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    Environment and football

    Posted by Scathing hatter on 13/5/2019, 10:45:14

    Good luck waiting for UEFA to do something that makes sense.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/11/anger-carbon-bootprint-english-football-finals-champions-league-europa-league

      Re: Environment and football

      Posted by Flyin brian on 14/5/2019, 6:44:59, in reply to "Environment and football"

      I have a few friends going over to see Arsenal.
      One lands at 2 am in Istanbul to change flight! The others have to change in Doha Qatar!

      Baku is east of Baghdad 😂

        Re: Environment and football

        Posted by The Outsider on 13/5/2019, 11:00:17, in reply to "Environment and football"

        You can't just suddenly change the venue of an event such at this with a couple of weeks notice once the finalists are known. People continually complain about venues for things such as the Conference play-offs. I remember when we played Wimbledon in Manchester that there were complaints that, because it was two southern teams, it should have been moved to somewhere like Arsenal. You just cannot do it at a few days notice. Planning for a game like that starts many months in advance. I have been involved, to a small extent, in making plans for play-off finals. These plans start for clubs even before they know for certain whether or not they are going to be involved. Two years ago, I spent the best part of a fortnight making provisional arrangements in case we reached the final. Obviously, this was time that, in the end, was completely wasted but it had to be done in case we got through as the timescales are so tight that there is no alternative.

          Re: Environment and football

          Posted by Scathing hatter on 13/5/2019, 11:24:17, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

          Genuine question, what is the cause of having to plan so far ahead? At the end of the day anything above 1.5c climate change is going to trigger catastrophic consequences around the world. We're on a trajectory of 3c or 4c increase at present so clearly efforts need to be increased to address this and anything that exacerbates the problem. 36000 tonnes of CO2 for a sporting event where 2 teams from London are made to travel to Baku doesnt make a lot of sense to me to be honest.

            Re: Environment and football

            Posted by The Outsider on 13/5/2019, 12:17:48, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

            Hiring the ground
            Policing
            Stewarding
            Catering staff
            plus, I am sure, numerous other factors.

            All clubs that could potentially be involved in the play-off final attend meetings some time before the end of the season.

            As I said, two years ago, I spent a lot of time that ended up being wasted. This related to arrangements for coach travel for fans to Wembley if we had got there. Coach companies need time to make provisional arrangements for booking coaches from other companies, stewards have to be approached to see if they are willing to help out, arrangements have to be made for the sale of coach tickets (there would have been just over a week between the second leg and the final). Everything has to be in place ready to "press the button" immediately after the second leg. Announcements giving details needed to be prepared ready to publicise if we got through. Arrangements had to be made for departure points including obtaining permission from the relevant authorities. Had we got through the game would have been on the same day as the Luton Carnival which caused additional logistical problems.

            These are just a few of the factors and this is for a relatively low level game. No doubt the problems would be multiplied many times for an event such as the Champions League final although they would have had a large team working on it whereas I was doing this virtually on my own whilst trying to run my own business.

              Re: Environment and football

              Posted by GlennD on 13/5/2019, 13:07:33, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

              How we did we use to manage to arrange FA Cup semi finals at venues sensible for the two teams involved once the teams were known e.g us v Everton at Villa Park, us v Wimbledon at White Hart Lane.
              Also, though as UEFA helpfully pointed out it's impossible to predict the finalists, it's certainly not impossible to predict that it's very unlikely that any will come from Azerbaijan and most likely they'll come from Germany, Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Netherlands & England.

              Re: Environment and football

              Posted by Morph on 13/5/2019, 11:49:19, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

              So no-one should ever travel anywhere then?

                Re: Environment and football

                Posted by Scathing hatter on 13/5/2019, 12:32:31, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                Of course, but if you need a pint of milk should you go to your local shop or to one on another continent? A football game is a luxury event, not a necessity lets be honest. We're not doing enough to curb the amount of CO2 thats already in the air and this is a frivolous addition to it.

                  Re: Environment and football

                  Posted by Morph on 13/5/2019, 12:37:00, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                  What nonsense. Who are you to judge what is a worthy trip or not?
                  They can quite easily offset emissions, especially a wealthy organisation like UEFA

                    Re: Environment and football

                    Posted by Scathing hatter on 13/5/2019, 12:57:21, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                    Agreed they can afford to offset. Are they though? I don't know, but i would be surprised if they are. Ultimately the ave global footprint per capita needs to come down to 2 tonnes per year. It's currently 4 tonnes. Uk ave is 6.5 tonnes gor comparison. Renewables currently taxed at 20% fossil fuels at 5%. Crazy system and needs to change.

                      Re: Environment and football

                      Posted by Morph on 13/5/2019, 13:06:30, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                      I'd be surprised if they do as well. They could though, easily. Makes more sense than anything else to me

                      Re: Environment and football

                      Posted by Simpleton on 13/5/2019, 12:49:37, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                      Morph please explain what offsetting emissions means.Thanks.

                        Re: Environment and football

                        Posted by Morph on 13/5/2019, 13:05:09, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                        You can buy certificates that are used to finance carbon reduction schemes around the world. Things like reforestation etc.

                        It's a bit like confession for the catholics, do what you want (emitting wise) and then just pay to clear your conscience

                          Re: Environment and football

                          Posted by Don Logan on 13/5/2019, 14:21:47, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                          Are these certificates printed on paper?

                            Re: Environment and football

                            Posted by Morph on 13/5/2019, 14:56:28, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                            Nope, etched onto drill bits used for shale extraction

                              Re: Environment and football

                              Posted by Scathing hatter on 13/5/2019, 14:41:57, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                              Mine was emailed to me, with the option to print it if i wanted, which i didn't so i haven't. What are you trying to imply?

                              Re: Environment and football

                              Posted by crumpsall on 13/5/2019, 13:13:53, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                              Haha, well put!!

                              Re: Environment and football

                              Posted by The Outsider on 13/5/2019, 12:52:54, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                              Being able to travel thousands of miles to speak to climate change protesters but it is alright because you can afford to clear your conscience by making a cash payment

                                Re: Environment and football

                                Posted by crumpsall on 13/5/2019, 12:59:14, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                Without wishing to sound sarcy it's a bit sad that some people's entire take out from the Extinction Rebellion (is that the right name?) highlighting what must be the most important problem in/for the world is that Emma Thompson is a bit of a self-important and in this instance comically inadvertent hypocrite luvvie!

                                  Re: Environment and football

                                  Posted by The Outsider on 13/5/2019, 13:13:02, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                  Not saying that it was the most important thing to come out of it - it was just my cynical nature to answer the question asking what offsetting emissions means by highlighting the hypocrisy of her thinking that it was OK just because she can afford to pay to clear her conscience.

                                    Re: Environment and football

                                    Posted by crumpsall on 13/5/2019, 13:18:36, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                    I know that - but it is emblematic of how such an incredibly important issue is demeaned by making a quick quip about one of its supporters and distracting from the matter in hand.

                                    We see the same thing with other issues: one which springs to mind is the lack of black managers/coaches in the league in proportion to players - dismissed with an off the cuff sarcastic comment. That one sprang to mind as I've just read Danny Rose's comments in full.

                                  Re: Environment and football

                                  Posted by Nearly a Genius on 13/5/2019, 12:53:52, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                  Or paying to plant a few trees.

                                Re: Environment and football

                                Posted by Mahatma Gander on 13/5/2019, 12:42:21, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                I suspect he'd be a more objective judge than you . . .

                              Re: Environment and football

                              Posted by The Outsider on 13/5/2019, 12:04:50, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                              Has anyone told Emma Thompson

                                Re: Environment and football

                                Posted by Morph on 13/5/2019, 12:06:00, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                She probably offset the carbon footprint of the flight

                              Re: Environment and football

                              Posted by Mahatma Gander on 13/5/2019, 11:47:16, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                              It is about time big organisations and countries got their priorities right, things like sharing around the finals should now become secondary.

                                Re: Environment and football

                                Posted by Sandgrounder on 13/5/2019, 11:52:12, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                Be interesting to see how much carbon is emitted as a result of the champions league group stage and knock out stages. Or the Formula 1 travelling circus. I think they’re probably more of an issue than a one off game anywhere.

                              Re: Environment and football

                              Posted by With all due respect on 13/5/2019, 11:19:07, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                              Actually, that is nonsense - and illogical. The clubs reaching the final and their fans all have just a couple of weeks to make their arrangements, even if - in the clubs case - they have made provisional bookings, which they wouldn't have done before semi final stage. It would be far easier to react and book if they were dealing with somewhere closer and with better connectivity than Baku, which was an absurd choice to start with. You cannot in all seriousness compare a single person organising some coaches with multi million pound organisations with sophisticated logistic and infrastructure capabilities tackling such a challenge. The fact is, issues like this need to be addressed. Starting with making sensible decisions in the first place and building in flexibility for arising circumstances. The situation is a nonsense, and solutions are not only obvious but also achievable.

                                Re: Environment and football

                                Posted by Silverstone Hatter on 13/5/2019, 11:31:29, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                It can be done - if there was a desire to do it

                                With 4-6 weeks notice from semi’s to final a neutral ground half way between the two finalists could be found.

                                It’s not as if most European clubs have any domestic ties to fulfill on that weekend - so plenty of empty grounds

                                Tickets can be issued within a couple of days

                                Stewarding is quick enough to be able to organise at a few days notice for cup games - again could be done

                                Wouldn’t stop travel companies, hoteliers and airlines taking the p!ss but would prevent the ridiculousness of two London clubs having to travel to Azerbaijan or Madrid

                                If they wanted it continental - then I’m sure the powers that be could arrange Hampton Park and the Millenium Stadium 😉

                                Wouldn’t help Uefa satisfy their investors though - so will never happen

                                  Re: Environment and football

                                  Posted by Hack on 13/5/2019, 11:35:55, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                  It can't though. I'm sorry but just saying 'could be done' doesn't make it so.

                                  It's so much more beyond just a few tickets and stewards. Also - there will be an absolute ton of deals already struck with contractors, sponsors, and loads more besides. You can't just say 'yeah sorry, we're holding it somewhere else'. The world doesn't work like that. UEFA would be liable for a bill in the millions.

                                    Re: Environment and football

                                    Posted by Ted on 13/5/2019, 12:00:44, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                    F**k it, lets just let the planet boil then.

                                      Re: Environment and football

                                      Posted by crumpsall on 13/5/2019, 11:58:55, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                      A bill which would be entirely of their own making and which, frankly, is a result of their own stupidity, rapacity and inflexibility.

                                      They should have provisions built in for such circumstances, which aren't exactly unpredictable. Why did they choose Baku? Why have they such an idiotic arrangement for the next UEFA tournament? Why have FIFA insisted on continuing with Quatar?

                                      I'm going to turn your starting statement around - I'm sorry, but just saying 'can't be done' doesn't make it so.

                                      It is possible that it is now too late in this particular instance (I'd suggest that no-one on this board has the knowledge to give a fully informed answer to that) BUT had the planning been better it would almost certainly been better.

                                      It's not that long ago that replays, relocations etc happened with little notice. What has changed since then? We have allowed bloated international organisations to become inflexible, intransigent on issues like location and price. Why? Why not say no, and insist on a rethink?

                                      As I say, it may be too late in this instance, but perhaps the clubs should have made noises about the venue in the first place, and certainly when this outcome became a possibility.

                                      Its not acceptable to just shrug our shoulders and say 'oh well, nothing we can do about that'. And the OP's points about the environment are valid too.






                                      compared to the costs now being looked at by all and sundry

                                        Re: Environment and football

                                        Posted by Scathing hatter on 13/5/2019, 12:35:27, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                          Re: Environment and football

                                          Posted by Newton on 13/5/2019, 12:20:10, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                          Well said that man.

                                          Also, probably the first time the word "rapacity" has been used on this board. Good on ya.

                                            Re: Environment and football

                                            Posted by Hack on 13/5/2019, 12:13:40, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                            Crumps - completely reasoned as usual and for the record I completely agree with you. Despite how it may sound I'm not defending UEFA at all.

                                            I'm simply making the point that - as you acknowledge - where we're at right now means it can't 'just be moved' and that the ties and agreements surrounding such things are way more complex than people think.

                                              Re: Environment and football

                                              Posted by crumpsall on 13/5/2019, 12:28:41, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                              Thanks mate. Yours is one of the voices of sanity on here - my reply was to really to bring the broader issue to the thread. 'We' (unsure who I mean by that generalisation, what with the world not being run along the unhinged* lines of Outlaws!) need to make much more noise about the thoughtless actions of bodies like UEFA and FIFA. For all their hubris, they only exist with the complicity of the public - and they need, somehow, to be brought to account.

                                              *a wonderful description which comes, I believe, courtesy of John Earls and When Saturday Comes. I'd love to hear a chant of 'we are unhingeable'!

                                                Re: Environment and football

                                                Posted by Nearly a Genius on 13/5/2019, 12:46:22, in reply to "Re: Environment and football"

                                                Not just unhingeable, but already unhinged.

                                                "We are irreparable"?

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