingly questioning were the pumps on while the waters fell that day? I guess the lawsuits will clear it all up.

Again, the people out in the village should be happy that their mayor explains things to them in layman's terms.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 6:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

The lawsuits whoever wins will prove who has the best attorneys and who has the best connections on the in side. To me this is a stupid way to settle this and it wouldnt be happening at all if the head of the previous MESD was still in that position. Does anyone doubt that for even one second?? This is where i think Mr. Adler may be underestimating the lengths that those that oppose him will go to in order to be rid of him. Its like a football game and hes simply on the wrong damn team. This is only going to get uglier, and people will dig in on both sides. In the end one side can stick their chests out and the other side can yap they were jobbed, and both of them will probably to some extent be correct.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Riverbender <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Riverbender' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 6:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

A well thought out post is well appreciated here. One thing though being the people on the bluffs chose to live there and not in the American Bottoms why should they be obligated to be responsible for any costs or results that happen there?
I would say in general that housing prices on the bluff are higher then they are in the bottoms because there are reasons.
The moral to all of this means choose to live in a flood plain and suffer the consequences not, instead blame those that chose to live elsewhere.
None the less I think you have done a great job an should be applauded for your corrective measures to a bad situation and once again thanks for your post that puts things factually into perspective.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 6:29 pm, in reply to "Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Thanks River, i was thinking, hell ya, let them other people pay some of the costs too, but then you had to post what you did. It makes perfect sense, well until i see the next comment on the subject anyway.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 8:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

Wally, either way, we the taxpayers will foot the bill through an increased tax.

As for Mr. Adler, he's appointed by the county board chair so he realizes that his time is limited to four years at a time.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 8:16 pm, in reply to "Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

River, the problem is Glen Carbon and Edwardsville continue to add new roadway and parking lot and all of those shed their water here.

Why shouldn't they have to pay for some of the runoff?

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 8:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Wally, you have to remember that much of what is now developed properties with hard surfaces was once farmland and fields in Eville. Their development is adding to our problem. Not so much the residences but the commercial. How about a special tax on commercial? They can afford it.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Stephen Adler <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Stephen+Adler' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 8:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

Some, but by no means all, of this narrative is true.

If the level of Horseshoe Lake is too high, it doesn't matter what size conduit was added by anyone; water still drains from high to low. In order to drain any area, one must ensure that a differential exists between the bodies. The larger the differential, the faster the transfer.

In 2017 much work was done by MESD in Elm Slough to clear the overland path Long Lake uses to discharge it's excess water into Horseshoe Lake. That, with MESD pump repairs, improvements funded by Pontoon Beach and vigilance on maintaining Lake levels all worked to improve things on Long Lake. The most important of these was increasing the differential between the bodies of water; so successful, a perverse and unfortunate form of success presented itself... communities that previously were underwater were not, and communities that had interior infrastructure problems (Granite City) stood out. In the old days, everyone would be underwater together.

Lasting improvement to these communities will
slowly disappear as both Horseshoe Lake and Long Lake silt in, and Long Lake in particular, needs a $5M project to link the bodies of water down Lake Drive. As these bodies silt, more and more water runs off rather than stored. Horseshoe is in silted condition, but will still store over 1 billion gallons of water short term if necessary.

The path to solvency for MESD was hard, and our success was to the credit of many good employees working together. Yes, the bluff communities contribute little or nothing to dispose of the storm water they send us, but the real reason MESD was insolvent was in St.Clair County. Since 1977, the property values have crashed 80%. It was vital that we trimmed expenses, and we did that; however, the most compelling statistic is that today, Madison County taxpayers pay 80 cents of every tax dollar spent at MESD. (sic) The amount of tax dollars sent annually does not even cover the electricity spent in St. Clair County. High tax rates, irresponsible elected officials and TIF districts are to blame, but disadvantaged residents did not create those problems.

I understand the issues revolving around flooding in the American Bottoms and indeed have a great team whom only needed direction to achieve the success we have seen at MESD. There are historical reasons why we are here now, and to remain habitable, we need to pay close attention to the systems that allow us to do so. Interior drainage must be maintained just as the levees protect us.

If anyone wishes to discuss any of these issues or different ways to improve this areas drainage, please contact me; this is an anonymous dialogue, really...the freest form of speech if we think about it. I would be happy to talk confidentially if it would move progress forward. We have too many challenges for such a talented group to ignore. S

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 8:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Opie, im not so sure, maybe, no, i dont know. You have to admit though that the "they can afford it line" isnt very conservative sounding. Arent enough businesses fleeing this state already? Count me as a definite maybe on that tax.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by JM <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=JM' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 9:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

"The picture shown with the headline, "Granite City paves over their sewers" is a bid misleading. Does it look like some of the openings are reduced in size after the street was paved? Yes. Did this happen all over town? Not in my neighborhood. Was water still getting to the ditch? It appeared so by the overflowing banks."

I wonder if trying to convince people that tall grass in a ditch would hold back the water flow would be just as misleading, or better yet, absurd.

Everyone remembers the images of manning pumps, and boating people and animals out of the trailer parks during the flood a few years ago. Everyone remembers the Mayor and his administration's efforts to keep everyone as dry and safe as possible under the circumstances. I find it very surprising that anyone, especially the mayor would find it important or necessary to address the public over this issue wanting more recognition or accolades. I'm not reading any where that any particular person is trying to "take credit" away from anyone. It seems obvious that Horseshoe lake levels have to be maintained in order to accommodate water run off to help prevent flooding, period. Large or small, new or old culvert, the water has to have some place to go, and the level of Horseshoe lake being low enough, is what allows this water to flow.

All of this finger pointing is embarrassing and disappointing. Who knows if the pumps mentioned above were turned on in a timely manner, my guess only the workers involved can answer that. If they find that they were not, hopefully all responsible will have to answer to that.

Hopefully the buffoons responsible for paving over the storm drains in the city will be held accountable, and more than that, those higher ups that were aware of the problem and turned a blind eye to it, will be held even more accountable.

It's a shame that politics play such a huge role in this issue, but it's Madison County and it's been this way for years and I don't see it changing any time soon.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 9:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

Pontoon Beaches efforts would still be helpful as flood waters began receding. People want to think they are a part of a solution and that they are making a difference, even if it may not be to the degree that they would like. Thats a lot of money that has been put up by the village. I believe at the meeting at Pontoon Beach after the big flood they called it doing what we can do, tinkering around the edges. The added pump at Mallard Lake was i suppose another tinker, and it probably helps also during various stages of the water receding.
Everyone has an opinion on this, even if we dont know anything, because to some extent we have all lived it. In reality i doubt 1% of the population really knows what the hell they are talking about, regarding this issue. Some may know a little bit, but certainly not enough to point fingers and assign blame. I doubt i could keep my dogs plastic kiddie pool from flooding in the back yard when it rains, but i know a railroad job when i see one. Like it or not Adler knows more about this than anyone else on here, and that is a real issue for some.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2019, 9:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

JM, you are a genius.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by poor ol elroy <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=poor+ol+elroy' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2019, 5:41 am, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

I personally know both the mayor and Mr. Adler, and i feel both are trying to do the best with what we have to work with to reach a common goal.
Most of us dont have a clue about the workings of the American bottoms, and its importance. Mr. Adlers office has a map on the wall that shows the importance of the MESD, and the effect it can have on our lives. Its high time we put aside personal views regarding politics to reach a common goal of staying dry.
This war has to stop now, i want all inquiries made, but no acts of vengance at this time. (Don Corleone). We all have got to do better at respecting each other to reach the common goal. How am i going to enjoy my time at the cigar bar in florida if I have to worry about all you underlings back here? im gonna start with a nap...

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by poor ol elroy <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=poor+ol+elroy' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2019, 5:43 am, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

Notice i said common goal three times? hope so...

Remember the 3 pigs story from childhood?

Posted by Riverbender <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Riverbender' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2019, 6:34 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

One pig built his house out of straw, one out of sticks and the last pig built his of brick. The big bad wolf was able to blow the houses down of the first two pigs but the brick house stood its own. Based upon the theory that the people on the bluff should pay would be the same as the pig that built the brick house should pay for the houses of the other two pigs.
As a general statement houses in the American Bottoms are generally cheaper than the houses on the bluffs. There are reasons for this and the people that paid extra to live on the bluff should not have to pay for the lower cost houses that were built in a flood plain. The old saying that you can't fool mother nature holds true; build in a flood plain and you will be someday faced with flooding issues.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2019, 2:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

poor ol elroy, you would have a better chance of witnessing a purple monkey flying out of you a** when you wake up from your nap, than to see the scenario you describe take place.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Picard <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Picard' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 12:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

I wonder if trying to convince people that tall grass in a ditch would hold back the water flow would be just as misleading, or better yet, absurd.

Just another insane comment by your resident outside of Madison county conservative.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 5:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

I never was big on the highlighting Picard, but yours does seem appropriate. Richard Pryor said it best, aint no man in the world can hold back no water if it wanna go. Thats not engineer talk, but it makes quite a bit of sense.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Remember the 3 pigs story from childhood?

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 5:41 pm, in reply to "Remember the 3 pigs story from childhood?"

So River, you're saying that if my house is more valuable than yours, I should be allowed to divert water onto your property by building mine up? That's a violation of most city building codes.

The people up the hill are pushing more and more water to a system that wasn't designed for it. Similarly, people in GC who illegally pump their water into the city sanitary lines, will eventually have to foot the bill for repairs.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 5:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

Again, I will ask anyone who doubts that water won't flow as fast through a weed filled ditch to take this little test.

Fill your bathtub with clean water. Pull the stopper and time how long it takes to empty the tub.

Now repeat only this time, fill the tub with a bag full of grass clippings from your yard work. Time it again and get back to me if you had exact times. You won't.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 7:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Watching people fumble around for some excuse to blame Adler and absolve others is just silly, but that is exactly where we are at. 99% of us dont know a damn thing about dealing with flood waters of this magnitude, but we know enough to blame this one guy. We know enough to blame the one person that has dealt with a lot of BS yet continues patiently to explain
what he has done and the challenges we face.
Some say we can get to the bottom of this by doing bathtub experiments, ok, that works for me. Lets try the experiment where we weld the stopper closed and then turn the water on and see what happens. If some one simply tells me i dont like the guy, i just want him gone i could accept that. Thats 95% of the people that hate Trump, so its nothing new.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Dave Williams <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Dave+Williams' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 7:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Granite City can make all the excuses to the moon. Infrastructure in this city has been deteriorating for decades. The only thing our idiot officials have done about it is collect pensions. Yeah lets bring back the family structure MESD board with Hagnauer. That is like going back to using a hammer and chisel to write.

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits. -Thomas Jefferson

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Dave Williams <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Dave+Williams' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 7:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Oh and grass doesn't impede water. That is just ignorant talk.

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits. -Thomas Jefferson

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Stephen Adler <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Stephen+Adler' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 10:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

I left a pretty detailed response couple days back that summarizes why once the level of Horseshoe Lake is under control, the failed infrastructure within the city of GC is exposed.

In the old days, everyone would have flooded together, and no one would have thought differently. Things have changed, MESD and Pontoon Beach have their act together now, and the emperor stands disrobed.

GC will fix it when the public demands action. To buy time, let's blame somebody else.

Give them bread and circuses.

Or, if you're in Florida, take a nap.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 10:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Wallace, if you remember, I agreed that the restricted opening of a catch basin would slow down water flow.

No one is holding Mr. Adler 100% responsible for what happened in August. However, you should be careful about getting so far up his anal canal that you'll never be able to type again. LOL

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 10:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Wrong David.

Drainage Enhancement | Drainage Enhancement Maintenance
aquaticweedcontrolorlando.com/S-drainage-enhancement-maintenance.html
Drainage of water from pavement areas is critical for roadbed integrity. Undesirable vegetation along pavement edges can cause ponding on the roadway. Vegetation in drainage ditches can impede water flow and contribute to ponding in the ditch and on the travel way. Water ponding in the ditch can result in weakened sub grades and pavement failure.

There are more articles if you care to google them.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 11:03 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Mr. Adler, you're getting a little testy there sir.

As the Mayor of PB pointed out, you had little to do with the improvements made out there in regard to drainage.

Being fair, you can in no way be held personally to blame for this problem. You have indeed made repairs on pumps that were in bad shape for years. You, or your superiors, have indeed worked to lower the level of Horseshoe Lake. All appreciated.

I certainly hope GC will look at the ten to fifteen catch basins that were reduced in opening size after paving of streets. That would seem to be an easy fix to simply remove the asphalt build up.

Thanks for monitoring this and continuing to share information. You're a public servant. Don't show your irritation when asked about issues. These aren't personal attacks.

And Merry Christmas to you as well.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 11:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

One more freebie.

Ask a Question forum: What can I plant in my drainage ...
https://garden.org/thread/view/109739/What-can-I-plant-in-my-drainage-ditch/?offset=20

Jul 06, 2019 · Any plant material in the ditch will trap debris floating downstream during heavy rains. Over time, this build up can add several inches to the bottom.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

No that is not what I am saying

Posted by Riverbender <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Riverbender' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 11:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Remember the 3 pigs story from childhood?"

and my apologies if it sounded as if it led to the conclusion you have reached.
What I am saying is that the people that decided to build and live in the American Bottoms did so of their own free will. Building in a flood plain has risks and the inhabitants chose to take those risks.

My explanation simply was meant to show that prices are generally cheaper below the bluffs because of those, among other, risks. Someone that chose to live on the bluffs and paid more to escape those risks should not be penalized for doing so. My reply was in answer to your observation that roads and other developments are causing water issues is somewhat vague to me. Granite City has had its share of development over the years as well. None the less buying property in a flood plain is risky and is priced accordingly. WHy expect others that take measures to avoid those risks, at extra cost to them, now be penalized for doing so?

And that is exactly what Jay Hoffman is doing

Posted by Riverbender <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Riverbender' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 11:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

getting Hagnauer back on the board so things can return as they were before. Gotta admit though we can all agree Hagnauer might need another pension.
Thinking on Hagnauer when he gets back on the board maybe he can turn the canals and levees into a tourist destination with imported boats from Venice Italy. Within a few years he could order custom made boats at astonishing expense hiring individuals to run mainly vacant boats county wide that no one hardly uses and perhaps name them the Madison Water Transit Authority.
What a great idea...maybe they should try that with buses someday.

Question Mr. Alder

Posted by Riverbender <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Riverbender' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 11:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Just out of curiosity is there a figure of total costs to keep those warehouses, that you obviously support, nice and dry during times like these or any other times for that reason?
The amounts if not readily obtainable perhaps you could suggest where someone may investigate to see what the amounts are for themselves.
Just asking.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Bluangel <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Bluangel' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 11:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

I wonder how water flows over riff raff that lines drainage ditches? Well or not so well?

"Trump's Yo President" ~ Diamond & Silk

Re: No that is not what I am saying

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2019, 11:57 pm, in reply to "No that is not what I am saying"

No apologies needed River. I respect your vies and appreciate the debate.

My point is we, the bottoms, have become the watershed for development outside of this community. As a Young child, I don’t remember streets flooding even during torrential rains. Surely their watershed has added to our problem. August was a ran and not a river event.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 12:00 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Blu, the “riffraff” is placed there to prevent erosion. Our ditch has none.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 12:04 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

So Mr. Chris is acceptable, but Mr. Adler isnt? Its ok with me either way, i just want to know the guidelines. Mr. Chris, Mr. Adler, Mr. Worker, (NOT Mr. blu) hell just let me know when you change another rule so i can be in compliance. Calling someone Mr. SHOULD NOT be considered ass kissing, or should it?? I dont know Mr. Adler.... ooops, i mean Adler at all, i saw his picture a few times, but that
shouldnt count?? Since you are the self appointed expert on who can comment on which local issues and that vets opinions on some things are more meaningful than non vets, i merely want to comply with your wishes Mr. Opie. You defend your boys Opie, and at times get a bit sensitive when others do not feel the same way. Hey, i get all of that, but you dont get to be the pissy old man when your FAVS are getting clobbered and then turn around and act like Opie Cochrane and try to be judge and Jury with Adler without getting it back a little yourself. Its a cruel world Opie and im not sure you really want to have this conversation about ass kissing.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: And that is exactly what Jay Hoffman is doing

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 12:07 am, in reply to "And that is exactly what Jay Hoffman is doing"

Can they have little diners on those boats Mr. River?

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 12:52 am, in reply to "Re: Latest MESD News Reporting on KMOV"

Resident outside of Madison County??? No way, Really?

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Dave Williams <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Dave+Williams' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 1:39 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Adler getting testy? It seems you are. It seems you have a vested interest in Eddie Hagnauer.

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits. -Thomas Jefferson

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 7:21 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Wally, only to say you can kiss mine boy,

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Stephen Adler <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Stephen+Adler' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 9:07 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Mr. OP...Both you and the poster whom presents himself as Mayor have some, but not all, of the facts straight.

The improvements made by Pontoon Beach are minor, but they are improvements, and as long as Horseshoe Lake is low, they work better. If Horseshoe Lake is high, those improvements mean nothing, and contribute nothing. It will remain that way as long as water seeks it's own level. Water drains from high to low, and if Horseshoe Lake is above Long Lake...conduit size means nothing, and in fact...floods Pontoon Beach more efficiently.

I've offered to teach you...indeed walk you through the process, and you refused. You prefer to sit back in the shadows and throw misfactual darts.

This is America.
You have the qualified right of free speech, but so do I.

Someone (anyone) who is ignorant of the facts AND refuses to learn them is either a troll or was sent here to stir the pot. Maybe both.

So what is your title Mr. OP?
Are you a Troll, or sent here by the status quo to stir the pot?

Now how's that for testy?

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Worker A <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Worker+A' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 9:35 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

When the old MESD board was disbanded, some people at GC city hall flew into a rage. Opinioated is very clearly in their camp. The math is clear.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Picard <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Picard' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 10:28 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Mr. Adler, some of us do appreciate you and your expertise.

I've offered to teach you...indeed walk you through the process, and you refused. You prefer to sit back in the shadows and throw misfactual darts.

Ironically he is usually the one that tells others to run for mayor, alderman, or school board official if they complain about how things are being run. He doesn't follow his own example.

Someone (anyone) who is ignorant of the facts AND refuses to learn them

That is quite a few GC officials.

That I can't answer but...

Posted by Riverbender <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Riverbender' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 12:54 pm, in reply to "Re: No that is not what I am saying"

I do see your point. I can not really give any type of educated opinion as I am not a civil engineer, geologist or whatever type of scientist can evaluate these types of situations. I will say though that the whole thing seems to me a multi caused problem and hope the best for those it has and will impact.
One thing though I can say however is that I think insurance companies can get pretty picky about paying claims on water damage. The hurricane situation a few years back when insurers took the position that it was flooding that caused damage not the hurricane and, for some reason, flooding was not covered by many homeowner plans. I got a letter from my insurer last year to inform me that I would not be covered by flooding and should I desire coverage I would need an extra cost rider on my plan. The actual cost was only a couple of dollars per month but to me it simply looked like a good way of the insurance companies to deny coverage. So, not being an insurance expert either, I would suggest that everyone contact their agent and get a heads up on water damage coverage. I know I complain a lot about taxes but next on my list is the insurance companies. You can't live without it, or I can't anyway, and every year it seems like coverage is being limited while the premiums go up.

Re: That I can't answer but...

Posted by bob <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=bob' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 1:52 pm, in reply to "That I can't answer but..."

Also, Riverbender, a lot of the water is not flood water, but back-up water and will not be covered. That's what the insurance companies will say.

If you don't read the papers, you're uninformed. If you read the papers, you're misinformed. - Mark Twain

Re: That I can't answer but...

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 2:49 pm, in reply to "Re: That I can't answer but..."

The insurance companies love this. They are raking it in like the crooks they are. I never used to think that about insurance companies, but what a racket.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 3:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

You called him Mr. Adler, you probably shouldnt have done that.
I didnt want to be taught either, my desk was in the hall most of seventh grade. Opie wants to be the Prosecutor and also the defense attorney for his boys plus be the top conservative on this site. Thats a pretty tall order, he may have to give up golf.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 3:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Dont be offended, but i would rather french kiss Maxine Waters. BTW dont gender assign, thats bigoted, dont you keep current on that stuff?

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Worker A <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Worker+A' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2019, 4:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Lol

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 14, 2019, 12:29 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

That’s not bad Steve. Yes, I do tend to stir it up a bit. I really enjoy it when I think someone responds and gets a little upset. I know you’re under a great deal of pressure with the lawsuit and especially with some within your ranks who may not back your play.

Lawsuits will drag on for a few years. I don’t have that much time left here on earth and more than likely you won’t be director at that time either. Time will tell.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: That I can't answer but...

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 14, 2019, 12:31 am, in reply to "That I can't answer but..."

Agree with your 12:54 post River.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by opinionated <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=opinionated' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 14, 2019, 12:35 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Good one Wallace but that could be considered racist by Maxine supporters.

"Great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make the difference. It is never about the role - always about the goal." Lisa Haisha

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 14, 2019, 12:48 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

If she feels that way she can go in whiteface if she wants to, it doesnt change anything for me.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Wally Bunker <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Wally+Bunker' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 14, 2019, 1:47 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Are all those in Adlers group his own people, or do some of those remaining possibly have some bad feelings for when their pals got the boot? Seems reasonable, im just asking because i dont know. Watching these Obama holdovers lying their asses off for the past 3 plus years might make me feel a little bit nervous. They are of course two separate issues but still. Adler isnt the only one going through all of this nonsense BTW. Many of the people that kicked this can down the road for decades have for a long time not been with us anymore. I have a feeling somebody is going to get screwed over before its over and its a real shame. According to the Madison County paper, if you want to sue somebody this is the place to do it. I dont trust anybody, when you dont make exceptions it just makes things easier.

Bernie BLAMES Trump Even As Democrats And CNN Rig Primary Against Him. That figures, even Liz Warren backed him down.

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Dave Williams <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Dave+Williams' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 14, 2019, 10:44 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

I bet these are much more hard workers than the group that was let go....

https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/article/8216-These-are-true-working-cats-8217-Feral-14906379.php

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits. -Thomas Jefferson

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Stephen Adler <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Stephen+Adler' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 14, 2019, 10:58 am, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Believe it or not that articled generated a little controversy from folks wanting us to pay trappers and euthanize kittys anyway.

Maybe post a new thread?

Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts.

Posted by Bluangel <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/GraniteGossip/info/user=Bluangel' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 14, 2019, 12:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Thank you for your post and expiation of the facts."

Top Canadian engineers have began to appreciate the extraordinary excavating and silting skills of the beaver.

They have learned to communicate with them and effectively use their skill.

"Trump's Yo President" ~ Diamond & Silk

Link: Beavers are dam important for the ecosystem

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