The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Jerry Andrews on March 30, 2024, 10:58 am

I recently started casting my own plates from original Buttplates I used when I made the molds. Just wondering who made the ones for the factory, does anybody know? thanks, Jerry.

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Drew Hause on March 30, 2024, 11:55 am, in reply to "Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

Gutta-percha was a natural latex product originally derived from a tree in Malaysia, and was widely used in the second 1/2 of the 1800s. Hard rubber was made by vulcanization of India rubber from the latex of different trees. Both are pliable when heated; hard when cooled.
Bakelite was the first plastic and patented in 1909, and mostly replaced gutta-percha.

Interesting article which mentions several makers on p. 27
https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/2007-B96-Gutta-Percha-Hard-Rubber-and-Synthetics-.pdf

I'm not aware that anyone has found a maker's mark on a Smith (or any other doublegun's) buttplate.

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Jerry Andrews on March 30, 2024, 7:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

Thank you Drew!!

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on April 1, 2024, 12:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

So...this is Gutta Percha? Since it predates the Bakelite invention date (& it's clearly not horn) it likely is just that. Thankyou yet again Dr. Drew. I guess chemically this material is a "polyturpene", specifically trans-1,4-polyisoprene. Neat stuff! This 1890 Quality 2 buttplate and grip cap are almost an olive-brown.

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Drew Hause on April 1, 2024, 12:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

Another thread
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=161750&page=1

Some uncertainty regarding that buttplate Lloyd. It has been found on Smith, Lefever, Fox and Ithaca guns, in 2 thicknesses, and may be aftermarket. No one has found a maker's mark.

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on April 1, 2024, 1:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

Ok, did anybody else use the "double-dog" version? It makes sense that it would be "aftermarket" as it was used for surprising variety of things before the advent of Bakelite (per the article you posted here earlier). No surprise to me that the Hunter boys gave it a try for their then "new" guns in 1890, it's certainly held up pretty well.

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Drew Hause on April 1, 2024, 1:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

https://members.boardhost.com/lcsmith/msg/1643306951.html

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on April 1, 2024, 1:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

A fairly obscure answer Dr. Drew (you aren't an attorney as well BTW?). I had read that conversation earlier here, about the source of these buttplates. If they have been used elsewhere, I've never run across them, certainly not these specific L.C.Smith versions.

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on April 1, 2024, 2:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

1891 on the left, 1890 on right. Hard to see it here but the left one (clearly, much more worn) is almost black.

My "double-dog" twins. The 1891 version was carried more, the 1890 gun was clearly shot more (the top lever is further to the left).

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Jerry Andrews on April 2, 2024, 7:00 am, in reply to "Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

I have made molds for every Smith plate I’ve encountered out of Smooth on Moldstsr 30 and used their black onyx for the plate material. I used play dough instead of clay to form the mold. The process for creating a 2 piece mold is on YouTube. It’s straight forward. Anyone can do it easily. Jerry

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Stephen Sipprell on April 3, 2024, 11:58 am, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

I have what appears to be the original mold master for the Syracuse TRAP GUN buttplate. I will be making NEW buttplates from the original tooling in the near future.

Syracuse butt plate

Posted by David Williamson on April 3, 2024, 12:53 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

Steven, I could be wrong but if that was the original mold wouldn't the lettering be backwards?

I think your butt plate is just that, a new butt plate that has to have the holes counter sunken for the screw head.

Syracuse butt plate

Posted by David Williamson on April 3, 2024, 12:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

Sorry forgot to ask what is it made of.

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Ken Descovich on April 3, 2024, 1:06 pm, in reply to "Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

I'm going to put my two cents out there again, I have seen far to many L. C. Smith Shotguns of this era with this buttplate (and I know there are other shotgun manufacturers with a simular buttplate) at this time it is not proven that the buttplate is or isn't factory used my personal belief is that Hunter Arms company being so new may have purchased these buttplates to put on there shotguns, no different than buying a recoil pad like silvers or Hawkins that are considered original factory at a latter date. I am trying to avoid people from believing they have a aftermarket buttplate and c
Replacing it to something else.

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by David Williamson on April 3, 2024, 1:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

Ken I agree that the one with the two pointing Setters was used on other manufacturers' guns. I think that is the nicest butt plate used on the early Fulton hammerless guns.

Re: Syracuse butt plate

Posted by Stephen Sipprell on April 3, 2024, 4:30 pm, in reply to "Syracuse butt plate"

Hi David,
This is the “mold master”. If you are familiar with the molding process, this is what is used to make the mold. So its lettering is not backwards (the mold itself has backwards letter). The mold master represents what the mold will produce.

This mold master is made from steel. It has threaded holes on the backside to hold it in the fixture while making the mold.

Best,
Stephen

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Stephen Sipprell on April 3, 2024, 4:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

I agree with Ken. These are ORIGINAL buttplates. They were sold to gun manufacturers of the day, and installed on new guns from the factory.
As Hunter Arms was transitioning from Syracuse to Fulton, they needed a new buttplate, as the current “Syracuse NY” buttplate would not be appropriate. So they sourced new buttplates from an outside supplier, who also provided the same buttplates to other gun manufacturers.

Re: Syracuse butt plate

Posted by David Williamson on April 3, 2024, 5:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Syracuse butt plate"

Stephen thanks for clarifying that.

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Drew Hause on April 3, 2024, 6:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

I agree the buttplates are original, as in manufactured during the same period as the guns.

Does it make sense however, that Ithaca had proprietary buttplates for Crass, Lewis and Minier doubles

and LAC has a proprietary buttplate

And during the same period Hunter Arms was offering "The L.C. Smith Trap Gun" plates

And they were in competition, but all 3 offered that same buttplate??

A.H. Fox BTW had a simple grooved buttplate without the Fox name, and the plates have been found on Fox guns also.

We won't KNOW until we find a catalog showing the buttplate in question. I sure wish the makers name was on the wood side

Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?

Posted by Drew Hause on April 4, 2024, 9:40 am, in reply to "Re: Buttplates - Who made them for L.C. Smith?"

Baker Gun & Forging in Batavia had a proprietary plate

As did Syracuse Arms Co.

Possibly Bro. Tom could share if he's seen a SAC gun with the plate in question?

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