Posted by Wymark on 7/10/2009, 10:15 pm, in reply to "Re: SO WHAT!!! THEY ALL DO THAT ALL THE TIME!!! let me tell you about MY experiences with muslims.."
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The West has an intellectual, moral, cultural tradition.
Which includes imperialism and colonialism, and it's offshoots racism, genocide, slavery and mass murder. Most of which were carried out by people who were claiming to be bringing the values of 'Christian/liberal civilisation' to the barbarians. Have a read of Richard Seymour's The Liberal Defence Of Murder, if you haven't already, where he traces the intellectual underpinnings of these foul acts.
And it was only sixty years ago that one of Europe's major states and cultural centres, Germany, was carrying out the worst act of genocide humanity has ever seen, mainly against backwards religious sorts and their leftist apologists whose ways had no place in such a cultured continent. To quote Goebells in September 1938:
'A petty segment of Europe is harassing the human race . . . This miserable pygmy race [the Czechs] is oppressing a cultured people, and behind it is Moscow and the eternal mask of the Jew devil'.
William Sheirer, The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich, page 353.
The arguments you're making aren't without precedent in recent European history, obviously, and they're simply racist and dangerous.
Its a shame that pro-Westermism
What the hell is this 'pro-Westernism'? Does it include pro-holocaust sentiments? Pro-apartheid sentiments? Pro-slavery sentiments? Pro-nuking the Japanese sentiments? Pro-starving Iraqi children sentiments? These are all things that suppsoedly enlightened and civilised Western states and their colonial offshoots have been guilty of in the fairly recent past. Considering this, it's just astounding when Europeans get on their high horses and try and contrast the 'civilised' West with the 'backwards' East.
In your experience whilst out jogging you mean?
In my experience of spending at least six hours a day chatting and debating on liberal talk boards like The Guardian's Comment Is Free. There's nothing that gets them frothing at the mouth, that can turn generally reasonable and intelligent people into ranting bigots, more than the mere mention of Muslims.
More and more millions of immigrants equals more and more anti-racist liberalism, I'm afraid.
More anti-racism would clearly be a good thing, not a bad thing.
Plus more and more anti-Western terrorism and illiberalism to boot.
Jesus. Here you are confliating immigration/immigrants with terrorism. These kinds of arguments are almost exclusively confined to the far right, and with good reason.
An article from the Independent Working Class Association website from a year or so ago, which as I recall had some rather good points. I am willing to accept that some people receive so much psychological reward from their committed anti-racism that dogma becomes a needs must.
There are criticisms to be made of multi-culturalism from the left, sure. But then Islamophobia is no more a coherent, progressive critique of multi-culturalism than anti-semitism is. I can't believe you can't see this.
