I'm wondering if US had any armed guards or other "military" onboard troopships NY to Halifax possibly arr Liverpool, Eng PRIOR to Dec 7, 1941? Any memories of such a thing?
Re: pre-Pearl Harbor
Posted by Ron Carlson on April 6, 2011, 11:34 am, in reply to "pre-Pearl Harbor"
Maggie,
The U.S. was initially prevented by law, the Neutrality Act, from arming its merchant vessels, including transport ships, even though some U.S. merchant vessels were attacked and sunk, beginning as early as November 1940. The U.S. eventually amended the Neutrality Act in November 1941 and began the task of arming its merchant vessels, even before the U.S. joined World War II. But it took time to arm vessels and train and deploy Armed Guard units on the vessels. Training of Armed Guard sailors and officers began in April 1941, and the first Armed Guard crew was placed on SS DUNBOYNE, a cargo vessel, on December 2, 1941.
U.S. merchant vessels carrying war supplies to Britain began sailing in eastbound convoys in the North Atlantic in mid-September 1941. While the U.S. vessels presumably would have been unarmed, the convoys had warship escorts and any accompanying British merchant vessels in the convoy were themselves armed. U.S. Navy and Coast Guard warships began convoy escort duty in the North Atlantic also in September 1941.
I have found information that transport ships carried passengers (although not necessarily military personnel) in both directions across the Atlantic prior to December 7, 1941, either in convoy or unescorted. If the vessels were in convoy and were British, they were armed with British gunners, plus the convoys had warship escorts. In other cases U.S. transports sailed eastbound or westbound across the Atlantic, for example to carry German and Italian diplomats and their families from the U.S. to Europe, or to take U.S. diplomats removed from their posts in Germany, German-occupied countries and Italy from Europe to the U.S. These transports were either high-speed passenger vessels (able to outrun German U-boats) or had their safe passage guaranteed, but presumably were unarmed.
In other cases prior to December 7, 1941, U.S. troopships transported U.S. troops to such locations as Wake Island, Samoa, Greenland and Iceland to construct military facilities or to man such facilities. These transports were escorted by U.S. warships.
Additionally there was at least one case of a convoy of British troop transports with 20,000 British troops aboard, as convoy CT-5, that sailed from Scotland to Halifax. These transports subsequently sailed from Halifax to the Middle East. The British ships would have had their own on-board gunners and there would have been escorting warships, either British or U.S.
I have not found information about any troop transports operating between New York or Halifax to Liverpool prior to December 7, 1941.
Ron Carlson, Webmaster Armed Guard/Merchant Marine website www.armed-guard.com
Re: pre-Pearl Harbor
Posted by Magge Gates on April 7, 2011, 11:05 am, in reply to "Re: pre-Pearl Harbor"
Thanks, Ron for all these details, a big help for my search. I have detailed description in letter written April, 1941 by my courier dad of his ship passage (no name given) arr. Liverpool March 5, 1941 (he took overnight train, arr. London March 6, 1941). He mentions many passengers onboard ship, mostly troops(?). Suggestions have been offered that this ship may have embarked from Canada with Canadian troops. Dad did not mention point of embarkation. I just assumed NY since he traveled there often to get passage to England on courier duty.
If you ever find mention of activity in this time period, I'd appreciate contact re: it. All may have been hush-hush. His military records indicate no itineraries of courier trips were required prior to 1942 I believe. Thanks again. Magge Gates
Re: pre-Pearl Harbor
Posted by Ron Carlson on April 7, 2011, 10:44 pm, in reply to "Re: pre-Pearl Harbor"
Magge,
Clearly you have some pretty good information about a large passenger-carrying ship arriving in Liverpool on or about March 5, 1941, possibly from Canada.
One suggestion is to explore the excellent ConvoyWeb website (https://www.convoyweb.org.uk/) to see if you can find a convoy arriving in Liverpool about March 5, 1941. At the time there were two convoy series that sailed between Halifax and the U.K., designated the HX series and the SC series. Most of the ships in these convoys were British, as were the escorting warships, and most of the ships carried cargo only rather than passengers (to the extent the records show what the ships were carrying at all).
There was a convoy designated HX-109 that arrived in Liverpool on March 4, 1941, having departed Halifax on Feb 13. However only one ship in that convoy was listed as carrying passengers (plus cargo) and then only three passengers -- and that ship was sunk! Umm, definitely not a match for you.
There were no SC convoys that arrived in Liverpool anywhere near your target date.
There is the possibility that the ship in question did not sail in a convoy at all. As I mentioned in my earlier message, some large, fast passenger ships traveled unescorted, on the assumption, which generally proved correct, that their speed allowed them to outrun U-boats.
ConvoyWeb does list ships sailing independently, with applicable dates and ports of departure and arrival. But unfortunately for you, one has to know the name of the ship in order to find when it sailed, whether independently or in convoy, along with dates, ports and convoy numbers, if any. So Catch-22 if you don't know the name of the ship in which your father sailed.
If the ship was not in a convoy it is more difficult to find it in ConvoyWeb. And if it was a British or Canadian transport ship I did not find mention of it since most of the information to which I have access is for U.S. vessels.
You say you have a letter with detailed information about your father's passage. You might see whether there is an indication that the ship was in convoy or not. (This is something a passenger might or might not notice, especially if the passenger was not familiar with maritime or naval operations.) And keep in mind that the arrival date of March 5 may be the date your father left the ship, not necessarily the official date the ship arrived in port, so the official arrival date might be a day or maybe even two earlier. But the key may be whether the ship sailed independently.
OK, anyway, here's another suggestion. Lately a man named Tony Cooper has been posting messages on the Armed Guard message board. Tony is affiliated with ConvoyWeb and he has successfully helped answer several other inquiries, using ConvoyWeb information. You might contact him and lay out the information you have, plus anything useful that I may have found, and see whether he can help. I don't know how closely Tony watches the message board so you may want to contact him directly. His e-mail is tonicooper6@yahoo.co.uk.
Good luck.
Ron Carlson
Re: pre-Pearl Harbor
Posted by Magge Gates on April 8, 2011, 11:01 am, in reply to "Re: pre-Pearl Harbor"
Ron,
You continue to be very helpful to me in this regard. I am reading now: Battle Report, the Atlantic War, pub 1946, (Cmdr. Walter Karig, USNR et al) with many stories of the U-Boat pursuits and merchant/battle ship movements of WWII and prior. I am glad to read in that volume of the homage given to the Armed Guard forces on that duty, with the suggestion of a volume to detail their efforts. I will follow up on your suggestions. Thanks again.
Re: pre-Pearl Harbor
Posted by Francis Kent on April 5, 2011, 10:05 pm, in reply to "pre-Pearl Harbor"
Since your question has gone unanswered here, I will offer an unsubstantiated opinion: It isn't likely that any U.S. military personnel, Armed Guard or otherwise, were placed on board merchant ships, sailing under any flag, prior to our getting into the war. Nor is it likely that any troopships carrying U.S. military personnel arrived in Halifax before then. I expect there is enough history on this site to provide an authoritative answer.
Re: pre-Pearl Harbor
Posted by Magge Gates on April 7, 2011, 11:18 am, in reply to "Re: pre-Pearl Harbor"
Thanks, Francis, your response confirms what I have realized as well. I'm concluding that my dad, in required civilian clothing, traveled perhaps through Canada with Allied troops, perhaps Canadian, to arr. Liverpool March 5, 1941. I am so much in awe of all these early protections and help we were offering the Allies before US entry into the war. Obviously, there was acceptance that we'd be in it shortly so in essence we were building towards our own security at home as well.