Posted by Steve Moore on December 7, 2018, 2:26 pm
I have read that a Model 21 was tested for strength against the worlds best shotguns. Anyone know how the LC Smith did? Is there a list of the guns tested and how each did? Thanks
Winchester Model 21 Proof Load Test
Posted by Drew Hause on December 7, 2018, 3:18 pm, in reply to "L.C. Smith vs Winchester Model 21" Edited by board administrator December 7, 2018, 5:16 pm
Winchester Model 21, "2000 proof loads test". The Ithaca NID was the first gun out after 56 proof rounds, the Fox-Sterlingworth after 80 proof rounds, and the Parker Bros. Trojan after 305 proof rounds. According to Schwing's Model 21 book the record for how long the L.C. Smith lasted has been lost?!?
We do not know however if "out" meant the gun would no longer lock up, if the stock disintegrated, or if the breech burst.
Ned Schwing, Winchester's Finest The Model 21, p. 22 "Instead of following the usual practice of utilizing case-hardened material for the frame, Winchester employed chrome molydenum alloy steel, the famous Winchester Proof Steel, having a tensile strength of 90 tons per square inch" "When Winchester decided to build a double barrel side by side shotgun it wanted a set of barrels that were strong and accurate. The result was barrels forged in the Winchester plant from specially heat treated alloy steel having a tensile strength of 115,000 to 120,000 pounds per square inch and an elastic limit of approximately 105,000 pounds per square inch. This was more than twice the strength of the usual barrel steel." "Model 21 barrels began as solid core blanks of special chrome molybdenum alloy developed by Winchester metallurgists working with the steel company´s metallurgists to devise a formula strictly for Winchester barrels.", p. 57.
The Winchester “Violent Proof” (VP) load was reported to be 7 1/2 (long) tons = about 24,000 psi by Burrard's conversion.
Hunter Arms Co. Pressure Curve, 6-10-1929 from the McCracken Research Library, Buffalo Bill Center of the West, and used with permission. http://library.centerofthewest.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/WRAC/id/8149/rec/107 Proof Load with FFFg black powder. Shot presumed to be No. 6 Pressures measured by crushers (LUP - Lead Units Pressure) and modern piezoelectric transducer measurements would by 10 – 14% higher
10g 2 7/8” 9.5 Drams with 2.36 oz. shot = 16,000 psi 12g 3” 8.265 Drams with 2.187 oz. shot = 17,250 psi 12g 2 3/4” 7.53 Drams with 2 oz. shot = pressure not recorded 12g 2 3/4” 6.5 Drams with 1.687 oz. shot = 14,200 psi 16g 2 9/16” 6.5 Drams with 1.687 oz. shot = 13,750 psi (It seems likely that the above 2 numbers have been switched.)
20g 2 3/4” 5.74 Drams with 1.5 oz. shot = 14,625 psi .410 2 1/2” 2.377 Drams with .624 oz. = 15,625 psi
LTC Calvin Goddard writing in “Army Ordnance” in 1934, stated that Hunter Arms proof tested 12g 2 3/4” chamber barrels at 14,300 psi by LUP + 10 - 14% or about 16,000 psi.
Roger, I agree with your comments, at least as to aesthetics. Handling is a little more subjective. I believe the main reason the M-21 survived the proof exercise was the length of the receiver, and therefore the distance from the hinge pin to the breech face. The recoil force just doesn't have as much leverage. It also makes them much heavier, also adding to the durability (and clumsiness). On the other hand, everyone that I know that has 21's is constantly dealing with other issues with them. Keeps CSM busy!
Feb. 20, 1897 Sporting Life Dr. Hinkins of Chicago, has an L.C. Smith gun that was formerly used by Rolla Heikes. This gun was fired 60,000 times while in the possession of Mr. Heikes and has had over 15,000 shots fired from it since that time by Dr. Hinkins. This goes to show what the L.C. Smith gun will stand, as it is still tight and strong us a new gun.
The standard Live Bird load of that period was 1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. of Bulk Smokeless powder with a pressure of about 11,500 psi.
Re: Rolla Heikes' Smith
Posted by Bill Murphy on January 11, 2019, 8:42 am, in reply to "Rolla Heikes' Smith"
Many of us are in possession of American double guns used as competition pigeon or trap guns for a hundred years or more. Many are still in good shape mechanically even though they were only in the post war years were they shot with less than 1 1/4 ounce loads. Careful use usually means taking action when any looseness if experienced. If the gun is kept tight and carefully closed and opened, almost any make of quality American gun will last 120 years or more.
Bill and All I revisited the gentleman w/the two Smiths. The 16 ga. didn’t fit me and I already have an Ithaca M37. The other slide action shotgun was interesting - can’t say that I saw one like it before. Nice chatting w/you Bill. I’ll look for you there next year too. For those unaware of Easton MD, it’s on the MD eastern shore where bird hunting is a long held tradition. Double guns are right up there w/that tradition. One never knows what will pop up at this annual gun show. Best Regards. RLD