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Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by V. Wayne on May 7, 2008, 8:34 am 76.1.68.3 I am looking to buy some Heatwave semen and was wondering if it was worth the extra 40 dollars for the original. Thanks in advance.  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by Alan on May 7, 2008, 9:27 am, in reply to "Is a clone as good as the original?" 168.216.126.122 As a vet I believe the clone is just as good. Phenotype means alot but the exact same genetic structure will be passed on through the clone. Heatwave is no better than 1 or 6 unless his semen is more fertile  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by GA on May 7, 2008, 1:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 216.24.121.69 I completely disagree. As a breeder I believe there is a significant difference between the original and the clones. There is much greater consistency with original Heat Waves. You can say what you want about science but results physical results speak for themselves.  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by dragon lady on May 7, 2008, 1:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 35.10.40.139 the chromosomal DNA is the same btwn clones but the mitochondrial DNA is different - this could account for some of the reported differences  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by OH zach on May 7, 2008, 3:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 72.69.190.134 THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. as a clone develops, it picks up some kinda dna from the recipiant mother "knabe" can explain more  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by knabe on May 8, 2008, 1:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 171.65.110.37 clones are not the same, either in their chromosomal DNA, mitochondrial, or methylation. methylation is little methyl groups CH3, a carbon, which has 4 bonds, so 3 are taken up by hydrogen, and then the 4th site binds to an area of dna. this methylation pattern IS transmitted from mother to offspring. there is even evidence of methylation from the sire as well. environmental factors are stored here. differences may be such as feedstuffs, amount of feed, latitude, you name it can be stored in methylation. chromosomal dna can change simply by point mutations, and areas which may be unstable, such as direct or inverted repeats and may change during meiosis, mitosis. little is known about this. an easy example is huntingtons disease. the more copies of this gene you have, the more severe the symtpoms. this was not known till recently when the repeat sequence was finally finished, and it was noticed people had a different number of copies. these repeats of genes may not be represented correctly in reference samples of a genome, ie cattle, which is being done by baylor, and i think it's an inbred hereford, so between breeds, there may be different numbers of copies of genes, but it won't be known, unless and until more seqeuncing is done. there are several ways to determine if there is more than one copy. back to differences. gamma rays can cause mutations. if the source tissue for the clone has been mutated by these rays, no one will know until the clone has been fully sequenced. a great study would be to "fully" sequence clones and look for differences. Pacific Biosciences will sell seqeuncing machines in 2010 for over $500,000 dollars and claim to sequence a human genome for a hundred dollars in 4 minutes. the same could be done for these clones, to see the differences. clones also have different length telomeres, and maybe so do their offspring, though from what i've seen, the offspring from clones have "repaired" telomeres, which can affect ageing. it would be great if you could eat a supplement to repair them. they are basically long repeats of ATATATATATATATATATATAT. the same sequence exists in centromerers and a few other spots, usually a lot shorter than telomeres and centromeres, otherwise you would have too many sites to bind during meiosis etc. perhaps these are the areas that attach to the bundle fibers, i don't know, though i think someone does. bottom line. clones are NOT the same. methylation patterns could be examined as well, but it only requires one thing, a grant, which i can't believe hasn't been done yet. it's a great topic. kids today have great opportunities in science. bored yet?  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by Hobart Carr on May 8, 2008, 7:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 65.191.69.152 Excellent discussion here and thanks to Knabe you have my attention. Listen to his insightful and informed words. Yes with every clone Mitochondrial DNA differences do exist. Many cow family success stories within breeds are directly attributable to their mitochondrial DNA. As the energy tranformer of the cell mitochondrial efficiency is key to unlocking the potential to the gentic code. How much influence mitochondrial DNA has ultimately on performance is difficult to measure but easy to identify. Good milking cow families that still are able to rebreed under stressful conditions demonstrate this effiency of utilizing their energy sources. Chromosomal DNA expression is not just regulated by mitochondrial efficiency either. Many so called "Epigenetic" effects are controled by the Histone proteins that DNA is coiled around in storage. The epigenetic effects are influenced by a myriad of environmental factors that are not fully understood and are just now coming to light. These "Methylated" Histones target their regions of Chromosomal DNA for genetic expression or genetic silence. Perhaps the environment clones are raised in can affect the expression of their DNA. No, clones do not share mitochondrial, or chromosomal DNA with their recips, but the condition of the recip, as well as the environment she gestates, calves, and nurses her clone calf may turn out to have small but potentially significant effects on both Mitochondrial and Chromosomal DNA expression in offspring. As far as an extremely small mutation rate dramatically affecting the phenotypic expression of clones I'm not buying that argument. If you had 1000 clones you would be hard pressed to find one spontaneous mutation that could be tied to a dramatic difference in tranmitted penotypic qualities. Over millions of years yes it will have an effect, but as far as Heatwave goes don't hold your breath that a TH negative spontaneous mutation will happen in your lifetime though cloning. Besides, then that animal would have no TH advantage. Telomeric shortening and the negative effects on chromosomal DNA stability has been sighted as a complication in cloning, but in a way is itself an epigenetic phenomenon. Telomeres are chromosomal DNA that in essence protect the DNA that codes for proteins that form the biomass of the animal we ultimately consume. They reside at the ends of the chromosomes and act as the sheen, or glue that prevents chromosomal "split ends". Bottom line. Yes there is potential for slight differences between clones. From my perspective I doubt that it is worth an exta 40 bucks if you are breeding a large # of cows, or an entire herd of club calf cows in mass.(with heatwave good luck getting some sleep). However, if you are flushing a cow to produce further potential seed stock you can make the argument that the genuine article is the safest bet. With Heatwave I say this somewhat tongue in cheek because He already is a genetically "defective" Bull. Defective enough to win just about every show, but also defective enough that his genetic merit cannot be multiplied through generations. I theorize that the genetic merit of TH and PHA is likely the direct consequence of improved efficiency of gene expression. If there is only one functional copy of DNA expressing a key growth factor, protein, or substrate for cellular machinery then there is only one way that DNA can be unfolded and transcribed. If there are two effective genes that can be expressed then there will be a lag in efficiency with both potentially attempting to be expressed. Whith double heterozygosity as with the appropriately named Double Vision even further efficiency is attained and can explain these animals tremendous early maturity in muscle and bone expression. Obviously they are one generation wonders. They are not commercially or economically viable in meat animal production in the long term. BUT we should't confuse successful show cattle with commercially viable cattle. That difference has been present since the inception of showing cattle. Visual appriasal is by its nature arbitrary, capricous and based in no quantifiable human gain other than "aesthetics" or "image". I for one recognize, and embrace this reality just as I do both types of cattle. Respectfully, Hobart Carr  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by dragon lady on May 8, 2008, 9:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 216.234.125.33 Thanks Hobart - always love a few tidbits and a little gene jockeying! Back a while when Genetic Savings and Clone existed - they cloned a cat and the cloned cat had a totally different color and pattern than the original - can you explain that?? tx, DL  Post a Response

Thank You fo the Info Posted by V. Wayne on May 8, 2008, 9:52 pm, in reply to "Is a clone as good as the original?" 76.1.68.3 Thank you for taking the time to explain.  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by All gone on May 8, 2008, 10:44 pm, in reply to "Is a clone as good as the original?" 98.21.64.254 Bottom line is that unless you already have the semen, the original Heatwave is your only choice. Clones are all unavailable at this time, reason given by Lautner Farms "the clones are young and just not producing very well yet". I don't buy that on Heatwave 1 (he has to be about 4 years old!). Heatwave 1 (Wave on Wave) is what I was trying to purchase, but I would have tried Heatwave 6 if it was available. Only Heatwave available is the original at $65 per unit.  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by barron on May 8, 2008, 11:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 70.129.43.52 I've seen identical twin calves that didn't have the same white patterns, guess it could be the same thing for the cat.  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by barron on May 8, 2008, 11:18 pm, in reply to "Is a clone as good as the original?" 70.129.43.52 I was told by an embryoligist,(after we had a very poor fertilization % on a flush) that HW semen is usually poor quality compaired to the clones. He said next flush to use a clone.  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by Tim on May 9, 2008, 8:54 am, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 168.216.87.203 I'm glad to see that us "stupid farmers" actually aren't so stupid. This little conversation is a good representation of ag science at its best  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by oh on May 11, 2008, 9:53 pm, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 24.29.236.121 The reason that the cloned cat come out with a different color pattern than the original is because it lay ed different in the uterus. In the coloring of a anamal color pigments travel from the nose to the tale. So if during that time the cats right side was up against the uterus wall less or no color pigment can get those parts of the body. Thus resulting in a different color pattern.  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by ohio on May 13, 2008, 12:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 74.219.149.67 yeah, this stupid farmer had to scratch his head a time or two!  Post a Response

Re: Is a clone as good as the original? Posted by the Ole Advisor IN on May 14, 2008, 11:25 am, in reply to "Re: Is a clone as good as the original?" 165.139.0.20 As I understand it, the fetus closes at what is going to be the linea alba. (This is why sheep that are "Kempy" will have kemp on both sides of the body in the same position) Therefore pigmentation must be produced at a later date. Can anybody tell me why in some breeds of sheep (texel, North Country Cheviot) you can have a pink nosed lamb born from parents that both have black pigmentation of the nose. It is not a case of a simple autosomal ressive. Is it polygenic in gene action, or epistatic, or what? Years ago I saw the cloned Simmy/cross calves, by embryo splitting, that CSU (I think) had at the National Western. They were all different in the amount of white on them. Also do you think that TH or PHA and "hair", and "thickness" is a case of pleiotropy?  Post a Response

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