[ Post a Response | 1250 Scale Message Board ]
Posted by SanDiegoShipMan
on 10/11/2009, 9:43 am, in reply to "Ain't no Framburg model . . ."
72.220.65.150
comments:
MM always obscured the original logo on the bottom of models used as MM masters. There may have been exceptions, but I can't recall any. The owner of MM explained to me that if a model was sufficiently "modified" which I recall was explained as being at least 40% altered, then it met the copyright requirements as a new item. I have no idea just whose standards those might be and I have no idea if there are, or were, any industry "standards" by which to determine all this. That's how it was explained to me and I have no other information on that subject. Note that this does not mean that he regularly copied other manufacturers models,and I am referring only to those that were out of copyright or CONSIDERABLY MODIFIED. Again, I have no definitions of what anyone meant by the word "modified." There are models on the MM list that I have, but cannot identify the master. The original list of models for sale I received from Metal Miniatures was back in 1972 or 1973, probably the latter, and was accompanied by a separate flyer stating the models were Framburg models. When I met Hal, he explained that he had met one of the Chicago-area craftsmen who made the molds for Framburgs and he gave the man some of his Framburg castings.
By the way, the only models I had from MM with an original logo were probably the MM version of Framburg, Comet or South Salem models. Dan Dorcy of Chicago had a large line of Framburg remakes and they all, of course, carried his logo. Most of them had some modifications made to suit him.
So, to explain to DCM what I failed to mention earlier: If MM had copied an Argonaut model, then the logo would have been obscured and (sometimes) a MM number added (in addition to other changes).
To be clear, I know of no Argonuat model that was ever copied or modified by MM. As far as I know (and I know a lot) I have never aquired any phoney-baloney Argonaut model and I always buy/trade with honest collectors. No doubt there are copiers out there who make direct copies of other people's models and leave the original logo on it, but I don't know of any. Such transactions would be very private--meaning clandestine and illegal.
Without the years of experience of a few collectors (that number is growing) there is not much chance that a novice collector would notice anything "funny" or strangely familiar about a model with a well-known logo on its bottom.
Back in the 1990s, in a militaria shop, I looked at three MM "cruisers" (actually Briitsh battleships--of course, made from Framburg model originals and perfectly legal). The militaria shop owner was asking about $35.00 each for them and didn't look too happy when I informed him what they were and were only worth about ten bucks each. To his credit, the shop owner didn't know warship types or manufacturers and couldn't place a fair value on them.
So, when you buy a model from me or anyone else I have met on SN, then if it has an Argonaut logo, then you can be sure it is authentic. I have noticed that many posters to SN come on here asking for help in identifying models--and that is a good sign that our hobby is populated by some very astute collectors. It is up to us to maintain that credibility and honesty.
And now, another cup of coffee!
--Previous Message--
: Unfortunately, beginning back in the 1970s,
: just as the Xerox machine and the computer
: turned everybody into a publisher, rubber
: mold-making material made everybody into
: producers of 1:1200 ship models. This
: includes Metal Miniatures, Red Ensign, and a
: few others whose names I have forgotten.
:
: Metal Miniatures in the 1970s began
: producing their line of ship models. Even
: though the masters for the models came from
: Comet, Framburg, South Salem Studios,
: Wiking, Mercator, Trident, Star, Neptun,
: Navis and other producers, the entire line
: was, for a time advertised as
: "Framburg" models. I should know,
: because I provided Metal Miniatures with
: more than 20 to 30 plus out-of-production
: models with no copyright protection, to use
: as masters or prototypes for MM ships. This
: included Comet and Framburg models and some
: South Salem studios models, not some of the
: others listed above, most of which were
: still in production.
:
: This, of course, was false. Not
: deliberately so, but intended more as a
: tribute to a great line of ship i.d. models
: from WWII. After all, the owners of MM were
: model railroad experts, not ship
: enthusiasts.
:
: So, many new collectors who come across
: models claimed as Framburg under the trade
: name Metal Miniatures, have been mislead
: into believing that many non-Framburg models
: are, indeed, castings of real Framburg
: models. Of course, the collectors would
: know this only if they possessed a copy of
: the original MM list and actually owned or
: at least seen all of the models offered
: under the banner "Framburg"
: models.
:
: The Albatross model came from a Comet (near
: as in can tell) model. Framburg never made
: a model of the Albatross--and damn few other
: ships, as the 1:1200 line was limited to a
: little more than fifty individual ship
: models.
:
: Good luck, collectors. Do you really know
: who made your models?
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: This week’s conversion returns to youthful
: fancies and has more than a few things wrong
: with it. The main issue is synchronicity,
: as the late 1945 paint scheme would have
: been applied when Albatross was already
: stripped as a repair ship. She had also
: left Australian service to become a simple
: “HMS.” But so be it. With the “mea culpas”
: out of the way, she is a pretty good
: illustration of the way I was enhancing
: Framburgs and Superiors in the 1970s.
:
: The work employed all the usual techniques I
: was using in this period. File off all
: molded-in detail to obtain a flat deck
: surface and take it from there. The guns,
: as most of you will recognize, are Superior
: US 5”/38 open mounts, the boats and rafts
: are Schlingelhoff plastic castings, the mast
: is surplus from a Navis pre-dreadnought, and
: all of the bulwarks and tubs are fashioned
: from sheet copper bent to shape.
:
: I sold this model to Robert Liu in Monterey
: last spring and hope he is enjoying it as
: much as I am enjoying his little book.
:
: Best to all.
:
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