Posted by Matty on June 24, 2010, 15:28:53 Message modified by board administrator June 26, 2010, 15:12:40
For some very good (and some not-so-good) reasons, few subjects generate more confusion among modellers than do subs - and particularly the USN Fleet Boats, of WWII and (long) beyond, throughout most of the Cold War. The "Gatos" - a name from the first boat of the first class, is often loosely applied as well to the following two classes - "Balao" and "Tench", respectively - whose hulls were all three (at least) outwardly very similar in appearance.
However - particularly in terms of above-surface appearance - all these boats present the modeller with a constantly "moving target", from practically the day each was launched. Almost everything about their external fit - conning towers ("sails"), ballast-tank air-vent ("limber") hole patterns, deck armament and even the shapes of their bows and hull lengths - were, over the service life of each boat changed, to one degree or another - and all very non-uniformly, from boat-to-boat. Thus, it can be difficult even to name most of the observed fits, without running afoul of, if not creating yet more, major confusion. In this thread, my best info - as well as your submissions and responses - will attempt to compile the clearest and most broadly understandable descriptions of some of these many fits - which I hope you can enjoy and make good use of.
Surrounding Terry's Fleet Boat conversion is the larger question of which kits are available (at least, in plastic), and what (resin) accessories could go with them. (Brass- and stainless-steel PE being available from all the usual outlets).
Starting in the largest-available scale (AFAIK), as already mentioned there is the (new) Revell 1:72 scale Gato:
This kit depicts a mid- to late-WWII fleet sub fit - with extensively cut-down/AA-armed sail - and is in no sense a "bare foundation", but a beautifully detailed and apparently highly accurate depiction. Accurate to what specific boat(s) - or whether to Gato herself - and during what specific time period(s), I don't know.
Several aftermarket manufacturers, including White Ensign Models, (I think) L'Arsenal, definitely Nautilus Models and IBS/East Coast Armory quickly jumped on making accessories - mostly alternative/upgraded weapons - however the latter two, Nautilus and IBS began (and apparently will continue) expanding into much more extensive conversions for this kit, and between them their selection of WWII-era sails is already impressive, particularly IBS, which is apparently aiming to cover every USN fleet boat, at any time during WWII - a truly mammoth undertaking. In addition, IBS is also undertaking to offer most, if not eventually all, of the post-WWII "Fleet Snorkel" and "Guppy" conversions - again a very tall order, to cover the entire range, but they have already made quite a good start.
The two primary drawbacks of any of the above options, for the 1:72 fleet boat are: 1) expense - neither the base kit, nor (especially) the conversion sets are what you would call "inexpensive" - and, 2) size. While the latter is actually a great benefit to R/C modellers, at 4 feet or so in length, you've got to have some serious room to store (and to decently view) this model. Size, in turn also feeds back into cost, as everything from paint, to putty, to glue and even mounting materials will add up to significant expense.
Both the above can be reduced by (more than) half, using the next-smaller (plastic) kit - at half the size - namely the Trumpeter 1:144 Gato:
This was the initial boxing - the "As-Built" USS Gato - which was followed by a mid-WWII USS Gato molding, which included "Cut-Down" sail and the (first) modified limber hole pattern applied to Gato herself, though not to the majority of other fleet boats, during the majority of WWII. Both molds appear to be quite accurate to their respective depictions - very much appreciated from Trumpeter, in particular, who have a nasty record of introducing some major innaccuracy or other - usually into the (below-waterline) hull.
Again, when this kit first came out there was the "mad rush" and competition among the "usual suspects" - the aftermarket manufacturers, above - to provide alternate/improved deck- and AA guns for it. And again, IBS and Nautilus Models embarked on far larger product lines, including much more extensive conversions, in whose releases - including again the distinctive post-WWII conversions - IBS is currently ahead, but at the same time, Nautilus' offerings are predominantly of different WWII subjects than chosen by IBS, with significantly more, including several postwar fits, promised for future release by Nautilus.
Just slightly smaller - but with disproportionately large savings, on not just accessories but particularly the kit itself, which is an old classic of widespread circulation, still in production to boot - is the Revell 1:178 scale Lionfish:
This kit being so old, there are first of all some innaccuracies in the mold, including the limber hole- and weld-line patterns - not correct for any fleet boat, ever, AFAIK - and some modellers have also pointed out slight inaccuracies in some hull dimensions. However the former are only in raised-releif outlines - very easily sanded off, in correction - and the latter, whatever their true extent, do not detract from a very convincing appearance of the hull for a fleet boat.
Again, due to the age of this mold, accessory lines are also pretty old - such that some have become very extensive, while others, originally also very large in selection, are by now seeing (at least) several discontinuations. IBS provides an example of the former, with their original, penultimate line of post-WWII conversions - including even a whole Guppy (streamlined) bow replacement - with yet more apparently coming under development still. Nautilus Models also had a substantial line of upgrades, of which many - predominantly for WWII fits, but also including (at least) one postwar "Fleet Snorkel/Guppy" sail - are still offered, though several others have now been discontinued. Still - again, due to the age/distribution involved - many of these can be found on eBay and/or model shows, if you can do some searching for them.
Finally, for a very manageably small project - in size, complexity and particularly in expense (which is definitely where I come in ) - modellers can consider the Lindberg 1:250 scale "Gato":
"Gato" in quotes, above, because - typical of many (especially older) Lindberg kits - the mold contains features of other disparate fits/classes: a small, Cut-Down type of sail much more typical of the Balao class in WWII, as well as raised deck planking - which didn't appear until post-WWII. Still, sail itself - while lacking in detail, along with the rest of the mold - has the correct overall dimensions, as does the hull (though the latter has a strangely upward-flaring contour, aft. As such, the kit does provide a suitable foundation for improvement/conversion - particularly at the price of as little as $3 or so, in the toylike boxing, above. Undoubtedly due to the latter, no aftermarket accessories (AFAIK) have ever been released for this kit, by anyone. However, low cost is precisely what could enable extensive correction/conversion, at reasonable total expense.
The original, 50-plus-year-old molding of this kit - IIRC first released by "O-Line" - did, I believe have an As-Built Gato sail (of unknown fidelity). However such an antique, if still in any kind of decent shape, would today be a collectors item worth far more untouched, than the cost of most if not all the above options. A built, "boneyard" example, however, might again be obtainable (at very low price) on eBay, etc..
In any case, this mold could serve as foundation for an upgrade/conversion both large enough to display significant detail, while small enough for very convenient accommodation, and exhibit.
"...My father in law...earned his dolphins on the USS Spinax in 1950 - 1960 after it had been refit to resemble the conning tower in (this) photo:
"...my father-in-law...told me that the boat was in the earlier configuration (as depicted in) in the Revell Gato 1/72 (kit)...when he was assigned to it. But he was with it when it went for the modification to the (style seen in the above) photo. And he said it had a cigarette deck also. It was in this configuration that he earned his Dolphins...I'd like to build my Revell...Gato 1/72...model into his Spinax. It won't have to be super accurate but at least look fairly close to the Spinax in the configuration as shown (above)...Does anyone know if there is a conversion set made to convert the early conning tower in the Revell Gato 1/72 sub to a later Tench class type tower...Alternately, is there a sub kit made of the Tench class that I could use as a reference to scratchbuild a new conning tower ?"
Matty here - and Welcome Aboard ModelFleet, Terry! I think I have (most, perhaps not all) the answers you need, but let me first head-off, as best I can, some potential confusion in the descriptions of these boats.
Although the "typical" WWII conning tower ("sail") - as in your Revell 1:72 kit - did indeed come earlier than the one on your '50s-era Spinax, the former was not the earliest design of the sail, which actually predated WWII, appearing only on Gatos (as the Balaos and Tench's had not yet been laid down), and often called the "As-Built Gato" type of sail:
Click on Image to Enlarge
For quick examples, I have borrowed these pics of models from Mario Grima's website (see below). At left is a depiction of the As-Built Gato sail. During WWII, as shown at right, these were cut down - in an almost bewildering number of variations - each almost unique to its boat and time frame, but broadly as a group, called "Cut Down" sails, and were fitted to all three of the Gato-, subsequent Balao- and finally the Tench class boats - as would the subsequent, post-WWII sails, as well. So, your sail cannot be described in terms of the Tench class, so much as in the evolution of the sails themselves, independent of class.
In the above trend to cut down the As-Built Gato sails, one of the first things to go was the cigarette deck - first its splinter (side) shielding, and then the deck footprint itself - replaced by a flared/rounded or completely circular deck for AA (machine- and/or heavier caliber) guns. However post-WWII, the sails were built back up again - even further than the original - with much greater streamlining. Your Spinax is the first such example I have ever seen in which the cigarette deck was reinstated after WWII, so of course I also don't know what name - if any - this particular fit may have been given. However it does strongly resemble some of the later sail types, and we can certainly determine its place in their evolutionary "tree":
Click on Image to Enlarge
Again, for quick examples, these are all pictures of models from Mario's gallery. At left, the earliest named of these modifications (that I know of, anyway), were the "Fleet Snorkel" conversions - and note the design variations (of I don't know how many, total), one of which, at bottom-right (foreground), sports a front end looking very much like that on your Spinax' sail. This particular variant of stepped sail (I won't even get into the specific naming/ID of these, because it gives me agida ) was, along with the others, apparently continued through the initial (series I & -II) "Guppy" refits (center), though the final Guppy (-III) refit abandoned all of them for the "Atlantic High Sail", at right.
Note, however, that none of the above retain one key feature - just as your father-in-law implied: the cigarette decks have been completely faired-over, never again (AFAIK) to reappear. Thus, your Spinax sail must be either a very early(iest) variant of the Fleet Snorkel fit - or if not, then surely its immediate predecessor - so, (until corrected) let's call it the "Proto-Fleet Snorkel" sail.
Obviously, per the above I don't know of any kit- nor conversion specifically for your Proto-Fleet Snorkel sail. However, we have now seen some aftermarket sails matching (very nearly, if not exactly) your Spinax sail's front end, and others which closely if not exactly match the aft end (i.e., cigarette deck). Regarding the former - at 1:72 scale, per your new Revell Gato - Mario Grima does make a stepped Fleet Snorkel/early Guppy sail with the specific type of front end discussed above - which can be found here (scroll down), under "Electric Boat Step Sail Style 1 (Fleet Snorkel...". However, you'd have to chop off - or sculpt the entire cigarette deck out of - the entire after half of this (not cheap) accessory. Better to use it as a reference - just as you wisely anticipated, above - in a conversion using something which already has the cigarette deck - and considerably more: an As-Built Gato sail upgrade.
Although it may not look it, at first glance, the As-Built Gato sail has all the (at least) basic elements you are looking for - needing only to be chopped and padded a bit, here and there - for which you now have (at least) two aftermarket upgrade options, in 1:72 scale: again, IBS/East Coast Armory's As-Built Gato sail, which Mario describes as "Style III: E(lectric) B(oat Division) 1941 'As Built' Gato", and likewise James Corley makes a 1:72 Nautilus Models As-Built Gato sail, which James describes as: "...designed to represent the early flight of Electric Boat GATOs as they were initially designed and constructed...".
Starting from an As-Built Gato sail, as above, it looks to me like you would first want to cut off about 1/3 of the total height, from the base. (You'll lose the door detail, etc., but this is probably incorrect - as are the climbing rungs placement - for your fit, anyway.) Then chop (or leave-) off the wind deflector, and trim (or leave-) off the roof aft from there, flush with the forward roof. Re-"plate" this over, and add a large slab to the periscope/mast shears (or just replace them) to make for the proper height/shape. Round down the forward roof corners as much as the parts (thickness) will allow, fill in some portholes and cut an open cockpit into it, etc., per the stepped sail references, above. That should all be pretty easy to do - and my recommendation to get you well within the ballpark you're looking for.
I hope this helps, Terry (and All Y'all) - do keep us posted on how you make out with it!
...As a good Model Fleeter, I indeed have one of the old Revell Lionfish kits tucked away in the stash.
I've wanted to build her one of two ways. First, as Cod SS-224, which was my personal play toy growing up in Cleveland. Something I didn't find out until the mid-90s is that she is the LAST completely unmodified Fleet boat; that is; she's not even had ladders cut into her for the tourists - if you want in, you do it through the fore and aft escape hatches. She looks exactly the way she did on VJ Day. If you can get aboard her or have someone to get pics, you can get accuracy to an unparalleled degree. On the other hand, I'd love to go Full Guppy and build her as Clamagore SS-343/GUPPY III as she sits today at Patriot's Point. Fortunately, the IBS and Nautilus sets are out there to do the conversion work - but for both I am wondering how to redo the limber holes once you've got the raised markings sanded smooth. First, as you mentioned, the limber holes aren't accurate for any Fleet boat - but my understanding (and I will happily confess to error here)is that each boat and/or contractor had distinctive hole patterns that are as individual as a fingerprint. I did the Revell U-47 cutaway many years ago and cut out the limber holes with an X-Acto and a file...not inclined to do THAT again, though. On top of that, the model is big enough that after you've got the limber holes cut, you can see through them, which means at least a partial pressure hull and everything that goes with it. Thoughts, sir?
Once you've got limber holes, blocking the light is really easy - you don't need to build the inner hull (which you're not going to see, anyway), but just a light baffle - a black-painted plate, hanging down from underneath the deck piece.
The limber holes themselves are more problematic. On his Grouper, Rick Nelson ended up just painting them on - but I like to see real holes in there. A perforated resin replacement slab is what obviously first came to mind. But then again, as you say there's the wide variation in hole-patterns between (practically) each and every boat - so a single replacement pattern, only applicable to one or two, would hardly be cost-effective to develop.
Where my thinking (I'm not going to say product development, as I'm so far behind on so many others) currently leans is toward finding the elements most common to all the hole-patterns, so that a "generic foundation" of holes might be provided, which would cut down to a minimum the remaining work the builder would have to do, to finish out the precise pattern for his subject. This is first of all a huge research project (already well underway), and then a mastering challenge (at least, done the way I would want to) of some complexity.
That's the best I've been able to come up with, so far...
Cheers,
-Matty
The general consensus is going to be "bigger is better."
Maybe not, but more worth the work. IBS and Nautilus have templates to drill out the holes, but only on the 72nd scale Revell. I guess it was deemed to be just too much work in a smaller scale. What you could do tho, would be to buy the 72nd scale drilling sheets and then scan them. Once you did that you could shrink them to your heart's delight to fit the Revhell Lionfish or Trump boat.