[ Tao Speaks ]

here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr Posted by rat on 11/4/2009, 1:18 pm 173.66.52.X (I published this one on scribd) Is there any truth to apophatic mysticism? Almost all mystics insist on the truth/authenticity of their path. Many would be offended by the suggestion that they might be fooling themselves with a mere dream or illusion. But the apophatic mystic¡ªone example would be Zhuangzi¡ªis not interested in authenticating her practice. She is interested in gaining a know-how, not in obtaining knowledge as to what is and is not ultimately true. She is only interested in le ˜·, that beautiful feeling which results in her falling in love with every being and all of being. (ÈÝ rong the all-embracing) If you tell her that she is fooling herself, this will not bother her in the least. She is interested in the know-how that will allow this deep feeling of well-being (˜·) to become non-contingent on any material event. Non-contingent le is called zile: ×Ô˜·. Zhuangzi: ¡°When she was successful she was content; and when she miserably failed she was content.¡± ( ¸FÒà˜·£¬Í¨Òà˜· . ) This does not mean that mystics like Zhuangzi are never sad, nor are they never tearful. Indeed we find out that Zhuangzi cried when his wife died. Zile indicates that there is a deep sense of well-being no matter what happens. The apophaticist has freed (jie ½â) herself of all attachments. This includes any attachment to a claim of knowing ultimate truth. She is only interested in practical truth¡ªwhatever truly lets her enjoy life at this moment.  Post a Response

Re: here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr Posted by gar on 11/4/2009, 2:40 pm, in reply to "here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr" 70.100.197.X Greetings rat, It seems to me rat that the highest priority in my metal processor is to produce chemicals that give me pleasure. But it also seems what goes up must come down so gar prefers contentment. Wikipedia; "The source of all mentally created dissatisfactions appears to stem from the ability to compare and contrast experiences and find reality as one is living it to be less than ideal.[citation needed] The solution is to seek out ways to either make experienced reality conform to the ideal or to lower expectations to the level of the experienced.[citation needed] When one can live in the moment with expectations in harmony with experiences one has achieved the greatest mental contentment possible.[citation needed] Variants of this pursuit are found in all religions and manifest in many forms of meditation and prayerful devotions." I did ask myself this morning why i was smiling looking at some green moss in the sunlight. Was it pleasure or contentment? Beats me! Macht Nichts! in peace, gar P.S. Truth seems to be in a state of flux. Why do some die and some live? The best fitted to their circumstances seem to survive. --Previous Message-- : (I published this one on scribd) : : Is there any truth to apophatic : mysticism? : : : Almost all mystics insist on the : truth/authenticity of their path. Many : would be offended by the suggestion that : they might be fooling themselves with a mere : dream or illusion. : : But the apophatic mystic¡ªone example : would be Zhuangzi¡ªis not interested in : authenticating her practice. She is : interested in gaining a know-how, not in : obtaining knowledge as to what is and is not : ultimately true. She is only interested in : le ˜·, that beautiful feeling which results : in her falling in love with every being and : all of being. (ÈÝ rong the all-embracing) : If you tell her that she is fooling herself, : this will not bother her in the least. : : She is interested in the know-how that : will allow this deep feeling of well-being : (˜·) to become non-contingent on any : material event. Non-contingent le is called : zile: ×Ô˜·. Zhuangzi: ¡°When she was : successful she was content; and when she : miserably failed she was content.¡± ( : ¸FÒà˜·£¬Í¨Òà˜· . ) : : This does not mean that mystics like : Zhuangzi are never sad, nor are they never : tearful. Indeed we find out that Zhuangzi : cried when his wife died. Zile indicates : that there is a deep sense of well-being no : matter what happens. : : The apophaticist has freed (jie ½â) : herself of all attachments. This includes : any attachment to a claim of knowing : ultimate truth. She is only interested in : practical truth¡ªwhatever truly lets her : enjoy life at this moment. : :  Post a Response

Re: here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr Posted by Nina on 11/4/2009, 7:38 pm, in reply to "here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr" 98.112.136.X Hey Rat...... Lovely stuff! I need to contact you, but I don't know which email address is operable for you now. Could you send me a note so I can find you? --Previous Message-- : (I published this one on scribd) : : Is there any truth to apophatic : mysticism? : : : Almost all mystics insist on the : truth/authenticity of their path. Many : would be offended by the suggestion that : they might be fooling themselves with a mere : dream or illusion. : : But the apophatic mystic��one example : would be Zhuangzi��is not interested in : authenticating her practice. She is : interested in gaining a know-how, not in : obtaining knowledge as to what is and is not : ultimately true. She is only interested in : le ��, that beautiful feeling which results : in her falling in love with every being and : all of being. (�� rong the all-embracing) : If you tell her that she is fooling herself, : this will not bother her in the least. : : She is interested in the know-how that : will allow this deep feeling of well-being : (��) to become non-contingent on any : material event. Non-contingent le is called : zile: �Ԙ�. Zhuangzi: ��When she was : successful she was content; and when she : miserably failed she was content.�� ( : �F����ͨ�� . ) : : This does not mean that mystics like : Zhuangzi are never sad, nor are they never : tearful. Indeed we find out that Zhuangzi : cried when his wife died. Zile indicates : that there is a deep sense of well-being no : matter what happens. : : The apophaticist has freed (jie ��) : herself of all attachments. This includes : any attachment to a claim of knowing : ultimate truth. She is only interested in : practical truth��whatever truly lets her : enjoy life at this moment. : :  Post a Response

Re: here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr Posted by redturtle on 11/5/2009, 4:15 am, in reply to "here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr" 99.136.252.X Rat, I think one needs to be careful not to fall into one of the classic problems of western philosophical thought, the true or perfect representations of thoughts and ideas (no title pun intended) This thought was drawn into question, by the argument of the dirty floor, is there a perfect dirty floor? Perhaps mysticism trying to be related to others is like trying to translate a personal language, the idea comes threw only in a larger sense. Everyone has mental maps, love maps, experience maps and maps of mystical insight. As we travel and meet fellow travelers we can quickly gaze on parts of each others maps we are familiar with but some stuff is going to be mystery because we've never been there ourselves. To extend out the metaphor, when one arrives at a destination we would compare what's on the map to the actual place and ask fellow travelers if this is indeed the destination. Sometimes we go clear off our map, that's when we do research and study to draw new parts. Never perfect and hard for others to understand. redturtle --Previous Message-- : (I published this one on scribd) : : Is there any truth to apophatic : mysticism? : : : Almost all mystics insist on the : truth/authenticity of their path. Many : would be offended by the suggestion that : they might be fooling themselves with a mere : dream or illusion. : : But the apophatic mystic¡ªone example : would be Zhuangzi¡ªis not interested in : authenticating her practice. She is : interested in gaining a know-how, not in : obtaining knowledge as to what is and is not : ultimately true. She is only interested in : le ˜·, that beautiful feeling which results : in her falling in love with every being and : all of being. (ÈÝ rong the all-embracing) : If you tell her that she is fooling herself, : this will not bother her in the least. : : She is interested in the know-how that : will allow this deep feeling of well-being : (˜·) to become non-contingent on any : material event. Non-contingent le is called : zile: ×Ô˜·. Zhuangzi: ¡°When she was : successful she was content; and when she : miserably failed she was content.¡± ( : ¸FÒà˜·£¬Í¨Òà˜· . ) : : This does not mean that mystics like : Zhuangzi are never sad, nor are they never : tearful. Indeed we find out that Zhuangzi : cried when his wife died. Zile indicates : that there is a deep sense of well-being no : matter what happens. : : The apophaticist has freed (jie ½â) : herself of all attachments. This includes : any attachment to a claim of knowing : ultimate truth. She is only interested in : practical truth¡ªwhatever truly lets her : enjoy life at this moment. : :  Post a Response

The Door to Apophatic Mysticism Posted by gar on 11/5/2009, 7:57 am, in reply to "here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr" 70.100.197.X The Door to Apophatic Mysticism Greetings rat, What seemed to be a timely coincidence was the Explorer series “Inside LSD” that aired 11-3-09. One of the things it pointed to was how our brains react when under the influence of psychedelic drugs that seem to parallel the apophatic mystic mind. So, here is my two bit analysis on the connectedness of, brain that’s tripping on psychedelic drugs and brain that’s tripping on apophatic mysticism. In order for the brain to perceive and then interpolate an experience with apophatic mystic reality some fundamental changes must occur. A sense of, “oceanic boundlessness” is a genuine term of art in neuropharmacology. One Nature article described it as measuring “derealization and depersonalization associated with positive mood ranging from heightened feelings to exaltation and alterations in the sense of time.” This oceanic boundlessness seems to come from the feeling of, loss of self, reduced fear and anxiety while experiencing life without our usual filters. With this new sense of reality zile seems possible. But does it need to come from a philosophical approach, or from a physical change in brain function? So the question is, rat, how do you open the door to Apophatic Mysticism? in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism Posted by ren ying on 11/5/2009, 10:00 am, in reply to "The Door to Apophatic Mysticism" 85.181.6.X --Previous Message-- ...: : So the question is, rat, how do you open the : door to Apophatic Mysticism? : : in peace, : gar : : Gar... this is very interesting question... i hope rat will give some informations.. - what does mean "mystic for you"? ------- for me - mystic is defined as a -right next to - access to "god" - the chinese character le is explaining how we get access to le: below you have the character mu = tree - symbolizing a power of life --- developping balanced --- using branches going towards all directions - above centered you have the character bai2 - the picture of a sun - symbolizing light... above left and right you have the character yao depicting silkworm spinning / cocoons - symbolizing the power of life - using polarized energy for harmonizing... - practizing this - using polarized energy - as it is elaborated in daodejing and yijing - you - wu // yin - yang // opposing complementing phenomena - living using both wings - we can harmonize to zile - a condition of right next access - direct access - to dao4 - zi ran - nature --- thus we can say the experience of zile is independent of a mystic experience... --- ???????????????  Post a Response

Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism Posted by gar on 11/5/2009, 11:28 am, in reply to "Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : ...: : So the question is, rat, how do you open the : door to Apophatic Mysticism? : : in peace, : gar : : : Gar... : this is very interesting question... : i hope rat will give some informations.. : - : what does mean "mystic for you"? : ------- : for me : - : mystic is defined as a -right next to - : access to "god" : - : the chinese character le is explaining how : we get access to le: : below you have the character mu = tree - : symbolizing a power of life --- developping : balanced --- using branches going towards : all directions - : above centered you have the character bai2 : - the picture of a sun - symbolizing : light... : above left and right you have the character : yao depicting silkworm spinning / cocoons : - symbolizing the power of life - using : polarized energy for harmonizing... : - : practizing this - using polarized energy - : as it is elaborated in daodejing and yijing : - : you - wu // yin - yang // opposing : complementing phenomena - living using both : wings - we can harmonize to zile - a : condition of right next access - direct : access - to dao4 - zi ran - nature : --- : thus we can say : the experience of zile is independent of a : mystic experience... : --- : ??????????????? : Greetings ren ying, "what does mean "mystic for you"? Mystic seems to mean that one has access to the "Wu state". But how to get there is the question. It seems that our brains function in a narrow state of perception and has to be changed in some way as to allow for altered consciousness. Any practice that produces connectedness, oneness, might devolep into Dr. Wang's 'actualization of oneness' or rat's apophatic mysticism. I do think the leap to the zile state, is a mystic event not a "Yu event". But because Yu and Wu are co-producing zile then zile seems to manifest itself in altered states of mind. By saying this, a mind in harmony might just be an altered mind. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism Posted by ren ying on 11/6/2009, 2:16 am, in reply to "Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism" 85.181.6.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : ...: : So the question is, rat, how do you open the : door to Apophatic Mysticism? : : in peace, : gar : : :: : Greetings ren ying, : : "what does mean "mystic for : you"? : : Mystic seems to mean that one has access to : the "Wu state". But how to get : there is the question. : : It seems that our brains function in a : narrow state of perception and has to be : changed in some way as to allow for altered : consciousness. : : Any practice that produces connectedness, : oneness, might devolep into Dr. Wang's : 'actualization of oneness' or rat's : apophatic mysticism. : : I do think the leap to the zile state, is a : mystic event not a "Yu event". But : because Yu and Wu are co-producing zile then : zile seems to manifest itself in altered : states of mind. : : By saying this, a mind in harmony might just : be an altered mind. : : in peace, : gar : : interesting point of view... to avoid misunderstandings - i would prefer to reduce the usage of "mystic" to the cultural environment the word "mystic" comes from...  Post a Response

Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism Posted by gar on 11/6/2009, 5:26 am, in reply to "Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : ...: : So the question is, rat, how do you open the : door to Apophatic Mysticism? : : in peace, : gar : : :: : Greetings ren ying, : : "what does mean "mystic for : you"? : : Mystic seems to mean that one has access to : the "Wu state". But how to get : there is the question. : : It seems that our brains function in a : narrow state of perception and has to be : changed in some way as to allow for altered : consciousness. : : Any practice that produces connectedness, : oneness, might devolep into Dr. Wang's : 'actualization of oneness' or rat's : apophatic mysticism. : : I do think the leap to the zile state, is a : mystic event not a "Yu event". But : because Yu and Wu are co-producing zile then : zile seems to manifest itself in altered : states of mind. : : By saying this, a mind in harmony might just : be an altered mind. : : in peace, : gar : : : interesting point of view... : : to avoid misunderstandings - i would prefer : to reduce the usage of "mystic" to : the cultural environment the word : "mystic" comes from... : Greetings ren ying It seems strange to me, ren ying, that you used the word god in your definition of 'mystic'. I'm confused by the word god. Is this something outside ourself? in peace, gar  Post a Response

terms Posted by ren ying on 11/6/2009, 5:46 am, in reply to "Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism" 85.181.41.X : : It seems strange to me, ren ying, that you : used the word god in your definition of : 'mystic'. : : I'm confused by the word god. Is this some : thing outside ourself? : : in peace, : gar : Gar Mirriam Websters writes about "god" 1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind 2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality 3 : a person or thing of supreme value 4 : a powerful ruler --- i would interprete this as a thing outside... ---  Post a Response

door to emptying the mind of all negative judgements.... Posted by ren ying on 11/6/2009, 6:07 am, in reply to "terms" 85.181.18.X apophatic means emptying the mind of all negative judgements.... means emptying the heart of all selfish desires... In Michael Saso - The Gold Pavilion --- interesting book ...to learn about the door to emptying the mind... the heart...  Post a Response

Re: door to emptying the mind of all negative judgements.... Posted by gar on 11/6/2009, 6:16 am, in reply to "door to emptying the mind of all negative judgements.... " 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : apophatic means emptying the mind of all : negative judgements.... : means emptying the heart of all selfish : desires... : : In Michael Saso - The Gold Pavilion : --- : interesting book ...to learn about the door : to emptying the mind... the heart... : Thank you ren ying, I'll look for the book. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr Posted by rat on 11/6/2009, 7:41 am, in reply to "Re: here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr" 173.66.52.X Hi Gar Re: “Was it pleasure or contentment?” I think the classical daoists were after what we might call a nearly unshakable sense of well-being. I experienced this phenomenon during war; combat was not a pleasure as such, and yet there was a sense of pleasure in recognizing that I was not worrying very much despite being nearly killed more than a handful of times. ciao, rat --Previous Message-- : Greetings rat, : : It seems to me rat that the highest priority : in my metal processor is to produce : chemicals that give me pleasure. But it also : seems what goes up must come down so gar : prefers contentment. : : Wikipedia; : : "The source of all mentally created : dissatisfactions appears to stem from the : ability to compare and contrast experiences : and find reality as one is living it to be : less than ideal.[citation needed] The : solution is to seek out ways to either make : experienced reality conform to the ideal or : to lower expectations to the level of the : experienced.[citation needed] When one can : live in the moment with expectations in : harmony with experiences one has achieved : the greatest mental contentment : possible.[citation needed] Variants of this : pursuit are found in all religions and : manifest in many forms of meditation and : prayerful devotions." : : I did ask myself this morning why i was : smiling looking at some green moss in the : sunlight. Was it pleasure or contentment? : : Beats me! Macht Nichts! : : in peace, : gar : : P.S. Truth seems to be in a state of flux. : : Why do some die and some live? The best : fitted to their circumstances seem to : survive. : : : :  Post a Response

Re: here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr Posted by rat on 11/6/2009, 7:46 am, in reply to "Re: here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr" 173.66.52.X Thanks Nina, will send you the info. Here's something for the egrets that I think describes zi zheng, self-perfecting or spontaneous self-optimizing: Egrets Where the path closed down and over, through the scumbled leaves, fallen branches, through the knotted catbrier, I kept going. Finally I could not save my arms from thorns; soon the mosquitoes smelled me, hot and wounded, and came wheeling and whining. And that's how I came to the edge of the pond: black and empty except for a spindle of bleached reeds at the far shore which, as I looked, wrinkled suddenly into three egrets - - - a shower of white fire! Even half-asleep they had such faith in the world that had made them - - - tilting through the water, unruffled, sure, by the laws of their faith not logic, they opened their wings softly and stepped over every dark thing. Mary Oliver  Post a Response

Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism Posted by rat on 11/6/2009, 7:51 am, in reply to "The Door to Apophatic Mysticism" 173.66.52.X --Previous Message-- : The Door to Apophatic Mysticism : : Greetings rat, : : What seemed to be a timely coincidence was : the Explorer series “Inside LSD” that aired : 11-3-09. : One of the things it pointed to was how our : brains react when under the influence of : psychedelic drugs that seem to parallel the : apophatic mystic mind. : : So, here is my two bit analysis on the : connectedness of, brain that’s tripping on : psychedelic drugs and brain that’s tripping : on apophatic mysticism. : : In order for the brain to perceive and then : interpolate an experience with apophatic : mystic reality some fundamental changes must : occur. A sense of, “oceanic boundlessness” : is a genuine term of art in : neuropharmacology. One Nature article : described it as measuring “derealization and : depersonalization associated with positive : mood ranging from heightened feelings to : exaltation and alterations in the sense of : time.” : This oceanic boundlessness seems to come : from the feeling of, loss of self, reduced : fear and anxiety while experiencing life : without our usual filters. With this new : sense of reality zile seems possible. But : does it need to come from a philosophical : approach, or from a physical change in brain : function? : : So the question is, rat, how do you open the : door to Apophatic Mysticism? : : in peace, : gar : Hi gar I open it by attempting to learn the how-to of getting out of the way of its spontaneous opening/unfolding. I do this by what I think is changing the dynamics of the brain’s functioning, and the psychology of reconceptualizing the world around me. Needless to say, this is rather complex to explain. Is there one aspect you would like me to try to describe? Here is something from my book that might be relevant: Is spirituality simply a stunning example of the placebo effect? In recent years there is increased medical research focused on the so-called placebo effect. There have been numerous examples of subjects in experiments whose intense pain has been relieved by sugar pills. Others have had remarkable improvement after being given a placebo for disabling depression. And perhaps nature also has a built-in placebo dynamic by which a person can relieve most or all of his deepest anxieties and fears about his existence, by being told that just by affirming that he possesses the ability to overcome these worries, (with or without religious belief), the ability will become actual. Perhaps the placebo effect underlies the resulting mystical ecstasy; and the physical experience of ecstasy might be due to a release of dopamine in the brain. The human psyche has the apparent ability to decide that it does not have to worry about any material event; this is called “deliverance.” If the decision is made with the right finesse, it does indeed result in an undauntable sense of deliverance, accompanied by a benign attitude toward all other beings. As you may have guessed, the question of whether or not spiritual ecstasy is merely a placebo is of no consequence to the pragmatic apophatic mystic. She does not care why she has fallen in love with everything.  Post a Response

Re: here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr Posted by rat on 11/6/2009, 7:54 am, in reply to "Re: here's a nearly non-philosophical one for Garr" 173.66.52.X --Previous Message-- : Rat, : I think one needs to be careful not to fall : into one of the classic problems of western : philosophical thought, the true or perfect : representations of thoughts and ideas (no : title pun intended) : : This thought was drawn into question, by the : argument of the dirty floor, is there a : perfect dirty floor? Perhaps mysticism : trying to be related to others is like : trying to translate a personal language, the : idea comes threw only in a larger sense. : : Everyone has mental maps, love maps, : experience maps and maps of mystical : insight. As we travel and meet fellow : travelers we can quickly gaze on parts of : each others maps we are familiar with but : some stuff is going to be mystery because : we've never been there ourselves. : : To extend out the metaphor, when one arrives : at a destination we would compare what's on : the map to the actual place and ask fellow : travelers if this is indeed the destination. : Sometimes we go clear off our map, that's : when we do research and study to draw new : parts. Never perfect and hard for others to : understand. : : redturtle : : : I agree red turtle. My sense is that I am unable to say anything for sure, except that I am sure that there is something that exists and that it is aware of it's noticing it's existence.  Post a Response

Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism Posted by gar on 11/6/2009, 8:50 am, in reply to "Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : The Door to Apophatic Mysticism : : Greetings rat, : : What seemed to be a timely coincidence was : the Explorer series “Inside LSD” that aired : 11-3-09. : One of the things it pointed to was how our : brains react when under the influence of : psychedelic drugs that seem to parallel the : apophatic mystic mind. : : So, here is my two bit analysis on the : connectedness of, brain that’s tripping on : psychedelic drugs and brain that’s tripping : on apophatic mysticism. : : In order for the brain to perceive and then : interpolate an experience with apophatic : mystic reality some fundamental changes must : occur. A sense of, “oceanic boundlessness” : is a genuine term of art in : neuropharmacology. One Nature article : described it as measuring “derealization and : depersonalization associated with positive : mood ranging from heightened feelings to : exaltation and alterations in the sense of : time.” : This oceanic boundlessness seems to come : from the feeling of, loss of self, reduced : fear and anxiety while experiencing life : without our usual filters. With this new : sense of reality zile seems possible. But : does it need to come from a philosophical : approach, or from a physical change in brain : function? : : So the question is, rat, how do you open the : door to Apophatic Mysticism? : : in peace, : gar : : Hi gar : : I open it by attempting to learn the : how-to of getting out of the way of its : spontaneous opening/unfolding. I do this by : what I think is changing the dynamics of the : brain’s functioning, and the psychology of : reconceptualizing the world around me. : Needless to say, this is rather complex to : explain. Is there one aspect you would like : me to try to describe? : : Here is something from my book that might be : relevant: : : Is spirituality simply a stunning example : of the placebo effect? : : In recent years there is increased medical : research focused on the so-called placebo : effect. There have been numerous examples : of subjects in experiments whose intense : pain has been relieved by sugar pills. : Others have had remarkable improvement after : being given a placebo for disabling : depression. : : And perhaps nature also has a built-in : placebo dynamic by which a person can : relieve most or all of his deepest anxieties : and fears about his existence, by being told : that just by affirming that he possesses the : ability to overcome these worries, (with or : without religious belief), the ability will : become actual. Perhaps the placebo effect : underlies the resulting mystical ecstasy; : and the physical experience of ecstasy might : be due to a release of dopamine in the : brain. : : The human psyche has the apparent ability : to decide that it does not have to worry : about any material event; this is called : “deliverance.” If the decision is made with : the right finesse, it does indeed result in : an undauntable sense of deliverance, : accompanied by a benign attitude toward all : other beings. : : As you may have guessed, the question of : whether or not spiritual ecstasy is merely a : placebo is of no consequence to the : pragmatic apophatic mystic. She does not : care why she has fallen in love with : everything. : Greetings rat, In your "changing the dynamics of the brain’s functioning, and the psychology of reconceptualizing the world around me." seems to suggest a deprogramming, reprogramming of the brain. If this is so, can we do this ourselves or do you think we need therapy, a master, or some outside catalyst. What is it that is getting out of the way of spontaneous opening/unfolding? "to learn the how-to of getting out of the way of its spontaneous opening/unfolding". Our mental processing?? Do you also associate the placebo effect with the practice of 'power of positive thinking'? Which seems to be tied to having faith. It seems to me that whatever causes the brain to release chemicals that induce pleasure can be a path toward deliverance from common processing. Is my reasoning too simplistic? I guess in gar's world i just try to connect with all things and that gives me satisfaction with living. in peace, gar  Post a Response

The Backdoor is Open. Posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 11/6/2009, 10:07 pm, in reply to "Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism" 71.30.136.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : The Door to Apophatic Mysticism : : Greetings rat, : : What seemed to be a timely coincidence was : the Explorer series “Inside LSD” that aired : 11-3-09. : One of the things it pointed to was how our : brains react when under the influence of : psychedelic drugs that seem to parallel the : apophatic mystic mind. : : So, here is my two bit analysis on the : connectedness of, brain that’s tripping on : psychedelic drugs and brain that’s tripping : on apophatic mysticism. : : In order for the brain to perceive and then : interpolate an experience with apophatic : mystic reality some fundamental changes must : occur. A sense of, “oceanic boundlessness” : is a genuine term of art in : neuropharmacology. One Nature article : described it as measuring “derealization and : depersonalization associated with positive : mood ranging from heightened feelings to : exaltation and alterations in the sense of : time.” : This oceanic boundlessness seems to come : from the feeling of, loss of self, reduced : fear and anxiety while experiencing life : without our usual filters. With this new : sense of reality zile seems possible. But : does it need to come from a philosophical : approach, or from a physical change in brain : function? : : So the question is, rat, how do you open the : door to Apophatic Mysticism? : : in peace, : gar : : Hi gar : : I open it by attempting to learn the : how-to of getting out of the way of its : spontaneous opening/unfolding. I do this by : what I think is changing the dynamics of the : brain’s functioning, and the psychology of : reconceptualizing the world around me. : Needless to say, this is rather complex to : explain. Is there one aspect you would like : me to try to describe? : : Here is something from my book that might be : relevant: : : Is spirituality simply a stunning example : of the placebo effect? : : In recent years there is increased medical : research focused on the so-called placebo : effect. There have been numerous examples : of subjects in experiments whose intense : pain has been relieved by sugar pills. : Others have had remarkable improvement after : being given a placebo for disabling : depression. : : And perhaps nature also has a built-in : placebo dynamic by which a person can : relieve most or all of his deepest anxieties : and fears about his existence, by being told : that just by affirming that he possesses the : ability to overcome these worries, (with or : without religious belief), the ability will : become actual. Perhaps the placebo effect : underlies the resulting mystical ecstasy; : and the physical experience of ecstasy might : be due to a release of dopamine in the : brain. : : The human psyche has the apparent ability : to decide that it does not have to worry : about any material event; this is called : “deliverance.” If the decision is made with : the right finesse, it does indeed result in : an undauntable sense of deliverance, : accompanied by a benign attitude toward all : other beings. : : As you may have guessed, the question of : whether or not spiritual ecstasy is merely a : placebo is of no consequence to the : pragmatic apophatic mystic. She does not : care why she has fallen in love with : everything. : Friends, There are many doors that lead to heaven on earth. even rats have doors. Many doors, one house. I am a backdoor man. To each his own. Front door, back door, it is the same house. Existence is both union and combine. The Tao has two faces. Fundamentally, existential discontent comes from knowing deep down in one's bones that things are not the way one has been conditioned to think they are. There's something rotten in Denmark. All is not well with the world system. Top down. The garden needs to be weeded from time to time. But there is also something to be said for a hot bowl of rat's Dukkha Soup on a cold winter's day. In limited amounts it has a homeopathic like curative power. A small dose of Dukkha can cure the ills of Dukkha. Mind or no mind. A small bowl of Dukkha Soup is good for a variety of existential ills. And it goes good with Quakers. I mean quackers. Er, crackers. For me contentment comes in knowing a distinction between subjective and objective reality. Though the two ends of the string of the continuum of existence are not separate, they are distinct. Of course all such categories of mind are arbitrary but the cameras are off and no one is looking. Conditioned thinking creates a symbolic reality. A reality that if taken too seriously becomes a false reality. Conceptualization is not the real thing, is not the thing it represents. A map of Idaho is real, but it is not Idaho. Thinking things are the way one's cultural conditioning conceives them to be is a kind of mass mesmerization. Group think. The thinking that one pole of a polarity is separate from its other pole dualistic. The Great Fragmentation. The Matrix in spades. The Simulacrum of simulacrums. For those that live unexamined lives the process of human consciousness is no longer hardware driven but software driven. Relative. Relative is a relative term. A concept, as is absolute. Software. Pure awareness has no conceptual attachments to this or that but rests in the underlying unity of all seeming opposites. The games of the monkey mind are no longer taken very seriously. Others' games, or ones' own. A light touch is taken to such things. Whether three nuts in the morning or three in the afternoon, seven nuts in all. The keeper is not free from causality. She is free to step in front of causality for she sees things as they are. The monkey mind is lost in the desert of the hyperreal. Reality TV. A thousand miles from the real. The monkey's contentment is relative. All is not subjective. No man is an island of sovereign contentment. Though I can agree that it might seem so. rat and I could just be arguing over words here. In any case, the effect of seeing the objective, the real behind the subjective symbols of the real, does leave one with a kind of contentment that no subjective discontent can long stand against. The subjective is not totally denied, it is simply put in its place. There is an order to existence. A grain to reality. Mountains are both subjective and objective, and more. Once the symbolic is no longer central to one's view of existence the objective seemingly suddenly appears. But of course it has been there all along. One wakes up to existence not as one thinks it is, but as it is of itself so. Suchness. I AM THAT I AM. The Tao. Mountains are mountains again. Only more so for now they stand in both a subjective and an objective relationship with the seer. Totality though ineffable, is a unitive one. The twin foundational fundamentals of the Perennial Philosophy. Although we cannot say what It is, we can say what It is like. Contentment is a practical matter. I just wish rat would drop any references to pragmatism. Although the pragmatic may seem practical at times in my opinion this violates the spirit of wu-wei. Our means are our ends. The sage is not selfish, she is selfless. The journey is the goal. Spontaneity not calculation is a master key to all of the doors. In my opinion. I could be wrong. Humility is another master key. I have mine right... here somewhere... crap, I may have lost it. I hate it when that happens. rat could simply be trying to reach people where they are. If that is the case, open my mouth and drown me in Octoberfest beer. As always though most of what rat has to say about life in general and mystical insight in particular resonates deep within my bones. Within my hearty mind. If he gets his book published I will buy me a copy and place it in a place of honor on my bookshelf. And yes of course I will read it. I have learned much from rat. I can only hope he has learned something from me other than patience. Though the existential is both a collective and an individual affair the journey is initially taken alone. No one can see the light for us. But we can point at the moon for each other. And rat is a very good pointer. A very sagely pointer. "Let no man that can belong to himself be of another." Paracelsus. To each his or her own door. Same house of seven nuts... acorns. Rufus T. Firefly  Post a Response

a quote Posted by ren ying on 11/8/2009, 2:30 am, in reply to "Re: door to emptying the mind of all negative judgements.... " 85.181.17.X Gar here an interesting quote from this book: ... Air drawn into the lungs is visualized to circulate from the lungs and pericardial region (the area surrounding the heart) down to the lower cinnabar field and back up again. The heart is the organ identified with fire and heat purgation, while the kidneys are the source of coolness and water purification. The ch'i is seen to circulate within this furnace, pumped in a circular motion by the bellows of the lungs. The meditation bums, washes away, and purifies all thoughts and desires, and all spiritual images, before the audience with the Tao in the Gold Pavilion can be experienced. ... (page 101, commentary for line 5 of Huang Ting Jing)  Post a Response

Re: a quote Posted by gar on 11/8/2009, 5:00 am, in reply to "a quote" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : Gar : : here an interesting quote from this book: : : ... : Air drawn into the lungs is visualized to : circulate from the lungs and pericardial : region (the area surrounding the heart) down : to the lower cinnabar field and back up : again. The heart is the organ identified : with fire and heat purgation, while the : kidneys are the source of coolness and water : purification. The ch'i is seen to circulate : within this furnace, pumped in a circular : motion by the bellows of the lungs. The : meditation bums, washes away, and purifies : all thoughts and desires, and all spiritual : images, before the audience with the Tao in : the Gold Pavilion can be experienced. : ... : (page 101, commentary for line 5 of Huang : Ting Jing) : : : Greetings ren ying, Thank you for the quote. What this is pointing to is something that I'm unfamiliar with. I do not sense ch'i and its workings. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: The Backdoor is Open. Posted by gar on 11/8/2009, 5:31 am, in reply to "The Backdoor is Open." 70.100.197.X Greetings friend, "Although the pragmatic may seem practical at times in my opinion this violates the spirit of wu-wei." It seems to me that wu-wei pragmatism is correct action if one is in balance. When you wu-wei swing the golf club you are in the zone. But if you have been taught to release the hands too soon you might have a yanking wu-wei swing. Maybe the secret for correct wu-wei is to do what needs to be done, by being what is needed to be done. P.S. Don't let your consciousness get in the way of your swing. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: The Backdoor is Open. Posted by Butcho on 11/8/2009, 8:10 am, in reply to "Re: The Backdoor is Open." 75.88.43.X --Previous Message-- : : Greetings friend, : : "Although the pragmatic may seem : practical at times in my opinion this : violates the spirit of wu-wei." : : It seems to me that wu-wei pragmatism is : correct action if one is in balance. : : When you wu-wei swing the golf club you are : in the zone. But if you have been taught to : release the hands too soon you might have a : yanking wu-wei swing. Maybe the secret for : correct wu-wei is to do what needs to be : done, by being what is needed to be done. : : P.S. Don't let your consciousness get in the : way of your swing. : : in peace, : gar : gar, I still don't like the sound of the word "pragmatism" in an existential discussion. And I still think it violates the spirit of wu-wei. But I love rat anyway. It is a good thing Steve isn't posting here right now or he would feel the need to beat your need over the head with a backhand to the need I say more. There is consciousness, and then there is self-consciousness. I can honestly say that almost every time I hit a bad shot, full, pitch, chip, or putt, it is the result of self-consciousness. The one thing I am having a hard time with is when someone stands on my line. On the tee box or the green. I will yip almost every time. I trace this back to having walked behind a friend that was swinging a golf club and it hit me in the nose. I think I may have bled to death that day but was too dumb to know it so here I am. But in truth I think it is deeper than that. I never, almost never, stand on someone else's line. Some people do it unintentionally. Some just don't know any better. But some do it as a form of gamesmanship. And sometimes I don't know which it is. And this irks me. So much so that I get flustered when it happens and usually will hit a bad shot. I guess I need a an extra dose of sovereign contentment from time to time. Don't tell Steve or rat. I wouldn't want to disillusion either one of the boys. Butcho  Post a Response

qi and apophatic practice Posted by ren ying on 11/9/2009, 2:12 am, in reply to "Re: a quote" 85.181.55.X I do not sense ch'i and : its workings. : : in peace, gar Are you kidding? ..i am sure you are a breathing person... each breathing in and breathing out... isn't it an experience of qi4...? the ancient character for qi depicts three lines: upper line: heaven lower line: earth middle line: human it is the swing between heaven and earth which is enabling us to breath... --- ...i am sure you are a thinking person... each thought --- does it not demonstrates you your ability to focus ... in other words to concentrate qi...? --- ... i am sure you are a person being able to imagine something- aren't you able to think of your wife.... though she is not present...? aren't you able to imagine fire - as a phenomenon giving heat? - as a phenomenon extinguishing matter? - as a phenomenon purifying? --- aren't you able to imagine water - as a phenomenon cleansing dirty things? --- that it is you can read in Huang Ting Jing: ... one is using the fire of heart and the water of kidneys for getting rid of negative thoughts - of getting rid of obsession ... that is apophatic practice... extinguishing them in fire and cleansing them with water... heart symbolizes the applying of fire - kidney symbolizes the applying of water... the movement of one's attention from nose to space in front of kidneys and back--- supports one's breathing in and out the focusing on the space in front of kidneys (Gold Pavilion) - it is the physical place of gravity of one's body - centers ... forgetting all thinking --- just experiencing breathing... - in... out... one can experience the movement of dao: to and fro....  Post a Response

Re: qi and apophatic practice Posted by gar on 11/9/2009, 4:44 am, in reply to "qi and apophatic practice" 70.100.197.X Greetings ren ying, You said, "i'm sure you are a breathing person, a thinking person" and yes i seem to be. But i don't seem to be a person who emphatically embraces associations that are generated through imagination. When my mental attention is on my breathing it's senses what is felt. Chest and stomach expands, the movement of air through my nose. The cooling effect of moving air as it evaporates the moisture through my airway. Then back out again. I do see value in believing in ideas that convince the mind to react in a positive way. I sometimes like to do that too. But what seems to ground me to the present is simply experience life as objectively as possible. No memory, no expectation, no imagining, just experiencing. I guess this is the delusion gar prefers. in peace, gar  Post a Response

violation of wu wei Posted by rat on 11/9/2009, 6:03 am, in reply to "Re: The Backdoor is Open." 173.66.52.X "I still don't like the sound of the word "pragmatism" in an existential discussion. And I still think it violates the spirit of wu-wei." Hi Butcho Thanks for this feedback. I find it quite plausible that you could be correct. I use the term like William James used it. And he could also very well be wrong. love, rat  Post a Response

keeping score Posted by rat on 11/9/2009, 6:16 am, in reply to "Re: The Door to Apophatic Mysticism" 173.66.52.X If this is so, : can we do this ourselves or do you think we : need therapy, a master, or some outside : catalyst. I think if a person is extremely disciplined, (for example can wait within a 5 foot diameter circle in the forest for 5 hours), and one is extremely open, willing to try almost anything (for example praying to red frogs), and one is extremely interested in changing one's psycho-neuorlocal behavior, I think on can do it without a formal director. : What is it that is getting out of the way of : spontaneous opening/unfolding? normal human behavior, particularly thought processes, and particularly those that are consciously and unconsciosly "keeping score." : : "to learn the how-to of getting out of : the way of its spontaneous : opening/unfolding". : : Our mental processing?? yes. : : Do you also associate the placebo effect : with the practice of 'power of positive : thinking'? Which seems to be tied to having : faith. Yes, except those folks disdain negativity. The daoist happily uses both positive and negative to generate the energy of transformation. : It seems to me that whatever causes the : brain to release chemicals that induce : pleasure can be a path toward deliverance : from common processing. Is my reasoning too : simplistic? I think you are right. It is a feedback loop. Contrive to put a smile on your face and the brain immediately generates "happy" chemicals. These chemicals then put a bigger smile on your face, and the loop continues indefinately. Guys like Buddha never leave the loop. : : I guess in gar's world i just try to connect : with all things and that gives me : satisfaction with living. : : in peace, : gar I don't know anything that beats that!  Post a Response

P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene Posted by rat on 11/9/2009, 6:19 am, in reply to "keeping score" 173.66.52.X I learned a deeper understanding on the importance of not keeping score from our friend Rene.  Post a Response

Re: violation of wu wei Posted by Butcho on 11/9/2009, 8:30 am, in reply to "violation of wu wei" 162.39.184.X --Previous Message-- : "I still don't like the sound of the : word "pragmatism" in an : existential discussion. And I still think it : violates the spirit of wu-wei." : : Hi Butcho : Thanks for this feedback. I find it quite : plausible that you could be correct. I use : the term like William James used it. And he : could also very well be wrong. : love, : rat : : rat, Sorry to bother you with nuance old chap. At your choice of the word pragmatism and what that suggests to me. My knee jerk reaction to the word "pragmatism" as James spelled it, and "pragmaticism" as Pierce spelled it, is to lump it into the Machiavellian ends justifying one's means category. Expediency, political, religious, or otherwise for selfish gain. From this perspective I simply find the word antithetical to the spirit of wu-wei. For me wu-wei connotes that the process is the goal. That there is no finale so to speak. I do not see contentment as a goal. Rather, I see it as a means. Part of my point also is the fact that there are many definitions of pragmatism, as you yourself have implied by referring to James. My question to you then is have you discussed your meaning of pragmatism in your book? It has also come to my attention that you talk of Sovereign Contentment not as a selfless proposition but as a selfish one. Again, I hope in your book you have discussed this provocative attitude as well. That yours is a perspective that takes into account both the subjective and the objective perspectives. That yours is not merely a subjective means to a purely subjective ends. That you are in fact putting forth or talking about all three stages of the journey to sagehood and not merely the first two. For me contentment, sovereign or otherwise, relative, absolute, or ultimate, is neither an ends in and of itself nor a means of adjusting to the status quo of man. For me contentment is a by-product of adjusting to the way of the Way. The product of acceptance of the way things are with the Way. Of letting go of conceptual rationalizations. As such I hope that you see the multispectival way of Chuang Tzu the same, or nearly the same, as I do. As an optimal way of at minimum attaining clearness of apprehension, if not complete comprehension of the way things are of themselves so. Including one's own self. Mountains are mountains again. For me contentment is a two-way process. Both selfish and selfless. Butcho  Post a Response

imagination of qi? Posted by ren ying on 11/9/2009, 8:47 am, in reply to "Re: qi and apophatic practice" 85.181.62.X : : But i don't seem to be a person who : emphatically embraces associations that are : generated through imagination. : : Gar for me this would be a misunderstanding of what happens in qigong... in the moment you are inventing something - you are not applying qi... qi is just another expression for interaction of you and wu... - of course it is an interesting question - whether humans are able to create qi... to modify qi... - i see qigong just as going in resonance with natural flow of qi or a letting go - finding peace  Post a Response

Re: violation of wu wei Posted by rat on 11/9/2009, 9:07 am, in reply to "Re: violation of wu wei" 173.66.52.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : "I still don't like the sound of the : word "pragmatism" in an : existential discussion. And I still think it : violates the spirit of wu-wei." : : Hi Butcho : Thanks for this feedback. I find it quite : plausible that you could be correct. I use : the term like William James used it. And he : could also very well be wrong. : love, : rat : : : rat, : : Sorry to bother you with nuance old chap. At : your choice of the word pragmatism and what : that suggests to me. : : My knee jerk reaction to the word : "pragmatism" as James spelled it, : and "pragmaticism" as Pierce : spelled it, is to lump it into the : Machiavellian ends justifying one's means : category. Expediency, political, religious, : or otherwise for selfish gain. From this : perspective I simply find the word : antithetical to the spirit of wu-wei. : : For me wu-wei connotes that the process is : the goal. That there is no finale so to : speak. I do not see contentment as a goal. : Rather, I see it as a means. : : Part of my point also is the fact that there : are many definitions of pragmatism, as you : yourself have implied by referring to James. : My question to you then is have you : discussed your meaning of pragmatism in your : book? : : It has also come to my attention that you : talk of Sovereign Contentment not as a : selfless proposition but as a selfish one. : Again, I hope in your book you have : discussed this provocative attitude as well. : That yours is a perspective that takes into : account both the subjective and the : objective perspectives. That yours is not : merely a subjective means to a purely : subjective ends. That you are in fact : putting forth or talking about all three : stages of the journey to sagehood and not : merely the first two. : : For me contentment, sovereign or otherwise, : relative, absolute, or ultimate, is neither : an ends in and of itself nor a means of : adjusting to the status quo of man. For me : contentment is a by-product of adjusting to : the way of the Way. The product of : acceptance of the way things are with the : Way. Of letting go of conceptual : rationalizations. As such I hope that you : see the multispectival way of Chuang Tzu the : same, or nearly the same, as I do. As an : optimal way of at minimum attaining : clearness of apprehension, if not complete : comprehension of the way things are of : themselves so. Including one's own self. : Mountains are mountains again. : : For me contentment is a two-way process. : Both selfish and selfless. : : Butcho : Hi Butcho I greaty appreciate your thoughts on this. I need to put your view on my website. That is because it seems to be nearly the opposite, if not the opposite, of mine. In my world, which is limited to my perception, and thus does not overrule your perception, the idea of selflessness is an illusion. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: violation of wu wei Posted by josef on 11/9/2009, 9:19 am, in reply to "Re: violation of wu wei" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : rat, : : Sorry to bother you with nuance old chap. At : your choice of the word pragmatism and what : that suggests to me. : : My knee jerk reaction to the word : "pragmatism" as James spelled it, : and "pragmaticism" as Pierce : spelled it, is to lump it into the : Machiavellian ends justifying one's means : category. Expediency, political, religious, : or otherwise for selfish gain. From this : perspective I simply find the word : antithetical to the spirit of wu-wei. ~~~You touch on something rat and I've gone round about rather endlessly. I also see the ends justifying the means as self-serving, thus antithetical to the spirit of wu wei. As I understand rat's words, he sees a goal, being content or happy, thus means are required. Wu wei as journey requires no goal nor means to the goal. (Without goal, "means" has no meaning.) : : For me wu-wei connotes that the process is : the goal. That there is no finale so to : speak. I do not see contentment as a goal. : Rather, I see it as a means. ~~~Agree also. Except for the last sentence, as, again, without goal there aren't means to it. Would choose rather to stay with your sense of "process". : Part of my point also is the fact that there : are many definitions of pragmatism, as you : yourself have implied by referring to James. : My question to you then is have you : discussed your meaning of pragmatism in your : book? : : It has also come to my attention that you : talk of Sovereign Contentment not as a : selfless proposition but as a selfish one. ~~~This remains the issue of departure from rat's view and my own. And yours, too apparently. : For me contentment, sovereign or otherwise, : relative, absolute, or ultimate, is neither : an ends in and of itself nor a means of : adjusting to the status quo of man. For me : contentment is a by-product of adjusting to : the way of the Way. The product of : acceptance of the way things are with the : Way. Of letting go of conceptual : rationalizations. As such I hope that you : see the multispectival way of Chuang Tzu the : same, or nearly the same, as I do. As an : optimal way of at minimum attaining : clearness of apprehension, if not complete : comprehension of the way things are of : themselves so. Including one's own self. : Mountains are mountains again. ~~~You say: "For me contentment is a by-product of adjusting to the way of the Way". That to me is the bottom line, the essence of the truth of mintd/heart/spirit fully opened, and is profoundly, precisely the difference between true needs and desires. The first time in a long time there's been a real dialogue here. Nice.  Post a Response

Re: violation of wu wei Posted by gar on 11/9/2009, 9:21 am, in reply to "Re: violation of wu wei" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : "I still don't like the sound of the : word "pragmatism" in an : existential discussion. And I still think it : violates the spirit of wu-wei." : : Hi Butcho : Thanks for this feedback. I find it quite : plausible that you could be correct. I use : the term like William James used it. And he : could also very well be wrong. : love, : rat : : : rat, : : Sorry to bother you with nuance old chap. At : your choice of the word pragmatism and what : that suggests to me. : : My knee jerk reaction to the word : "pragmatism" as James spelled it, : and "pragmaticism" as Pierce : spelled it, is to lump it into the : Machiavellian ends justifying one's means : category. Expediency, political, religious, : or otherwise for selfish gain. From this : perspective I simply find the word : antithetical to the spirit of wu-wei. : : For me wu-wei connotes that the process is : the goal. That there is no finale so to : speak. I do not see contentment as a goal. : Rather, I see it as a means. : : Part of my point also is the fact that there : are many definitions of pragmatism, as you : yourself have implied by referring to James. : My question to you then is have you : discussed your meaning of pragmatism in your : book? : : It has also come to my attention that you : talk of Sovereign Contentment not as a : selfless proposition but as a selfish one. : Again, I hope in your book you have : discussed this provocative attitude as well. : That yours is a perspective that takes into : account both the subjective and the : objective perspectives. That yours is not : merely a subjective means to a purely : subjective ends. That you are in fact : putting forth or talking about all three : stages of the journey to sagehood and not : merely the first two. : : For me contentment, sovereign or otherwise, : relative, absolute, or ultimate, is neither : an ends in and of itself nor a means of : adjusting to the status quo of man. For me : contentment is a by-product of adjusting to : the way of the Way. The product of : acceptance of the way things are with the : Way. Of letting go of conceptual : rationalizations. As such I hope that you : see the multispectival way of Chuang Tzu the : same, or nearly the same, as I do. As an : optimal way of at minimum attaining : clearness of apprehension, if not complete : comprehension of the way things are of : themselves so. Including one's own self. : Mountains are mountains again. : : For me contentment is a two-way process. : Both selfish and selfless. : : Butcho : : Hi Butcho : : I greaty appreciate your thoughts on this. : : I need to put your view on my website. That : is because it seems to be nearly the : opposite, if not the opposite, of mine. In : my world, which is limited to my perception, : and thus does not overrule your perception, : the idea of selflessness is an illusion. : : love, : rat : : greetings rat, It seems that Butcho and Josef are in the 'can be selflessness camp' and you and i are in the non-selflessness camp. But when i'm not-self, non-self will let you know, if 'no-thing' can. in peace, gar  Post a Response

correction Posted by josef on 11/9/2009, 9:22 am, in reply to "Re: violation of wu wei" 24.32.223.X : ~~~You say: : "For me contentment is a by-product of : adjusting to the way of the Way". : That to me is the bottom line, the essence : of the truth of mind/heart/spirit fully : opened, and is profoundly, precisely the : difference between ***true freedom, and personal I's needs and desires based on personal history and conditioning***.  Post a Response

Re: qi and apophatic practice Posted by josef on 11/9/2009, 9:25 am, in reply to "Re: qi and apophatic practice" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : : : Greetings ren ying, : : You said, "i'm sure you are a breathing : person, a thinking person" and yes i : seem to be. : : But i don't seem to be a person who : emphatically embraces associations that are : generated through imagination. : : When my mental attention is on my breathing : it's senses what is felt. Chest and stomach : expands, the movement of air through my : nose. The cooling effect of moving air as it : evaporates the moisture through my airway. : Then back out again. : : I do see value in believing in ideas that : convince the mind to react in a positive : way. I sometimes like to do that too. But : what seems to ground me to the present is : simply experience life as objectively as : possible. No memory, no expectation, no : imagining, just experiencing. I think you are describing (very well!) non-reification, gar. Pure experience without interpretation. Bare, direct awareness.  Post a Response

Re: qi and apophatic practice Posted by gar on 11/9/2009, 9:42 am, in reply to "Re: qi and apophatic practice" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : Greetings ren ying, : : You said, "i'm sure you are a breathing : person, a thinking person" and yes i : seem to be. : : But i don't seem to be a person who : emphatically embraces associations that are : generated through imagination. : : When my mental attention is on my breathing : it's senses what is felt. Chest and stomach : expands, the movement of air through my : nose. The cooling effect of moving air as it : evaporates the moisture through my airway. : Then back out again. : : I do see value in believing in ideas that : convince the mind to react in a positive : way. I sometimes like to do that too. But : what seems to ground me to the present is : simply experience life as objectively as : possible. No memory, no expectation, no : imagining, just experiencing. : : I think you are describing (very well!) : non-reification, gar. Pure experience : without interpretation. Bare, direct : awareness. : Greetings josef, First of all, thanks for joining in on the conversation. When you say, "The first time in a long time there's been a real dialogue here." that these words come from the non-direct awareness of observation. Question. Can we relate direct awareness or is it always skewed by our relating it? in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: qi and apophatic practice Posted by josef on 11/9/2009, 10:55 am, in reply to "Re: qi and apophatic practice" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : Greetings josef, : : First of all, thanks for joining in on the : conversation. : : When you say, "The first time in a long : time there's been a real dialogue : here." that these words come from the : non-direct awareness of observation. : : Question. Can we relate direct awareness or : is it always skewed by our relating it? : : in peace, : gar Good question. Not sure I understand your question about "can we relate direct awareness?" You mean to others? And is it skewed by our relating it? Well, my experience is that direct awareness is non-verbal, so the moment I think, ideate, use concepts or words, awareness is no longer on present what-is, but has turned attention to my thoughts, ideas, inner dialogue, etc. This ability to communicate is generally inevitable in the society of others. (There are cloistered nuns, monks, etc., who have given the vow of silence and are freer than we "in the world are in this.) As you, being a woodswalker too, know, in nature there are no words (unless we carry them in with us), so there direct awareness is easy. Functioning with other people requires a referential mode. Participating in society requires communication, a communal mode of concept-sharing (i.e.words) Being able to use it when necessary but equally able not to when it isn't necessary, it the double-walk as I understand it. Cultivating the ability of mind to think when thought is required and rest in alert stillness when not is my practice, my fascination, like a return to health after living with discomfort. Not to acquire anything, but to return to an experientially recognized harmonious equilibrium. Goals and means fall away, only the moment's requirements remain. The need to sort out which is which and what is what also falls away, as this falls plainly on the unnecessary side of the fence. :-) But relating it, as you say, falls on the need-to-think, conceptualize, verbalize side of the fence. Whatever the moment requires decides.  Post a Response

Re: violation of wu wei Posted by rat on 11/9/2009, 1:33 pm, in reply to "Re: violation of wu wei" 173.66.52.X : greetings rat, : : It seems that Butcho and Josef are in the : 'can be selflessness camp' and you and i are : in the non-selflessness camp. But when i'm : not-self, non-self will let you know, if : 'no-thing' can. : : in peace, : gar : And I will non-selflessnessly say: maybe their camp is better. Maybe I am not advanced enough, but I have yet to see any of my behavior as not being an attempt to contribute to my self-interest.  Post a Response

Re: violation of wu wei Posted by gar on 11/9/2009, 1:48 pm, in reply to "Re: violation of wu wei" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : greetings rat, : : It seems that Butcho and Josef are in the : 'can be selflessness camp' and you and i are : in the non-selflessness camp. But when i'm : not-self, non-self will let you know, if : 'no-thing' can. : : in peace, : gar : : And I will non-selflessnessly say: maybe : their camp is better. Maybe I am not : advanced enough, but I have yet to see any : of my behavior as not being an attempt to : contribute to my self-interest. : Sounds Ok to me, but my gut says, time to put the horse back in the barn. It gets beat way too often. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: violation of wu wei Posted by josef on 11/9/2009, 3:24 pm, in reply to "Re: violation of wu wei" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : And I will non-selflessnessly say: maybe : their camp is better. Maybe I am not : advanced enough, but I have yet to see any : of my behavior as not being an attempt to : contribute to my self-interest. I wonder if you are "hearing" selfless as an absolute, (which is silly, since here we are with selves). :-) Chuang Tzu is full of references to forgetting self, not having self, etc., and what I "hear" is about a state where ego no longer rules the roost but is relegating to useful, perhaps necessary second place. It seems a psychological state, not an absolute state of being, as we obviously will eat when hungry, get out of the way of approaching trains, etc. It seems to me what some of us call true self is just a natural person who isn't ruled by thoughts/desires/self-interest, but who lives in response to what comes with peace and a healthy respect for others and him/herself.  Post a Response

Re: P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene Posted by josef on 11/9/2009, 4:02 pm, in reply to "P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : I learned a deeper understanding on the : importance of not keeping score from our : friend Rene. This is interesting, rat. What does "keeping score" (or not) refer to?  Post a Response

definition of selfless Posted by rat on 11/9/2009, 5:33 pm, in reply to "Re: violation of wu wei" 173.66.52.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : And I will non-selflessnessly say: maybe : their camp is better. Maybe I am not : advanced enough, but I have yet to see any : of my behavior as not being an attempt to : contribute to my self-interest. : : I wonder if you are "hearing" : selfless as an absolute, (which is silly, : since here we are with selves). :-) Chuang : Tzu is full of references to forgetting : self, not having self, etc., and what I : "hear" is about a state where ego : no longer rules the roost but is relegating : to useful, perhaps necessary second place. : It seems a psychological state, not an : absolute state of being, as we obviously : will eat when hungry, get out of the way of : approaching trains, etc. It seems to me what : some of us call true self is just a natural : person who isn't ruled by : thoughts/desires/self-interest, but who : lives in response to what comes with peace : and a healthy respect for others and : him/herself. : : Hi Josef Here are 3 definitions I collected on the internet. Are they correct from your point of view: selfless Having, exhibiting, or motivated by no concern for oneself; unselfish Having no concern for self Devoted to others' welfare or interests and not one's own love, rat  Post a Response

Re: P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene Posted by rat on 11/9/2009, 6:41 pm, in reply to "Re: P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene" 173.66.52.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : I learned a deeper understanding on the : importance of not keeping score from our : friend Rene. : : This is interesting, rat. What does : "keeping score" (or not) refer to? : Hi Josef Keeping score on the quality of one's own behavior and making comparison's with the behavior of others. The alternative is to accept that one is already perfect, as well as is everyone else. love, rat  Post a Response

horse beatings Posted by rat on 11/9/2009, 6:44 pm, in reply to "Re: violation of wu wei" 173.66.52.X : : And I will non-selflessnessly say: maybe : their camp is better. Maybe I am not : advanced enough, but I have yet to see any : of my behavior as not being an attempt to : contribute to my self-interest. : : Sounds Ok to me, but my gut says, time to : put the horse back in the barn. It gets beat : way too often. : : in peace, : gar : Hi gar What would you say is the motive for the beatings? love, rat  Post a Response

Re: P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene Posted by Butcho on 11/9/2009, 7:30 pm, in reply to "Re: P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene" 162.39.184.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : I learned a deeper understanding on the : importance of not keeping score from our : friend Rene. : : This is interesting, rat. What does : "keeping score" (or not) refer to? : : Hi Josef : : Keeping score on the quality of one's : own behavior and making comparison's with : the behavior of others. The alternative is : to accept that one is already perfect, as : well as is everyone else. : : love, : rat : rat, I am sorry to have to tell you this but I am going to have to deduct a point from your contentment tally for name dropping. Why just the other day I was telling Wayne... whoops. Let's call it even Steven. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene Posted by josef on 11/9/2009, 7:40 pm, in reply to "Re: P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : Hi Josef : : Keeping score on the quality of one's : own behavior and making comparison's with : the behavior of others. The alternative is : to accept that one is already perfect, as : well as is everyone else. : : love, : rat Yes, not making comparisons, yes. Comparing oneself with others is unnecessary mentation, psychological busy-ness. The spiritual path requires no side glances to see how others are doing, who's faster, better, smarter, holier. Accepting that one is already perfect seems a substantial step further, though, to me; coming to an unnecessary conclusion, making a judgement "about". I guess I'm more comfortable that one just is, and so is everyone else. Perfect, I'm not sure what that would entail. Isn't it a comparison word? Perfect as compared to imperfect? Not really trying to parse words, just sort out the interior state we're talking about. *Recognition* of what's realone experiences vs. *cogitating* interpretations about it. Staying with the experience rather than reworking it with reifications seems more in harmony with wu wei, and such non-doing may in fact refer to such as this. Imo, always, of course. josef  Post a Response

Re: definition of selfless Posted by josef on 11/9/2009, 7:52 pm, in reply to "definition of selfless" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : Hi Josef : Here are 3 definitions I collected on the : internet. Are they correct from your point : of view: : : selfless : Having, exhibiting, or motivated by no : concern for oneself; unselfish : Having no concern for self : Devoted to others' welfare or interests and : not one's own : : love, : rat Well, "unselfish" in the ordinary usage of it sounds right. But the rest isn't my notion of it at all. More like having regard for all life and regarding others not more nor less than oneself. How do you understand it in the many Chuang Tzu references? (I've always wondered that.) josef  Post a Response

Breathe-in, breathe-out. Posted by Butcho on 11/9/2009, 10:12 pm, in reply to "correction" 162.39.184.X --Previous Message-- : : ~~~You say: : "For me contentment is a by-product of : adjusting to the way of the Way". : That to me is the bottom line, the essence : of the truth of mind/heart/spirit fully : opened, and is profoundly, precisely the : difference between ***true freedom, and : personal I's needs and desires based on : personal history and conditioning***. : josef, You have been missed. I agree with you about the thread, best one in a while. And it also seems that you and I are pretty much on the same page. ren ying seems to be on the same page as well swinging from selfish to selfless and beyond. Even the breath can be thought of in selfish/selfless terms. Breathe in, selfish, breathe out, selfless. Even non-cultivators breathe. There is no getting around breathing no matter how clever the dialectic. Somewhere Steve is holding his breath even as I speak. Silly monkey that one. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: definition of selfless Posted by Butcho on 11/9/2009, 10:39 pm, in reply to "Re: definition of selfless" 162.39.184.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Hi Josef : Here are 3 definitions I collected on the : internet. Are they correct from your point : of view: : : selfless : Having, exhibiting, or motivated by no : concern for oneself; unselfish : Having no concern for self : Devoted to others' welfare or interests and : not one's own : : love, : rat : : Well, "unselfish" in the ordinary : usage of it sounds right. But the rest isn't : my notion of it at all. More like having : regard for all life and regarding others not : more nor less than oneself. : : How do you understand it in the many Chuang : Tzu references? (I've always wondered that.) : : josef : josef, Where does one end and the rest of existence begin? At the skin? Or are we connected one way or the other with all of existence? Are not self and other merely two different ends of the same string? Real but not separate ends. Distinct but undivided. Each of us a part of that which has no parts. Though ineffable, totality is a unitive one. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: horse beatings Posted by gar on 11/10/2009, 6:09 am, in reply to "horse beatings" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : : And I will non-selflessnessly say: maybe : their camp is better. Maybe I am not : advanced enough, but I have yet to see any : of my behavior as not being an attempt to : contribute to my self-interest. : : Sounds Ok to me, but my gut says, time to : put the horse back in the barn. It gets beat : way too often. : : in peace, : gar : : Hi gar : : What would you say is the motive for the : beatings? : : love, : rat : Greetings rat, It seems to me that, Tao Speaks cave can be very small in that we continually whisper to the same shadows about the same things, But that we are willing to continue seems to point out that we all want to connect with others. And maybe we feel more connected when others share our views of reality. Sometimes, i feel more connected to Josef than you and other times you than Josef. Butcho is a special case because he seem more like me, but a hell of a lot smarter. So, maybe we beat the dead horse because we love one and other and desire to be more connected. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: definition of selfless Posted by josef on 11/10/2009, 7:56 am, in reply to "Re: definition of selfless" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : josef, : : Where does one end and the rest of existence : begin? At the skin? Or are we connected one : way or the other with all of existence? Are : not self and other merely two different ends : of the same string? Real but not separate : ends. Distinct but undivided. Each of us a : part of that which has no parts. : : Though ineffable, totality is a unitive one. : : Butcho Exactly. The definitions rat found put others above oneself in significance, thus have a comparison grade going. I agree with you that all are inseparable part of the seamless whole, none less, none more significant. I feel the same about the wild critters I share this patch of woods with. Unlike most in the South, I don't see them as "game", but as neighbors, fellow critters and I enjoy their company. We play our little individual lives out, as do the ants and anacondas. "We come, we go, like ripples in a stream." There's peace in that, no need to make a big deal out of anything. :-) josef  Post a Response

Selfless Selfishness Posted by Butcho on 11/10/2009, 9:47 am, in reply to "Re: definition of selfless" 75.88.40.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : josef, : : Where does one end and the rest of existence : begin? At the skin? Or are we connected one : way or the other with all of existence? Are : not self and other merely two different ends : of the same string? Real but not separate : ends. Distinct but undivided. Each of us a : part of that which has no parts. : : Though ineffable, totality is a unitive one. : : Butcho : : Exactly. The definitions rat found put : others above oneself in significance, thus : have a comparison grade going. : : I agree with you that all are inseparable : part of the seamless whole, none less, none : more significant. I feel the same about the : wild critters I share this patch of woods : with. Unlike most in the South, I don't see : them as "game", but as neighbors, : fellow critters and I enjoy their company. : : We play our little individual lives out, as : do the ants and anacondas. "We come, we : go, like ripples in a stream." There's : peace in that, no need to make a big deal : out of anything. :-) : : josef : josef, Maybe rat and gar and others are not talking about the self of self/other infamy. Perhaps they are actually speaking of the Self of existence. If that is the case then I can see how a purely Selfish act might be Selfless as well. I am trying to help rat and others of his persuasion come to a compromise on the topic before us but may just be grasping at strawdogs. Although I share your sentiment about other animals I draw the line at rattlesnakes and black widows living in my house... or termites. Although I haven't hunted in over 30 years I still see nothing wrong in the person that eats what he or she kills in a humane way. Better than these corporate meat for profit farms we have now. But it does irk me when I see the head of an animal sticking out of someone's wall as a trophy. Sport hunting is not very sporting in my opinion. Now if a person wants to take on a large black bear with a knife that might be different. I cannot help but wonder how a friend of mine might look on the wall of a cave. I think I will share this thought with him the next time I see him. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene Posted by gar on 11/11/2009, 7:55 am, in reply to "Re: P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : I learned a deeper understanding on the : importance of not keeping score from our : friend Rene. : : This is interesting, rat. What does : "keeping score" (or not) refer to? : : Hi Josef : : Keeping score on the quality of one's : own behavior and making comparison's with : the behavior of others. The alternative is : to accept that one is already perfect, as : well as is everyone else. : : love, : rat : Greetings rat, How about what William James pointed to in his "The Principles of Psychology" that "consciousness always chooses." So, if we are conscious, we are keeping score. But maybe the trick is not to grade using the dualism metric. in peace, gar  Post a Response

without scores Posted by ren ying on 11/11/2009, 9:35 am, in reply to "Re: P.S. I learned a deeper understanding of that from Rene" 85.181.37.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : I learned a deeper understanding on the : importance of not keeping score from our : friend Rene. : : This is interesting, rat. What does : "keeping score" (or not) refer to? : : Hi Josef : : Keeping score on the quality of one's : own behavior and making comparison's with : the behavior of others. The alternative is : to accept that one is already perfect, as : well as is everyone else. : : love, : rat : : Greetings rat, : : How about what William James pointed to in : his "The Principles of Psychology" : that "consciousness always : chooses." : : So, if we are conscious, we are keeping : score. But maybe the trick is not to grade : using the dualism metric. : : in peace, : gar : i think it is something essential: to be free of thinking in scores. Laozi has opened a door for this: we can integrate into a whole... being a part - everbody has a value for the whole- no need for feeling better than somebody else - is it only a trick?  Post a Response

Re: without scores Posted by gar on 11/11/2009, 10:40 am, in reply to "without scores" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : I learned a deeper understanding on the : importance of not keeping score from our : friend Rene. : : This is interesting, rat. What does : "keeping score" (or not) refer to? : : Hi Josef : : Keeping score on the quality of one's : own behavior and making comparison's with : the behavior of others. The alternative is : to accept that one is already perfect, as : well as is everyone else. : : love, : rat : : Greetings rat, : : How about what William James pointed to in : his "The Principles of Psychology" : that "consciousness always : chooses." : : So, if we are conscious, we are keeping : score. But maybe the trick is not to grade : using the dualism metric. : : in peace, : gar : : i think it is something essential: : to be free of thinking in scores. : Laozi has opened a door for this: : we can integrate into a whole... : being a part - everbody has a value for the : whole- no need for feeling better than : somebody else : - : is it only a trick? : Greetings ren ying, Is it only a trick? Keeping score seems innate and cultivating oneness seems to be the trick that keeps us from doing it. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: horse beatings Posted by rat on 11/11/2009, 1:25 pm, in reply to "Re: horse beatings" 173.66.52.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : And I will non-selflessnessly say: maybe : their camp is better. Maybe I am not : advanced enough, but I have yet to see any : of my behavior as not being an attempt to : contribute to my self-interest. : : Sounds Ok to me, but my gut says, time to : put the horse back in the barn. It gets beat : way too often. : : in peace, : gar : : Hi gar : : What would you say is the motive for the : beatings? : : love, : rat : : Greetings rat, : : It seems to me that, Tao Speaks cave can be : very small in that we continually whisper to : the same shadows about the same things, But : that we are willing to continue seems to : point out that we all want to connect with : others. And maybe we feel more connected : when others share our views of reality. : : Sometimes, i feel more connected to Josef : than you and other times you than Josef. : Butcho is a special case because he seem : more like me, but a hell of a lot smarter. : : So, maybe we beat the dead horse because we : love one and other and desire to be more : connected. : : in peace, : gar I like that gar. Even if it is not true, that puts a nice spin on it. love, rat  Post a Response

innate? Posted by ren ying on 11/11/2009, 3:11 pm, in reply to "Re: without scores" 85.181.11.X : : Keeping score seems innate and cultivating : oneness seems to be the trick that keeps us : from doing it. : : in peace, : gar : it seems innate - i think this belong more to the cultural environment...  Post a Response

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