Posted by Model Builder
on 6/14/2012, 7:28 am, in reply to "Re: Requiem script detail"
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: --Previous Message--
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: >_ had been the final episode of Season 3 (as opposed to the
: series' finale,) that the cartoon would definitely have
: "jumped the shambling mound," so to speak. Under
: those circumstances, I would have hated to see what Season 4
: would have been like . . . .
:
: The main reason I like watching the show is Venger; who I think
: we can all agree is not your typical Saturday Morning cartoon
: villain. In my opinion, any attempt to replace him with any
: other "Big Bad" would have been as inadvisable as it
: would have been impossible. And any attempt to transform him
: into a "good guy," would have been far, far worse.
:
: Now, don't misunderstand; I have found the writing of Michael
: Reaves to be entertaining, thought-provoking, and satisfying
: ever since I first read "I, Alien," back in 1979. But
: "Requiem" would have been a big mistake. And, in my
: opinion, so would any attempt to "redeem" or
: "reform" Venger. Call me a cynic, but sadly, I think
: that a person can give themselves over to evil to such an extent
: that, in the end, there is nothing left of that person capable
: of being redeemed.
:
: I do have more to say on the topic of whether or not it is
: possible for someone as evil as Venger to be
: "redeemed." But for now, I need some time to collect
: and collate my thoughts before posting them haphazardly on this
: site. Fair warning: this could take some time. I tried for
: over an hour last night, and again just now for another hour.
: For now, please bear with me as I attempt to do this . . . .
:
: Absolutely, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter, so
: please take your time assembling them.
:
: Excellent point - is it possible for someone as "evil"
: as Venger to be redeemed? Okay, for starters, I thought he was
: one of the greatest Saturday Morning Big Bads ever! I wouldn't
: want so see him turn good and ruin everything the show had going
: for it, so please take the rest of my post as purely
: hypothetical. As great a villain as I think he is, I personally
: don't believe that Venger had truly achieved that level of
: complete and utter evil. We certainly saw the rather odd moments
: of compassion he displayed (as someone mentioned, when he saved
: his own, generally expendable, soldiers), and he demonstrated
: what appeared to be real affection towards his Nightmare. He had
: his own code of honor, warped as it may have been. Remember in
: "Valley of the Unicorns," when Presto accidentally
: transported himself into Venger's castle? Venger was going to
: blast the poor kid, but changed his mind, let him go, and even
: brought him back to his friends in exchange for the information
: Presto had. A really evil person would have taken the
: information and then blasted Presto anyway, just to be rid of
: one more enemy. And of course, there's the end of "Treasure
: of Tardos" when he let the kids go after they did him the
: good turn of destroying Demodragon. Significantly, Sheila then
: mused on whether Venger was really all bad - and somehow I think
: Dungeon Master agreed with her.
:
: Judging from that, there probably is some little flicker of good
: left somewhere deep down inside Venger, and it just might be
: enough for him to find redemption if he really, really wanted
: it. That, of course, is a really big "if," because
: there's obviously a LOT more bad than good there. Chances are he
: may not want to be redeemed - that's the real question. Either
: way, I just don't think opening a casket that had his "good
: side" locked away would have been the most convincing way
: to go about it.
:
: Kryschenn
:
:
:
:
: I was the one the mentioned about Venger saving his orcs and
: stroking his nightmare. Also I said about his orc captain
: speaking to him in a really friendly manner (not to mention orcs
: didn't want to go with Kareena, giving the chance and they were
: loyal to Venger... and you don't get loyalty through fear (ask
: Skeletor about that, he could write an encyclopedia about that
: XD) and about him turning Kelek's wargs into puppies (he could
: turn them into stone, that's appropiated for a children's
: cartoon... I remember one of the fairies turned Maleficent's
: crow into stone and that's a Disney movie).
:
: Also I could almost bet money in Venger knowing the kids used
: dragonbane to rip Demodragon out. I mean, he knew they were far
: out of the weapons, he knew he himself just gave them a useless
: talisman... He could add two plus two, also, he acted really
: fast when his orcs and Shadow Demon tried to capture the guys,
: sure he could has saw the scene or hear the conversation between
: the boys. I guess Venger thought in that moment: Very well, you
: cleaned up my mess, I'm not sure but... yeah, you can go.
:
: When I was a child I thought DM was a creep, using children
: against Venger on purpose. I really thought Venger was easy on
: them because they were children and he didn't battle seriously
: children
:
: And well, besides that and redemptions and whatever... Venger
: isn't the typical villain so a typical thing like a redemption
: maybe isn't appropiate for him. I don't think he thinks in
: himself like someone per sé evil, so how could be redeemed if he
: didn't think he was acting bad?
:
: I mean, Skeletor, for example, is always bragging about how evil
: he is. Mumm-Ra... Well... Ancient Spirits of Evil... man, you
: have there a hunch and also he was really into the bragging
: stuff too.
:
: Venger isn't like that, he showed compassion, he showed honor
: and he loves his nightmare and appreaciate his soldiers... I
: noted that, is the kind of thing that I note really easy, the
: little refinements of things. It's like with Presto like
: Kryschenn mentioned: He helped him. Not blast him, it's a
: children's cartoon but... kicking him in a cell, perfectly fine.
: Or even letting him back in his castle but he teleported him to
: his friends and saved their bacon. Sure, later he wanted the
: unicorns' horns but the guy has an agenda, you can't blame him
: XD
:
: So... I don't think that Venger could be redeemed, just for the
: fact that he isn't that kind of absolute evil. In fact in terms
: of D&D I saw him pretty much like a Lawful Evil character...
: Even Chaotic Good... exagerating a lot XD All depends in how
: evil DM ended up being (sorry, I can't eat DM being a good
: guy... I'm a DM in the tabletop game and I'm not a good gal at
: all, and I'm not a character, just a narrator!! XD)
:
"When I was a child I thought DM was a creep, using children against Venger on purpose. I really thought Venger was easy on them because they were children and he didn't battle seriously children."
I have to agree with you; my first impressions of Dungeon Master were not too complimentary. Venger may have been "The Force of Evil" (something that he never called himself; unlike Skeletor or Mumm-Ra,) but at least he did not kidnap a group of children from their world to fight his battles. And speaking of children . . . .
I never got the idea that Venger was "easy" on the Young Ones because of their youth. In the medieval world of The Realm, the concept of "childhood" is nothing like it would be in our own 21st century world. For that matter, "teenagers" weren't "invented" (discovered?) in our own world until the 1950's.
In medieval Europe, Hank, Eric, Diana and Sheila would have been old enough to get married. Even Bobby was old enough to be accepted as an apprentice if he were going into a profession (or to work in the fields if he was not.) And school? Forget about it.
For a good (albeit fictional,) take on 14th century life in France, I would like to recommend "Timeline" by Michael Crichton (it even comes with a bibliography!)
I personally feel that Venger's hands were tied more by network censors and sponsors than by anything else. But that said, I do think that the series' writers intended from the start that, evil though he may be, Venger should have a code of honor. If nothing else, it adds much to his depth and complexity.
I'm still thinking about how to elucidate my views regarding the "Redemption of Venger." But I am no closer now to a coherent essay than I was yesterday. I have to say that, compared to putting my ideas on this topic into writing is actually harder than writing fanfiction. (With any luck, everyone else will say what I wanted to say first, and all I will have to do then is comment on why I agree or disagree.)
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