The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 1, 2011, 7:06 pm
98.183.136.90

Hi,
Does anyone have an estimate of how many 10 gauge Ideal Grades were made?

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Ken Descovich on October 1, 2011, 11:54 pm, in reply to "10 gauge Ideal Grade"
76.246.58.217

Per the fine book L.C. Smith "The Legend Lives" 153

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 2, 2011, 8:29 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.183.136.90

Ken,
Thanks for your help.

Sincerely,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Bill Murphy on October 2, 2011, 8:52 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
96.241.171.92

So, what is the configuration and serial number of your Ideal ten? A couple of us here are serious fans of Ideal tens. Mine is a Damascus gun in the eleven pound range, first year gun. Is yours Damascus or fluid steel?

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 3, 2011, 8:54 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.183.136.90

Bill,
I haven't received it yet but it has steel barrels and I expect it was made in the teens, judging by the stock. I feel that it is way overpriced but they are so hard to find I've decided to make the purchase.

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Bill Murphy on October 4, 2011, 7:32 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
96.241.171.92

Did you buy the Galazan gun? I have seen it and it is very nice.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Craig Larter on October 4, 2011, 6:27 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
66.66.112.17

Enjoy you new 10ga Elsie, It's amazing how many Ideal 10ga guns have appeared the last few years for only 153 made!! I have recorded a dozen in the last few years. Enjoy. Craig

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 4, 2011, 8:26 pm, in reply to "10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.183.136.90

Hi,
It is the Galazan gun (I don't have the serial number yet) and I hope it is as advertised. What's it like shooting a 10 gauge? Thank you for all of your help - this site is really neat.

Thanks again,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Stubtwist on October 4, 2011, 8:53 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.216.205.169

Yep... they are out there. I also have an early Ideal 10ga. with Damascus barrels with Curtis for-end.

It sounds like your anxious to shoot when you get it. Who wouldn't be? As to what it's like shooting a ten... When you first get it, grab some RST 2 7/8" 10 ga. #7 1/2 shells and take it to the club trap range and shoot from 16 and then from 27 yards to see the potential of the mighty ten.

Congrats.

Frank

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 5, 2011, 7:30 pm, in reply to "10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.183.136.90

Serial number 352265: 1915, 30" barrels

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Bill Murphy on October 6, 2011, 8:39 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
96.241.171.92

Mr. Larter and I assembled our two Ideal Tens for a picture session some time back. The Galazan gun was just a few feet away when the pictures were taken but was not included. Maybe we can get all three together some day. My gun is a real big 11 pounder.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by MarketHunter on October 7, 2011, 12:35 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.224.238.92

How can shooting a 12 gauge load out of a 10 gauge gun prove the power of "the mighty ten"?

Have somebody load you some 1 3/8 shells for it, shoot it at waterfowl, then you'll see what they can really do.

Destry

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 19, 2011, 7:44 pm, in reply to "10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.183.134.227

Hi,
I received my 1915 era Ideal Grade from Galazan last night and I think it has a serious problem that I hope someone can help me with. On the metal strap on top of the receiver that the safety is mounted on I think I have a crack. Forward of the safety there are two screws; the crack, if that is what it is, is located between the screws approximately 3/16" forward of the screw closest to the safety (smaller screw). I really like this gun but I have a sinking feeling that I'll have to return it and wait another 5 years for another opportunity. On another note the gun was advertised as completey untouched but the stock has obviously been refinished - why do vendors false advertise like this - I just don't get it. Anyway, I'm hoping against hope that the gun is alright but I think I know better. Any and all comments are appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Drew Hause on October 19, 2011, 8:19 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
72.201.212.157

Jim: the two piece tang was discontinued about 1910 - does it look like this?

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Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 19, 2011, 8:27 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.183.134.227

Drew,
Thats exactly what it looks like. My other 3 Ideal grades were made from 1929-1940 and do not evince this construction.

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Dick Miller on October 20, 2011, 7:49 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
96.228.91.168

Jim,
Good news--- apparently your gun was made from a "clean-up" of parts from the pre-13 era, evidenced by the two-piece top tang. There are several of these guns noted, the most recent being a Specialty (I believe) recently listed on GB. Keep it, as it is an uncommon variation.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by David R on October 20, 2011, 9:34 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
68.94.7.97

Jim,
Congratulations on your 10 ga. Ideal, it is a rare bird! My impression of Galazan from seeing him at the shows is he is an honest person. I would call them up and ask to speak to Tony personally. Tell him your concerns about the finish and ask him what adjustment in the price he thinks would be fair---can't hurt to try.
All the best, David R

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by David Williamson on October 20, 2011, 11:28 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
174.49.147.138

As a time period that the two piece top tang ended, like anything else, L.C. Smith, who knows. I have a lettered Grade 2E circa 1914, that has the two piece top tang and is lettered 350 guns above the last recorded Grade, and the last one in the ledgers.
The two piece top tang was most commonly seen on the earlier guns as Dr. Drew has stated.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Steve Arnett on October 20, 2011, 11:38 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
65.188.174.186

As stated before, "For those for whom too much is not enough". Get ye back behind the proof house, Destry! Where's Granny's Cold Remedy?

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 21, 2011, 7:40 pm, in reply to "10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.166.237.179

Hi,
This gun has a "Hunter One Trigger". Could someone please explain how this operates? The slide located next to the trigger has a "D" and "S" embossed on either end so I have an idea of what it does but I would appreciate an explanation of how to properly use it.

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Tom Martin on October 21, 2011, 9:59 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
75.89.240.151

Maybe the markings are for Dexter and Sinister, or right and left in Latin. Perhaps the gun was ordered by a doctor?

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 23, 2011, 2:25 pm, in reply to "10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.166.237.179

Hi,
Why is it that Tony's sarcastic response is not censored yet my in-kind response is? I asked a legitimate question and expected a legitimate response and Tony's was certainly not. I would have hoped that the Forum's censor treat it's members in a more balanced way. As a member in good standing I think I deserve an answer to the censorship bias.

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Tom Martin on October 23, 2011, 4:10 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
75.89.240.151

Jim, my response was not intended to be sarcastic, and was only half joking. Dexter and Sinister , often abbreviated D and S are used by doctors on prescriptions for eyeglasses and other descriptive uses, and is as good a reason as I could think of for the different markings on your Hunter One Trigger. An Ideal was a special order gun, as was the single trigger, so Hunter would have marked it as the purchaser requested. I'm sorry you took my comment amiss, as I didn't mean it that way. I also had nothing to do with the deletion of your comments, and had noted that they had disappeared and wondered what happened to them. I couldn't translate the Latin phrase, as my last Latin class was about 53 years ago.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 23, 2011, 4:31 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
Message modified by board administrator October 23, 2011, 5:18 pm

Hi,
The Latin phrase was "Please Help." I believe S and D are single-double however I have gotten several different responses as to how to properly use it and whether or not you can change lead barrels in the D position.

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 23, 2011, 6:41 pm, in reply to "10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.166.237.179

Hi,
It has come to my attention that my recent response to Mr. Tom Martin was out of line. I apparently mis-interpreted his remarks and my response offended some of the members and possibly Mr. Martin. I would like everyone to know that this was not my intention but that I owe you all an apology because offense was taken. Firstly I would like to apologize to Mr. Martin as I meant no disrespect or ill-will. I also would like to apologize to any members who may have been offended and lastly I would like to thank "Cato the Censorer"(just joking) for calling me and pointing out my error in judgment. I feel lucky to be a member of such a close association.

Sincerely,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Tom Martin on October 23, 2011, 9:58 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
75.89.240.151

Jim: I took no offense at your posts, and am somewhat surprised that anyone else did. After 69 years, I have developed a rather thick hide, and if someone wants to offend me, they will have to be very plain and direct about their intentions. I realized that you had taken my post in a way that I had not intended and should have clarified my intentions earlier than I did.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Mach O'vellian on October 24, 2011, 10:39 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
99.29.184.247

I have shot both 3" coppered No. 2's in a 12 AH Fox HE, also same in Field Smith Longrange- and 3 and 1/2 Mag 10 coppered loads in both a Ithaca NID double and a Spanish made double with same chambers. All kill overhead geese, perhpas it becomes a question of $ and availability. Very interesting questions posed here!!~

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 24, 2011, 7:26 pm, in reply to "10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.166.237.179

Tom,
Thanks for your comment; I think we both were a little surpised at the reaction. In any case I'm wondering if the book "LC Smith: The Legend Lives" would have some helpful information on the trigger operation. Please know that I will always appreciate your comments.

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Tom Martin on October 24, 2011, 9:45 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
75.89.240.151

Jim, I just rechecked Houchin's book, and all the HOT information in it is just copies of Hunter Arms advertizing. That is about what I expected, as John wasn't particularly mechanically inclined. I would be very surprised if the D and S on your trigger meant doubles and singles, as I believe that the 10 gauge had been banned from trap or live bird shooting by the time your gun was built. I have never seen or heard of a HOT that was set up in any way besides selecting right first or left first, but I have a Tobin trap gun with a single trigger that is set up so that it fires right-left in one position, and left only in the other. I originally thought it was broken somehow, but when I took it apart to check it, I found that it was built that way and could not be changed. Trap shooters must have always been a strange bunch!

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 25, 2011, 9:05 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
69.174.113.20

Hi,
I think my gun is triggered like your Tobin. Perhaps I can use a magic marker on my snap caps and figure out what is going on as far as what the triggers do on S and D. One problem I have is that a salesman from William Larkin Moore and Sons told me that you can change the lead barrels by manipulating the safety - I probably misunderstood him - but I'm having a hard time getting that idea out of my mind. We'll figure it out eventually.

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Drew Hause on October 25, 2011, 11:47 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
72.201.212.157

That would be with a selective Miller ST Jim

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Tom may be correct re: D & S.

Italian: destra & sinistra
Spanish: derecha & izquierdo
Portuguese: direita & esquerdo

Hunter Arms sold lots of guns in S. America and the Philippines

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Kevin Tompkins on October 25, 2011, 11:58 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
66.153.25.245

The gents at Classic Gunstocks now own the rights to the Miller Single Trigger. They have a page at http://www.millersingletrigger.com/ - you might want to take a look there for a bit more info.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by David Williamson on October 25, 2011, 12:56 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
174.49.147.138

Jim, I'm fairly sure that if you push the button forward, that would be for the right barrel. Rearward, left barrel.

If that is so, 999/1000 times you will never select a barrel when shooting. First, it is almost impossible to do so with the gun mounted, and second what would the need be, possibly if the gun was choked imp.cyl, right and full left....maybe.

The only single selective trigger that would work mounted would be the early Miller one with the selector on the safety as Dr. Drew has shown.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on October 25, 2011, 9:21 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.166.237.179

Hi,
When the slide is pushed forward the gun shoots L-R, when rearward R-L. The safety does not look like the one on Mr.Hause's gun. It looks like a standard (lower grade) safety lever however it differs from my other Ideal Grades in that it is spring-loaded. I will continue to play with it.

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Mike Kennedy on October 25, 2011, 11:20 pm, in reply to "10 gauge Ideal Grade"
76.235.182.147

I cannot offer any info on the trigger, but I once owned a 10 bore Smith. I regret selling it more than about any other gun I ever had. I had brass shells and loaded it for waterfowl with 150gr. of ff and nearly two oz of copper plated #2s. Back before the steel atrocity, it was a delight in a duck blind. It pushed pretty hard, but slower than smokeless. I liked it much better than the 3" my dad had.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by David Williamson on October 26, 2011, 7:24 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
174.49.147.138

Jim, that is right, rearward is right barrel first. It has been some time that I looked at one.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Jim Cochran on December 12, 2011, 6:40 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
98.166.237.179

Hi,
I was wondering if someone had an idea of how much it would cost to have the buttstock and forend refinished on this gun. Whoever refinished it previously did not do a very good job - they simply stripped the old finish and re-covered it with polyethylene and did nothing to the checkering. I live in the Tidewater, Virginia area and I don't know if there is anyone in the area capable of doing a proper job. In any case I am thinking a nice oil finish would be in keeping with this 1915 model and since it has been preiously refinished I would not lose any value and I would gain a more attractive shotgun.

Thanks,
Jim Cochran

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by John Liles on December 13, 2011, 5:20 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
64.83.34.130

Good morning Jim, I will send you an email.
John

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Bill Murphy on August 15, 2012, 7:10 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
96.255.178.158

So, Jim, what's the latest on your ten gauge Ideal? Can we see a picture of the selector with the S and D, and maybe some pictures of the rest of the gun.

Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade

Posted by Don Holthausen on September 3, 2012, 11:01 am, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
173.54.2.69

A fellow from Olathe , KS has many good pictures of an Ideal 10 gauge posted on the internet. The historical letter for this gun indicates it was finished March 24 , 1913.Serial # 342848. Could this be the first Ideal 10ga.?Does anyone know of one with a lower # ?

10 gauge Ideal Grade Production Data

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on September 3, 2012, 12:56 pm, in reply to "Re: 10 gauge Ideal Grade"
76.84.67.250

I did a quick (not thorough) check of the records and found about a dozen 10 gauge Ideals earlier than SN 342848. The first was made in 1912.

I am working on a summary of the ideals, and the initial data (the final data will be slightly different) show 172 Ideal 10 gauges. Barrel lengths were:

26 inches - 6
28 inches - 3
30 inches - 18
32 inches - 145

Automatic ejectors - 28

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[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]