lc smith 12 ga. ideal with extra 45/70 barrels

Posted by Francis on April 11, 2012, 12:32 pm
71.237.173.22

A buddy told me about on of these. Ever heard of such a thing? Factory? I'd like to approach the owner with an offer (and join the LC club). Thanks, Francis

Ruddy In Pensacola Built These

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on April 11, 2012, 1:17 pm, in reply to "lc smith 12 ga. ideal with extra 45/70 barrels"
173.72.209.237

Ruddy K, A full time N.A.R.F. mechanic and part time gunsmith, built these 45-70 on one side and shotgun on the other side combos by sleeving L C Smiths that had one bad barrel. Ruddy would install a rifle barrel tube in the bad barrel and permanently put it in place and rebuild the extractor to match the rifle rim. My Dad and Ruddy would buy bad L C Smiths for $10 or $20 and sleeve them with these 45-70 barrels often. I recall that at one time Ruddy's shop got robbed and several of these guns got stolen. Ruddy also like to rebuild 45-70 Trapdoors. Good Shooting To You, Jent

Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These

Posted by Francis on April 11, 2012, 6:02 pm, in reply to "Ruddy In Pensacola Built These"
71.237.173.22

Wound'nt want to hit the wrong bbl on a quail! I've been corrected, this gun has a good set of 12ga barrels, and an extra set in 45/90 (I had thought 45/70 at first, but was wrong). Can't imagine these being factory, but they are in a similar damascas pattern to the 12 ga. set. Any thoughts? Francis

Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These

Posted by jeff on July 2, 2012, 5:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These"
24.24.245.205

is it still possible to get a set made like that?

Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These

Posted by Steve Arnett on July 2, 2012, 8:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These"
71.76.142.4

My first thought is "OUCH!" I bet that thing would kick like a mule. .45-90 is a pretty stout old BP load. Something like .38-40 or .44-40 seems more appropriate.

Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These

Posted by Tom Archer on July 2, 2012, 9:36 pm, in reply to "Ruddy In Pensacola Built These"
174.131.182.254

For whatever this comment may be worth, Smith barrels were proofed to withstand about 18,000PSI; and while it has been proven that most shotgun barrels will absorb even higher pressures, neither the barrels, the bolt, or the breech balls of the Smith action were EVER intended to absorb center fire rifle cartridge pressures. And while one might get by shooting only the lightest 45-70 loads intended for the vintage, and very weak, 45-70 Springfield rifle; one must also consider the possible outcome and end result should someone unknowingly attempt to fire one of today's high-pressure 45-70 cartridges loaded to near 458 Winchester Magnum ballistics? And besides, is it not reasonable to believe that the makers of LC Smith, Ithaca, Parker, Fox, and other vintage guns would have produced at least a few examples of such double rifles on their standard double gun frames had they had been convinced such a gun could be used safely? I personally shutter at the thought of actually shooting such a cobbled up double rifle; and would thus run, not walk, away from such a gun! Just my thoughts.

Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These

Posted by Steve Arnett on July 3, 2012, 6:28 am, in reply to "Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These"
71.76.142.4

If I am not mistaken, the Bake 3-barrel gun was chambered in .44-40, and I think that is a more appropriate (and vintage) choice. Low-pressure pistol cartridges and the like.

Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These

Posted by Tom Martin on July 3, 2012, 6:33 am, in reply to "Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These"
98.16.93.73

I seldom disagree with Brother Tom, but I will in this case. Remington did, in fact make rifle barrel inserts for their double guns, and Winchester built one or more rifles on their M 21 receiver, in .405 Win caliber as I recall. It must be remembered that unless built on a .410 frame, the barrels will be very thick, and the force on the frame may be no higher than that of a heavy shotshell, because the force on the frame is dependent on the area of the head of the cartridge, and the area of the head of a .45-70 is only a fraction of the area of a 12 gauge shell. Also, any factory loaded .45-70 shell will probably not exceed the pressure established by SAAMI for .45-70 ammo, which I think is about 26,000 PSI. It is held to pressures safe in those old trap door Springfield actions. Unless the firing pins have been bushed down to a smaller diameter, exceeding the standard pressure will cause primer problems and lock the gun up. I think stock problems from increased recoil will be more of a problem than the pressures seen in any ammo available over the counter.

Re: lc smith 12 ga. ideal with extra 45/70 barrels

Posted by Tom Archer on July 3, 2012, 9:47 am, in reply to "lc smith 12 ga. ideal with extra 45/70 barrels"
174.131.182.254

Brother Tom Martin is the gunsmith here, so I will defer to his opinion; although I remain convinced that there are too many uncertainties with a conversion of this type to risk my own anatomy. First of all I don't believe the comparison of the Smith gun to the Winny Model 21 is valid. The Model 21 is later vintage and was alleged to have been made of stronger steels; maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, I only know the hype. But to my knowledge double rifles made on the Model 21 action were never cataloged, only one segment of the many experiments John Olin had his engineers conduct on his pet gun; and I strongly suspect that among other possible modifications, the breech balls of the Model 21 frames were reinforced on those limited production double rifles. As to 45/70 pressures, the 45/70 has been updated by several ammo manufacturers into an incredibly powerful cartridge to include Hornady, Buffalo Bore, and other specialty loaders. These makers specifically state that these cartridges are NOT intended for use in vintage guns such as the Trapdoor Springfield, as they are specifically loaded to perform at pressures far exceeding safe pressures for those early guns. These newer cartridges are designed for the Ruger No. 1, the new Marlin Model 1895, and a few other modern day guns. The 45/70 case is huge and will hold a LOT of powder, and I've seen pics of two modern Marlin 45/70 lever guns absolutely destroyed by 45/70 overloads. Having witnessed an obstructed LC Smith barrel tube explode and vaporize a significant portion of a man's left hand; i personally am not willing to take an unnecessary risk. For although the barrel thickness can certainly be made to withstand center fire rifle pressures, no one seems to consider the area at the breech face at the firing pin. It is my understanding that this area is reinforced on double gun frames engineered to be used as a double rifle. Again, I'm no expert and this is just my opinion. An individual is free to do as he pleases with his gun; my comments here are solely intended as possible safety concerns to be considered.

Re: Ruddy In Pensacola Built These

Posted by Bill Murphy on July 5, 2012, 5:59 pm, in reply to "Ruddy In Pensacola Built These"
173.66.192.145

Whatever any of you guys opine, I want to see this gun. Can you post pictures or tell us who has the gun for sale?