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Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Gordon on March 7, 2008, 6:46 pm 124.187.14.68 I'm preparing a commercial work, here. To complete this work I'd really love to know the source of this design. Can anybody help?  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Paul on June 27, 2008, 9:16 pm, in reply to "Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 64.12.117.78 I have a Sydenham plate by J.Clementson that has two females in the center. The border design is the same as the others posted. It's a bit odd to me in that the one female is very much larger than the other, yet looks like a young girl. She holds flowers in her lap and is gently looking downward. Half of her upper midriff is undraped, and the chest is flat, no breast. The smaller figure is looking up towards her rather devotionally, she is shown 3/4 from the back side, and her hand looks like it is clasped as if in prayer or devotion. I can email a photo of this scene to anybody who is interested. Paul  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Gordon on June 27, 2008, 10:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 124.185.223.151 Yes, if you could email it to gordon@oldchinaservice.com I'd be most interested in seeing it. Thanks, Gordon  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Andrew J Pye on March 13, 2008, 5:07 am, in reply to "Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 84.92.89.69 Hi Gordon and Connie Sydenham is taking on a life of its own! Never has a drab south London suburb been so famous or classical. Have not come across Sydenham shape, but am as certain as I can be that it was also a pattern name. My recall is that there is nothing special about the shapes of the platters and plates of Sydenham pattern. I have a suggestion for the subject matter for the statue in the main series of patterns that you illustrate Gordon. I believe it depicts Vertumnus and Pomona. It would explain the old woman/young woman thing, although on at least one of them Cupid has turned into a dog! Regards Andrew  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Gordon on March 13, 2008, 6:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 124.187.110.35 Connie, there's no molding, raised patterns or relief on the Sydenham plates. But you raise an interesting point, which could take the 'Clementson Sydenham' issue into a whole other direction, lol. Andrew, Vertumnus & Pomona, and also Jupiter & Calisto, both mythological cases of a man pretending to be somebody else in order to blindside the woman into loving him. I'll mention both these on my web page, and then incorporate that page into an existing commercial project I have going. I'll change that page as and when it becomes necessary. Thank you again, for all your help. Regards, Gordon  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Gordon on March 13, 2008, 5:19 am, in reply to "Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 124.187.110.35 Thank you Andrew and Connie. I'll certainly be looking into the Vertumnus and Pomona angle, Andrew. Connie, I have some of the original higher resolution images of the Sydenham plates on a flash drive, and I'll look closely to see if there's molding on the rims. All that will be tomorrow: It's bedtime in Australia. I'll post again tomorrow after I've done the research. Thanks again. Gordon  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Andrew J Pye on March 12, 2008, 4:03 am, in reply to "Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 84.92.89.69 Hi Gordon I sort of recognise that article, but not sure where it originated. N Hudson Moore in The Old China Book makes the same claim about Clementson having the "Sydenham Potteries" as he made pottery and marked it Clementson Sydenham! Clearly, a confusion with the pattern name. Clementson were always at the Phoenix and Bell Works, Hanley, Staffs. The nearest they got to Sydenham was possibly a day trip to visit the Cast Courts in the re-assembled Crystal Palace. There is no mention in Jewitt of Sydenham in connection with Clementson or anybody else. One would guess most makers were inspired by the Great Exhibition and apparently one statute and then Clementson coming late to the game used Sydenham for their classical sulpture pattern. I reckon you need a classical sculpture expert next. Regards Andrew  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Gordon on March 12, 2008, 4:57 am, in reply to "Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 124.187.110.35 Thanks again, Andrew. I've found photos of the Greek Court, from the Cast Courts in Sydenham, (two photos which I think shows all of the Greek statues right here. No luck. Thank you for your help and interest. If I do find anything in the future, I'll definitely let you know. Regards, Gordon  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Connie Rogers on March 12, 2008, 9:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 71.72.211.105 Hi, I was just scanning all these postings and wonder if the Clementson plates in your project have any molding on the rim? The White Ironstone Association has done a lot of research on shapes. Sydenham Shape is one that was produced by Clementson and T. & R. Boote, in the 1850s with variations by Anthony Shaw and J. & G Meakin. WHITE IRONSTONE CHINA Plate Identification Guide 1840-90 by Ernie & Bev Dieringer illustrates two plates in Sydenham Shape. There are several teapots in the Identification Guide to WHITE IRONSTONE TEAPOTS put out by the Club and lots of other references to the shape in tureens, jugs, etc. in their newsletters. If the plates in question don't have any molding on the rim, then this is a blind alley. I just thought it might be worth mentioning.  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Gordon on March 11, 2008, 8:55 pm, in reply to "Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 124.187.110.35 Andrew, since you appeared perplexed by the reference to Jewitt mentioning "The Sydenham Works", I've Googled, and Yahoo'd and searched elsewhere, and I cannot find any other reference to such a place, apart from that one internet reference. I think that site is probably incorrect. Again, you threw a ball for me to pick up and run with, thank you. Goordon  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Andrew J Pye on March 11, 2008, 6:41 pm, in reply to "Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 84.92.89.69 Hi Gordon You are beginning to lose me. I cannot find the Jewitt reference to the Sydenham Works and Clementson. I am working from memory, but I reckon the platter had a seated large lady or two as the sculpture, not a standing sylph-like figure. Clementson and Sydenham may be a red herring, but I still believe that the Great Exhibition is what prompted the outbreak of classical sculpture on tableware. The Great Exhibition was held in the Crystal Palace in Hyde Park in 1851, which is nowhere near Sydenham. The Palace was moved to Penge Place, Sydenham Hill and re-opened there in 1854 and the area only became known as Crystal Palace much later after what had become its most famous landmark, until it burnt down in 1936. If you were naming a china pattern of classical sculpture following the re-opening of the Cast Courts then Sydenham would be a good fit. Regards Andrew  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Gordon on March 11, 2008, 6:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 124.187.110.35 Thanks Andrew, I'll keep looking for other Clemntson Sydenham patterns, and hopefully I'll find the one you mean. Yes you're correct. Crystal Palace was named that well after the Exhibition. (Sorry). I found the Jewitt reference at this site: http://www.oldandsold.com/articles16/antique-china-17.shtml If you search for the word Clementson or Sydenham, you'll see it. I don't have a copy of that book. Are you saying that reference is incorrect? If Jewitt does not mention this, I'll need to go back to my web page and remove the reference. Regards, Gordon  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Gordon on March 11, 2008, 4:53 pm, in reply to "Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 124.187.110.35 I see that Jewitt says Clementson became proprietor of the Sydenham works about 1832. This, rather than the Crystal Palace, might be the source for the Clementson name Sydenham.  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Andrew J Pye on March 11, 2008, 2:24 pm, in reply to "Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 84.92.89.69 Hi Gordon I think I can answer your question in a general way even though I do not know the specific sculpture. Some years ago we had a platter by Clementson with a similar design on it. The pattern name was Sydenham, which got me thinking, strange name for a classical sculpture design as it is an area of southern London! Home to Crystal Palace Football Team amongst other things and Crystal Palace seemed to me to be the link, but not the Football Team. The Great Exhibition held in the Crystal Palace in Hyde Park, London was in 1851 and one of the must see attractions were the Cast Courts, full of reproductions of classical sculptures and much more. There were masses of them. The Victorians found art in this form very uplifting. After the Exhibition the Crystal Palace was dismantled and re-erected at Sydenham and when it re-opened in 1854 as a "leisure centre" one of the features of the Exhibition that was re-instated were the Cast Courts. The Victoria & Albert Museum in London that was founded from the profits of the Exhibition had to have its own famous Cast Courts. Clearly the Victorians liked big helpings of casts and sculpture even down reproducing them on tableware. Hope that helps. Just need to identify the sculpture now. Regards Andrew  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Gordon on March 11, 2008, 5:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 124.187.110.35 I've just trawled the internet and found two examples of Clementson's Sydenham, - not the same design, so this was either a series, or the word Sydenham refers to their Sydenham Works. I'm leaning to it being the name of a series, as both the patterns I found are of a (just one) Greek/Roman female posing beside a fluted pillar. Interestingly, one of the border cartouches appears to show two women embracing. I'll immemdiately include it in that page I linked to in my first message, so you can see what I mean. Gordon  Post a Response

Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design Posted by Gordon on March 11, 2008, 4:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Looking for the source of an 1850's design" 124.187.110.35 Thanks Andrew. I thought immediately of the Crystal Palace Exhibition when I tried to think what 1851 had to do with anything in the way of art or design. I even imported (I'm in Australia) a copy of a Great Exhibition catalogue, which shows thousands of items, but is not complete. (I was looking for a painting or a sculpture, but found nothing). I agree that the Crystal Palace Exhibition is the most likely source. In fact, when Crystal Palace became a suburb in its own right, it was carved out of the neighbouring suburbs of Sydenham and Norwood. Thanks you for your reply. Now, I need to find a picture of Clementson's Sydenham to add to my work. Regards, Gordon  Post a Response

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