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Posted by Hikin' Jim on November 3, 2009, 13:55:41, in reply to "Re: Bear Canisters"
162.119.238.162
Hey HJ,
Exactly right. I'm glad that you understand where I'm coming from.
I guess we aren't so different after all that we are on the same page with a different taste.
All I know is I feel your pain on adding 6lbs HJ. It ended up costing me the cost of a new pack so my canister would fit.
Yes, that's what I was talking about when I said 6 pounds. The canister is 3 pounds. The other pounds come from having to switch to a big overnight backpack with a frame.
And, yes buying or renting a new backpack isn't an unreasonable thing to ask if it protects the bears. However, note that in your examples, not one of them was a backpacker in the San Gorgonio Wilderness as far as I could tell. My point is that we shouldn't force people to buy/rent a new backpack and buy/rent a canister unless we really need to. Until there's documented evidence showing that there's a bear problem outside of the Vivian Creek area, I would like to see people not being forced to carry heavy gear that really isn't needed. However, on the Vivian Creek Trail, there's more than enough evidence to show that bears are a real problem there. Even though I don't like hard sided canisters, I think that requiring canisters really is necessary on Vivian Creek. There you have it. 
HJ
--Previous Message--
: Hey HJ,
: I guess we aren't so different after
: all that we are on the same page
: with a different taste. Thats not a
: problem together we can work through
: these coming down with a solution.
: One of the problems for Vivian is
: how close the camp is to the TH.
: Even halfway is close compared to
: other camp sites around the SGW.
: Fish creek is the other but doesn't
: recieve the amount of people each
: year being it gets closed. The other
: trails except south fork are also
: less used during that time also.
: Leaving Vivian and South Fork the
: most traveled trails. People are
: pigs they leave trash every where,
: this is a start to the problem.
: Having a way to keep our human food
: away from wildlife by using a
: canister is only going to help. Its
: a place people can throw there
: trash. Its a seat. its a table and
: many other usefull ways...
: I have found some stats but not as
: you say back-packer strictly related
: incidents.
: Los Angeles County, July 2003 – A
: male hiker was knocked down by a
: bear at a remote campsite along the
: Pacific Crest Trail in the Angeles
: National Forest. The hiker had just
: reached the camp, which was empty,
: dropped his pack on a picnic table,
: and was looking for a place to hang
: his food. As he walked back toward
: the pack, he heard a noise behind
: him. As he turned he was knocked to
: the ground by a bear. After standing
: over him for a few seconds, the bear
: grabbed the backpack and began
: dragging it off. The man shouted at
: the bear and threw rocks until the
: bear finally retreated without the
: backpack. The hiker received only
: minor bruises and was not seriously
: hurt.
:
: Los Angeles County, July 2001 – A
: woman was bitten on the arm by a
: bear at a county-run tree farm near
: La Verne. The bear, which was
: earlier spotted climbing on a nearby
: trash can, reportedly walked up to
: the woman while she was seated at a
: picnic table and bit her on the arm.
: The woman was treated at a hospital
: for puncture wounds. The bear was
: later shot and killed by Los Angeles
: County sheriff’s deputies. The bear
: weighed approximately 85 pounds and
: was estimated at one to two years of
: age.
: San Bernardino County, August 1993 –
: Two separate incidents occurred
: within three days of each other. In
: both cases, the bear — or bears —
: grabbed a child by the head and
: attempted to drag him away. In each
: incident, both victims were
: 13-year-old males and were sleeping
: on the ground in sleeping bags at
: the time of the attack. The bear
: also inflicted minor injuries on
: three other campers immediately
: prior to the attacks. The attacks
: occurred at two group campgrounds
: approximately two miles from each
: other and the attacks ended when
: other campers aggressively came to
: the victims’ aid. More than 100
: people were sleeping on the ground
: in the immediate area at the time of
: the each attack. Both campgrounds
: were either clean or moderately
: clean. However, the area is
: interspersed with cabins and garbage
: is available nearby. Natural foods
: were available and abundant at the
: time of the attacks.
:
: Within two hours of the second
: incident, two bears were tracked
: with dogs and killed. Both bears
: were young, healthy males weighing
: about 200 pounds each. The necropsy
: performed later indicated that both
: bears were disease free. Residents
: in the area felt that the same two
: bears were observed with a sow the
: previous summer and that these
: animals had been feeding on garbage
: and handouts.
:
: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/bear/bear_incidents.html
:
: http://tafkac.org/animals/bear_attacks.html
: Bear problems are coming at an
: unusually fast pace this year, due
: in part to their population growth.
: Bears wander as much as 150 miles in
: search of food and open turf as
: their numbers increase. Statewide,
: bear population estimates are
: upwards of 22,000 compared with
: 12,000 in the early 1980s. The San
: Bernardino National Forest has the
: most in Southern California --
: between 300-400.
:
: http://www.sgwa.org/4victor/4victor_old/4victor_98july.htm
: This entire internal conversation
: happened in less than a second! The
: human mind is amazing.!
:
: http://www.aminus.org/blogs/index.php/2006/11/12/good_morning_mrs_bear?blog=4
:
: HJ I think if we continue with this
: great conversation and anyone else
: that wants to jump in and help solve
: this problem. Its not going to be
: easy and yes we might have to relook
: at how we experience our outdoor
: adventures.
:
: All I know is I feel your pain on
: adding 6lbs HJ. It ended up costing
: me the cost of a new pack so my
: canister would fit. Small thing for
: a working person...
: Remember its not a wildlife problem
: its a human problem...
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: What proof do you have to state
: that other areas do not have the
: same kind of problems? What stats
: do you have on backpacker-bear
: incidents outside of Vivian Creek.
: The problem is Vivian. Fix the
: problem.
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: HJ,
: You talk about the Vivian Zone. what
: proof do you have to state that
: other areas do not have the same
: kind of problems ?
: How far do these Bear Travel ? from
: zone to zone ?
: Zones could work if our Wilderness
: was as big as say the High Sierra
: Range. But it is not its SMALL.
: Especailly the given trails that are
: used. Not all of the Wilderness is
: assecible by trail which leaves
: problems for zones being these areas
: have higher use. than the lower
: unassesibe places.
: HJ who does like a big round bulky
: canister but I'm willing and able to
: support it fully. it may be some
: more weight but think if it truely
: does help why not do it... I'm
: willing are you ?
: Happy Hiking
:
:
:
:
:
:
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