Posted by Vengerin
on 5/26/2012, 7:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Could Venger really have done what he threatened to do . . . ."
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: My thoughts are subject to the nature of magic as established in
: the series. Their Weapons didn't work on Earth, but Venger's
: own power certainly did. I think the most important episode
: establishing the limits of his power is "The Dungeon at the
: Heart Of Dawn". The Nameless made him exhaust his power.
: Since he would not have a way to recover here, the case can be
: made that it was an empty threat.
:
: However, if Venger were capable of mingling science with his
: magic, he might well have been capable of following through with
: his threat.
:
:
: There are hints that that was possible.
:
:
: He bred Demodragon. He understood the plane in the Time Lost
: well enough to implant the knowledge of how to operate it into
: Josef's mind, and he was interested in acquiring Alfor's ship in
: another episode.
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
: And tripwires and a revolving door/trash compactor in the same
: episode as Alfor's ship (the lost children) and a tank in
: another (The traitor, remember the vehicle the orcs tried to use
: to climb the tree to Cloud Bear City)... Venger is really fond
: of technology for being a mage
:
: I think that taking that into account too, we could assume he
: could had do it fine around here ^^
:
:
:
: The only sorcerer that I know of (in fiction) who was successful
: in ". . . mingling science with his magic," is Viktor
: Von Doom. But Doom is the product of a modern, technological
: world. Venger is very much the classic, Medieval Warlord. He
: may see the power of technology, but is unaware of its
: limitations because he is not familiar with the concept.
:
: For example, his convoluted scheme of sending a 21st century
: fighter back in time to Nazi Germany to ". . . keep the
: Young Ones from being born," would probably not have worked
: for the reasons that I wrote about earlier, mainly that the
: Third Reich could not have made any good tactical use of it,
: much less been able to reverse engineer it, anymore than 21st
: century Americans would have been able to reverse engineer
: Alfor's ship.
:
: One thing that I do think is that, not only would Venger be
: unable to destroy our world, he may also destroy The Realm in
: the process of trying. Again, I am basing my opinion on the
: scenario presented in the Vertigo Comics "Fables"
: series, "Sons of Empire" story arc.
:
: When the sorcerers of the Fable lands failed, Earth struck back.
: Hard. Armies of Orcs were no match for modern infantry,
: especially when backed up with tanks. Dragons (even Tiamat, I
: would imagine,) were no match for A-10 Warthogs and Apache
: Gunships. In the end, the Fable Lands became an Earth Colony
: under Corporate administration.
:
: If The Realm's inhabitants thought life was bad under Venger,
: Kelek, Syrith, and the Duke of Darkness, just wait until they
: meet the CEO's of Haliburton . . . .
:
:
: That's right, sure Venger is a loved ruler compared to any
: corporation in the world
:
: I don't know, when thinking in it I prefer to reference the
: source material.
:
: There are worlds in D&D that have technology, gunpowder, tanks
: and even something pretty similar to robots, like Eberron, and
: in there still magic have a very good pull.
:
: But also the source material take credibility away from Venger.
: If we asume Venger extracted power in the same fashion as in the
: handbooks, without a Weave of Magic (like the atmosphere but
: present in every world with magic and is the source of magic
: users' powers), he could ran out, complete dry, after a couple
: of days; it depends of how much he used magic.
:
: But again, the Weave of Magic from a world can be restored for
: the single act of using magic, depends of how badly damaged was
: the Weave. If we asume we had a Weave in the past, in the times
: of King Arthur and times before of that and it started to fade
: away for the raise of technology, we could asume that the single
: act of Venger using magic here and people seeing him using
: magic, could restore our Weave... and that could make Venger's
: power to last but also it could provoke the raise of innate
: magic users scattered across our world, and that would be bad
: for that Venger's threat, transforming the thing into a time
: matter about how fast could Venger achieve his threat.
:
: I don't know!! XD
:
: Normally I have my opinions about Venger pretty clear but this
: time I'm pretty much half and half
:
: I did not consider the exact source of Venger's power when I
: proposed this thread. I should have. In "Dungeon at the
: Heart of Dawn," Venger lost his power, and needed to obtain
: a "recharge," for lack of a better word. Right or
: wrong, I had just assumed that magic was an innate ability that
: some people had (as in the "Potterverse,") as opposed
: to something that anyone could acquire.
:
: The impression that I got from Venger's service to The Nameless
: One was that Venger received a considerable "boost" in
: his already existing natural ability. In other words, Venger
: was always a wizard, as opposed to being just a
: "muggle" who wanted magical powers, but had none prior
: to his deal with the devil . . . .
:
: I also got the impression that because magic power is innate,
: the wizard or witch in question would still have their powers,
: regardless of where they happen to find themselves in the entire
: multiverse at any given time (even if the metaphysical laws of
: said location may have some effect the sorcerer's abilities.)
:
: The idea that a world might have a "Weave of Magic"
: suggests that a "wizard" or a "witch" has no
: internal magic power per se, but rather is someone (possibly
: anyone,) who is trained to serve as a "channel" for
: directing magical forces.
:
: One excellent fanfic that I have read that explores the idea
: that a sorcerer's power is linked to the "Weave of
: Magic" of their own world is an alternate version of
: "The Box" on Fan Fiction Net, by N.L. Rummi. In this
: story titled "Balance of Power," Venger's magic DOES
: run out in our world (with interesting results,) and is taken
: into police custody!
:
: Maybe I should amend my original topic question by specifying
: that Venger's magic is a part of him (along
: "Potterverse" lines,) and that his magic will not
: "run out."
:
:
:
: In fact in D&D, there are innates, also called Sorcerers, and
: there are people that learn how to cast spells, also called
: mages or wizards.
:
: But back to the topic, assuming Venger power is innate, doesn't
: depend of a Weave of Magic or something like that and have a
: marked limit, we could take this conversation to a whole new
: coast.
:
: I mean, we first have to think in the way Venger normally
: recharges his power (yeah, I'm with Bobby in that: I want to
: know where Venger recharges his batteries ). It is something
: over time or he has a limit like a fuel tank and he needs to
: recharge with a source.
:
: I always took the events in Dungeon at the Heart of Dawn more
: like Venger depleted his powers and he needed time to recover,
: but he hadn't that time, so he tried to use the Heart for that
: reason.
:
: I don't know, I never liked that episode, I despise it even. All
: the characters look really out of character, especially Hank and
: being myself a huge long time D&D roleplayer, the idea of Venger
: with a master or the need of having one for being all powerful
: and evil is just ridiculous to me. D&D lore is plagued with huge
: powerful beings that are just that ridiculous powerful and evil
: by themselves, like Manshoon, Szass Tam, Lord Soth... The only
: thing that I like in that episode is when Venger raise Hank from
: the ground with a single hand But it's third season, almost
: everything in that season isn't up to the standards to the rest
: of the cartoon, almost for my taste. And I include Requiem among
: all of that (everyday I thank God, ancient gods and D&D gods for
: the non-existance of that episode... For me it could kill all
: the magic of the cartoon series if it was produce).
:
: But I'm babbling... back to the topic, if Venger could recharge
: by himself, the answer is yes, if he can't, the answer is empty
: threat... See, still I'm divided in that!! XD
:
: For me, the "Dungeon at the Heart of Dawn" episode did
: take Venger down a peg or two; from "Force of Evil" to
: "Assistant Force of Evil." Kind of like finding out
: that Darth Vader was actually Second Fiddle to the Emperor . . .
: .
:
: But regarding the nature of magic in the "Dungeons and
: Dragons" (and other fictional) universes, I am still not
: sure if the wizard is actually "producing" the magic,
: or merely "tapping into the Magical Weave of the
: environment," and directing said force to a desired end.
:
: From another angle, does a wizard or witch tire from performing
: magic for an extended period of time because their
: "batteries" are running low, as Bobby suggests, and
: they need a "recharge?" Or, do they tire from the act
: of "channeling the magical weave" for an extended
: period of time (like a muggle after working a hard 9 to 5
: shift,) and simply need to rest before they do more? The end
: result is much the same, as the wizard is unable to continue
: working magic without rest.
:
: In either case, When I proposed my original question, it was
: under the assumption that Venger's magic would work anywhere he
: happened to find himself, all things being equal.
:
:
: For that I didn't like 'Dungeon at the heart of dawn'. I like to
: think in Venger as a whole threat, a man that made himself and
: raised to power by his own means. I don't like at all to think
: in him like a more handsome version of Shadow Demon for Mr.
: Spooky One
:
: And yes, I agree everything comes to an end. Even spells in D&D,
: mages are limited for a number of them by level per every rest.
: So if we say Venger has seven spells from level 0 to level 9 per
: level and he uses them all, he run out of magic until he can
: rest. Almost if he doesn't have a spell-like ability: those are
: things that a character in D&D can do without limit and in fact,
: in the official stats for Venger that Wizards of the Coast gave
: him for the release of the last dvd case, his beams of light are
: in fact a spell-like ability with unlimited uses called arcane
: fire. I'm not fond of that stats for Venger (they made him
: sorcerer in the place of mage and half-fiend... that was a
: really easy choice Also I think his level is too low) but...
: Well, that's another interesting question: Think Venger can use
: the beams of light, just the beams even if he ran out of other
: spells. Could he be able to full fit his threat with just that
: or use them to buy time to rest?
:
: And maybe another question, you said you saw Venger more like a
: war overlord... Do you think he could reconsider to destroy
: Earth, even being able to do it, after seeing all our usable on
: war goodies?
:
: Actually, what I said was that Venger is (or rather, has the
: mindset of,) a Medieval Warlord. And as such, he does not fully
: understand modern warfare.
:
: He apparently did not understand that the gift of a single, 21st
: Century fighter plane would actually hinder, rather than advance
: the cause of the Nazi war effort. Now, if he wanted to be nasty
: as well as clueless, he could have retrieved a Soviet MiG-15 for
: Joseph Mueller to take with him. Such an aircraft would have
: been just within reach of the Third Reich's technical
: understanding and industrial capabilities to make them think
: that they had a chance to reverse engineer and mass-produce. To
: Venger's chagrin, Albert Speer would have been more likely to
: have "taken the bait," and made the plane from the
: future THE priority, even over aircraft already in production
: that had proven themselves capable of killing the Allies.
:
: In truth, it would have been worse for them than the plane
: Venger actually wanted to send back . . . .
:
: As a sidebar, let's say that "our world" got its hands
: on Alfor's ship. The scenario that comes to mind is that Alfor
: and his children (the Young Ones are elsewhere when this
: happens, missing another chance to get home,) are rescued by the
: SG-1 Team. Alfor's group is sent home via the Stargate, and he
: lets Col. O'Neil keep his wrecked ship, reporting it as
: "totaled" to his insurance company.
:
: This is a ship that was developed not only by a more advanced
: society, but a society who's physicists, engineers, and
: scientists, have professional careers dozens of human-scale
: lifetimes in length. (Imagine our world if Sir Isaac Newton,
: Albert Einstein, and Stephen Hawking, not to mention aerospace
: engineers like Kelly Johnson, lived so long . . . .)
:
: In the end, the wreck of Alfor's ship would be little more than
: a scientific curiosity, a side project, while we went ahead with
: the more promising Shuttle replacement Constellation Project . .
: . .
:
: Regarding why Venger apparently never made any effort to conquer
: our world in the past (again, I am assuming that it is "our
: world" that was depicted in the cartoon; without any native
: wizards, mutants, or superheroes to challenge him,) my
: assumption is that his vision involved conquering The Realm
: first, before moving to other worlds; something that he had yet
: to accomplish for over a thousand years.
:
I never thought Venger actually selected to have that fighter plane in the first place but it was more a matter of situation and oportunity.
I mean, he was trying to get someone from Nazi Germany and all the people he gets before were... mistakes, in fact. Maybe 'cause the crystal was unstable or, I think more possible, imprecise. In fact for the way Shadow Demon said Venger about the plane, it's like he was discovering it. He didn't get the plane on purpose but I think Venger actually thought 'Hey, I have this, let me use it'.
I really think Venger was trying to change Earth's past but maybe with knowledge from the future or even with magic that worked in our world and he used the fighter 'cause he was lucky in getting it. And maybe he didn't want to change the past but just hoped the pilot could take out in the war some of the children's ancestors, and even without just one of them, there won't be Young Ones. I mean, they went together to the Dungeons and Dragons' ride 
And that raise another question: How Venger could know, if he doesn't know a thing about technology and doesn't understand it, what "flying machine" is more powerful than the other? Sure Joseph's ends like crap but actually Shadow Demon pointed out the other was better.
I still don't know, this matter is raising more questions that answers to me. Sure Venger is final phase Big Boss wings and all and could lie to get what he wanted but... maybe he knew more about Earth and was confident enough to deliver his threat