Posted by stjepankljujic on September 26, 2003, 3:53 pm, in reply to "Some thoughts on BiH Croatians" >I found this interesting. How distinct are Croats from Istria to Croats in Slavonia? How distinct are Croats Hey Ludilo: Youre absolutely correct on this point. This is precisely why the HDZ policy of svehrvatstvo is such a massive artificial catastrophe
because people in each of the regions are distinct from one another. Their efforts at creating a centralized identity are indicative of nothing but their centralist communist pasts. Language is one example. There is most certainly a Croatian linguistic tradition and I think it should be celebrated. When a nation is captive as Croatia was under Karadjordevics and Titos Yugoslavias and it attempts to protect and further that identity through language, its an amazing triumph. When it trots out words that are hundreds of years old and makes up ridiculous new ones as part of a political agenda, its farcical at best and fascist at worst (see: freedom fries). So in your example, do the Croats from Livno and Tomislavgrad have more in common with people from Sinj or with their Muslim and Orthodox neighbors in Livno and Tomislavgrad? >My point is that Croatia is a regional culture and distinctions are seen as a part of that. You made this point in one of your other posts as well and its a valid point but I think you might be missing the logical flip side. If Dubrovniks prior status as an independent state takes nothing away from its current Croatianness, then that same Croatianness also doesnt wipe out the fact that it was once independent. Thats why history is such a bi*ch
no matter what you do, you cant change it. Being part of Yugoslavia didnt negate Croatias past just like Turkish occupation and Tudjmans svehrvatsvo dont negate Bosnas individual character which I think history clearly supports. >Maybe that may not be enough to say that Bosnia is a piece of Croatia that fell away and created its own >identity, and yet the concept of a Bosnian national identity was non existant up until this war. Think about >it. Bosnian was considered a regional identity and everyone seemed ok with it. Even in Austro-Hungarian >times, the governemnt in Vienna tried to support a Bosnian identitty (mostly to offset Croatian and >Serbian claims to BiH) and the project miserably failed. If there was an identity, I would think that the >people would take advantage of it. Maybe I wasnt clear in my prior posts
I dont consider Bosnia a separate nation. But nationhood and identity are clearly two different things. My identity is most certainly American because I was born here and lived my entire life here
my nationality is Croatian just like a Catholic born in Bosnia may be Croatian by nationality, but he is also most definitely Bosnian. This was part of the reason I put up the criteria for nationhood
not as any kind of statement, but rather to generate discussion and get peoples thoughts. The point Im making is that the notion of self loathing and Bosnian Croats separating their identity from Bosna is catastrophic and new. >And now we bring ourselves full circle and have an independent BiH. Does having an independent BiH >mean a new language should be created or new identity created? Ie Puerto Rico, Mexico, and Venezuela >all speak Spanish even though they may have different local identities, while in Switzerland people speak >German, Italian, Romansch, and French but not Swiss. I can see a new political identity, but I don't know >about anything else. This is a perfect illustration of my point
even though all those people speak Spanish, does the average Mexican negate any connection with Mexico and root for Spain during the World Cup? I would highly recommend the books Bosnaski Hrvati by Ivan Lovrenovic and Vjeran Bogu, Vjeran Bosni by fra. Petar Andelovic (both are available online at sveznadar.com) to get a clear historical understanding of the fact that a new identity doesnt need to be created
its existed for centuries. The only thing thats new is the self-loathing created by pizza-man and Frankie. >As for me I am Croatian from Herecgovina. I am distinct from other Croatian regions as they are to me. Again youre 100% correct. The difference between Bosnian Croats and all those others is that no one is asking them to wipe away their identity and take on a new one. Ill end this with a piece of an interview Cardinal Puljic gave a few years ago that I think illustrates my thinking pretty well. RFE: PULJIC:
>I have been following the discussion of BiH >Hrvati and i want to throw my two cents in.
>SK: you mentioned "However, I personally do >believe that Bosnian Croats are quite distinct from other >Croats. I think that our traditions, >language and history are all distinct."
>from Dubrovnik to those in Zagorje? I'd be willing to argue that people from Sinj have more in common with >Livno and Tomislavgrad then they do with Zagorje. Ditto for Slavonci and people in Bosanska Posavina. And >yet we are all Croatian.
>You make some vaild points concerning nationhood, but my question to you is does a common territory >have to be politically united at some point and time or not to be considered part of the greater nation? A >lot of your other points tie in to this as well. Dubrovnik was an independent city state, there was the >Republic of Poljica, so there have been other states on the territory that we could ascribe as "historically >Croatian" and a Bosnian Kingdom would not be considered any different in that regard.
Since you brought up Austrian times, a time when religion was equated with nationality and the clergy formed the leadership of the same nationalities, the example of Ivan Frano Jukic is a good one. At this time, he was arguably the most important literary and intellectual figure not only among Bosnian Croats, but in Bosna in general. In 1850, he submitted to the Sultan his 28 points which is considered the very first framework of a Bosnian constitution. He tried to bring Omer-pasa Latas and Ban Jelacic together to take Bosnia out of the Ottoman empire and Croatia out of the Austrian empire so that the two bratske zemlje could form a new whole. So its obvious that he felt some affinity for Croatia. But lets take a look at his works
Bosanski prijatelj (magazine), Kolo bosansko (cultural organization), Bosanske narodne pjesme (book), Knjizevnost bosanska (study), Zemljopis i poviestnica Bosne (book). He originated the idea of a Bosanski Muzej which ended up becoming the Zemaljski Muzej in Sarajevo. And I think the pen name that he often used clearly shows to which region he felt closest, Slavoljub Bosnjak. My point is that Tudjmans idea of svehrvatstvo which was probably cooked up in Beograd has created a never before seen sense of self-loathing which has stolen everything and delivered nothing to Bosnian Croats.
Jednom ste rekli, dozvolite da vas citiram, da gdje god odemo tamo smo dosljaci. Da li su bosanski katolici dosljaci i u Zagrebu?
Mi smo to bili i bez ovog rata. Jasno da smo vrlo cesto naseljavali podrucja u Hrvatskoj, jer su ljudi isli radi zaposlenja. Ali, uvijek smo za njih bili Bosanci. Kad covjek dobrovoljno ode, to je drugacije, a kad nasilno ode i kad dozivite da smetate, to boli. A jos vise boli, jer si mislio da si dosao svome, a on te ne prihvaca svojim. Makar smo isti narod, iste vjere, ipak su to dva mentaliteta, jer mi nosimo jedan specificni mentalitet iz Bosne i Hercegovine. Makar su i Bosna i Hercegovina dva razlicita mentaliteta, ali ja bih mozda rekao onako prirodno - covjek je za cijeli zivot obiljezen svojim krajem, svojim zavicajem. Nas covjek iz Bosne kaze - to vodom tako. Jednostavno covjek je oznacen time, pa cak bi isao i tako daleko, Isus je umro pod nazivom svoga kraja, svoga zavicaja - Isus Nazarecanin. Ne smije se covjek nikad stidjeti svojih korijena iz kojih je nikao. Niti je time privilegiran, niti je time iskompleksiran krivnjom. On je ono sto jeste i time covjek treba biti ponosan, ne protiv drugog i ne na racun drugoga, nego zivjeti ljubavlju ono sto jeste i odakle je nikao. Jasno, da pogotovo ako covjek ode dalje, on je jos vise dosljak.
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