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Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by daoud on 11/5/2009, 7:01 pm I keep listening, and I just can't find it. I've seen people dance to this, which makes it extra troubling that I don't even know how to listen to it.  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by pablo das on 11/5/2009, 7:55 pm, in reply to "Where the hell is beat one in this song?" Message modified by user pablo das 11/5/2009, 7:55 pm hahah I think i can help. it's in four. if you listen to the bass at the beginning. it begins on one and ends literally on the downbeat of three. "bass bass bass bass" (nothing for one beat) 1 2 3 4 ----> repeat. if that doesnt work Ill; make you a video! Pablo  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by Bee K on 11/5/2009, 11:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song?" That's one of the best breakup records I've heard in a long time...brilliant. And God said, "let there be free will."  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by danf on 11/6/2009, 12:33 am, in reply to "Where the hell is beat one in this song?" pablo's right. ps: the birthday mix you made me is AMAZING. fall out boy - who knew? .  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by MMM on 11/6/2009, 8:44 am, in reply to "Where the hell is beat one in this song?" I listened to this song once and didn't really feel the need to listen again. "Always make new mistakes."  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by Ben S on 11/6/2009, 9:17 am, in reply to "Where the hell is beat one in this song?" Man, that's tricky. Here's how I think it works: The lyrical phrases all start on the and of one. "I'm not loving you" is "and two and three and." The percussive bass part goes: three-and-four -- one. The last low thumpy note is the one. So perhaps it's better to describe the bass part like this: thump -- three and four - thump -- three and four. But the very first beat of the song you hear is the three; also, the word "love" in the chorus is on three (the "down" of "locked down" is also the one). This is what makes it so hard to hear: all sorts of structural emphasis that would normally indicate the one is actually misdirecting you to the three. For dancing most people only need to pick up the pulse of the beat, not the metrical divisions. Me, stuff like this keeps me up awake all night if I can't figure it out. The intros to Hendrix's version of "All Along the Watchtower" and to "Rock and Roll" by Zeppelin each took a ridiculous amount of time and mental anguish for me to figure them out. But I eventually got them. Also the intro to "Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and my Monkey." But those are all just intros that I initially couldn't get to mesh with the song; this is much harder in that the whole song is off unless you crack the code. Even then it's hard to hear.  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by Anders on 11/6/2009, 10:09 am, in reply to "Where the hell is beat one in this song?" Message modified by user Anders 11/6/2009, 10:12 am Pablo is right, Ben S is wrong. Bass drum plays: 1 & 2 3 rest on 4. Vocal comes in on & of 3 in the 4th bar.  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by Ben S on 11/6/2009, 12:33 pm, in reply to "Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song?" I'm not so sure; my way is definitely harder to get your ear around than the Pablo/Anders way, but it fits better with where the drums enter and exit and where the chords change. I could still be convinced I'm wrong, though.  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by pablo das on 11/6/2009, 1:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song?" I love this thread!  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by Anders on 11/6/2009, 1:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song?" Message modified by user Anders 11/6/2009, 1:12 pm if you hear the chord change you will hear the slight accent on 1 where pablo and i have described it the keyboard comes in on the & of 4 the chord change is anticipated by that pick-up you naturally hear the chord change on the 1 (in Ben's version that pick up comes on the & of 2 establishing the chord on 3 that makes no sense, there's no reason for it) nobody was reading music on this session but where one feels 1 has an effect on the performance (hear the accent) also if one way is "harder to get your ear around" it's probably because that's not what it is horrible track but i am always interested to dissect especially rhythm i'll show you my notebook  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by jo on 11/6/2009, 5:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song?" this way also makes sense lyrically because the word "love" mostly falls on the one beat. this is how i hear the beats 1&2&3&4& *** * <3jo  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by Ben S on 11/6/2009, 5:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song?" Hmmm... Anders may be right. I'm certainly less sure now. Yeah, this sort of dissection is loads of fun. I hope there's more in the future, especially involving chords--there I'm on surer footing. p.s. The point that if a rhythm is hard to get your ear around it's a sign that you're parsing it wrong it is a good one. I can nevertheless think of a few counterexamples. Here's a good one: Check out this cover of Djavan's song "Sina" by Caetano Veloso. I've been listening to this song for almost twenty years now, and I still can't hear it the "right" way. I'll let you all figure out what that right way is. If you want help, it's slightly easier to hear in the original.  Post a Response

Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song? Posted by casey on 11/6/2009, 5:35 pm, in reply to "Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song?" Message modified by user casey 11/6/2009, 5:37 pm you can follow the beat from the beginning of the song by thinking of the lowest bass/kick hit as beat one. i'm pretty sure that's correct. no hope! see? that's what gives me guts. big f/ucking shit! right now, man.  Post a Response

Sina / Caetano Veloso & Djavan Posted by Anders on 11/9/2009, 4:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Where the hell is beat one in this song?" Message modified by user Anders 11/9/2009, 7:41 pm Cool, Ben. I think "Sina" is an excellent example of how our ears are trained by our cultures to hear rhythm in certain ways. In other words, I wouldn't expect most folks who grew up listening to American popular music to find this rhythm intuitive at all (but I bet everyone can still tap their foot to it). "Sina" emphasizes a basic cultural difference: in American popular music as we know it there is an emphasis on 1 and the back beat, 2 & 4. In a lot of other musics that emphasis on 1 is not the same, and 2 & 4 are treated differently. You're right, it is easier with the Djavan version. I can hear this rhythm with much thanks to my man Paolo from the Dominican Republic. We used to play drums together about 12 years ago. He taught me GaGa and some Afro Cuban rhythms. I realize Djavan and Caetano Veloso are both Brazilian, but this basic rhythm is similar to GaGa (I used the same rhythm on my song "My Ideal" on my CD "Ox" 6 years ago or so, does anybody have that?) and I can also illustrate something it has in common with some reggae beats. Paolo is a great drummer. He seemed to be worlds ahead of me in the development of his musicality. To me his body seemed so free that he could play anything. But as much as he blew me away, he was mystified by my jazz playing and even what I thought of as simple beats in 4/4. We were each responding to the others' different cultural environment coming through the drum set. I study this stuff. I keep expanding my vocabulary, but it may always be difficult to pick out the clave, the key to the rhythmic foundation on which Afro Cuban music is based, especially because this rhythm isn't always played but it's understood as a counterpoint that holds together the various rhythms/parts. It's definitely a cultural thing but I expect I will recognize the clave more easily over time. At the end of the verse there is a turnaround (on the Caetano Veloso cover it hits for the first time at :55 seconds; on the Djavan it's at 1:24, both land on the 1) with a syncopated rhythm with accents on: '1,' '&-of-2,' and '4.' This is the same as a 3:2 Son Clave, so it may be that these musicians can relate to that throughout the song. The second measure of the turnaround is just accented quarter notes: '1, 2, 3, 4.' If you can keep your count from there, it's probably the easiest way to catch this rhythm if it is unfamiliar to you. Indeed it may seem backwards at first. The bass drum plays '2 &,' '4 &' -- that's where we're culturally oriented to hearing the backbeat on the snare drum, so it may seem backwards or flipped. What a great song! Thanks, Ben  Post a Response

Re: Sina / Caetano Veloso & Djavan Posted by Ben S on 11/10/2009, 2:02 pm, in reply to "Sina / Caetano Veloso & Djavan" Glad you like the song; it's one of my favorites, even if the rhythm throws me. I love the way it has this soaring feeling that is tied down by the steady heartbeat rhythm. Also the chords and melody are very effective. And I really love the vocal riffing in the original recording. Yeah, using the turnaround is how I initially decoded the rhythm, exactly as you describe, by working backwards from it. I could hardly believe the beat was really what that method revealed; it wasn't until I was able to track down the Djavan original years later (man, I forget how hard it was to find stuff before the internet) that I was convinced that I had figured it out correctly. Precisely as you say--the bass drum and snare in the Caetano Veloso version are deceptively similar to a rock beat. Let's hear it for pushing our boundaries and expanding our vocabularies!  Post a Response

Re: Sina / Caetano Veloso & Djavan Posted by Anders on 11/10/2009, 3:43 pm, in reply to "Re: Sina / Caetano Veloso & Djavan" Nice goin'. "I could hardly believe the beat was really what that method revealed" Yeah, especially because that leaves beat 1 almost completely empty going back to the verse. Sounds strange coming from here, but not so much in their hemisphere.  Post a Response

Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record? Posted by Bee K on 11/6/2009, 6:46 pm, in reply to "Where the hell is beat one in this song?" Message modified by user Bee K 11/6/2009, 7:20 pm What's with the subtle, little, rock snob jabs at this tune? Knocking this song outside of the album's context is like knocking "Wild Honey Pie." Great production, some of the most effective usage of Auto Tune on any record, harrowing overall feel, great lyrics. Just me and Robert Christgau, I guess. Especially since it's obvious that the 1 beat starts right before the vocals (which kick on on an accented 2/8). Don't knock the song, especially if you can't figure out where the downbeat is. And God said, "let there be free will."  Post a Response

this song has always fuc ked with my head. Posted by pablo das on 11/6/2009, 10:23 pm, in reply to "Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record?" Not the rhythm...The chord progression and the relationships between the bass/guitar/vocals in the verses especially makes no sense to me at all. I marvel at the artistry of this song. I think it's a masterpiece but created by pop alien geniuses. I don't comprehend it at all! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oqXVx3sBOk (no embedding...sorry)  Post a Response

Re: this song has always fuc ked with my head. Posted by soce on 11/7/2009, 2:56 am, in reply to "this song has always fuc ked with my head." This is actually the only Kanye album I have bought, and I like the whole album quite a lot. It first I thought Pablo was correct, but after listening longer, I feel Ben S is correct, esp because that's when the bongo drums come in. But you could pretty much listen to it either way if you wanted to, like that spinning lady who spins left or right, depending on how you look at her. behold...  Post a Response

Re: this song has always fuc ked with my head. Posted by Ben S on 11/10/2009, 2:12 pm, in reply to "this song has always fuc ked with my head." Wow, those are fascinating and counterintuive changes. You wouldn't think they'd work, but the contour of the melody holds them together. There's also a good lesson for Songwriting 101 there: put the adventurous stuff in the verses so that the chorus is more direct and thus more intense. At some point in the mid-90s I decided that the ideal song should involve someone shouting "Woohoo!" Right after that "Song 2" came out. I'll always think fondly of Blur for being so in touch with my personal zeitgeist back then. Until this song, though, I'd never heard anything else by them. I'm intrigued; I'll have to check out more.  Post a Response

Re: Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record? Posted by Anders on 11/10/2009, 3:39 pm, in reply to "Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record?" Message modified by user Anders 11/10/2009, 3:49 pm You got the downbeat wrong, Ben. The vocal comes in on the & of 3, like so: &-of-3 , 4 , &-of-4 , 1 - I'm -- not -- Lov - in' This way, when he hits the chorus, "Love" lands on 1, like so: &-of-3 , 4 , &-of-4 , 1 - So - keep - your - Love This is a cut time beat so the back beat sounds on 3 (instead of 2 & 4). If you count it in double time the back beat will land on 2 & 4 for you. And, yeah, I don't like it, but maybe you weren't talking to me, because I wasn't "subtle," I said, "horrible track." Maybe that was "subtle" because I didn't explain why?... To be fair, I didn't give it much of a chance, probably because I can't stand "auto tune" or vocoders, so I can't attest to the lyrics. Also, I don't think pop music is necessarily meant to be taken in the context of an album anymore. More than ever, in pop, single songs are advertised and sold, not albums.  Post a Response

Re: Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record? Posted by Bee K on 11/10/2009, 4:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record?" Also, I don't think pop music is necessarily meant to be taken in the context of an album anymore. More than ever, in pop, single songs are advertised and sold, not albums. Kanye's projects have all been conceptual so far you should spin the whole thing late night one night run on sentence atcha. And God said, "let there be free will."  Post a Response

Re: Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record? Posted by Bee K on 11/10/2009, 4:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record?" You're right on the down beat, though, not sure how I missed that the first time. And God said, "let there be free will."  Post a Response

Re: Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record? Posted by Anders on 11/10/2009, 5:33 pm, in reply to "Re: Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record?" Message modified by user Anders 11/10/2009, 5:55 pm Coming from you, Ben, I'll take a listen. I just assumed, despite the warnings of my 4th grade teacher (never to assume), that Kanye was a strictly "pop" guy. I might have known from "Love Lockdown" that there are other things at work. I'll put it in my sit down queue.  Post a Response

ps ~ Re: Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record? Posted by Anders on 11/10/2009, 5:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record?" ps -- it's cool that you missed the downbeat the first time. That just means you got your ears open. Same reason you recommended the Kanye record. It is possible to hear things myriad ways when you open up your ears. But when you went back to see where the count falls you heard that too. Good stuff.  Post a Response

He (Kanye) will never be better than Posted by Brer on 11/10/2009, 6:36 pm, in reply to "ps ~ Re: Am I the only one who thought 808s & Heartbreak was a great record?" the first time I heard "Gold Digga"(er?) which was at the teabag open mic when it was still cool... "Jesus Walks" was a pretty powerful song. Made a pretty big impression on the church crowd. "George Bush doesn't care about Black people" = the truth. Funny and sad at the same time. Might not ever listen to the new album straight through. I'll be too busy trying to top Bullshit Society. Frappe le rue, Jacques. Et ne me retour non plus non plus non plus non plus  Post a Response

Perpetually mystified by.... Posted by Steve E on 11/10/2009, 7:08 pm, in reply to "Where the hell is beat one in this song?" ....the "Linus and Lucy theme" from those Charlie Brown specials. For years I thought the tune started on the one. Then I heard an 80's rerecording by Vince Guaraldi (who played and wrote the original) and it was all off-beats!!! If I strain my cerebrum, far more than I like, and tap my fingers in succession, I can piece together how I am "supposed" to hear it. The weird thing is, no one else I know seems to have this problem "getting" it. I think I ran a trench in my brain at too early an age. "Drive My Car" by the Beatles....similar thing in the intro. Either it has an extra beat somewhere, or I am just hearing it backwards.  Post a Response

Re: Perpetually mystified by.... Posted by Bee K on 11/10/2009, 11:16 pm, in reply to "Perpetually mystified by...." Message modified by user Bee K 11/10/2009, 11:17 pm god dammit, steve, i've just played the beginning of that song ten times and an hour ago i didn't care. what have you done to me? Ringo's drum fill starts on the one. It's the guitar and bass before that throws you for a loop. I think what they did was probably have Ringo just kick on an off beat. They're just jamming in the beginning. And God said, "let there be free will."  Post a Response

Drive My Car Posted by Ben S on 11/11/2009, 9:21 am, in reply to "Perpetually mystified by...." ... is straightforward once you figure it out. Here's how to crack it: ignore the bass and drums and focus on the guitar. First off, there's an eighth-note pickup. So the rhythm of the guitar riff is: and One and two and three ... four and ... and two and three ... four Once you get that rhythm down listen to the riff and count along. You'll notice that the bass and then the drums each come in on the three of their respective measures. From then on you'll hear it right, and you'll wonder why it was so hard to hear in the first place. And here's why: since the third note of the riff is a D, the root, and because the riff rises to that D and then descends from it, it feels like it should be the one, when in fact it is the and of one. So from then on you're off an eighth beat, and when it resolves it feels like there's an extra beat.  Post a Response

Re: Perpetually mystified by.... Posted by casey on 11/11/2009, 10:02 am, in reply to "Perpetually mystified by...." Vince Guaraldi is a frickin genius! no hope! see? that's what gives me guts. big f/ucking shit! right now, man.  Post a Response

Still confusing Posted by Bee K on 11/11/2009, 4:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Perpetually mystified by...." Ben, you are right (I just tracked my voice over the song on Garage Band to figure it out) but I think you're only right technically, because the beat exists. I don't think they planned to start on the "and" before the one. I think they just jammed on the riff and told ringo to come on an unexpected beat to confuse people. And God said, "let there be free will."  Post a Response

Re: Still confusing Posted by Anders on 11/12/2009, 1:18 pm, in reply to "Still confusing" Message modified by user Anders 11/12/2009, 1:20 pm I'm not convinced that's right even "technically" because I don't think the quartet note is consistent from the intro in to the top (I mean it's the same tempo, but you don't get the full count between the end of Ringo's fill and the downbeat). I don't think this intro was ever performed as a band at all (unless performed it after the record was done). I think this is an edit. Playing around in the studio and they spliced this mini collage to serve as an intro.  Post a Response

Re: Still confusing Posted by Costello on 11/15/2009, 11:44 am, in reply to "Re: Still confusing" I've been doing online research all day for five days, and this thread was a most welcome escape from the History of Belarus. Thank you so much.  Post a Response

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