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MagnaFuel Outlaw 10.5--Doug Sikora
MagnaFuel Xtreeme Drag Radial--Rich Hoyle
AOS Hot Street--Tony Aneian
Mickey Thompson Tires Wild Street--George Raygoza
W|Vortech Outlaw 8.5-- Casey VanTol
Edelbrock Super Index--Dick Krieger
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Throttle by Wire Posted by DougHendrick on December 14, 2011, 4:13 pm Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca index and open classes? I am new to the area this November and would like to run Psca next year. Thanks in advance

Re: Throttle by Wire Posted by Fishlips on December 15, 2011, 8:18 pm, in reply to "Throttle by Wire" So to carry your line of thought one step further, does this mean there is no Electronic Fuel Injection allowed either? It's electronics! There have been many throttle by wire cars competing at PSCA Events. Every Vette since 98 is a TBW (Throttle By Wire) as well as many others. Sure there are ways to change the way the TBW responds to input from the driver but it still requires input from the driver to initiate it. None of the current TBW systems offer user adjustable response times that I have seen. Frankly, stagger and tire diameter are much easier to change than the electronics if you are looking for delay on the starting line. I think the intent of the no-electronics rule is to keep the driver in control of the inputs to the car. Like when it leaves the starting line (pressing on the gas pedal), when it shifts (whole different can of worms here) and the ET to a certain extent. TBW and other electronics systems will have to be considered but I don't see them as an advantage to a bracket racer. --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance :

Re: Throttle by Wire Posted by Ronnie on December 15, 2011, 8:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Throttle by Wire" 07 Mean and 10 Open Comp Champ I was speaking ONLY to electronically slowing down or speeding up the car. I understand that some electronics are necessary. I don't know that much about TBW, so if what you said is true and there is no advantage at all over other racers to have it on your car, by all means I have no problem with it. However, if someone is trying to gain an edge using it, then I think it should NOT be allowed. The more even the playing field the better. Let's try and keep them Driver's classes. My .02 cents and I'm done! --Previous Message-- : So to carry your line of thought one step : further, does this mean there is no : Electronic Fuel Injection allowed either? : It's electronics! : : There have been many throttle by wire cars : competing at PSCA Events. Every Vette since : 98 is a TBW (Throttle By Wire) as well as : many others. Sure there are ways to change : the way the TBW responds to input from the : driver but it still requires input from the : driver to initiate it. None of the current : TBW systems offer user adjustable response : times that I have seen. Frankly, stagger and : tire diameter are much easier to change than : the electronics if you are looking for delay : on the starting line. : : I think the intent of the no-electronics : rule is to keep the driver in control of the : inputs to the car. Like when it leaves the : starting line (pressing on the gas pedal), : when it shifts (whole different can of worms : here) and the ET to a certain extent. TBW : and other electronics systems will have to : be considered but I don't see them as an : advantage to a bracket racer. : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : :

The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by Ronnie on December 14, 2011, 9:47 pm, in reply to "Throttle by Wire" 07 Mean and 10 Open Comp Champ I am not sure of the "Letter of the rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what the "Spirit of the Rule is". The classes were designed to have the racers slow their cars down (or speed them up) manually. This could be done by adding or removing weight. Taking timing out or add timing manually. Taking throttle out of the car by linkage adjustment or some type of restrictor plate all being done manually. They are considered "NON ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product isn't specifically listed as not allowed doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What little I do know about "throttle by wire" is that adjustments are made electronically. I think the term "No electronics" speaks for itself. I don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm not sure! And by no means take my word on it, I am speaking only to the intent of the rule! I would call Mel to get the "Letter of the Rule"! Looking forward to seeing you in the lanes! --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by 777J on December 15, 2011, 8:15 am, in reply to "The intent of the no electronics policy!" I’m going to have to agree with Ron on this one. Nhra will never not allow it in the stock and super stock classes because there never going to tell Ford Chevy or Dodge there cars can’t run because of them. But they can be modified to change throttle opening percentage and you can program delay as well. This will be a problem for drag racing venues in the future. They are ignoring it for now but it is a problem. From what I understand its going to start with eliminating cars that didn’t come from the factory with this provision from using it because of its capabilities which is a good start, and then it will go from there. Anyway you slice it it’s an electronic aide and should be banned from bracket classes of all kinds. There could be an easy fix for people to run the device with its capabilities other than opening throttle disabled but I doubt we would see that anytime soon. And anyone out there that thinks they can’t be used to delay throttle opening or throttle percentage you are dead wrong... --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by porchoracing on December 15, 2011, 9:17 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" I agree Dan we ran into this same problem in Las Vegas with a mm racer who was programming throttle percentage in. Although it is close to doing timing and such to a carbed car it is far more accurate and can be adjusted instantly in the lanes with a hand held tuner. This is a big problem I have with it.

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by Doug Crumlich on December 15, 2011, 12:04 am, in reply to "The intent of the no electronics policy!" Ron Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by wire? I am sure they have raced in open before? --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : Doug Crumlich Cutting Edge Motorsports. 2008 Super Street Champ

Doug, I really don't know! Posted by Ronnie on December 15, 2011, 9:18 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" 07 Mean and 10 Open Comp Champ I am speaking only to the intention of the rule. Keep the playing field as even as possible by making everybody do things manually. "No Electronics" to me means not allowing anything "electronics" to slow or speed up the car. I really don't care too much one way or the other. Just trying to protect the integrity of the rule. --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by George Klass on December 15, 2011, 4:45 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" This has been an interesting situation in NHRA since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the General Admin. Section of the rulebook forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle system, unless it's stated differently under the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super Stock and probably some (or all) Comp Eliminator classes. Of course, none of those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section (Section 4B). Neither of those sections addresses anything to do with "throttle control" so technically, the rules in the General Admin Section apply. No drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA was notified in 2005 (by me) that since almost every new car built after 2005 was equipped with drive-by-wire throttle systems, a "waiver" was approved and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle body system and since aftermarket computers ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) manufacture both types for Ford Racing. Plenty of confusion all around, however since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at NHRA facilities, they should be legal in PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not object to their use. The old phrase "step on the gas" is apperenlty as out of date as "blowing your horn" I guess. --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by Doug Crumlich on December 15, 2011, 6:18 pm, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" So what george is saying is that nhra allows throttle by wire in there three most prevelant classes that do no allow electronic bracket racing aids. If this is true, why would psca have an issue with it. why ban new technology? This isnt good guys where they live in the dark ages. May as well go to flagged starters. --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : Doug Crumlich Cutting Edge Motorsports. 2008 Super Street Champ

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by Ronnie on December 15, 2011, 8:40 pm, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" 07 Mean and 10 Open Comp Champ Doug, It still goes back to the intent of the "No electronics" policy. I think these classes were designed to keep it simple and as inexpensive as possible. It sounds like (but I'm not sure) it's a way to get an advantage over others in the classes. Let's try to keep the playing field AS EVEN AS POSSIBLE and not have to spend a lot of money doing it. Why not keep everything manual. They have classes for all the new electronic technologies, Super Gas, Super Comp etc. IMO we should try and keep it simple and not have to install some new gizmo every year to stay competitive. Just because NHRA allows it doesn't mean the PSCA has to. Again, I will continue to race no matter what happens but not allowing would be the fairest to all concerned. No real need to go backward though I think the Christmas Tree is fair to all. Just my .02 cents. --Previous Message-- : So what george is saying is that nhra allows : throttle by wire in there three most : prevelant classes that do no allow : electronic bracket racing aids. : : If this is true, why would psca have an : issue with it. : why ban new technology? This isnt good guys : where they live in the dark ages. May as : well go to flagged starters. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by Doug Crumlich on December 16, 2011, 7:33 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" I understand your point, but if the largest sanctioning body feels that it is not a competitive advantage, then why us. We do not want to allienate the newer cars from running with us. As for cost, That goes up as the car goes faster and there are advantages of a faster car. Throttle stops and delay boxes are way cheap compaired to that. I know, I run both Super Gas/Comp and Non Elect with PSCA. To disagree with your point and look at it another way, there are classes in the Heritage series for people that do not like today's technology, NOT PSCA. PSCA has some of the most technological cars in Drag Racing. Prostreet is just crazy with electronics, they even use traction control. So I would say, PSCA uses more of todays technology than NHRA does. Just another point of view from a racer with Today's fuel delivery system. (EFI) Although I am still bumbling wit it. --Previous Message-- : Doug, It still goes back to the intent of the : "No electronics" policy. I think : these classes were designed to keep it : simple and as inexpensive as possible. It : sounds like (but I'm not sure) it's a way to : get an advantage over others in the classes. : Let's try to keep the playing field AS EVEN : AS POSSIBLE and not have to spend a lot of : money doing it. Why not keep everything : manual. They have classes for all the new : electronic technologies, Super Gas, Super : Comp etc. IMO we should try and keep it : simple and not have to install some new : gizmo every year to stay competitive. Just : because NHRA allows it doesn't mean the PSCA : has to. Again, I will continue to race no : matter what happens but not allowing would : be the fairest to all concerned. No real : need to go backward though I think the : Christmas Tree is fair to all. Just my .02 : cents. : : --Previous Message-- : So what george is saying is that nhra allows : throttle by wire in there three most : prevelant classes that do no allow : electronic bracket racing aids. : : If this is true, why would psca have an : issue with it. : why ban new technology? This isnt good guys : where they live in the dark ages. May as : well go to flagged starters. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : Doug Crumlich Cutting Edge Motorsports. 2008 Super Street Champ

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by Ronnie on December 16, 2011, 9:16 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" 07 Mean and 10 Open Comp Champ Doug, I understand what you said about the heads up classes and all the electronics they use. If your read my post again you will see I am talking about the CLASSES WE RUN. Let's keep it simple, let's keep it fair and let's keep it inexpensive. What you are talking about sounds real expensive and I'm sure 99% of the cars in Open and the indexes don't want to spend any more money. --Previous Message-- : I understand your point, but if the largest : sanctioning body feels that it is not a : competitive advantage, then why us. We do : not want to allienate the newer cars from : running with us. : : As for cost, That goes up as the car goes : faster and there are advantages of a faster : car. Throttle stops and delay boxes are way : cheap compaired to that. I know, I run both : Super Gas/Comp and Non Elect with PSCA. : : To disagree with your point and look at it : another way, there are classes in the : Heritage series for people that do not like : today's technology, NOT PSCA. PSCA has some : of the most technological cars in Drag : Racing. Prostreet is just crazy with : electronics, they even use traction control. : So I would say, PSCA uses more of todays : technology than NHRA does. : : Just another point of view from a racer with : Today's fuel delivery system. (EFI) Although : I am still bumbling wit it. : : : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, It still goes back to the intent of : the : "No electronics" policy. I think : these classes were designed to keep it : simple and as inexpensive as possible. It : sounds like (but I'm not sure) it's a way to : get an advantage over others in the classes. : Let's try to keep the playing field AS EVEN : AS POSSIBLE and not have to spend a lot of : money doing it. Why not keep everything : manual. They have classes for all the new : electronic technologies, Super Gas, Super : Comp etc. IMO we should try and keep it : simple and not have to install some new : gizmo every year to stay competitive. Just : because NHRA allows it doesn't mean the PSCA : has to. Again, I will continue to race no : matter what happens but not allowing would : be the fairest to all concerned. No real : need to go backward though I think the : Christmas Tree is fair to all. Just my .02 : cents. : : --Previous Message-- : So what george is saying is that nhra allows : throttle by wire in there three most : prevelant classes that do no allow : electronic bracket racing aids. : : If this is true, why would psca have an : issue with it. : why ban new technology? This isnt good guys : where they live in the dark ages. May as : well go to flagged starters. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by Doug Crumlich on December 16, 2011, 11:51 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" Ron,. There is no such thing as "intent" when it comes to the Rules in racing. The written rules are just that. If it is not spelled out that you cannot use it, then it is determined that it is legal. This is the way the rules in NHRA, PSCA and others have always been. A smart racer uses what is available to them as they can afford it. Don't drag the forward thinking racers down because you do not choose to hedge your bet when the rules allow you to. Believe me, we are always looking for the advantage in the rules and you should also. But, I wish everyone would just race as we always have. Seems to be as competitive as ever in Open and all index classes. I don't think it is broken, just some .500 racers trying to get some advantage back from the .400 racers. Thus making the rules work for you as I mentioned above. --Previous Message-- : Doug, I understand what you said about the : heads up classes and all the electronics : they use. If your read my post again you : will see I am talking about the CLASSES WE : RUN. Let's keep it simple, let's keep it : fair and let's keep it inexpensive. What : you are talking about sounds real expensive : and I'm sure 99% of the cars in Open and the : indexes don't want to spend any more money. : : --Previous Message-- : I understand your point, but if the largest : sanctioning body feels that it is not a : competitive advantage, then why us. We do : not want to allienate the newer cars from : running with us. : : As for cost, That goes up as the car goes : faster and there are advantages of a faster : car. Throttle stops and delay boxes are way : cheap compaired to that. I know, I run both : Super Gas/Comp and Non Elect with PSCA. : : To disagree with your point and look at it : another way, there are classes in the : Heritage series for people that do not like : today's technology, NOT PSCA. PSCA has some : of the most technological cars in Drag : Racing. Prostreet is just crazy with : electronics, they even use traction control. : So I would say, PSCA uses more of todays : technology than NHRA does. : : Just another point of view from a racer with : Today's fuel delivery system. (EFI) Although : I am still bumbling wit it. : : : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, It still goes back to the intent of : the : "No electronics" policy. I think : these classes were designed to keep it : simple and as inexpensive as possible. It : sounds like (but I'm not sure) it's a way to : get an advantage over others in the classes. : Let's try to keep the playing field AS EVEN : AS POSSIBLE and not have to spend a lot of : money doing it. Why not keep everything : manual. They have classes for all the new : electronic technologies, Super Gas, Super : Comp etc. IMO we should try and keep it : simple and not have to install some new : gizmo every year to stay competitive. Just : because NHRA allows it doesn't mean the PSCA : has to. Again, I will continue to race no : matter what happens but not allowing would : be the fairest to all concerned. No real : need to go backward though I think the : Christmas Tree is fair to all. Just my .02 : cents. : : --Previous Message-- : So what george is saying is that nhra allows : throttle by wire in there three most : prevelant classes that do no allow : electronic bracket racing aids. : : If this is true, why would psca have an : issue with it. : why ban new technology? This isnt good guys : where they live in the dark ages. May as : well go to flagged starters. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Doug Crumlich Cutting Edge Motorsports. 2008 Super Street Champ

My Stand on things! Posted by Ronnie on December 16, 2011, 2:58 pm, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" 07 Mean and 10 Open Comp Champ Doug, So if it does come down that it is not allowed (A written rule) it sounds like you would be OK with that, as long as it is the rule! Webster defines take advantage as this: (1) to make use of for one's own benefit. (2) To impose upon in a selfish way. So if I'm hearing you right, rather than using solely your driving skills and tuning abilities you'll look for an advantage over the other racers to win??? Doug, If you think I am trying to drag you down you are mistaken and I apoligize. You seem to be taking this personally. If you read everything I have written in all the recent threads on the PSCA message board you will find that I am not thinking about me (and trying to take advantage) I am thinking about the overall racer and trying to keep the playing field as even as possible and I will always think along those lines. I will say it again as I have many times I can and will adapt to whatever tree we use and whatever rules we use. When we think of others before ourselves our quality of life improves. Don't get me wrong I love to win and that is my focus at the track. But if I did it by taking advantage of some rule the win would for me would lose a lot of it's flavor! I know we are all different but that is how I stand and always will! Your fellow competitor, Ron --Previous Message-- : Ron,. : : There is no such thing as "intent" : when it comes to the Rules in racing. The : written rules are just that. If it is not : spelled out that you cannot use it, then it : is determined that it is legal. This is the : way the rules in NHRA, PSCA and others have : always been. : : A smart racer uses what is available to them : as they can afford it. Don't drag the : forward thinking racers down because you do : not choose to hedge your bet when the rules : allow you to. : : Believe me, we are always looking for the : advantage in the rules and you should also. : : But, I wish everyone would just race as we : always have. Seems to be as competitive as : ever in Open and all index classes. I don't : think it is broken, just some .500 racers : trying to get some advantage back from the : .400 racers. Thus making the rules work for : you as I mentioned above. : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, I understand what you said about the : heads up classes and all the electronics : they use. If your read my post again you : will see I am talking about the CLASSES WE : RUN. Let's keep it simple, let's keep it : fair and let's keep it inexpensive. What : you are talking about sounds real expensive : and I'm sure 99% of the cars in Open and the : indexes don't want to spend any more money. : : --Previous Message-- : I understand your point, but if the largest : sanctioning body feels that it is not a : competitive advantage, then why us. We do : not want to allienate the newer cars from : running with us. : : As for cost, That goes up as the car goes : faster and there are advantages of a faster : car. Throttle stops and delay boxes are way : cheap compaired to that. I know, I run both : Super Gas/Comp and Non Elect with PSCA. : : To disagree with your point and look at it : another way, there are classes in the : Heritage series for people that do not like : today's technology, NOT PSCA. PSCA has some : of the most technological cars in Drag : Racing. Prostreet is just crazy with : electronics, they even use traction control. : So I would say, PSCA uses more of todays : technology than NHRA does. : : Just another point of view from a racer with : Today's fuel delivery system. (EFI) Although : I am still bumbling wit it. : : : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, It still goes back to the intent of : the : "No electronics" policy. I think : these classes were designed to keep it : simple and as inexpensive as possible. It : sounds like (but I'm not sure) it's a way to : get an advantage over others in the classes. : Let's try to keep the playing field AS EVEN : AS POSSIBLE and not have to spend a lot of : money doing it. Why not keep everything : manual. They have classes for all the new : electronic technologies, Super Gas, Super : Comp etc. IMO we should try and keep it : simple and not have to install some new : gizmo every year to stay competitive. Just : because NHRA allows it doesn't mean the PSCA : has to. Again, I will continue to race no : matter what happens but not allowing would : be the fairest to all concerned. No real : need to go backward though I think the : Christmas Tree is fair to all. Just my .02 : cents. : : --Previous Message-- : So what george is saying is that nhra allows : throttle by wire in there three most : prevelant classes that do no allow : electronic bracket racing aids. : : If this is true, why would psca have an : issue with it. : why ban new technology? This isnt good guys : where they live in the dark ages. May as : well go to flagged starters. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Re: My Stand on things! Posted by Doug Crumlich on December 16, 2011, 6:14 pm, in reply to "My Stand on things!" Ron, I hear what you are saying, but, at the end, we are there to compete. Could I have fun in a 10.60 car, Yes, and I did that for a while. But, the 8.60 car adds many benifits not found in a 10.60 car. I use the rule of 8.50 or slower to my advantage so I can chase all the time. As you know, it is an advantage not to have to look over your shoulder to spot a car coming up on you. (you enjoy this most of the time) Basically, the car chasing has more control over the race, unless the guy runs dead on, then, good job. I am not cheating, but using a rule to my advantage. As you said, we should think of the good of the sport. This being said, that also means that we should not worry about what the other guy is doing and run our own race. Who really cares how another guys is doing it if we are there for fun. As long as it is preset before the tree comes down, I feel it is legal. What is the difference of shortening your throttle, using a baseplate restrictor or programming the throttle to only open so far and so fast. I can do all that mechanically if I want so what is the difference. On getting under my skin. No way, this is the most fun I have had on this board in a while. I was getting quite bored until someone decided to upset the apple cart and try to change the rules (.400 to .500) to benifit themselves and gain them an advantage instead of working to fit the rules. (Not many of us started in a fast car, so we upgraded and made it work) Some of the post had me laughing so hard I was in tears. So thanks for the fun. I will see you all in .400 or .500 racing this year as I will make my car fit the rules and not try to change them to my benefit. Marciano, I am still coming up from behind --Previous Message-- : Doug, So if it does come down that it is not : allowed (A written rule) it sounds like you : would be OK with that, as long as it is the : rule! Webster defines take advantage as : this: (1) to make use of for one's own : benefit. (2) To impose upon in a selfish : way. So if I'm hearing you right, rather : than using solely your driving skills and : tuning abilities you'll look for an : advantage over the other racers to win??? : Doug, If you think I am trying to drag you : down you are mistaken and I apoligize. You : seem to be taking this personally. If you : read everything I have written in all the : recent threads on the PSCA message board you : will find that I am not thinking about me : (and trying to take advantage) I am thinking : about the overall racer and trying to keep : the playing field as even as possible and I : will always think along those lines. I will : say it again as I have many times I can and : will adapt to whatever tree we use and : whatever rules we use. When we think of : others before ourselves our quality of life : improves. Don't get me wrong I love to win : and that is my focus at the track. But if I : did it by taking advantage of some rule the : win would for me would lose a lot of it's : flavor! I know we are all different but : that is how I stand and always will! Your : fellow competitor, Ron : : --Previous Message-- : Ron,. : : There is no such thing as "intent" : when it comes to the Rules in racing. The : written rules are just that. If it is not : spelled out that you cannot use it, then it : is determined that it is legal. This is the : way the rules in NHRA, PSCA and others have : always been. : : A smart racer uses what is available to them : as they can afford it. Don't drag the : forward thinking racers down because you do : not choose to hedge your bet when the rules : allow you to. : : Believe me, we are always looking for the : advantage in the rules and you should also. : : But, I wish everyone would just race as we : always have. Seems to be as competitive as : ever in Open and all index classes. I don't : think it is broken, just some .500 racers : trying to get some advantage back from the : .400 racers. Thus making the rules work for : you as I mentioned above. : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, I understand what you said about the : heads up classes and all the electronics : they use. If your read my post again you : will see I am talking about the CLASSES WE : RUN. Let's keep it simple, let's keep it : fair and let's keep it inexpensive. What : you are talking about sounds real expensive : and I'm sure 99% of the cars in Open and the : indexes don't want to spend any more money. : : --Previous Message-- : I understand your point, but if the largest : sanctioning body feels that it is not a : competitive advantage, then why us. We do : not want to allienate the newer cars from : running with us. : : As for cost, That goes up as the car goes : faster and there are advantages of a faster : car. Throttle stops and delay boxes are way : cheap compaired to that. I know, I run both : Super Gas/Comp and Non Elect with PSCA. : : To disagree with your point and look at it : another way, there are classes in the : Heritage series for people that do not like : today's technology, NOT PSCA. PSCA has some : of the most technological cars in Drag : Racing. Prostreet is just crazy with : electronics, they even use traction control. : So I would say, PSCA uses more of todays : technology than NHRA does. : : Just another point of view from a racer with : Today's fuel delivery system. (EFI) Although : I am still bumbling wit it. : : : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, It still goes back to the intent of : the : "No electronics" policy. I think : these classes were designed to keep it : simple and as inexpensive as possible. It : sounds like (but I'm not sure) it's a way to : get an advantage over others in the classes. : Let's try to keep the playing field AS EVEN : AS POSSIBLE and not have to spend a lot of : money doing it. Why not keep everything : manual. They have classes for all the new : electronic technologies, Super Gas, Super : Comp etc. IMO we should try and keep it : simple and not have to install some new : gizmo every year to stay competitive. Just : because NHRA allows it doesn't mean the PSCA : has to. Again, I will continue to race no : matter what happens but not allowing would : be the fairest to all concerned. No real : need to go backward though I think the : Christmas Tree is fair to all. Just my .02 : cents. : : --Previous Message-- : So what george is saying is that nhra allows : throttle by wire in there three most : prevelant classes that do no allow : electronic bracket racing aids. : : If this is true, why would psca have an : issue with it. : why ban new technology? This isnt good guys : where they live in the dark ages. May as : well go to flagged starters. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Doug Crumlich Cutting Edge Motorsports. 2008 Super Street Champ

A lot of it was quite Hilarious! Posted by Ronnie on December 16, 2011, 6:54 pm, in reply to "Re: My Stand on things!" 07 Mean and 10 Open Comp Champ Especially the comments about the older racers. They should look at the results and check the ages. I think they would be quite surprised! See you soon! --Previous Message-- : Ron, : : I hear what you are saying, but, at the end, : we are there to compete. Could I have fun : in a 10.60 car, Yes, and I did that for a : while. But, the 8.60 car adds many benifits : not found in a 10.60 car. I use the rule of : 8.50 or slower to my advantage so I can : chase all the time. As you know, it is an : advantage not to have to look over your : shoulder to spot a car coming up on you. : (you enjoy this most of the time) : Basically, the car chasing has more control : over the race, unless the guy runs dead on, : then, good job. I am not cheating, but : using a rule to my advantage. : : As you said, we should think of the good of : the sport. This being said, that also means : that we should not worry about what the : other guy is doing and run our own race. Who : really cares how another guys is doing it if : we are there for fun. As long as it is : preset before the tree comes down, I feel it : is legal. What is the difference of : shortening your throttle, using a baseplate : restrictor or programming the throttle to : only open so far and so fast. I can do all : that mechanically if I want so what is the : difference. : : On getting under my skin. No way, this is : the most fun I have had on this board in a : while. I was getting quite bored until : someone decided to upset the apple cart and : try to change the rules (.400 to .500) to : benifit themselves and gain them an : advantage instead of working to fit the : rules. (Not many of us started in a fast : car, so we upgraded and made it work) : : Some of the post had me laughing so hard I : was in tears. So thanks for the fun. : : I will see you all in .400 or .500 racing : this year as I will make my car fit the : rules and not try to change them to my : benefit. : : Marciano, I am still coming up from behind : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, So if it does come down that it is : not : allowed (A written rule) it sounds like you : would be OK with that, as long as it is the : rule! Webster defines take advantage as : this: (1) to make use of for one's own : benefit. (2) To impose upon in a selfish : way. So if I'm hearing you right, rather : than using solely your driving skills and : tuning abilities you'll look for an : advantage over the other racers to win??? : Doug, If you think I am trying to drag you : down you are mistaken and I apoligize. You : seem to be taking this personally. If you : read everything I have written in all the : recent threads on the PSCA message board you : will find that I am not thinking about me : (and trying to take advantage) I am thinking : about the overall racer and trying to keep : the playing field as even as possible and I : will always think along those lines. I will : say it again as I have many times I can and : will adapt to whatever tree we use and : whatever rules we use. When we think of : others before ourselves our quality of life : improves. Don't get me wrong I love to win : and that is my focus at the track. But if I : did it by taking advantage of some rule the : win would for me would lose a lot of it's : flavor! I know we are all different but : that is how I stand and always will! Your : fellow competitor, Ron : : --Previous Message-- : Ron,. : : There is no such thing as "intent" : when it comes to the Rules in racing. The : written rules are just that. If it is not : spelled out that you cannot use it, then it : is determined that it is legal. This is the : way the rules in NHRA, PSCA and others have : always been. : : A smart racer uses what is available to them : as they can afford it. Don't drag the : forward thinking racers down because you do : not choose to hedge your bet when the rules : allow you to. : : Believe me, we are always looking for the : advantage in the rules and you should also. : : But, I wish everyone would just race as we : always have. Seems to be as competitive as : ever in Open and all index classes. I don't : think it is broken, just some .500 racers : trying to get some advantage back from the : .400 racers. Thus making the rules work for : you as I mentioned above. : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, I understand what you said about the : heads up classes and all the electronics : they use. If your read my post again you : will see I am talking about the CLASSES WE : RUN. Let's keep it simple, let's keep it : fair and let's keep it inexpensive. What : you are talking about sounds real expensive : and I'm sure 99% of the cars in Open and the : indexes don't want to spend any more money. : : --Previous Message-- : I understand your point, but if the largest : sanctioning body feels that it is not a : competitive advantage, then why us. We do : not want to allienate the newer cars from : running with us. : : As for cost, That goes up as the car goes : faster and there are advantages of a faster : car. Throttle stops and delay boxes are way : cheap compaired to that. I know, I run both : Super Gas/Comp and Non Elect with PSCA. : : To disagree with your point and look at it : another way, there are classes in the : Heritage series for people that do not like : today's technology, NOT PSCA. PSCA has some : of the most technological cars in Drag : Racing. Prostreet is just crazy with : electronics, they even use traction control. : So I would say, PSCA uses more of todays : technology than NHRA does. : : Just another point of view from a racer with : Today's fuel delivery system. (EFI) Although : I am still bumbling wit it. : : : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, It still goes back to the intent of : the : "No electronics" policy. I think : these classes were designed to keep it : simple and as inexpensive as possible. It : sounds like (but I'm not sure) it's a way to : get an advantage over others in the classes. : Let's try to keep the playing field AS EVEN : AS POSSIBLE and not have to spend a lot of : money doing it. Why not keep everything : manual. They have classes for all the new : electronic technologies, Super Gas, Super : Comp etc. IMO we should try and keep it : simple and not have to install some new : gizmo every year to stay competitive. Just : because NHRA allows it doesn't mean the PSCA : has to. Again, I will continue to race no : matter what happens but not allowing would : be the fairest to all concerned. No real : need to go backward though I think the : Christmas Tree is fair to all. Just my .02 : cents. : : --Previous Message-- : So what george is saying is that nhra allows : throttle by wire in there three most : prevelant classes that do no allow : electronic bracket racing aids. : : If this is true, why would psca have an : issue with it. : why ban new technology? This isnt good guys : where they live in the dark ages. May as : well go to flagged starters. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Re: My Stand on things! Posted by 777J on December 16, 2011, 6:50 pm, in reply to "Re: My Stand on things!" Thats okay I own a buisness in california and my asshole is used to it dry! --Previous Message-- : Ron, : : I hear what you are saying, but, at the end, : we are there to compete. Could I have fun : in a 10.60 car, Yes, and I did that for a : while. But, the 8.60 car adds many benifits : not found in a 10.60 car. I use the rule of : 8.50 or slower to my advantage so I can : chase all the time. As you know, it is an : advantage not to have to look over your : shoulder to spot a car coming up on you. : (you enjoy this most of the time) : Basically, the car chasing has more control : over the race, unless the guy runs dead on, : then, good job. I am not cheating, but : using a rule to my advantage. : : As you said, we should think of the good of : the sport. This being said, that also means : that we should not worry about what the : other guy is doing and run our own race. Who : really cares how another guys is doing it if : we are there for fun. As long as it is : preset before the tree comes down, I feel it : is legal. What is the difference of : shortening your throttle, using a baseplate : restrictor or programming the throttle to : only open so far and so fast. I can do all : that mechanically if I want so what is the : difference. : : On getting under my skin. No way, this is : the most fun I have had on this board in a : while. I was getting quite bored until : someone decided to upset the apple cart and : try to change the rules (.400 to .500) to : benifit themselves and gain them an : advantage instead of working to fit the : rules. (Not many of us started in a fast : car, so we upgraded and made it work) : : Some of the post had me laughing so hard I : was in tears. So thanks for the fun. : : I will see you all in .400 or .500 racing : this year as I will make my car fit the : rules and not try to change them to my : benefit. : : Marciano, I am still coming up from behind : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, So if it does come down that it is : not : allowed (A written rule) it sounds like you : would be OK with that, as long as it is the : rule! Webster defines take advantage as : this: (1) to make use of for one's own : benefit. (2) To impose upon in a selfish : way. So if I'm hearing you right, rather : than using solely your driving skills and : tuning abilities you'll look for an : advantage over the other racers to win??? : Doug, If you think I am trying to drag you : down you are mistaken and I apoligize. You : seem to be taking this personally. If you : read everything I have written in all the : recent threads on the PSCA message board you : will find that I am not thinking about me : (and trying to take advantage) I am thinking : about the overall racer and trying to keep : the playing field as even as possible and I : will always think along those lines. I will : say it again as I have many times I can and : will adapt to whatever tree we use and : whatever rules we use. When we think of : others before ourselves our quality of life : improves. Don't get me wrong I love to win : and that is my focus at the track. But if I : did it by taking advantage of some rule the : win would for me would lose a lot of it's : flavor! I know we are all different but : that is how I stand and always will! Your : fellow competitor, Ron : : --Previous Message-- : Ron,. : : There is no such thing as "intent" : when it comes to the Rules in racing. The : written rules are just that. If it is not : spelled out that you cannot use it, then it : is determined that it is legal. This is the : way the rules in NHRA, PSCA and others have : always been. : : A smart racer uses what is available to them : as they can afford it. Don't drag the : forward thinking racers down because you do : not choose to hedge your bet when the rules : allow you to. : : Believe me, we are always looking for the : advantage in the rules and you should also. : : But, I wish everyone would just race as we : always have. Seems to be as competitive as : ever in Open and all index classes. I don't : think it is broken, just some .500 racers : trying to get some advantage back from the : .400 racers. Thus making the rules work for : you as I mentioned above. : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, I understand what you said about the : heads up classes and all the electronics : they use. If your read my post again you : will see I am talking about the CLASSES WE : RUN. Let's keep it simple, let's keep it : fair and let's keep it inexpensive. What : you are talking about sounds real expensive : and I'm sure 99% of the cars in Open and the : indexes don't want to spend any more money. : : --Previous Message-- : I understand your point, but if the largest : sanctioning body feels that it is not a : competitive advantage, then why us. We do : not want to allienate the newer cars from : running with us. : : As for cost, That goes up as the car goes : faster and there are advantages of a faster : car. Throttle stops and delay boxes are way : cheap compaired to that. I know, I run both : Super Gas/Comp and Non Elect with PSCA. : : To disagree with your point and look at it : another way, there are classes in the : Heritage series for people that do not like : today's technology, NOT PSCA. PSCA has some : of the most technological cars in Drag : Racing. Prostreet is just crazy with : electronics, they even use traction control. : So I would say, PSCA uses more of todays : technology than NHRA does. : : Just another point of view from a racer with : Today's fuel delivery system. (EFI) Although : I am still bumbling wit it. : : : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, It still goes back to the intent of : the : "No electronics" policy. I think : these classes were designed to keep it : simple and as inexpensive as possible. It : sounds like (but I'm not sure) it's a way to : get an advantage over others in the classes. : Let's try to keep the playing field AS EVEN : AS POSSIBLE and not have to spend a lot of : money doing it. Why not keep everything : manual. They have classes for all the new : electronic technologies, Super Gas, Super : Comp etc. IMO we should try and keep it : simple and not have to install some new : gizmo every year to stay competitive. Just : because NHRA allows it doesn't mean the PSCA : has to. Again, I will continue to race no : matter what happens but not allowing would : be the fairest to all concerned. No real : need to go backward though I think the : Christmas Tree is fair to all. Just my .02 : cents. : : --Previous Message-- : So what george is saying is that nhra allows : throttle by wire in there three most : prevelant classes that do no allow : electronic bracket racing aids. : : If this is true, why would psca have an : issue with it. : why ban new technology? This isnt good guys : where they live in the dark ages. May as : well go to flagged starters. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by 777J on December 16, 2011, 8:22 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" a --Previous Message-- : I understand your point, but if the largest : sanctioning body feels that it is not a : competitive advantage, then why us. We do : not want to allienate the newer cars from : running with us. : : As for cost, That goes up as the car goes : faster and there are advantages of a faster : car. Throttle stops and delay boxes are way : cheap compaired to that. I know, I run both : Super Gas/Comp and Non Elect with PSCA. : : To disagree with your point and look at it : another way, there are classes in the : Heritage series for people that do not like : today's technology, NOT PSCA. PSCA has some : of the most technological cars in Drag : Racing. Prostreet is just crazy with : electronics, they even use traction control. : So I would say, PSCA uses more of todays : technology than NHRA does. : : Just another point of view from a racer with : Today's fuel delivery system. (EFI) Although : I am still bumbling wit it. : : : : --Previous Message-- : Doug, It still goes back to the intent of : the : "No electronics" policy. I think : these classes were designed to keep it : simple and as inexpensive as possible. It : sounds like (but I'm not sure) it's a way to : get an advantage over others in the classes. : Let's try to keep the playing field AS EVEN : AS POSSIBLE and not have to spend a lot of : money doing it. Why not keep everything : manual. They have classes for all the new : electronic technologies, Super Gas, Super : Comp etc. IMO we should try and keep it : simple and not have to install some new : gizmo every year to stay competitive. Just : because NHRA allows it doesn't mean the PSCA : has to. Again, I will continue to race no : matter what happens but not allowing would : be the fairest to all concerned. No real : need to go backward though I think the : Christmas Tree is fair to all. Just my .02 : cents. : : --Previous Message-- : So what george is saying is that nhra allows : throttle by wire in there three most : prevelant classes that do no allow : electronic bracket racing aids. : : If this is true, why would psca have an : issue with it. : why ban new technology? This isnt good guys : where they live in the dark ages. May as : well go to flagged starters. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by DougHendrick on December 15, 2011, 5:55 pm, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" Well my car did not come with the system so there is no OEM computer controlling the throttle this is a aftermarket application. I sent a email to the psca and have not heard back from them at this time. I want to attend some races next year and want no problems to arrise. --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by 777J on December 16, 2011, 9:17 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" Sounds like your good so welcome to the psca! --Previous Message-- : Well my car did not come with the system so : there is no OEM computer controlling the : throttle this is a aftermarket application. : I sent a email to the psca and have not : heard back from them at this time. I want to : attend some races next year and want no : problems to arrise. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by George Klass on December 16, 2011, 4:17 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" There is no performance advantage with drive-by-wire systems over mechanical systems, none whatsoever. It is not a "bracket racing aid". --Previous Message-- : Well my car did not come with the system so : there is no OEM computer controlling the : throttle this is a aftermarket application. : I sent a email to the psca and have not : heard back from them at this time. I want to : attend some races next year and want no : problems to arrise. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by 777J on December 16, 2011, 8:32 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" Nobody said anything about a performance advantage. I don’t think that Ron was questioning psca's technical advancements. What he is questioning is what you can and can’t do with drive by wire. If you can control throttle opening percentage, and throttle opening delay by electronic devise then that is electronics. If any of you think that it can’t be done with the factory and aftermarket units than you are dead wrong. To ignore it because NHRA does nothing about it (yet) is just that (ignoring it) the units that come on original equipment cars are more difficult to modify but it can be done. I don’t know who does or who does not use it but if they do have it and they are using it in a manner other than opening and closing there car/fuelinjection/throttlebody or whatever then they can pass judgment on themselves. Ron is right the spirit of no e is just that, using physical means of altering speed and et not plugging in a laptop or tuner and altering the computer. And if it’s not electronics then explain to me the difference just don’t say nhra allows it because we don’t race nhra. Thanks in advance --Previous Message-- : There is no performance advantage with : drive-by-wire systems over mechanical : systems, none whatsoever. It is not a : "bracket racing aid". : : --Previous Message-- : Well my car did not come with the system so : there is no OEM computer controlling the : throttle this is a aftermarket application. : I sent a email to the psca and have not : heard back from them at this time. I want to : attend some races next year and want no : problems to arrise. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by George Klass on December 16, 2011, 9:35 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" I believe that you are ill-informed. There is no competitive advantage with drive-by-wire. The throttle opening is still controlled by your right foot, just as it is with a mechanical linkage. We work very close with FoMoCo on this DBW stuff. Accufab produces all the aftermarket DBW throttle bodies sold by Ford Racing and also the DBW throttle bodies installed at the factory on the Mustang Cobra Jets. I know what the OEM computer capabilities are for the DBW vehicles. Some things you can over-ride by re-flashing, throttle position (blade opening) is not one of them. As far as the ability to use an aftermarket engine management system (computer) to operate with the DBW gas pedal, which unit are you referring to? --Previous Message-- : Nobody said anything about a performance : advantage. : : I don’t think that Ron was questioning : psca's technical advancements. What he is : questioning is what you can and can’t do : with drive by wire. If you can control : throttle opening percentage, and throttle : opening delay by electronic devise then that : is electronics. If any of you think that it : can’t be done with the factory and : aftermarket units than you are dead wrong. : To ignore it because NHRA does nothing about : it (yet) is just that (ignoring it) the : units that come on original equipment cars : are more difficult to modify but it can be : done. I don’t know who does or who does not : use it but if they do have it and they are : using it in a manner other than opening and : closing there car/fuelinjection/throttlebody : or whatever then they can pass judgment on : themselves. Ron is right the spirit of no e : is just that, using physical means of : altering speed and et not plugging in a : laptop or tuner and altering the computer. : And if it’s not electronics then explain to : me the difference just don’t say nhra allows : it because we don’t race nhra. : : Thanks in advance : : : --Previous Message-- : There is no performance advantage with : drive-by-wire systems over mechanical : systems, none whatsoever. It is not a : "bracket racing aid". : : --Previous Message-- : Well my car did not come with the system so : there is no OEM computer controlling the : throttle this is a aftermarket application. : I sent a email to the psca and have not : heard back from them at this time. I want to : attend some races next year and want no : problems to arrise. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by porchoracing on December 16, 2011, 8:21 pm, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" Stop with all the crying you girly guys. The rules state no electronics, period. If the the car you choose to race in Mustang Madness is equipped with electronics and the rules state you can not have them. Then it's pretty simple- you cannot run this class with you're car. The class was created by FORD and Mel to be bring lost cost racing to PSCA with old school Mustangs.It allows low budget racers to compete on an even playing field. By allowing later models that use or have the ability to use electronics to their advantage is making the class into not what it's intended purpose was- to bring new blood into the sport and allow them to compete on an even playing field.Rules are rules, and if We don't abide them, than they are not rules. They are a joke! --Previous Message-- : I believe that you are ill-informed. There is : no competitive advantage with drive-by-wire. : The throttle opening is still controlled by : your right foot, just as it is with a : mechanical linkage. : : We work very close with FoMoCo on this DBW : stuff. Accufab produces all the aftermarket : DBW throttle bodies sold by Ford Racing and : also the DBW throttle bodies installed at : the factory on the Mustang Cobra Jets. I : know what the OEM computer capabilities are : for the DBW vehicles. Some things you can : over-ride by re-flashing, throttle position : (blade opening) is not one of them. As far : as the ability to use an aftermarket engine : management system (computer) to operate with : the DBW gas pedal, which unit are you : referring to? : : --Previous Message-- : Nobody said anything about a performance : advantage. : : I don’t think that Ron was questioning : psca's technical advancements. What he is : questioning is what you can and can’t do : with drive by wire. If you can control : throttle opening percentage, and throttle : opening delay by electronic devise then that : is electronics. If any of you think that it : can’t be done with the factory and : aftermarket units than you are dead wrong. : To ignore it because NHRA does nothing about : it (yet) is just that (ignoring it) the : units that come on original equipment cars : are more difficult to modify but it can be : done. I don’t know who does or who does not : use it but if they do have it and they are : using it in a manner other than opening and : closing there car/fuelinjection/throttlebody : or whatever then they can pass judgment on : themselves. Ron is right the spirit of no e : is just that, using physical means of : altering speed and et not plugging in a : laptop or tuner and altering the computer. : And if it’s not electronics then explain to : me the difference just don’t say nhra allows : it because we don’t race nhra. : : Thanks in advance : : : --Previous Message-- : There is no performance advantage with : drive-by-wire systems over mechanical : systems, none whatsoever. It is not a : "bracket racing aid". : : --Previous Message-- : Well my car did not come with the system so : there is no OEM computer controlling the : throttle this is a aftermarket application. : I sent a email to the psca and have not : heard back from them at this time. I want to : attend some races next year and want no : problems to arrise. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by porchoracing on December 16, 2011, 8:48 pm, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" --Previous Message-- : Stop with all the crying you girly guys. The : rules state no electronics, period. If the : the car you choose to race in Mustang : Madness is equipped with electronics and the : rules state you can not have them. Then : it's pretty simple- you cannot run this : class with you're car. The class was created : by FORD and Mel to be bring low cost racing : to PSCA with old school Mustangs.It allows : low budget racers to compete on an even : playing field. By allowing later models that : use or have the ability to use electronics : to their advantage is making the class into : not what it's intended purpose was- to bring : new blood into the sport and allow them to : compete on an even playing field.Rules are : rules, and if We don't abide them, than they : are not rules. They are a joke! : : --Previous Message-- : I believe that you are ill-informed. There : is : no competitive advantage with drive-by-wire. : The throttle opening is still controlled by : your right foot, just as it is with a : mechanical linkage. : : We work very close with FoMoCo on this DBW : stuff. Accufab produces all the aftermarket : DBW throttle bodies sold by Ford Racing and : also the DBW throttle bodies installed at : the factory on the Mustang Cobra Jets. I : know what the OEM computer capabilities are : for the DBW vehicles. Some things you can : over-ride by re-flashing, throttle position : (blade opening) is not one of them. As far : as the ability to use an aftermarket engine : management system (computer) to operate with : the DBW gas pedal, which unit are you : referring to? : : --Previous Message-- : Nobody said anything about a performance : advantage. : : I don’t think that Ron was questioning : psca's technical advancements. What he is : questioning is what you can and can’t do : with drive by wire. If you can control : throttle opening percentage, and throttle : opening delay by electronic devise then that : is electronics. If any of you think that it : can’t be done with the factory and : aftermarket units than you are dead wrong. : To ignore it because NHRA does nothing about : it (yet) is just that (ignoring it) the : units that come on original equipment cars : are more difficult to modify but it can be : done. I don’t know who does or who does not : use it but if they do have it and they are : using it in a manner other than opening and : closing there car/fuelinjection/throttlebody : or whatever then they can pass judgment on : themselves. Ron is right the spirit of no e : is just that, using physical means of : altering speed and et not plugging in a : laptop or tuner and altering the computer. : And if it’s not electronics then explain to : me the difference just don’t say nhra allows : it because we don’t race nhra. : : Thanks in advance : : : --Previous Message-- : There is no performance advantage with : drive-by-wire systems over mechanical : systems, none whatsoever. It is not a : "bracket racing aid". : : --Previous Message-- : Well my car did not come with the system so : there is no OEM computer controlling the : throttle this is a aftermarket application. : I sent a email to the psca and have not : heard back from them at this time. I want to : attend some races next year and want no : problems to arrise. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by 777J on December 16, 2011, 9:54 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" So can you or cant you change the throttle position at wide open throttle on a tbw or not a simple yes or no will work. And if you can how is it done? with your foot? or computer change? --Previous Message-- : I believe that you are ill-informed. There is : no competitive advantage with drive-by-wire. : The throttle opening is still controlled by : your right foot, just as it is with a : mechanical linkage. : : We work very close with FoMoCo on this DBW : stuff. Accufab produces all the aftermarket : DBW throttle bodies sold by Ford Racing and : also the DBW throttle bodies installed at : the factory on the Mustang Cobra Jets. I : know what the OEM computer capabilities are : for the DBW vehicles. Some things you can : over-ride by re-flashing, throttle position : (blade opening) is not one of them. As far : as the ability to use an aftermarket engine : management system (computer) to operate with : the DBW gas pedal, which unit are you : referring to? : : --Previous Message-- : Nobody said anything about a performance : advantage. : : I don’t think that Ron was questioning : psca's technical advancements. What he is : questioning is what you can and can’t do : with drive by wire. If you can control : throttle opening percentage, and throttle : opening delay by electronic devise then that : is electronics. If any of you think that it : can’t be done with the factory and : aftermarket units than you are dead wrong. : To ignore it because NHRA does nothing about : it (yet) is just that (ignoring it) the : units that come on original equipment cars : are more difficult to modify but it can be : done. I don’t know who does or who does not : use it but if they do have it and they are : using it in a manner other than opening and : closing there car/fuelinjection/throttlebody : or whatever then they can pass judgment on : themselves. Ron is right the spirit of no e : is just that, using physical means of : altering speed and et not plugging in a : laptop or tuner and altering the computer. : And if it’s not electronics then explain to : me the difference just don’t say nhra allows : it because we don’t race nhra. : : Thanks in advance : : : --Previous Message-- : There is no performance advantage with : drive-by-wire systems over mechanical : systems, none whatsoever. It is not a : "bracket racing aid". : : --Previous Message-- : Well my car did not come with the system so : there is no OEM computer controlling the : throttle this is a aftermarket application. : I sent a email to the psca and have not : heard back from them at this time. I want to : attend some races next year and want no : problems to arrise. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by Porcho Racing on December 17, 2011, 8:02 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" On a DBW system yes you can tell the computer that when you go WOT that really only means to open the throttle plate 75% and so on. In other words it is an electronic throttle stop. Since the throttle is all done electronically this is possible to program in the amount of throttle allowed.

There is no such thing as "Intent" in the rules Posted by Doug Crumlich on December 17, 2011, 11:22 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" There is NO such thing as "intent" when you write rules. OK so what is the difference of me using an adjustable linkage to only open the throttle 70%? In fact we have so many "Manual" adjustments that the only thing an electronic throttle stop does is give us more top end speed. An electronic throttle stop is an electronic way to change throttle settings while the car is going down track. That would mean a drive by wire car would need a timer to accomplish this. You guys need to worry about things that you can control. The rules have been fine and you have been racing against DBW cars for years. Basically, if you want to drive up cost, make a lot of rules. Ask Prostock racers how expensive it is to get 10HP of advantage. --Previous Message-- : On a DBW system yes you can tell the computer : that when you go WOT that really only means : to open the throttle plate 75% and so on. : In other words it is an electronic throttle : stop. Since the throttle is all done : electronically this is possible to program : in the amount of throttle allowed. : Doug Crumlich Cutting Edge Motorsports. 2008 Super Street Champ

Re: There is no such thing as "Intent" in the rules Posted by Porcho Racing on December 18, 2011, 6:12 am, in reply to "There is no such thing as "Intent" in the rules" I agree that a carb can adjust their carb in the same fashion but they issue arises when they dbw guys are making adjustments in the staging lanes as the track and weather conditions change. This is a problem.

Re: There is no such thing as "Intent" in the rules Posted by Doug Crumlich on December 18, 2011, 7:13 pm, in reply to "Re: There is no such thing as "Intent" in the rules" I do that with my linkage It only takes a bit of ingenuity. --Previous Message-- : I agree that a carb can adjust their carb in : the same fashion but they issue arises when : they dbw guys are making adjustments in the : staging lanes as the track and weather : conditions change. This is a problem. : Doug Crumlich Cutting Edge Motorsports. 2008 Super Street Champ

Re: There is no such thing as "Intent" in the rules Posted by 777J on December 17, 2011, 12:43 pm, in reply to "There is no such thing as "Intent" in the rules" I will agree with you that we have been racing these cars in the past. But no matter how you slice it, it is a electronic throttle stop. Im more worried about you coming at me from behind! --Previous Message-- : There is NO such thing as "intent" : when you write rules. : : OK so what is the difference of me using an : adjustable linkage to only open the throttle : 70%? In fact we have so many : "Manual" adjustments that the only : thing an electronic throttle stop does is : give us more top end speed. : : An electronic throttle stop is an electronic : way to change throttle settings while the : car is going down track. That would mean a : drive by wire car would need a timer to : accomplish this. : : You guys need to worry about things that you : can control. The rules have been fine and : you have been racing against DBW cars for : years. : : Basically, if you want to drive up cost, : make a lot of rules. Ask Prostock racers : how expensive it is to get 10HP of : advantage. : : --Previous Message-- : On a DBW system yes you can tell the : computer : that when you go WOT that really only means : to open the throttle plate 75% and so on. : In other words it is an electronic throttle : stop. Since the throttle is all done : electronically this is possible to program : in the amount of throttle allowed. : : : :

Re: There is no such thing as "Intent" in the rules Posted by Doug Crumlich on December 17, 2011, 12:56 pm, in reply to "Re: There is no such thing as "Intent" in the rules" And really fast too!! --Previous Message-- : I will agree with you that we have been racing : these cars in the past. But no matter how : you slice it, it is a electronic throttle : stop. Im more worried about you coming at me : from behind! : : --Previous Message-- : There is NO such thing as "intent" : when you write rules. : : OK so what is the difference of me using an : adjustable linkage to only open the throttle : 70%? In fact we have so many : "Manual" adjustments that the only : thing an electronic throttle stop does is : give us more top end speed. : : An electronic throttle stop is an electronic : way to change throttle settings while the : car is going down track. That would mean a : drive by wire car would need a timer to : accomplish this. : : You guys need to worry about things that you : can control. The rules have been fine and : you have been racing against DBW cars for : years. : : Basically, if you want to drive up cost, : make a lot of rules. Ask Prostock racers : how expensive it is to get 10HP of : advantage. : : --Previous Message-- : On a DBW system yes you can tell the : computer : that when you go WOT that really only means : to open the throttle plate 75% and so on. : In other words it is an electronic throttle : stop. Since the throttle is all done : electronically this is possible to program : in the amount of throttle allowed. : : : : : : Doug Crumlich Cutting Edge Motorsports. 2008 Super Street Champ

Re: The intent of the no electronics policy! Posted by George Klass on December 16, 2011, 11:19 am, in reply to "Re: The intent of the no electronics policy!" If you push the pedal to the floor, the computer will go wide open with the blade, just as if it's a mechanical linkage. I am not a proponent of the DBW type throttle bodies for drag racing, myself. I would much rather use one with the mechanical linkage. The mechanical units need a TPS (throttle position sensor) to notify the computer where your right foot is, whereas the DBW does not (it gets that data before the throttle body does). My issues with DBW for racing is what happens if there is a problem with the computer and it does not recognise that you have lifted your foot off the throttle? It's just going to keep going wide open or intil you turn the key off. --Previous Message-- : So can you or cant you change the throttle : position at wide open throttle on a tbw or : not a simple yes or no will work. And if you : can how is it done? with your foot? or : computer change? : : --Previous Message-- : I believe that you are ill-informed. There : is : no competitive advantage with drive-by-wire. : The throttle opening is still controlled by : your right foot, just as it is with a : mechanical linkage. : : We work very close with FoMoCo on this DBW : stuff. Accufab produces all the aftermarket : DBW throttle bodies sold by Ford Racing and : also the DBW throttle bodies installed at : the factory on the Mustang Cobra Jets. I : know what the OEM computer capabilities are : for the DBW vehicles. Some things you can : over-ride by re-flashing, throttle position : (blade opening) is not one of them. As far : as the ability to use an aftermarket engine : management system (computer) to operate with : the DBW gas pedal, which unit are you : referring to? : : --Previous Message-- : Nobody said anything about a performance : advantage. : : I don’t think that Ron was questioning : psca's technical advancements. What he is : questioning is what you can and can’t do : with drive by wire. If you can control : throttle opening percentage, and throttle : opening delay by electronic devise then that : is electronics. If any of you think that it : can’t be done with the factory and : aftermarket units than you are dead wrong. : To ignore it because NHRA does nothing about : it (yet) is just that (ignoring it) the : units that come on original equipment cars : are more difficult to modify but it can be : done. I don’t know who does or who does not : use it but if they do have it and they are : using it in a manner other than opening and : closing there car/fuelinjection/throttlebody : or whatever then they can pass judgment on : themselves. Ron is right the spirit of no e : is just that, using physical means of : altering speed and et not plugging in a : laptop or tuner and altering the computer. : And if it’s not electronics then explain to : me the difference just don’t say nhra allows : it because we don’t race nhra. : : Thanks in advance : : : --Previous Message-- : There is no performance advantage with : drive-by-wire systems over mechanical : systems, none whatsoever. It is not a : "bracket racing aid". : : --Previous Message-- : Well my car did not come with the system so : there is no OEM computer controlling the : throttle this is a aftermarket application. : I sent a email to the psca and have not : heard back from them at this time. I want to : attend some races next year and want no : problems to arrise. : : --Previous Message-- : This has been an interesting situation in : NHRA : since about 2005. The NHRA rules in the : General Admin. Section of the rulebook : forbid any kind of a drive-by-wire throttle : system, unless it's stated differently under : the Class Rules. Drive-by-wire IS permitted : in some NHRA clases, such as Stock and Super : Stock and probably some (or all) Comp : Eliminator classes. Of course, none of : those classes tecnically run at PSCA events. : The only two areas in the NHRA rulebook : that apply to PSCA events are the ET Section : (Section 4A) and the Advanced ET Section : (Section 4B). Neither of those sections : addresses anything to do with "throttle : control" so technically, the rules in : the General Admin Section apply. No : drive-by-wire permitted. HOWEVER, once NHRA : was notified in 2005 (by me) that since : almost every new car built after 2005 was : equipped with drive-by-wire throttle : systems, a "waiver" was approved : and issued, stating that drive-by-wire IS : permitted at NHRA facilities, provided that : the OEM computer was used. Most aftermarket : engine management systems (FAST, Big Stuff, : etc.) will NOT run a drive-by-wire throttle : body system and since aftermarket computers : ARE legal in Stock and Super Stock classes, : the throttle body drive-by-wire systems may : be replaced with throttle bodies utalizing : mechanical linkage. We (Accufab) : manufacture both types for Ford Racing. : Plenty of confusion all around, however : since drive-by-wire systems ARE permitted at : NHRA facilities, they should be legal in : PSCA classes provided that PSCA does not : object to their use. : : The old phrase "step on the gas" : is apperenlty as out of date as : "blowing your horn" I guess. : : --Previous Message-- : Ron : : Aren't many of the newer cars throttle by : wire? I am sure they have raced in open : before? : : --Previous Message-- : I am not sure of the "Letter of the : rule" but I'm pretty sure I know what : the "Spirit of the Rule is". The : classes were designed to have the racers : slow their cars down (or speed them up) : manually. This could be done by adding or : removing weight. Taking timing out or add : timing manually. Taking throttle out of the : car by linkage adjustment or some type of : restrictor plate all being done manually. : They are considered "NON : ELECTRONIC" classes. If a product : isn't specifically listed as not allowed : doesn't necessarily make it OK! IMO! What : little I do know about "throttle by : wire" is that adjustments are made : electronically. I think the term "No : electronics" speaks for itself. I : don't think anyone is using it now, but I'm : not sure! And by no means take my word on : it, I am speaking only to the intent of the : rule! I would call Mel to get the : "Letter of the Rule"! Looking : forward to seeing you in the lanes! : : --Previous Message-- : Is throttle by wire allowed in the Psca : index : and open classes? I am new to the area this : November and would like to run Psca next : year. : : Thanks in advance : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

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