The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
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Elsie Long Range

Posted by Al on June 8, 2017, 10:25 am

I have bought two really nice 1922 Elsies with 32" barrels and choked full/full. Both were advertised as being Long Range models. Both have the underside of the barrel wedges but nothing else to indicate their being Long Range. I have started the factory letter route but is there some possibility that they aren't Long Range models?

Long Range

Posted by Drew Hause on June 8, 2017, 10:34 am, in reply to "Elsie Long Range"

The Long Range was first advertised in 1923, but the Hunter Arms records show that one was made in 1921 and an Eagle Grade Long Range in 1922. Only 14 were made in 1923.

1923 Hunter-Trader-Trapper

Please share what Dr Jim finds when you receive the letters.

Re: Long Range

Posted by Michael Harris on June 8, 2017, 10:56 am, in reply to "Long Range"

If the bottom lug that protrudes thru the receiver does not say Wildfowl or Longrange, then I probably would not consider them to be so but we will see what the letters say. I do have a Crown Grade that letters to be a Longrange but the lug is not marked as such.

Re: Long Range

Posted by Al on June 8, 2017, 11:46 am, in reply to "Re: Long Range"

The serial numbers come back as 1922 but supposedly no Long Range other than one Eagle Grade were built that year.

Re: Long Range

Posted by Michael Harris on June 8, 2017, 12:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Long Range"

Al, Are both guns Field Grade guns? I see where you are talking about barrel wedges and I suppose you mean they have the reinforced barrel lug or loop that some call it. Are they 3" chambered guns? Do either of them have an "L" marked on the watertable?

Re: Elsie Long Range

Posted by Dan on June 8, 2017, 12:55 pm, in reply to "Elsie Long Range"

3" chambers?
I, too, have an unmarked long range, but it is marked "chambers 3 inch" on the flats.

Re: Long Range

Posted by Al on June 8, 2017, 1:53 pm, in reply to "Re: Long Range"

One is a "Field", the other is "Specialty" grade. Neither have 3" chambers. No "L" markings. Yes the reinforced barrel lug is present on both.

Re: Long Range

Posted by Al on June 8, 2017, 2:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Long Range"

Now I am not sure what the reinforced barrel lug should look like. Anyone have a picture?

Re: Long Range

Posted by Tom Garver on June 8, 2017, 2:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Long Range"

Again, never say never. I have a trap grade finished on August 11, 1924 that does not have long range stamped on the barrel lug. It does letter as 1 of 59 trap grades made in long range and 1 of 19 in its configuration.

Re: Elsie Long Range

Posted by jimmyd on June 8, 2017, 2:29 pm, in reply to "Elsie Long Range"

Who advertised them as Longrange guns ? There are several that have been advertised on the internet that do not say longrange or wildfowl on them. I do think one has 3" chambers. If I'm not mistaken I think the wildfowl & longrange choke is longer than the standard LC Smith choke.

Re: Elsie Long Range

Posted by Al on June 8, 2017, 2:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Elsie Long Range"

The field is from a vintage dealer in Grand Rapids, MI. Advertised as 3" chambers but my Brownell's chamber gauge differs. I am waiting for the factory letter before I go back to them. I need a picture of the reinforced barrel lug. What I thought it was seems to be on all Elsie's listed that include good pictures.

Reinforcing wedge

Posted by Drew Hause on June 8, 2017, 3:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Elsie Long Range"

2nd style found on most, but not all LRWF, and also non-LRWF guns with BTFE

Re: Reinforcing wedge

Posted by David Williamson on June 8, 2017, 5:39 pm, in reply to "Reinforcing wedge"

I believe in later catalogs it was referred to as a re-enforcing wedge and was an option. The Longrange Field Grade I have has one. I also have a Trap Grade with an extra set of barrels and they both have it.

Re: Reinforcing wedge

Posted by Al Hemerling on June 8, 2017, 6:11 pm, in reply to "Reinforcing wedge"

How do I put pics on here?

Re: Reinforcing wedge

Posted by Al Hemerling on June 8, 2017, 6:15 pm, in reply to "Reinforcing wedge"

Mine look like that except the whole void (oval) is solid.

Solid "barrel loop support"

Posted by Drew Hause on June 8, 2017, 6:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Reinforcing wedge"

Re: Solid "barrel loop support"

Posted by Al Hemerling on June 8, 2017, 6:35 pm, in reply to "Solid "barrel loop support""

That is what mine looks like.

Long Range & Wild Fowl

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on June 8, 2017, 7:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Solid "barrel loop support""
Edited by board administrator June 8, 2017, 8:22 pm

It appears that the use of "Long Range" and later "Wild Fowl" was a Hunter Arms Company marketing scheme designed to sell more shotguns. LONG RANGE was stamped on the barrel lug of designated shotguns from 1921 through 1941. WILD FOWL was stamped on the lug of designated shotguns from 1940 to 1942. These were the "Long Range" and Wild Fowl" shotguns and were recorded as such (LR, L, or WF) in the shipping ledgers.

Others were made in the same configuration, but were not marked or designated in the records as a LR or WF. Many did not have the reinforced loop. In addition, not all LRs had 32-inch barrels and 3-inch chambers.

To be a "real" LR or WF, it has to have the marking on the barrel lug. Remember, this was simply a marketing scheme and there is nothing extraordinary about shotguns marked in this manner. In the early to mid-1920 they charged about $10 extra for a LR. By the 1930s, an LR cost a more realistic $1.60 extra.

There are quite a number of L.C. Smith shotguns in a "long range configuration", but fewer (2,606 LR and 98 WF) were marked as such.

Re: Long Range & Wild Fowl

Posted by Dan on June 9, 2017, 9:29 am, in reply to "Long Range & Wild Fowl"

Thanks for the insightful information Dr Jim. So much for the allure of the long range.
How could the manufacturer of "the gun that never shoots loose" mislead us?

Marketing Hyperbole

Posted by Drew Hause on June 9, 2017, 11:10 am, in reply to "Re: Long Range & Wild Fowl"

Ah...gotta love the fellas in the sales & marketing dept.

Certainly the "killing consistently at 80 yards" was total bs, as proven by Bro. David's actual pattern testing, and published by Dr Jim in the Spring 2013 "Double Gun Journal" Volume 24, Issue 1, p. 137.

However, SOME LRWF did indeed have "A distinctive L.C. Smith method of choking (which) adds 15 to 20 yards to ordinary shotgun range...specially bored to a longer, tapering choke..."
LRWF bores are usually .730 to the choke constriction of about 3 inches; slightly longer than the Hunter Arms 12g standard.

Then again, what we choose to believe, and in which we have confidence, has a lot to do with successful gunning

The "Long Range" parade

Posted by Drew Hause on June 9, 2017, 11:21 am, in reply to "Marketing Hyperbole"

"The Original Long Range Shotgun" - NOT
Introduced 1923, the same year as the Smith. One Smith Long Range was produced in 1921 and an Eagle grade Long Range in 1922.

1904-1914 W.J. Jeffrey & Co. catalogs

Parker Bros. 1929 Catalog
"Magnum, Super, and variously named guns about which so much is now being written are not a new development in the gun makers' art. For the past twenty years Parker Brothers have made guns to handle heavy charges of powder and shot, giving good patterns at long range. Recent improvements in powder and by shell manufacturers have served to make the Parker Long Range gun even more effective, so that today the Parker built and bored to secure the full power of modern loads with which one may confidently expect to bring down game at distances a few years ago considered impossible, is up to date but not new. Parker Long Range guns are built to guard the user against abnormal recoil. The weight of the barrels is so distributed that the gun handles the heaviest loads with comfort. The purchaser of a Parker Long Range can rest assured that he will receive a gun, easy to handle, sufficiently heavy and properly bored to shoot the heaviest loads for the killing of wild fowl at extreme ranges."

John Olin may take part of the blame

1923 Western Cartridge Catalog. "The Super-X load actually gives 15 - 20 yards greater shotgun range." Courtesy of David Noreen

Re: The "Long Range" parade

Posted by Rick on June 10, 2017, 10:25 am, in reply to "The "Long Range" parade"

BUT-

instead of "It appears that the use of "Long Range" and later "Wild Fowl" was a Hunter Arms Company marketing scheme designed to sell more shotguns."

the Super Fox was a specifically designed new model- an oversized frame - originally with overbored and specially choked barrels designed by Burt Becker - however - I'll give you the "longrange" was not an original thought - just more marketing

Re: Long Range

Posted by Clarence Voyles on August 15, 2017, 10:33 am, in reply to "Re: Long Range"

Are the long range and trap models the same

Long Range and Trap Guns aka Live Bird Guns

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on August 15, 2017, 7:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Long Range"

NO.....Long Range models and Wildfowl models are not the same as a Trap Gun.....There are Trap Grades OR Trap Guns that have the three inch chambers.....Not all Trap Grades are Trap Guns, how about that for crazy???...Jent

Re: The "Long Range" parade

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on March 30, 2019, 8:55 pm, in reply to "Re: The "Long Range" parade"

I am closing this long thread. Feel free to open another on the same topic.

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