Posted by Patriot on March 27, 2012, 4:00 pm 24.14.160.134
Who knows how the length of the watertables on each gun compares?
Re: Elsie R vs. the 21
Posted by Patriot on March 28, 2012, 10:31 am, in reply to "Elsie R vs. the 21" 24.14.160.134
Please don't think I'm suggesting the Elsie is as tough as a 21. I was just curios about the watertables.
Re: Elsie R vs. the 21
Posted by les riehl on April 8, 2012, 1:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Elsie R vs. the 21" 72.49.122.219
If you look in Houchins' book on pages 372 and 373, the distance from the standing breech to the front of the knuckle is 3 inches for the regular frame and 2 3/8 (2.375 in) for the featherweight, irrespective of gauge. I don't have the necessary tools for precise measurements; however, my 20 ga Premier Skeet, featherweight frame, is approximately 2.0 inches from the standing breech to the point where the knuckle begins.
My 20 ga Win 21 Skeet Gun is approximately 2.6 from the standing breech to where the knuckle begins and slightly more than 3.0 inches to the front of the knuckle radius. If you need precise measurements, I can get them for you. Until you asked the question, I never before noticed that the angle between the watertable and the standing breech on the 21 is actually less than 90 degrees, and that makes the measurement a little more challenging.
Also of note, the Premier Skeet's barrels weigh 2.92 lbs and the gun weighs 7.00 lbs total. The 21's barrels weigh 2.41 lbs and the gun weighs 6.27 lbs. I wouldn't suggest the Elsie (at least this one) isn't as tough as the 21. My 20 ga Trap Grade Elsie is far more dainty and much lighter than the Premier Skeet. My prewar 21 has been shot a lot, but it has had a new hinge pin and locking bolt installed. It has also had new single trigger parts installed to correct doubling and the forend loop and short bottom rib repaired - twice. Hope this helps.
Re: Elsie R vs. the 21
Posted by Patriot on April 8, 2012, 8:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Elsie R vs. the 21" 24.14.160.134
Thanks Les;interesting stuff. Again, I'm of the belief that the 21 is the strongest American made double.
Someone emailed me that the 21's measurement was 1/8" or maybe a little longer than the R frame.
Were there other American doubles made with as long receiver bars as the R;limiting it to 12 ga?
I just glassed a R frame and the verticle head strips are atleast .033 thicker than the FW stocks I have glassed.
Now don't shudder, but many believe the Higgins 100, made by Aya for Sears, was to mimmick the 21. Owner's of the 100 praise the quality and ruggedness of the gun and shooting. It also has the long bars like the 21. My 1957 Digest says the 100 listed at $129.95; the 21 at $390. Quite a savings if you wanted a gun that looked like a 21. Some of the owners of the 100s at trap ranges have had comments that others thought it was a 21.
Re: Elsie R vs. the 21
Posted by Les Riehl on April 15, 2012, 10:55 am, in reply to "Re: Elsie R vs. the 21" 72.49.122.219
I can easily believe the Model 21's watertable is about 1/8" longer than the Elsie R; that's consistent with my 21 and the data in Houchins' book. I wouldn't pretend to know the significance of that, however. The 21 is indeed a rugged gun as witnessed by the factory advertising showing the gun being shot with the locking bolt removed and the barrels held down on the frame only by hand. They also shot a 21 with 2000 proof loads without any measurable damage while all the other American and English guns failed with just a fraction of as many proof loads. Also not sure what that really means other than the gun was over-designed to begin with. My 21 has had good care and no abuse during the three decades I have owned it, but I already told you about the repairs to it.
I've never heard of the Higgins 100, but will pay more attention now that you've enlightened me.
As far as other American doubles with long receiver bars go, I can't say. But of the examples I own or have access to, the M21 is the longest.
Re: Elsie R vs. the 21
Posted by Patriot on April 15, 2012, 5:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Elsie R vs. the 21" 24.14.160.134
