Posted by Tomislav on October 1, 2003, 9:59 pm, in reply to "Re: We're on the same page" -"But heres my big problem with changing the borders
if for instance, Croatia decides to annex Herceg-Bosna
how is that different from Serb claims on Krajina and what stops Italians in Istra from deciding to join Italy?" Well I wouldn't say the Italians in Istra are a majority(I don't know but they already have enough rights as it is why ask for unification with Italy esspecialy when they are not the majority but it is very true that some parts of Istra were never realy always Croatian but thats debatable). Also Serbs claims for krajina are unfounded because krajina was never Serbians sure since the 17th century many Serbs(really majority Vlahs) have lived there but when does that make it serbian land? never in history! not even technically it has NEVER been theirs. On the other hand there is proof that most of Bosna and Hercegovina have always or at some point been associated with Croatia. Also throw in that Srijem and Boka were undeniably Croatian land prior to the formation of the first yugoslavia and you have a strong case that Croatia has been slowly disected and land has continuously been stolen from her through the centuries while Serbia has grown in size since it gained freedom from the Turks 200 years ago. We all know Seselj's a fag and his version shared by other Serb extremists of a Serbia going all the way to primorje and Zagorje is HORSE SHIT!(TOTALY BASED ON MYTH I WONT EVEN STAND TO LISTEN TO IT LET ALONE THINK ABOUT IT) they actually had thier shot in 91 and failed due to blunders on thier own part but also due to the sposobnost of the Croatian people both in Croatia and BiH and help from the diaspora. Hrvatska including parts of its historical land and serbia wanting to include parts of other peoples land is not the same thing in my opinion I dont even know why we have to debate it it seems like the serb propaganda machine even has us Cro's thinking second thoughts of whats ours and what isnt. So in short no definetly i wouldnt want to trade Istra for Herceg Bosna I would like to incorporate all of them within Croatias borders so Croatia can be a strong and stable country once again and that includes having Srijem and Boka Kotorska. This will have to be resolved one day it should be done sooner rather than later so another war wont have to happen to achieve this. ZA DOM SPREMAN
Thats correct it was Jajce(Avnoj) where the borders of the republics were created not Yalta, my bad. Yeah parts of Istra and Dalmacija were returned to Croatia but most of them were returned in 1943(NDH still) when Italy capitulated(Mussolini killed) not in 45 as most people believe however yes Istra was returned due mostly to tito.
Yeah Serbs are a strange lot they always think they have been the victims even when they are the aggressors(we are like that too sometimes but come on there has to be some sort of reasoning) for instance Serbs claim they were the worst off nation under the Turks and they heroically fought them off for 500 years yet as seen in Bosna and in Serbia the Turks let the Serbs keep thier Orthodox religion and since they were thier servents even held it in a higher regard than the Catholic Church which in Bosna was almost totaly extinguished by the same Turks. Also they claim that they were forced to go to war against Austria-Hungary because Austira annexed Bosna etc... well Bosna was never thiers to begin with yet they had the guts to kill Archduke Ferdinand in the middle of Sarajevo which prompted WW1. The Serbs have a vivid imagination and warped sense of national history and pride and it shows today as well. They attacked and openly had plans to take Bosna back in the 40's along with taking parts of Albania, Bulgaria, Vojvodina etc... and they did it again in the 90's and not just to Croatians but to all the people and places i just mentioned and YET STILL THEY ARE THE ONES BEING ATTACKED????? no wonder they would say that tito(supposed half Croat half Slovene) would draw the borders to weaken the poor innocent Serbs(please get lost).
It is true however that the borders of Avnoj had to be respected and of the 1974 consitution because on that basis we had a legal right to seperate(see how far we sunk to have to rely on those borders and guidelines to be free) and wanting to incorporate Herceg-Bosna would be a breach of what we were saying the Serbs were trying to do. In fact I have heard that after WW2 the Serbs tried to make tito declare the region of Kordun-Lika-Northern Dalmacija=krajina an autonomous province(imagine if that went through how deep shit we would be in) luckily he didnt go through with that otherwise Croatia would have been cut off at the knees and never truly free ever again.
--Previous Message--
: You definitely bring up an interesting point.
: For the last ten or fifteen years, there
: hasnt been a bigger issue in the Balkans
: than the validity of the AVNOJ borders. The
: republic borders were drawn up not at Yalta
: but at the AVNOJ conference in Jajce in 1943.
: Now there are people on the other side of
: the argument that claim for example that if
: not for Tito and the Partizans, Istra and
: parts of Dalmacija would still be part of
: Italy today. Interestingly, Serbs claim the
: borders were drawn to weaken Serbia.
: But lets step back and take a look at just
: how Croatia came to have its present day
: borders. I cant do another historical
: survey so Ill just start in 1971 with the
: MasPok. In response to this, the 1972
: Yugoslav Constitution and 1974 amendments
: created among other things, the Bosnian
: Muslim nation, the rotating Yugoslav
: presidency , autonomy for Vojvodina and
: Kosovo as well dissolving a good portion
: Yugoslavias centralist power into the hands
: of the individual republics. It also laid the
: foundation for secession and basically said
: that internal Republican borders could not be
: changed without their permission. Its also
: believed to be the basis for the conclusions
: of the Badinter Commission and consequently
: the legal basis for the secession and
: subsequent independent states of Croatia and
: Slovenia. Acceptance of Badinter Commission
: criteria cleared the way for international
: recognition of Croatia and Slovenia. The
: Commission also brought about the Bosnian
: referendum in which Croats and Muslims voted
: (Serbs boycotted) and 99.4% voted for
: independence. It was also on the basis of
: this that the Serb claims of nation rather
: than republic secession was struck down.
: But heres my big problem with changing the
: borders
if for instance, Croatia decides to
: annex Herceg-Bosna
how is that different from
: Serb claims on Krajina and what stops
: Italians in Istra from deciding to join
: Italy?
: So ultimately, the answer to your question of
: why we need to respect the current borders is
: that fact that if you want to change
: them
youd better be prepared to change ALL
: of them. Do you think the annexation of
: Western Hercegovina into Croatia is worth
: losing Istra to Italy, parts of Baranja to
: Hungary, the renaissance of Republika
: Srpska Krajina and ultimately a massive
: Serbia that fulfills Seseljs
: Karlovac-Karlobag-Virovitica border?
:
:
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