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    Planning

    Posted by Bobble Hat on 6/12/2018, 8:49:00

    What is the likely scenario if both are approved ?
    Can we get straight on with the construction of Power Court or do we need Newlands up and running first to finance it ?
    And what happens if stadium approved but Newlands refused ??

      Re: Planning

      Posted by Anon on 6/12/2018, 8:55:16, in reply to "Planning"

      If planning permission is granted there will be a JR Period and a referral to Sec of State that will need to occur. If no JR is made and If no call-in from Sec of State, only then can planning permission be granted, subject to completion of a S106 agreement.

      If planning is granted you must remember it is only outline planning - this will essentially approve the principle and the high level detail of certain matters (transport, environmental, archaeological and so on...) There will be another application process to go through for the detailed design of the two sites (what the buildings will look like (in detail) how the accesses will work (in detail), how the site will be landscaped (in detail) etc - these are called reserved matters applications which will require another planning process. Any recommendation to approve will also have a number of planning conditions that will need to be satisfied (another application process for each one know as discharge of conditions.

      Even if outline application is granted for both sites there is still a bit of a way to go on the planning side - however the principle will be established and can therefore no longer be disputed.

        Re: Planning

        Posted by Music Critic on 6/12/2018, 14:02:00, in reply to "Re: Planning"

        Almost right

        If planning permission is granted the Sec of State can no longer get involved. The exact process is that LBC, if they are so-minded, say to the sec of state that they are minded to approve BEFORE they make their call. That info goes to the sec of state who then has a month or so to call it in. If he doesn't LBC can go ahead and determine

          Re: Planning

          Posted by Music Critic on 6/12/2018, 14:45:54, in reply to "Re: Planning"

          https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN00930#fullreport

          A planning application can be called-in at any time up to the granting of planning permission. In practice, it is normal for a local planning authority to complete the preliminary work, and reach the point where it is minded to grant planning permission. It then notifies the Secretary of State, who can decide whether to call-in the application to determine it himself.

          If a planning application is called-in, there will be a public inquiry chaired by a planning inspector, or lawyer, who will make a recommendation to the Secretary of State, who genuinely takes the final decision. The procedure is laid down in the Town and Country Planning (Inquiries Procedure) Rules 2000 (SI 1624).

          People often ask whether the Secretary of State can call-in a planning application after the local planning authority has officially approved it. He cannot do so. Note that there is sometimes a difference between the planning authority determining to approve an application and the actual approval being issued officially.

            Re: Planning

            Posted by Nearly a Genius on 6/12/2018, 16:08:26, in reply to "Re: Planning"

            Would the Planning Inspector's ruling last year have any bearing on the Sec of State's decision?

              Re: Planning

              Posted by Music Critic on 6/12/2018, 16:36:25, in reply to "Re: Planning"

              Probably but it's not an exact science

          Re: Planning

          Posted by Pogue Mahone on 6/12/2018, 9:16:56, in reply to "Re: Planning"

          Good post Anon mate. Much appreciated.

            Re: Planning

            Posted by Captain Andrea Sparklet on 6/12/2018, 9:18:32, in reply to "Re: Planning"

            Welcome back Pogue

              Re: Planning

              Posted by EastEnder on 6/12/2018, 9:34:54, in reply to "Re: Planning"

              Next thing to moan about will be people complaining the first brick at PC hasn't been laid on 31 Jan.

                Re: Planning

                Posted by Anon on 6/12/2018, 9:40:54, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                I can understand people getting excited. However, gaining outline planning permission isn't a green light just to crack on with things. Nobody has seen a detailed plan of any of the buildings as yet (or any in depth design of anything) - I think its a case of understanding the planning process (I don't mean that condescendingly) and managing expectations on what are some very significant infrastructure projects, on some very tricky sites (levels/rivers/contamination). seeing some comments this morning, that in itself will be a task, and i'm sure the Council will again get pelters for this (despite being out of their hands).

                Outline permission will be a major major hurdle (can't emphasise that enough) but there will still be some way to go before the first brick is down!

                  Re: Planning

                  Posted by 4-4-2 on 6/12/2018, 11:02:46, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                  Why don't we just stay at Kenilworth Road?

                  It'd be a lot easier.









































                    Re: Planning

                    Posted by Journeyman on 6/12/2018, 10:23:16, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                    FFS where’s Lego Bob when you need him.

                      Re: Planning

                      Posted by bbb on 6/12/2018, 10:13:36, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                      Cheers. Its a bit clearer now.

                        Re: Planning

                        Posted by Mahatma Gander on 6/12/2018, 10:09:31, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                        Darn, I thought it was just the SoS / JR to go.

                        But thanks for the excellent explanations. My expectations are now reset, sadly.

                          Re: Planning

                          Posted by Altern-8 on 6/12/2018, 15:01:15, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                          Expectations raised IMO, as the SoS can't call it in after permission granted, so these meetings could possibly be a great moment in our history, then just working out the details.

                          Personally, I'm more upbeat with this new info, cheers Anon.

                            Re: Planning

                            Posted by Music Critic on 6/12/2018, 15:17:47, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                            That's right that SoS can't call it in after permission is granted. SoS will need to be formally informed of what LBC want to do though... in advance of that being ratified at the meetings to give him an opportunity to call it in. If LBC don't do that (they will), that immediately opens it up to Judicial Review. If SoS doesn't want to call it in, LBC are free to go ahead and (hopefully) grant permission

                            But it still can go to Judicial Review despite the SoS deciding not to get involved (if that is indeed the case)

                              Re: Planning

                              Posted by Anon on 6/12/2018, 15:42:45, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                              Apologies as I wasn't completely clear. Music Critic is right, however...The committee will make a resolution, lets say, to grant pp. BEFORE finalising this, the Council will have to refer the applications to the S.o.S for potential call-in. Only when the S.o.S has made its decision, will the Council then be able to proceed with issuing / finalising the decision. The decision will not be final until the referral process is complete (this would be a typical cause for JR!)

                                Re: Planning

                                Posted by Altern-8 on 6/12/2018, 15:34:38, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                Ahh, what possibly could be grounds for a JR?

                                Also, would it be pretty safe if the SoS didn't call it in?

                                #stillupbeat

                                  Re: Planning

                                  Posted by Music Critic on 6/12/2018, 16:38:37, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                  Things get taken to Judicial Review due to legal and process reasons

                                  So, for example, if LBC hadn't consulted the public and/or organisations (Environment Agency, for example) properly, as stated by law, then that could lead to a JR

                            Re: Planning

                            Posted by Pogue Mahone on 6/12/2018, 9:46:16, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                            OMG, you are actually amazing!

                            Where have you been all my internet life Anon?

                              Re: Planning

                              Posted by crumpsall on 6/12/2018, 9:44:50, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                              This is proabably not the time for 'managing expectations' but for being relieved and happy that there are now decision dates set in stone.

                              2020 will have done plenty of the detail work, I am sure.

                                Re: Planning

                                Posted by crumpsall on 6/12/2018, 9:46:55, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                Probably, that should be.

                                Re: Planning

                                Posted by EastEnder on 6/12/2018, 9:43:46, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                cheers. you can try and educate people as much as you can, but half of them won't read it or or it will go in one ear and out the other other anyway.

                              Re: Planning

                              Posted by Pogue Mahone on 6/12/2018, 9:32:47, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                              Welcome back to you too Captain Andrea Sparklet mate.

                            Re: Planning

                            Posted by Hotshot on 6/12/2018, 9:15:11, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                            Any idea on realistic timings of when they could actually start building? How long will the JR and Secretary of State bits go on for..?

                              Re: Planning

                              Posted by Anon on 6/12/2018, 9:23:18, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                              I think the Sec of State referral is around 60 days for a response - if they call-it in then they will set the agenda for dates. Given the timeframes for addressing, the Council will do all they can to ensure that there is no grounds for JR - I think the JR period is a similar 60 or so days.

                              The S106 could take a little while to draft, agree and sign/seal so that could be a few months (imagine the legals that will need to be tied up in something like this then x that by both apps!!).


                              Reserved matters applications will have a timescale of 13 weeks (3 months say) conditions applications will have 8 weeks.


                              Trying not to come across pessimistic but a start on site some time in 2020 is my realistic guestimate - that said thisis only my educated opinion and I know how much 2020 developments will want to get cracking!!

                                Re: Planning

                                Posted by Music Critic on 6/12/2018, 14:08:05, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                The window to apply for a JR is six weeks after the council decision. Then a judge will consider that application (that C&R will inevitably hand in), which might take a few weeks.

                                If it goes to JR, then we're in it for the long haul. If it doesn't spades can go in the ground

                                  Re: Planning

                                  Posted by Music Critic on 6/12/2018, 14:38:48, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                  https://www.planninghelp.cpre.org.uk/improve-where-you-live/how-to-challenge-a-planning-decision/court-challenges

                                    Re: Planning

                                    Posted by The Outsider on 6/12/2018, 14:33:51, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                    If it doesn't spades can go in the ground

                                    Wouldn't we need to apply for detailed planning permission first - these are only outline applications ?

                                      Re: Planning

                                      Posted by Music Critic on 6/12/2018, 14:40:56, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                      Prep work can still happen I believe

                                      Detailed permission talks about building design, etc I think

                                      You don't need that to start to decontaminate a site or lay some foundations

                                      I believe Anon's timescales are pessimistic. It will still be a long old process but not that bad (as long as it doesn't go to JR, of course)

                                        Re: Planning

                                        Posted by Strider on 6/12/2018, 17:14:20, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                        Any permissions are likely to be subject to several pre-commencement conditions, which will need to be discharged, before "any spades " should go in the ground

                                          Re: Planning

                                          Posted by Nearly a Genius on 6/12/2018, 17:26:23, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                          Such as?

                                          Sian Timoney was adamant that the last thing they want is for it to be called for a judicial review, and that is why it has taken so long.

                                            Re: Planning

                                            Posted by The Outsider on 6/12/2018, 17:32:19, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                            Making S106 agreements ?

                                              Re: Planning

                                              Posted by Nearly a Genius on 6/12/2018, 17:39:30, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                              Ok.

                                                Re: Planning

                                                Posted by The Outsider on 6/12/2018, 17:56:20, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                                It was only a guess - don't quote me on it - those that know more about these things such as Music Critic and Strider are in a better position to clarify things.

                                                  Re: Planning

                                                  Posted by Nearly a Genius on 6/12/2018, 17:59:39, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                                  Thanks, I don't really understand what an S106 is .

                                                    Re: Planning

                                                    Posted by The Outsider on 6/12/2018, 18:21:41, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                                    It is where a developer agrees to provide something in return for being allowed to build - like the house builders who agreed to build a railway station at Wixams in return for being allowed to build the houses !

                                                    OK, not a good example - here is what Wikipedia has to say.

                                                    Section 106 of the Act, in conjunction with DoE Circular 5/05, allows for local planning authorities and persons interested in land to agree contributions, arrangements and restrictions as Planning Agreements or Planning Obligations. Applicants can offer such agreements unilaterally or negotiate and agree them as support for their application to make it accord with local planning requirements, but without some of the rigorous controls of Planning Conditions under s 70(1).

                                                    It relates to money paid by developers to local planning authorities in order to offset the costs of the external effects of development. For example, if a developer were to build 100 new houses, there would be effects on local schools, roads etc., which the local authority would have to deal with. In that situation, there might be a Section 106 agreement as part of the granting of planning permission. The agreement might also entail provisions about production of social housing. The developer might agree to make a contribution towards the provision of new schools or traffic calming on local roads.

                                                      Re: Planning

                                                      Posted by Nearly a Genius on 6/12/2018, 18:29:01, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                                      Ah yes.
                                                      Like Morrisons agreeing to improve the High Street in Houghton.
                                                      They constructed a shared space type road, with a raised section from Cemetery Road past Bedford Square, with zebra crossings and roundabouts, but forgot adequate drainage. Cost a fortune to fix it.

                                                        Re: Planning

                                                        Posted by Nearly a Genius on 6/12/2018, 18:34:20, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                                        PS The non-existent Wixams railway station?

                                      Re: Planning

                                      Posted by EastEnder on 6/12/2018, 14:33:18, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                      being pedantic, but spades would only go in ground after detailed planning permission?

                                      Or have I got that wrong?

                                      Re: Planning

                                      Posted by Ches Fordroad on 6/12/2018, 10:21:12, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                      Any idea roughly what the build time would be?

                                      I'm guessing August 2022 is looking likelier than August 2021 for the first league game at PC.

                                        Re: Planning

                                        Posted by EastEnder on 6/12/2018, 10:28:33, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                        These things always get delayed I wouldn't expect it to be til 2023 at least, just my opinion

                                          Re: Planning

                                          Posted by EastEnder on 6/12/2018, 10:32:07, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                          ps if you think similar size project to Brentford they are opening Aug 2020 after getting outline approval in Dec 2013.

                                            Re: Planning

                                            Posted by Anon on 6/12/2018, 10:39:14, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                            Brentford's (as far as I am aware) is a standalone stadium, with blocks of flats around?

                                            PC is built on a plinth/deck over surface level car parking and music venue / supermarket - built in to the same plinth will be the flat blocks. The stadium itself also has a floating halo flood light, which means the superstructure of the stadium will be different to Brentford (take longer to build??) - PC also requires removal of contam / rediverting and opening up a river / moving a significant electric sub-station. The differences are endless.

                                            It will take a while to build i'm in no doubt - how long? I have no idea

                                              Re: Planning

                                              Posted by EastEnder on 6/12/2018, 10:41:41, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                              yep I guess Brentford quite straightforward and that took nearly 7 years.. so probably completely unrealistic to be talking about 2021 or even 2022.

                                              And they had no legal challenge either.

                                              Still, good things worth waiting for.

                                                Re: Planning

                                                Posted by Ches Fordroad on 6/12/2018, 10:50:47, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                                2023 - ####ing hell, some people really will lose their shit ......

                                                  Re: Planning

                                                  Posted by EastEnder on 6/12/2018, 10:55:07, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                                  7 years from outline planning would be 2026!

                                                    Re: Planning

                                                    Posted by azores hatter on 6/12/2018, 19:09:44, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                                    fuck it, if i'm still alive by then i'll probably be too old to go

                                                      Re: Planning

                                                      Posted by The Outsider on 6/12/2018, 11:00:39, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                                      Are you saying that it isn't going to be finished until nearly half past 8 tonight - 2020 out !

                                          Re: Planning

                                          Posted by Pogue Mahone on 6/12/2018, 9:31:39, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                          You're my new favourite poster. Noel can fuck right off.

                                      Re: Planning

                                      Posted by Forza twenty twenty... on 6/12/2018, 8:50:09, in reply to "Planning"

                                      They can be built simultaneously...we don't have to wait for Newlands

                                        Re: Planning

                                        Posted by Bobble Hat on 6/12/2018, 8:51:38, in reply to "Re: Planning"

                                        Excellent !!!

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