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    Hartlepool just giving

    Posted by Yeah on 12/1/2018, 10:36:55
    82.71.160.154

    For those interested..

    https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/savehartlepoolunitedfootballclub?utm_id=106&

      Re: Hartlepool just giving

      Posted by IP on 12/1/2018, 18:16:37, in reply to "Hartlepool just giving"
      45.56.156.7

      Definitely interested and willing to help. Love Jeff, admire Hartlepool, proper club. Good luck to them

        Re: Hartlepool just giving

        Posted by Kirk on 12/1/2018, 12:05:31, in reply to "Hartlepool just giving"
        151.230.140.78

        I'm sure Hartlepool fan Jeff Stelling (who is a decent bloke and closet Town fan) can have a whip round with his mates Tommo, Merse, Charlie and Le Tiss to raise the necessary funds.

          Re: Hartlepool just giving

          Posted by Buzzard on 12/1/2018, 12:08:48, in reply to "Re: Hartlepool just giving"
          88.151.154.244

          Perhaps Middlesbrough can assist.

          After all Hartlepool let them play at their ground, when they nearly went out of business, in the 80's.

            Re: Hartlepool just giving

            Posted by EastEnder on 12/1/2018, 12:13:41, in reply to "Re: Hartlepool just giving"
            213.205.251.166

            Or the PFA. They kept Bournemouth out of admin for several months when a 10 point deduction would have put them below us in the minus 30 season.

              Re: Hartlepool just giving

              Posted by The Outsider on 12/1/2018, 13:22:14, in reply to "Re: Hartlepool just giving"
              188.122.40.55

              My correspondence with Gordon Taylor on that issue.

              I have read various articles recently which refer to the PFA paying the wages of players at Chester, Bournemouth, Stockport and Darlington. Attached is one such article.

              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1165564/Union-pay-players-wages-Darlington-Stockport-Chester-Bournemouth-12-clubs-face-administration.html?ITO=1490

              Assuming that the contents of the article are correct, this raises a number of issues on which I would appreciate your comments.

              1) As a supporter of Luton Town, I must question why the PFA is paying the wages of players at Chester, Bournemouth and Stockport. I can understand the reasons why you are supporting your members at Darlington, as the club is in administration, but feel that you should not be doing so at the other clubs as this would appear to be influencing the relegation situation at the foot of League 2 by helping Chester and Bournemouth to avoid administration and, therefore, a points deduction. I note that the article refers to Luton as one of the clubs whose players have been supported by the PFA in this way but assume that this was while we were in administration.

              2) By doing this, you are having a potentially negative effect on the careers of some of your own members (ie the Luton Town players) as your actions would appear to be harming their club's chances of retaining its Football League status.

              3) The article states "Although the union hope to recoup most of the money lent to clubs in trouble, their finance department has written off £250,000." Could you please explain the circumstances in which such a bad debt can arise. As I see it, this should only happen if a club is wound up after assistance has been given by your organisation. I believe that any wages paid by the PFA would constitute a "football debt" and, as such, must be paid in full as part of the process of exiting administration.

              4) I find the fact that you have paid the wages of Gillingham's players during the last twelve months to be particularly ironic in the light of the well publicised opinion of their chairman Paul Scally that clubs that go into administration should suffer automatic relegation. It would appear that Gillingham have avoided administration only because the PFA paid the wages of their players - if that is not the case, the obvious question is why did the PFA pay these wages.

              I fully support your funding of wages where a club is in administration but it would appear to me that the PFA's actions are, actually, influencing the final league placings at the end of the season by what is, effectively, your interference in the financial situation of the clubs. This, quite clearly, is not an acceptable situation.

              I look forward to your explanation of the above points.

              I will be forwarding a copy of this message to Luton Town FC as I am sure that the players' PFA representative will not be happy about the fact that their subscriptions are being used in a way that harms their career prospects.

              **********************************************

              Reference your emails of 7th and 9th April.

              The PFA, over the last three decades, has been a lender of last resort to clubs to help them through difficult financial times when there have been problems meeting the players’ wages on time. As a lender of last resort we also look to look after our money by having the backing of the Football League with such loans with regard to future payments due to the clubs, so in effect it is merely an advanced payment of monies due to the club in any event.

              We do of course take a risk with such loans if the club were to collapse and go out of business altogether but I am delighted for the sake of football supporters to say we have been successful in helping to make sure England has more full-time clubs in more towns and cities than any other country in the world and, as a football supporter, I hope you would agree.

              Often we also ask players to defer wages when the club has gone into administration to help financially and we do our best to hold all the players together because, as you will know doubt appreciate, if any player at a club including the star players are not paid on time they can walk out and effectively terminate their contract and join another club on a free transfer and we look to avoid that situation.

              Regards

              Gordon

              *************************************************

              Gordon

              Thank you for your reply .

              I am aware that the PFA does a lot of good work for its members and helps to protect them and their families. Your reply does not, however, address the specific points raised in my original email. I would appreciate your comments on each of the points that I raised. The original message including those points is below.

              I look forward to your explanations as, as I am sure you are aware, the actions of your organisation in keeping both Chester and Bournemouth out of administration have helped to confirm Luton's relegation. Without the "interference" of the PFA in the situation, it would appear that both of these clubs would have gone into administration as I understand that neither of them has paid their players for the last two months. As I said in my earlier message, I feel that your assistance to clubs, in this way, should only occur after a team has gone into administration. I find it difficult to understand why you consider it to be part of your organisation's remit to act in this way in order to stop a team going into administration.

              **********************************************

              Reference your email of 14th April.

              I thought you would have known Bournemouth have been in administration and have points deductions. With regard to Chester, this is just an ongoing mess as the players have not been paid for some time and have considered going on strike.

              If such a thing happened and the players walked out then of course the League is diminished and quite seriously we try to keep clubs in existence by helping out with future monies due to that club from the Football League.

              I note you are quite concerned about Luton Town and I do appreciate that not only did they suffer points deductions for entering into administration but also as a result of the FA enquiry into their financial dealings with agents which was rather a double blow, of course nothing to do with ourselves.

              I don’t think you appreciate that at any time if a player is not paid his wages in accordance with his contract he can walk and that is why I feel supporters don’t appreciate the loyalty and solidarity of the players and the PFA when we have avoided the situation on countless occasions over the last three decades. I can even remember a time when Premier League clubs such as Middlesbrough were in administration and we had to ask Hartlepool United for permission for them to train on their ground.

              Regards

              Gordon

              *********************************************

              Gordon

              Thank you for your reply.

              I am well aware that Bournemouth were in administration last summer and suffered a points deduction as a result. Having said that, I do not see that that is relevant to the current situation. It would appear likely that they (and Chester) would have had to go back into administration if they had not been "propped up" by your organisation. In fact, there is an article in today's Independent http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/southampton-to-appeal-after-league-docks-club-10-points-1673338.html that says that they are more likely to be liquidated than go into administration. As I said in my original message, you appear to be supporting some of your members at the expense of others. I have no objections, whatsoever, to the PFA being financially supportive of its members once a club has gone into administration - in fact, I applaud that - but I do feel that you are directly influencing the final league table by getting involved at an earlier stage. I would even go as far as to say that you are, actively, assisting the directors of the clubs to contravene company law by continuing to trade whilst knowing that the companies are insolvent.

              You refer to Luton suffering a points deduction for entering into administration. As I am sure you will be aware, those points were deducted in the 2007/08 season and are, as such, totally irrelevant to the situation that I am querying. I have never said that the deductions that Luton have suffered are the fault of the PFA as that is clearly not the case. What I do think is something that is to do with the PFA is the absence of a ten point deduction from the records of Bournemouth and Chester. Without your actions, this would appear to have been virtually inevitable.

              I am well aware of the situation regarding players walking out if they have not been paid but Luton will, almost certainly, lose players as a result of your actions in keeping other clubs out of administration leading, in part, to our relegation.

              I would stress that I take no pleasure in seeing clubs in financial difficulties although I do think that much of the problem at Bournemouth was caused by the failure of the Football League to investigate the position before allowing them to come out of administration last summer on the basis of the possible future sale of a company owned by one of the buyers of the club (a deal that, of course, never materialised) and a business plan that was, reportedly, based on them being in the upper echelons of League 2 (something that no prudent business plan should assume). All that I am asking for is a "level playing field". The actions of your organisation have prevented this being the case.

              *******************************************

              Further to your e-mail of 24th April, please find enclosed my reply to Mark Wood, Group Sports Editor at The Luton News.

              Kind regards.

              Gordon Taylor

              Reference your e-mail. There is not a lot more I can add apart from saying that over the last three decades, the PFA must have helped, by way of loans or asking the players to take wage deferrals, at least two thirds of the 92 clubs in the Premier League and the Football League. In answer to your questions specifically, the PFA does not wish to make loans to any clubs but will do its best to protect players’ wages when clubs are having liquidity problems and we do normally make loans to clubs not in administration.

              The size of the loans vary according to the seriousness of the situation, but it is important to point out to you that all these loans are underwritten by payments due to the particular club in the future from the Football League and therefore the risk to the PFA is if the club went into liquidation which fortunately has only happened on very few occasions. These loans have not given any clubs an unfair advantage as it is monies due to the club in the future, and from that point of view is much more secure than an overdraft, albeit a club’s overdraft may be based on the assets of the club. As such, they have not given any club a particular advantage over another. The size of our loans are virtually always less than six figures and as such have no significant effect on whether a club goes into administration or not.

              Finally, just to repeat, in answer to your last question, to be as specific as possible, the loans are made particularly for and purely to protect players’ wages, as they are our members, many of whom are on the national average wage in the lower divisions and have mortgage commitments, etc., based on a regular income.

              I think we should be grateful in this country that we have the most full-time professional clubs in the whole world with the highest aggregate number of spectators and the highest aggregate number of professional footballers and from that point of view we will continue to try to keep as many clubs in existence as possible. We also worked very hard in the 80’s to try and ensure automatic promotion and relegation into and out of the Conference and this has been achieved with the result that the Conference is now a much more viable league and has resulted in the majority of clubs in the Conference choosing to take on their players on a full-time basis. From this point of view, I hope very much that Luton can hold together, buoyed up by their success at Wembley, and bounce back into the league with their troubles behind them.

              *************************************************

              Gordon

              Thank you for that. I had already seen Mark's article on this subject.

              Unfortunately, you seem to suffer from the same problem as the staff at the FA and the Football League in that you either will not or cannot answer the actual points being raised and questions being asked. I have raised a number of questions throughout our correspondence, virtually all of which remain unanswered. I get the impression that the "footballing authorities" (including the PFA) work on the basis that, if you ignore the questions often enough, people will just give up. I know of people who have contacted the Football League on several occasions throughout the season without getting replies to specific questions and it has now got to the stage where, without ever giving proper replies to questions raised, they now just reply that they "consider the matter closed".

              I cannot accept your assertions that the loans have not given any clubs an unfair advantage. That is, quite clearly, not the case. How can you say that the loans have no significant effect on whether a club goes into administration or not.

              Whilst you state that "the loans are made particularly for and purely to protect players’ wages", this, obviously, allows clubs to divert funds, which would otherwise be used to pay wages, elsewhere in order to avoid administration or, even, winding-up orders. It is common knowledge throughout football that Chester have been "on the brink" for the majority of this season and it seems absolutely certain that they would have gone into administration some time ago if they had not been propped up by the PFA. Even now, Stephen Vaughan is stating, in public, that administration is an option that is being considered. Without being subsidised by the PFA, I cannot see how there would have been any viable alternatives to administration.

              *********************************************

              Your message

              To: GTaylor@thepfa.co.uk

              was read on Fri, 8 May 2009 08:27:18 +0100

              ***************************************************

              End of correspondence !

                Re: Hartlepool just giving

                Posted by The Questioner on 12/1/2018, 23:02:45, in reply to "Re: Hartlepool just giving"
                86.148.50.129

                What a ####ing politician - totally understood the point you were making but by answering a non question thought you would go away . Would love to meet that #### .

                Re: Hartlepool just giving

                Posted by Buzzard on 12/1/2018, 12:17:37, in reply to "Re: Hartlepool just giving"
                88.151.154.244

                  Re: Hartlepool just giving

                  Posted by EastEnder on 12/1/2018, 12:22:32, in reply to "Re: Hartlepool just giving"
                  213.205.251.166

                  Sad to see Hartlepool, Orient, Torquay all near bottom of Conference and with a chance of being in Conference North or South next season.

                  Orient were 2-0 up in a play-off final for promotion to Championship in May 2014!

            Re: Hartlepool just giving

            Posted by HH on 12/1/2018, 11:09:04, in reply to "Hartlepool just giving"
            77.99.162.49

            Danny Kelly had an interesting discussion about this yesterday on Talksport. Should they be saved?

            Easy for us to talk about when it was us fans in a similar situation not too long ago

              Re: Hartlepool just giving

              Posted by EastEnder on 12/1/2018, 11:30:06, in reply to "Re: Hartlepool just giving"
              81.159.131.127

              Not like they will go bust - they will go into admin - although don't think Conference allows teams in admin to start the season so they would end up in the Northern Prem League or somewhere if they're not out by next season.

              Re: Hartlepool just giving

              Posted by EastEnder on 12/1/2018, 11:07:07, in reply to "Hartlepool just giving"
              81.159.131.127

              How much did their fans give to us?

                Re: Hartlepool just giving

                Posted by Shropshire Hatter on 12/1/2018, 11:20:33, in reply to "Re: Hartlepool just giving"
                213.205.242.137

                Is it fair on other teams towards the bottom of that league, not sure, therefore any donations from me would be based on saving the club after administration or for a reformed club likes others have had to do ie Hereford, Chester, Telford etc etc.

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