Posted by Rick Tsujimura (via Matty) on December 19, 2009, 1:24:05 Message modified by board administrator December 20, 2009, 11:18:35
A Matt Stein Models customer, who I hereby designate "Rick-B" (as he is the second "Rick" to appear here in quick succession) writes:
"...I have checked (ModelFleet) and as always (am) awestruck by other modellers. I'm just joe average or under, reliving my childhood with the stuff I had and blew up at new years as a kid. I just bought a (Revell 1/540) midway and wanted to do the boxart w/the (Matty's Models) savages.
(I'm also) trying to get one each of the (Revell 1/540) essex angle decks, so far got a wasp, bon homme richard and lexington, looking for/bidding on a hornet...
...do you know of any source for additional phantoms f-4b/n for 1/550 (scale carriers?)...Second, do you know if there are any suitable photoetch 1/550 crew for the revell essex/forrestal class carriers?..."
Matty here again. And Rick, let me take your second question (by far the easier one) first: the remarkable Gold Medal Models'Midway/Forrestal/Essex PE set is still in production and contains (as you can see in the linked pic) some roughly 70 (I counted 68) crewmen, in quite a variety of poses. It is a truly remarkable PE set for the money, with virtually every piece being useable on exactly the Revell carriers you mentioned.
And (at least) one other which you didn't, but which I am going to infer you are building: a Forrestal-class (or later) supercarrier. Because the Phantom came after your straight-decked Midway fit, and was never deployed operationally from any Essex-class CV (in any fit) - as the "Double-Ugly"'s afterburners were simply too hot (on takeoff, as I understand it) for the un-armored decks to sustain.
In this general scale (circa 1/500-600), there were never any aftermarket, accessory Phantom-IIs and, of the kits containing them, none are still in production, so I would go to eBay and search for such kits - or collections of planes stripped out of them. The question of just which kits to seek is an interesting one regarding Forrestal-class releases, of which there have been many over the years:
Click on Image to Enlarge
The first in my recollection (though even earlier may have been the Revell Forrestal, below) was the Aurora 1/600 Forrestal, whose classic box-art is shown at left, on top. Too early to include Phantoms, its '50s-era complement of planes also were uniformly (except for the F11-F Tiger) lousy to the point of giving offense - no doubt the reason a later reissue by Monogram (left, at bottom) would replace them all with later-model aircraft of very high fidelity, including the F-4 shown at right. Based solely on length (wingspan cannot be used in these slightly off-side pics) as an F-4B it scales to 1/616. Note also at bottom-right, its nose and canopy are well-defined and look very good for a Phantom-II, as do its upturned wingtips and downturned tail "stabilator"s as well - the best F-4 in this (general) scale, marginally better than the Revell version (see below).
The excellent info site on classic-kits (and more), Rajendra's List, dates the first Monogram "re-issue (circa 1978)...", and lists boxings as Forrestal, Saratoga (as mine, above), and Independence. If you can find any of these with F-4s intact, Rick, snag 'em.
Yet a third 1/600 Forrestal - a completely different mold - was released by Airfix:
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However, like the Aurora it contained only earlier, '50s-era aircraft - although unlike the Aurora's, these are of rather high quality. Rajens' List notes for this kit: "...20 aircraft...for 1957 but, the funnel is of the rectangular post-1959 type...". Despite our own determination that Forrestal embarked F-4s immediately following this 1959 refit and - more to the point - the fact that this kit was subsequently re-issued numerous times, according to Rajendra's also by MPC and Heller, as late as 1990 - I still find no evidence that its aircraft were ever changed/modernized to include the Rhino.
Still, we're not (hardly) finished yet:
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At left are two boxings of Revell's 1/540 Forrestal, the one at top as early as 1956 (I know - but the copyright is molded right there on the hull!) - which, once again of course was before the Double Ugly even joined the fleet. However, somewhere in the course of many re-releases over the decades, this kit's aircraft were upgraded/modernized, as the most recent boxing, at bottom-left (which molds may even still be in production) contains F-14s, F-18s and their contemporaries. Again, Rajens' list points out numerous "...re-issues (including) Forrestal... Saratoga... Ranger...(and) Independence...up to the 1970s...", so like Mikey I was sure this kit must have at some point, been repopped with a set of '60s/'70s aircraft including the F-4 - particularly as Revell was known to have mastered one, as shown at right. However Rajens' goes on to suggest that Revell's Forrestal "refits" skipped this era entirely, saying "...In 1989, the mold was updated to represent the Forrestal & Saratoga after their SLEP refit...aircraft on the updated version include...Tomcats...Hornets...Vikings, and...Intruder/Prowlers...".
Again, Revell did in fact produce an F-4 in this scale, as shown at right - almost as good as the Monogram F-4, above, and scaling out to 1/581 (again by length, for an F-4B). However it did not come in a Forrestal-class release but in the following re-issue of their angled-deck Essex-class mold:
And only in this re-boxing, AFAIK: the Revell 1/540 Lexington training carrier (AVT). Even though this ship is 100% incorrect for the Rhino (and note a conspicuous absence of the latter in the box art, here) which did not operate from any Essex, ever! Still, this boxing is the only Revell release in which to look for the additional F-4s you're after - and not in your anti-submarine Essex (CVS) Wasp (nor Hornet), nor attack Essexes (CVAs) Bon Homme Richard and (earlier) Lexington, as you obviously must already have discovered, if you have them, Rick. IIRC Advent also released this kit - with different box art, but still Lexington ATV-16 and all else identical - just look for orange-marked (training) aircraft, in whatever graphic is on the box. And the even better news is these training-carrier Lexington AVT-16 re-issues were both numerous and, because some of the most recent, also the lowest-priced (generally speaking) of all the Revell Essex kits - particularly if snagging a boneyard model for (basically) just its F-4s.
And now you tell me you already know all this! Fine - but I will still lay it all out, including a couple more, much lower-quality options - though I'm running out of room here, so will post them in a "response", below.
One more thing, though:
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I noted this excellent little SkyWave (nominally) 1/700 scale F-4 - from their multi-kit "Scramble" boxings, depicting Cold War confrontations between aircraft and submarines - hoping their aircraft might actually be closer to 1/600 scale, as we had determined for some of their other (guns) accessories. However this little Rhino scales - again for the F-4B, by length, to 1/711 - so I guess at least some SkyWave 1/700 parts really are that small. But just look at how excellent it is (despite being horribly out of focus) you can see it even has delicate panel lines, and all shapes/angles/contours correct - actually better than either of the two larger ones, above! (And clearly suggesting what could be done in 1/550 scale, particularly in resin...)
Anyway Rick-B, Welcome Aboard ModelFleet, buddy - and (also for everybody) I hope the above helps.
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: Chasing PHANTOMS
Posted by Kevin McClure on December 21, 2009, 22:27:22, in reply to "Chasing PHANTOMS"
Rick: My Wasp build is based on the Revell Lexington trainer carrier mentioned above. I'll look to see if it came with the planes (I just don't remember), if it did, I'll be happy to send you the Phantoms..... Kevin
Re: Chasing PHANTOMS
Posted by Rick Tsujimura on December 22, 2009, 14:14:31, in reply to "Re: Chasing PHANTOMS"
Kevin, many thanks. If available let me know cost and will remunerate.
Re: Chasing PHANTOMS
Posted by Kevin McClure on December 23, 2009, 9:34:44, in reply to "Re: Chasing PHANTOMS"
Rick: I looked - and now remember why I got the Lexington at a good price - the air wing had been stripped out! Sorry. I have a bunch of 1/700 Phantoms, and I'm going down to my LHS today to rummage through his storage area for some Revell box scale stuff. I am told he has a huge stash of ships from a collection he bought, so don't give up the ship - yet! Kevin
Phossible Phantom Phlaces...
Posted by Mike Kozlowski on December 23, 2009, 23:24:32, in reply to "Re: Chasing PHANTOMS"
...Give the gift shop at Patriot's Point SC a call (Homeport of USS Yorktown), as well as the ones at USS Hornet, USS Lexington, and USS Midway. Places like that tend to offer up occasional treasures at reasonable prices, and they might have a couple of old Essex kits on a shelf. Aside to Matt - last time I was at Patriot Point, the place was overflowing with Revell Lionfish kits.
Mike
Re: Chasing PHANTOMS
Posted by Rick Tsujimura on December 23, 2009, 14:46:14, in reply to "Re: Chasing PHANTOMS"
Kevin, thanks for searching. Appreciate it buddy!
Re: Chasing PHANTOMS
Posted by Kevin McClure on December 26, 2009, 17:37:51, in reply to "Re: Chasing PHANTOMS"
Rick: I made the promised trip to my LHS - CRM Hobbies - an awesome shop much like Colpar in Denver or Venture in Chicagoland - in the city of St. Louis. Went back into the warehouse - found the ship collection he had purchased, some carriers - but sadly, no boxings with Phantoms. He had the Revell Battle of Midway Yorktown class kit, an Independence (with the older air wing), and an FDR. Sorry! He eBays these kind of kits frequently, but will generally sell them to me at about $15 to $30, which for an OOP kit is quite fair IMHO. I'll keep my eyes and ears open though, and Chris (the Owner) knows what I'm looking for..... Thanks, Kevin
Re: Chasing PHANTOMS
Posted by Rick Tsujimura on December 26, 2009, 19:52:47, in reply to "Re: Chasing PHANTOMS"
Thanks Kevin. I've heard of CRM and seen their adverts in the magazines and online. I guess I'll keep on looking, but the good news is I lucked out recently and acquired a Renwal Shangrila. Many thanks for looking. Have a great new year!. Rick
BAD Rhino! The "One-View Syndrome"
Posted by Matty on December 20, 2009, 14:35:22, in reply to "Chasing PHANTOMS" Message modified by board administrator December 20, 2009, 15:30:37
Further to your request about Phantom-IIs, Rick, in roughly 1/500-600 scale there are 3 more kits I want to mention.
The first I have actually never seen, but assume it had F-4s: the Nichimo 1/500 Enterprise supercarrier. Depicting her original fit, it should certainly have included Rhinos, which - especially if similar in quality to Nichimo's other 1/500 (IJN carrier) aircraft - could well have been truly excellent. (Think: crisp, accurate contours and delicate raised panel lines, including even canopy framing.) Although Rajendra's List does not (yet) review this OOP kit, astronomical eBay prices for it could well indicate the above, high quality - as well as the reason I don't have one to show you!
What I do have, to complete the survey, includes the absolute worst "F-4", ever:
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The ARII 1/600 modernized nuclear Enterprise, at top, has extensive aircraft accessory sprues including a Phantom-II depiction, shown at bottom, which is clearly a victim of "One-View-Mastering Syndrome". This is where the creator(s) obviously lacked a standard, "3-view" aircraft drawing but had only one, overhead-view to work from - clearly having never seen a decent picture of the real thing - and consequently with absolutely no idea what the depth contours should resemble (and/or perhaps didn't care, either). At bottom, note the absolutely flat wings and tail surfaces (though in fairness lacking the rudder, provided as a separate part).
I can just see the East Asian technician, puzzling over his measly single, overhead drawing and talking to his source on the phone: "Yeah, all I can tell you is they also called it 'The Rhino'..." - and hanging up, to go on to create this ridiculous hump-backed confection, replete even with a horn for a nose! Though personally, I think it looks more like a muk-luk-wearing bear cub, whose nose was pulled out by Rudyard Kipling's alligator of the "How the Elephant Got His Trunk" fable. ) While recognizeable from overhead as a Double-Ugly - scaling out to 1/636 (again, by length) for an F-4B - it is really the worst "Phantom-II" I've ever seen.
Worse even than the version provided by the "gold standard" for offensively crappy jets (in this scale):
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The Trumpeter 1/500 supercarrier, at top, released as most if not all of the Nimitz class and later supercarriers. In contrast to ARII, above, Trumpeter personnel seem at least to have known the Phantom-II had a straight back - and probably also that it had "coke-bottle" fuselage sides - but in the latter case it appears they just cut corners with a very crude depiction, as shown at bottom - clear down to the offensively thick wings and stabilators which, ironically, makes them easier to fix (by sculpting) than ARII's thinner ones, above. The one thing this Rhino does have over the competition is that it's the beefiest, scaling out (approximately, again by length only) to 1/519, for an F-4B.
So - especially for this Trumpeter kit - the Double-Ugly could have been worse - a lot worse - for example, take a look at these:
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Also from the Trumpeter 1/500 supercarrier kit, two monstrosities looking like Predator drones (admittedly, again without their separate rudder parts) and real Award Winners for ROTTEN ACCESSORY OF NOTE - are its F-8 Crusader, at left, and A-7 Corsair-II, at right. Again the One-View Syndrome is strongly evident, the top views being at least recognizeable, while the side-views (at bottom) fail to capture even such prominent features as the huge, chin air intakes. Likewise, you can again imagine a verbal description only of "wings attached in a dorsal spine, tilting upwards as a single unit during taxi and takeoff" - duly misinterpreted to show a pitched-up trailing edge, instead of the leading edge!
For the record, this "F-8" (if you dare call it that) scales out - again, by length only, for an F8U-1 - to 1/537, and the "A-7" scales (also by length, for an A-7E) to 1/527. About the only thing good I can think of regarding either of these is that, at this size the A-7 could provide a decent foundation for (extensive) sculpting into a 1/550 scale Corsair-II, whose mass-reproduction in this scale would be a first. (Pretty good F-8s already having been provided in almost all the Revell Essex-class releases, as well as Airfix Forrestal-class kits.)
In any case, the above provides ample proof, if any were needed, that unless you are already intimately familiar with the subject, 3-View drawings - or at a minimum, two (overhead and side) views - are absolutely required to create decent models - in any scale!
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: Chasing PHANTOMS
Posted by Rick Tsujimura on December 19, 2009, 20:33:09, in reply to "Chasing PHANTOMS"
Matt, thanks for the updates. I have the GoldMedal Etch sheets but never saw the crew. Thanks for pointing that out. I have acquired the Hornet and was lucky enuff to win a Renwal Lexington on ebay. I don't know if all the parts are there but it will assist me in figuring out the bow shapes along with your excellent posts. Finally yes I was planning to place the F-4's on the Forrestal. I have been acquiring Revell Lexingtons for that purpose. thanks much
Re: Chasing PHANTOMS
Posted by Rick Tsujimura on December 19, 2009, 15:28:05, in reply to "Chasing PHANTOMS"
Thanks Matt for the post it really helps my search; BTW does anyone know which Revell Forrestal reissues contained the F-4's?
Hang On, You Guys! (LOL)
Posted by Matty on December 19, 2009, 16:11:08, in reply to "Re: Chasing PHANTOMS"
Welcome Aboard, Rick! You and Mikey are too quick for me - I just edited the post a little, so you guys can see where I'm going - in attempt to completely answer all your questions (to the best of my ability, anyway), in text along with each picture.
Take another close look - wherever you see a little plastic Phantom, that's the one from the kit displayed next to (or under) it. Otherwise, there ain't one (at least, not that I've ever been able to get ahold of)...
The final edit will "reveal" your identity - seein' as how you already OK'd it, yourself!
Welcome "above surface" at ModelFleet, buddy!
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: Chasing PHANTOMS
Posted by Mike Kozlowski on December 19, 2009, 11:08:08, in reply to "Chasing PHANTOMS"
Matt -
The best kit F-4s I've ever seen were the ones Revell put with its Forrestal re-releases (they also showed up in their last 27C Lexington CVT rebox, though I can imagine getting an F-4 off an Essex would have been sporty at best.) The ones that came with the old Aurora 1/400 CVN-65 were also pretty good - I built that one back in the 70s and IIRC the planes were pretty spiffy if you took your time with them.
I also noticed you had one of the AriiCarriers in there - what's your take on them? Their planes ain't good - more or less accurate shapes that need a lot of work to look good - but the boats themselves I think are jewels in the rough. They're close enough to 1/700 that you can use that scale planes and PE on them, and let's face it - they're the only kits where you're going to get a refit Enterprise, a late Midway (but you're ONLY gonna build Midway, no Coral Sea or FDR), or Constellation. The prices are certainly reasonable enough - about $25 last I looked.
Mike
Re: Chasing PHANTOMS
Posted by Rick Lundin on December 21, 2009, 15:02:15, in reply to "Re: Chasing PHANTOMS"
-- Originally Posted 12/19/09 --
Launching F4H's from the steam catapult equipped Essex class carriers was not a problem (the much heavier A3D's routinely operated from Essex class CVAs) but recovery was another matter. "Hitting the boat" in a Phantom when it was an Essex class ship was cutting it a bit close, safety-wise. With the availability of Midway, Forrestal and later carriers coupled to the numbers of F8U squadrons in the fleet it only made sense to operate the Phantoms from the bigger ships.
Although early F4H-1 deck trials successfully took place aboard the USS Intrepid (CVA-11) the decision was taken to operate Phantoms aboard the larger carriers of post war construction. On the other hand, the Royal Navy did operate it's Phantoms from the HMS Ark Royal, a ship about 8,000 tons larger but about 3 knots slower than than SCB-27C Essex class ships.