Hard to open

Posted by Norm on April 10, 2011, 11:06 pm
67.239.50.151

Shot some pasture clays yesterday (well, shot at) with the Winchester feather shells. Each time, the gun was a bear to open after firing. Though both pins were deeply struck, the left firing pin seemed to be the problem, being deeply set into the primer. Does this sound like a gun problem, or soft primers?

The Win FEATHERLIGHT "AA"s are not suitable

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on April 10, 2011, 11:50 pm, in reply to "Hard to open"
108.44.129.100

The Win "AA" Featherlight 12 gauge factory shotgun shell is not suitable for anything but training a very new shooter how to pull the trigger and go bang at a stationary target. What you observed when shooting these in your L C Smith SXS was a shell that does not create enough pressure to swell up the fired primer and push your firing pin back. We have seen this before. These "AA" Featherlights will not break a flying biodegradable clay target at 20 yards reliably even when the clay is hit with 3 pellets from right under the belly of the target. These Featherlights are only good for very basic shotgun training. Good Shooting To You, Jent

Re: The Win FEATHERLIGHT "AA"s are not suitable

Posted by Norm on April 11, 2011, 12:13 am, in reply to "The Win FEATHERLIGHT "AA"s are not suitable"
67.239.50.151

Thanks Jent, good to know (and I now have a better excuse for missing all of those targets). This was a damacus gun I got the week after you measured my Smith and Baker guns at the Spring Shoot. I was using the Winchesters in deference to the uncertainty of BWT. I think I have some of Morris' RST shells around, and will try them next time. Thanks again.

Re: The Win FEATHERLIGHT "AA"s are not suitable

Posted by Steve Arnett on April 11, 2011, 9:12 am, in reply to "The Win FEATHERLIGHT "AA"s are not suitable"
174.98.108.169

Jent's experience differs from mine. A couple of years ago, I was shooting with a group at Lehigh Valley, and I ran out of my reloads. I picked up a couple of boxes of Featherlights or whatever they call them. 26 gm. (13/16 oz.) #8's at 980 ft./sec. They sound like bloopers because they are sub-sonic. However, I broke targets regularly at 35 yds., going away over the water. Truth is, you's be amazed how quickly the velocity of a standard 1,200 ft./sec. load drops down to the muzzle velocity of these loads. You really only give up about 10 yds. of effective range with them. I was shooting them in a FW 12 ga. and I don't recall having the issue described with firing pins holding up opening the gun. In today's litigous society, ammo makers have stopped publishing pressures, so there's no way of finding out whether this was a factor for this case. I did ask a Remington rep. about the pressures of the Managed Recoil load they make (7/8 oz. # 8 1/2's @ 1,100 ft./sec). He wouldn't give me a number, but said that the pressures were comparable to other STS loads. There are a LOT of Smith shooters that go to great lengths to shoot reloads that don't exceed 7,000 l.u.p., some far less than that, with very slow powders such as 7625 or 4756. I haven't heard of any complaints about firing pins sticking in the primer indentation. The only time I had a tough-to-open gun was with the same FW mentioned above, when it had a broken firing pin. The nose of the pin was floating around in the breach face, but wouldn't fall through. It would still fire, but was obviously a problem, both opening and closing the gun.

Re: The Win FEATHERLIGHT "AA"s are not suitable

Posted by BRYANT on April 11, 2011, 1:31 pm, in reply to "Re: The Win FEATHERLIGHT "AA"s are not suitable"
99.25.27.102

THIS IS INTERESTING, I HAVE BEEN SHOOTING FEATHERLIGHT IN MY OLD SMITHS FOR ABOUT 6 MONTHS. I'M ABOUT AVERAGE 22 BIRD SHOUTER AT 16 YARDS ON TRAP. MY SCORES HAVE DROOPED ABOUT 3 WITH THE LITE SHELLS. I ALSO SHOT A LEFEVER 32" SBT. MY SCORES HAVE STAYED THE SAME ABOUT 22. I HAVE 3 PREY 1913 SMITHS, 30 INCH F/F. I LOVE SHOOTING THEM OVER THE LEFEVER ON TRIP. ON SPORTING CLAYS. I SHOOT ABOUT THE SAME AS BEFORE WITH THIS SMITHS USING LITES, ABOUT 16. I SHOOT WITH A GUY THAT SHOOTS 24-25 AT 16 YARDS WITH AA LITES ON TRAP. HE SAID HE CAN'T SEE ANY CHANGE AT 16 YARDS OVER AA TRAP LOADERS, BUT AT THE LONGER YARDAGE'S HE DON'T SMOKES AS MANY. HE DON'T THANKS IT'S SPEED OR PSI, BUT THINKS ITS THE SMALLER SHOT LOADS. I SHOOT RIGHT WITH HIM ON SPORTING CLAYS. I'M A HUNTER, HES A TRAP SHOOTER. DON'T KNOW WHAT I.P.U MEANS??? REGARDS, BRYANT THOMASON

Re: The Win FEATHERLIGHT "AA"s are not suitable

Posted by Steve Arnett on April 11, 2011, 2:11 pm, in reply to "Re: The Win FEATHERLIGHT "AA"s are not suitable"
174.98.108.169

L.U.P. (I shold have capitalized it) stands for Lead Units of Pressure. The old standard way of measuring pressure of shotshells was to use a special barrel set up to insert a precisely shaped lead "crusher" between a piston that went into the chamber, and the fixture on the outside of the barrel. The lab would measure the length of the crusher before inserting it in the piston. Then they would tighten the fixture over the crusher. After firing the shell, they'd take out the crusher and measure the length again, and compare the lengths in their chart to get the pressure. It's not exactly like pounds per square inch (PSI) and they don't compare directly. Higher-pressure ammo (Rifles, and some handguns) used to use a copper crusher instead of lead, and you would find published data on C.U.P. for Copper Units of Pressure. I think all the ammo makers test pressure with electronic gear now, but as I mentioned above, they don't publish pressure any more. Folks that offer reloading data do publish pressures, though. Hodgdon lists it as "PSI", and Aliant shows "Approx. PSI" in their tables.

FEATHERLIGHT AAs are not the same as LITE AAs

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on April 11, 2011, 4:10 pm, in reply to "Re: The Win FEATHERLIGHT "AA"s are not suitable"
108.44.129.100

Like Steve pointed out, the AA FEATHERLIGHTS are subsonic, below the speed of sound at sea level, while the AA LITES are about 1100 to 1125 feet per second out of the muzzle of a test gun. I will try to get some pictures of the two boxes to post. Steve is also correct about the sound of a AA FEATERLIGHT, they just do not sound right and that will psych me out all by itself. When my shotgun does not go BANG I lift my head off of the stock, look at the gun, get confused, and forget to swing on the next target. Good Shooting To You All, Jent

Re: FEATHERLIGHT AAs are not the same as LITE AAs

Posted by BRYANT THOMASON on April 11, 2011, 9:44 pm, in reply to "FEATHERLIGHT AAs are not the same as LITE AAs"
99.25.27.102

SO SHOULD I BE SHOOT AA LITE'S OR AA FEATHERLIGHTS FROM MY OLD SMITHS???? THANKS, BRYANT

Come To Blue Ridge This Saturday And See

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on April 11, 2011, 10:24 pm, in reply to "Re: FEATHERLIGHT AAs are not the same as LITE AAs"
108.44.129.100

The best thing to do is to come to Blue Ridge Sporting Clays this Saturday and watch what we all shoot in our L C Smiths of different vintages. You might be surprised at what you see us shooting in our 12 gauge L C Smith side by sides. We do keep our LCSs in good condition and most of us have the stocks glass bedded to the actions. I myself have great confidence in several of my L C Smiths, even the ones with TWIST barrels. Good Shooting To You, Jent Posted by Chuck Bishop on January 26, 2011, Come out and join us for the fun shoot in Harrisburg Pa on April 16, 2011. It would be a great warm up for the Southern SxS later in the month. Hope to see everyone April 16th. 5th Annual Central Pa SxS Fun Shoot April 16th, 2011 9:00am to 3:00pm Blue Ridge Sportsman�s Club Harrisburg, Pa http://www.blueridgesportingclays.com/ Sporting Clays 5 stand Wobble Trap Possibly other games too! For information contact Chuck Bishop at Bishop474@comcast.net 717-579-5131

Re: Come To Blue Ridge This Saturday And See

Posted by Steve Arnett on April 12, 2011, 7:49 am, in reply to "Come To Blue Ridge This Saturday And See"
174.98.108.169

Jent has a good idea, if you can make it to Harrisburg. My two main points were that I doubt if the ammo has anything to do with your gun being hard to open. The other point is to have the gun thoroughly checked out. Based on my experience, it seems more likely to be a bent or broken firing pin that won't retract when the primer slides by it when you start to open the gun. Remember, these guns do not have springs to retract the firing pin. Only the camming action of the shell lifting up pushes the firing pin back into the breach face. The experienced Smith shooters at Harrisburg could certainly sort it out.

Re: Come To Blue Ridge This Saturday And See

Posted by David Williamson on April 12, 2011, 8:51 am, in reply to "Re: Come To Blue Ridge This Saturday And See"
174.49.147.138

It could also be that the firing pins were replaced and the tip section is a tad bit longer causing this to happen. If you have the means to take the firing pins out and measure and compare them to the original specifications it might answer your problems. I shoot reloads using the Win. AA Lite powder using the recipe given on the Hogdon Reloading site for the same store bought shells you are using, and also have never had a problem.

Re: Come To Blue Ridge This Saturday And See

Posted by BRYANT THOMASON on April 12, 2011, 9:11 am, in reply to "Re: Come To Blue Ridge This Saturday And See"
99.25.27.102

Thanks guys, I'm not the guy with the opening problem. I was just reading the thread and was asking about using featherlight. I also realize I used the word AA lites in my posting. Everware I use the word lites I meant to say featherlight. I live in Ft Worth Texas. I very much want to make one of the shoots. I'm 70 and just start shoot again. I have glass all my Smith's using DR Bill's technique. If AA lites would not damage my guns I would like to change. I read the posting every day and have learned a lot. Regards, Bryant Thomason

Winchester pressure data

Posted by Drew Hause on April 12, 2011, 3:50 pm, in reply to "FEATHERLIGHT AAs are not the same as LITE AAs"
72.222.180.155

http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/loadsuse.html

Re: Winchester pressure data

Posted by David Williamson on April 12, 2011, 4:23 pm, in reply to "Winchester pressure data"
174.49.147.138

This is right from the Hodgdon site. http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp Lead Shot 12 **26 gm. WAALite Win. 209 WAA12SL 12grs. 5,600 PSI 980 fps 26 grams of shot is .917 ounces which is less than 15/16 oz (.9375) My Mec 600 Jr. bar for 1 Oz. throws very close to 15/16 oz.

Re: Winchester pressure data

Posted by Steve Arnett on April 13, 2011, 9:09 am, in reply to "Winchester pressure data"
174.98.108.169

Dr. Drew, will you be making the pilgrimage to Sanford this year? I know it is a long way for you. Thanks for the data on the Win. factory loads. You don't get enough credit for all the excellent research you do for us!

Re: FEATHERLIGHT AAs are not the same as LITE AAs

Posted by Bob on May 8, 2012, 5:50 am, in reply to "FEATHERLIGHT AAs are not the same as LITE AAs"
174.254.52.34

Re light factory loads, I've had wonderful results in old 12 ga. guns using the Fiocchi 7/8 oz. "Trainer" shell -- low pressure, soft recoil, and hard hits on clays. I sent some to a ballistician and he measured pressure of only 6,000 PSI. With velocity of 1,200 fps, they throw better patterns for me than Winchester or Rio sub-sonics, which don't open up well in my guns. They're available in #7.5 and #8 shot and, in guns with some choke, they break targets with authority at 30+ yards. (I haven't tried Fiocchi's 20 ga. Trainers, so I can't speak about them.) Good luck!

FIOCCHI Trainer Shotgun Shells

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on May 8, 2012, 10:20 am, in reply to "Re: FEATHERLIGHT AAs are not the same as LITE AAs"
173.72.209.237

Hello Bob, Please give us more information on these FIOCCHI 7/8 ounce of lead shot 12 gauge shotgun shells. Can you post a picture of the FIOCCHI box that these shells come in ??? Where did you purchase these shotgun shells ??? This FIOCCHI Trainer Shotgun Shell could be a real benefit to many of our shooters. Good Shooting To You, Jent jentpmitchell@msn.com

Re: FIOCCHI Trainer Shotgun Shells

Posted by Drew Hause on May 8, 2012, 10:38 am, in reply to "FIOCCHI Trainer Shotgun Shells "
68.2.21.200

Here you go, and I agree with Bob http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/3483

Re: Hard to open

Posted by Bernard D. Liberati on May 8, 2012, 3:36 pm, in reply to "Hard to open"
68.46.175.207

i HAD THIS PROBLEM WITH MY 410. i CAN NOT SHOOT aa. So I changed to Remington. Apparently the shell was a mm longer. Suggest you try different loads before you take you gun apart.

no mis-fires with RST in 12 ga LCS Quality #3

Posted by Jent P. Mitchell III on May 8, 2012, 4:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Hard to open"
173.72.209.237

At The Southern SXS of 2012, just a few days ago it seems, one of my friends was having mis-fires with brand X 12 gauge ammo. He had fired about 75 12 gauge shotgun shells from maker X and had multiple failures to fire. The primer would have a small dent but the shell would not shoot. He went to the RST tent and purchased several boxes of RST 12 gauge target ammo and went out on the course at Deep River again and the gun fired perfectly every time. There were no failures to fire in his LCS 12 gauge Quality #3 SXS using RST ammo. Good Shooting To You, Jent

Re: no mis-fires with RST in 12 ga LCS Quality #3

Posted by John Liles on May 8, 2012, 5:56 pm, in reply to "no mis-fires with RST in 12 ga LCS Quality #3"
70.174.30.133

I've had the same problems with Brand X stuff, but Winchester AA loads have never been a problem. Their 209 primers seem to be the ticket. Friends reload with 209 primers, and I never have FTF problems with any of their loads. The Win 209 primers must be a little softer than others. I've also never had any problems with the RST shells, and have shot a bunch of them. I do have a little difficulty in opening some of my Elsies with the AA Winchester loads, but I'll take that over a FTF any day!

Re: Hard to open

Posted by John liles on May 8, 2012, 6:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Hard to open"
70.174.30.133

Hello Bernard, I initially had the same problem with my 410. I used some good quality powder solvent and cleaned the breach face and water-table very well,especially the inside corner between the breech-face and the water-table, and also the chamber seats where the shell butt makes contact. Then I lightly oiled the surfaces. I've not had any problem since with my 410. Even though the surfaces looked pretty clean initially, it's surprising how dirty the cleaning rags were when I was done. Good luck, John