The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by L.A on July 18, 2012, 12:47 am
68.2.247.129

Hey All

The site is showing

"1884 Began manufacture of L.C. Smith double barrel hammer guns in qualities F ($55), E ($70), D ($95), C ($125), B ($150), A ($200), and AA ($300)

I have SN 78016 F with a date on the receiver of Mar 29, 83

1) Was the 83 date a patent date?
2) If they started, as stated, making these in 1884 why is mine dated 1883?
3) What year would mine have been made, if not 1883?

Please inform

Thanks

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by Norm on July 18, 2012, 2:13 am, in reply to "L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
67.234.164.112

The 1883 date is a patent date for the breech locking mechanism. So -

1. yes
2. see 1
3. 1899? that's a guess, David or Jim will surely give the correct date when he sees this

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by David Williamson on July 18, 2012, 5:54 am, in reply to "L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
174.49.147.138

L.A, Norm is correct on the patent date, and also on the date made.

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by L.A on July 18, 2012, 8:46 am, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
68.2.247.129

Thanks Men

In looking through the site was trying to confirm this info

I understand now - '83 patent date, 1899 actual made

Fascinating shotgun

Thank you very much

L.A.

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by L.A on July 18, 2012, 1:35 pm, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
68.2.247.129

On this site, Where do I confirm the date 1899?

In looking I did not see it listed

Do you have a link to the page?

Thanks very much

L.A.

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by David Williamson on July 18, 2012, 2:11 pm, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
174.49.147.138

L.A., if you read just above the listing for years and serial numbers, you will see that there are some blocks of serial numbers missing. 70,000-79,000 is one and that is for hammer guns.

From my research with collecting hammer gun serial numbers for 1899 would start at somewhere in the 58,000 and go to 78,999.

Guns is the serial number range 58,000-73000 would have a 6 pin 2 screw bar action lock, joint check (round disk with eccentric pin in barrel lug), and the Type II Intermediate hammers.
After 73000, guns now would have a 3 pin 1 screw back action lock, Type III or "C" style hammers, still have the joint check. (up to s/n 78619)

Your gun falls into the 3 pin 1 screw back action lock with the "C" style hammer.
It should have either Stub Twist barrels or Damascus, although there are a few with Royal Steel.

Good luck and good shooting with it.

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by L.A on July 18, 2012, 2:42 pm, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
68.2.247.129

David

Your help is truly appreciated

It makes sense now as you explain the missing block os SNs (as I could not find it exactly)

It does have 3 pin, 1 screw with C style Hammers, also has the pinned round disc holding the barrel to receiver

I had just gotten it and am very happy to add it to my collection

The barrels are very bright, clean & actually look to be chrome, they do not have any

Wood is in very good condition

Stay Well

Len

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by Dan K. on July 18, 2012, 11:24 pm, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
71.186.232.103

Mine's one of the Royal Steel ones (F #77604).

Dan

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by Dan K. on July 18, 2012, 11:29 pm, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
71.186.232.103

Sounds like someone was in the middle of working on it (if polished to re-blue). That being the case, they'll rust if left un-protected. Look into rust-bluing so you don't unsolder the ribs. The "pinned disc" is the joint check and one of the patents is for that.

Dan

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by Dan K. on July 18, 2012, 11:34 pm, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
71.186.232.103

Sorry, forgot to say that if they are royal steel, they're marked as such on the barrel at the chamber.

Dan

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by L.A on July 19, 2012, 10:10 am, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
68.2.247.129

Dan

Is there a ROYAL STEEL stamp name or symbol?

Mine does say "Hunter Arms" on the top of 1 barrel

The blue is mostly gone to rust color with some original remaining

The INSIDE of the barrels look like chrome as they are very bright & shiny, not rusted/pitted at all

Len

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by Dan K. on July 20, 2012, 12:07 am, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
71.186.232.103

Yes, they're marked "Royal Steel".... Hang on a sec, I'll grab mine and tell you where they were stamping them then.......

....ok, top of left bbl over the chamber is "Hunter arms co. makers fulton ny" Top of right bbl over the chamber is "royal steel". On the bottom of the bbls in front of the block is a capitol "C" (I *think* it's for "crusible steel".) If you're worried about the possibility of damascus, put a dab of cold blue where the foreend covers it to see if there's pattern.

Dan

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by L.A on July 20, 2012, 11:40 am, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
68.2.247.129

Dan

I do not see "ROYAL STEEL' stamped anywhere

I do now see a "EH" stamp near the "C" stamp on the left underside barrel. Thoughts?

Would a "Demascus" barrel have twist in it?

Len

Barrel marks

Posted by Drew Hause on July 20, 2012, 12:11 pm, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
68.2.111.76

The barrels are damascus. 'EH' may be the tube maker Ernest Heuse-Lemoine or a poorly stamped 'BH' for the large distributor Belknap Hardware in Louisville, or someone else we haven't figured out yet
See http://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

Re: Barrel marks

Posted by L.A on July 20, 2012, 12:35 pm, in reply to "Barrel marks"
68.2.247.129

Drew

The EH is pretty clear

The link given has great information !

I have really enjoyed learning about my L.C.

As I understand, we should NOT shoot Demascus barrel ?

Len

Damascus barrels

Posted by Drew Hause on July 20, 2012, 3:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Barrel marks"
68.2.111.76

Please see http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/safetoshoot.html

Re: Damascus barrels

Posted by L.A on July 20, 2012, 5:10 pm, in reply to "Damascus barrels"
68.2.247.129

Drew

Thanks fo rthe link

Well explained

Len

Re: Damascus barrels

Posted by L.A on July 20, 2012, 5:10 pm, in reply to "Damascus barrels"
68.2.247.129

Drew

Thanks for the link

Well explained

Len

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by Dan K. on July 20, 2012, 11:05 pm, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
71.186.232.103

Well then I guess I was wrong about the "C"....... The F Grade was available with royal steel, stub twist (damascus), and Fine damascus. I'd again suggest a dab of cold blue to see what you have (assuming that there's no visible pattern now) just do it in an inconspicuous spot (like under the forearm).

Dan

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by L.A on July 21, 2012, 12:42 am, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
68.2.247.129

Dan

Forgive my ignorance

By putting a dab of blue on the EXTERIOR of the barrel (as you suggest under the forearm area) - what do I expect to see? What am I looking to have happen?

After taking the forearm off I see it is lighter under that area from lack of exposure as it is far less brownish as all the rest of the barrels. I see like ribs or bands in the metal. Should I assume that is the stub twist type Demascus?

Also, I do see each barrel is stamped with "EH" and 3-4" away 1 barrel looked like a "C" but the other clearly is a full "O" (so the first is partly stamped)

"EH"and "O" for both barrels

Is there anything I can do to better the brown patina of the barrels? 0000 steel wool? Leave it alone ?

I am learning by this .....

Len

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by David Williamson on July 21, 2012, 6:51 am, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
174.49.147.138

Len, in your description of the barrels, I would say that they are Stub Twist as to having the "rings". If they were Good Damascus that would have more of a pattern.

Dr. Drew could better explain the markings on the barrel, but I believe the 3-4 is the weight of the barrels, 4 being before and 3 after final shaping.

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by L.A on July 21, 2012, 9:53 am, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
68.2.247.129

Hey Dave

The 3-4" is only in reference to INCHES away from the "EH" is the "O" stamp

Both barrels have "EH" and "O" stamps and 1 barrel does have "Hunter Arms"

Len

Barrel weight

Posted by Drew Hause on July 21, 2012, 10:08 am, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
68.2.111.76

It's the pre-fit and finish barrel weight; 3# 4 oz.
Another F grade hammer gun with 3# 14 oz. marks

Image Hosting by PictureTrail.com

The 'C' is for Crucible Steel Co.

Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!

Posted by Dan K. on July 22, 2012, 1:26 am, in reply to "Re: L.C. 78016 F Question Need Help !!"
71.186.232.103

Ok, it does sound like you have damascus, there's pics on this site illustrating the different kinds.

The cold blue would bring out the pattern so you could clearly see what it is, without being a permanent alteration. Which brings me to your last question. Personally, I'd wipe down the metal with an oiled cloth, maybe a little rubbing if there's rust, and then coat it with Johnson's paste wax and leave it "old".

Dan

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