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The Rat Hole Posted by gar on 10/10/2009, 12:22 pm 70.100.197.X Greetings rat, Just thought I'd let you know, for whatever reason, i found gar reading the rat's mystic view. http://www.apophaticmysticism.com/Index.html Shiver my timbers, mate, it's a grand voyage indeed. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: The Rat Hole Posted by Rat on 10/10/2009, 5:38 pm, in reply to "The Rat Hole" 173.66.45.X --Previous Message-- : Greetings rat, : : Just thought I'd let you know, for whatever : reason, i found gar reading the rat's mystic : view. : : : http://www.apophaticmysticism.com/Index.html : : Shiver my timbers, mate, it's a grand voyage : indeed. : : in peace, : gar : Thank you gar. I am happy that I "tuned in" tonight and noticed your post. I have a book that should be done by Thanksgiving. I hope it is an improvement on what is on the website. Here is a sample, from the back cover: "Apophatic Ecstasy If you want life to get easier, mysticism may disappoint you. If you want it to become much more interesting, you are looking in the right place. In the practice of pragmatic apophatic mysticism, as in other mystical traditions, one makes a profound surrender. But it needn’t be surrender to a God, nor to an atheism. It is rather surrendering to an experiential process. The process does not involve claims or denials, beliefs or disbeliefs, or any assurance that either truth or self-deception can be verified. The apophatic mystic realizes herself to be a participant in a mystical process and through her surrender to it she is able to intimately engage and enjoy its dynamics. Looking at the various mystical traditions we find analogues of this surrendering process in almost all of them. In the atheism of Georges Bataille we find his condemnation of “project.” In the deism of Martin Luther we have “faith, not works.” The agnostic approach of Zhuangzi aims at “categorical surrender.” Surrender allows us to fall into a psycho-physical disposition which puts us in touch with an astonishing dynamic, one that is naturally found in the ground of our being. We learn how to let our psyche liberate itself. It sounds naïve, but summoning this deliverance is a knack which can be learned. It is demonstrable and is almost always reliable: At every moment you have a natural ability to decide how well you want to feel about being in this world." love, rat  Post a Response

Surrender Posted by gar on 10/11/2009, 5:38 am, in reply to "Re: The Rat Hole" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Greetings rat, : : Just thought I'd let you know, for whatever : reason, i found gar reading the rat's mystic : view. : : : : http://www.apophaticmysticism.com/Index.html : : Shiver my timbers, mate, it's a grand voyage : indeed. : : in peace, : gar : : Thank you gar. I am happy that I : "tuned in" tonight and noticed : your post. I have a book that should be : done by Thanksgiving. I hope it is an : improvement on what is on the website. : : Here is a sample, from the back cover: : : "Apophatic Ecstasy : : If you want life to get easier, mysticism : may disappoint you. If you want it to : become much more interesting, you are : looking in the right place. : : In the practice of pragmatic apophatic : mysticism, as in other mystical traditions, : one makes a profound surrender. But it : needn’t be surrender to a God, nor to an : atheism. It is rather surrendering to an : experiential process. The process does not : involve claims or denials, beliefs or : disbeliefs, or any assurance that either : truth or self-deception can be verified. : The apophatic mystic realizes herself to be : a participant in a mystical process and : through her surrender to it she is able to : intimately engage and enjoy its dynamics. : : Looking at the various mystical traditions : we find analogues of this surrendering : process in almost all of them. In the : atheism of Georges Bataille we find his : condemnation of “project.” In the deism : of Martin Luther we have “faith, not : works.” The agnostic approach of Zhuangzi : aims at “categorical surrender.” : Surrender allows us to fall into a : psycho-physical disposition which puts us in : touch with an astonishing dynamic, one that : is naturally found in the ground of our : being. We learn how to let our psyche : liberate itself. : : It sounds naïve, but summoning this : deliverance is a knack which can be learned. : It is demonstrable and is almost always : reliable: At every moment you have a natural : ability to decide how well you want to feel : about being in this world." : : love, : rat : Greetings rat, It seems to me that in the process of surrendering the psyche, faith becomes the lifeboat. But what we place our faith in seems to shape are psyche. So, are you suggesting that, a possible path of existence is to have 'faith in faith' in which all things shape our psyche? Perhaps, a frameless psyche? Congratulations on your new book. Looking forward to reading it and being shaped by the experience. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: Surrender Posted by rat on 10/11/2009, 6:47 pm, in reply to "Surrender" 173.66.45.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Greetings rat, : : Just thought I'd let you know, for whatever : reason, i found gar reading the rat's mystic : view. : : : : : http://www.apophaticmysticism.com/Index.html : : Shiver my timbers, mate, it's a grand voyage : indeed. : : in peace, : gar : : Thank you gar. I am happy that I : "tuned in" tonight and noticed : your post. I have a book that should be : done by Thanksgiving. I hope it is an : improvement on what is on the website. : : Here is a sample, from the back cover: : : "Apophatic Ecstasy : : If you want life to get easier, mysticism : may disappoint you. If you want it to : become much more interesting, you are : looking in the right place. : : In the practice of pragmatic apophatic : mysticism, as in other mystical traditions, : one makes a profound surrender. But it : needn’t be surrender to a God, nor to an : atheism. It is rather surrendering to an : experiential process. The process does not : involve claims or denials, beliefs or : disbeliefs, or any assurance that either : truth or self-deception can be verified. : The apophatic mystic realizes herself to be : a participant in a mystical process and : through her surrender to it she is able to : intimately engage and enjoy its dynamics. : : Looking at the various mystical traditions : we find analogues of this surrendering : process in almost all of them. In the : atheism of Georges Bataille we find his : condemnation of “project.” In the deism : of Martin Luther we have “faith, not : works.” The agnostic approach of Zhuangzi : aims at “categorical surrender.” : Surrender allows us to fall into a : psycho-physical disposition which puts us in : touch with an astonishing dynamic, one that : is naturally found in the ground of our : being. We learn how to let our psyche : liberate itself. : : It sounds naïve, but summoning this : deliverance is a knack which can be learned. : It is demonstrable and is almost always : reliable: At every moment you have a natural : ability to decide how well you want to feel : about being in this world." : : love, : rat : : Greetings rat, : : It seems to me that in the process of : surrendering the psyche, faith becomes the : lifeboat. But what we place our faith in : seems to shape are psyche. So, are you : suggesting that, a possible path of : existence is to have 'faith in faith' in : which all things shape our psyche? : : Perhaps, a frameless psyche? : : Congratulations on your new book. Looking : forward to reading it and being shaped by : the experience. : : in peace, : gar : Thanks gar. Yes, a non-sectarian faith, and which is only provisional. Like Zhuangzi, I think whatever faith works for me today may fail to work tomorrow. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: The Rat Hole Posted by Butcho on 10/11/2009, 8:53 pm, in reply to "Re: The Rat Hole" 75.88.40.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Greetings rat, : : Just thought I'd let you know, for whatever : reason, i found gar reading the rat's mystic : view. : : : : http://www.apophaticmysticism.com/Index.html : : Shiver my timbers, mate, it's a grand voyage : indeed. : : in peace, : gar : : Thank you gar. I am happy that I : "tuned in" tonight and noticed : your post. I have a book that should be : done by Thanksgiving. I hope it is an : improvement on what is on the website. : : Here is a sample, from the back cover: : : "Apophatic Ecstasy : : If you want life to get easier, mysticism : may disappoint you. If you want it to : become much more interesting, you are : looking in the right place. : : In the practice of pragmatic apophatic : mysticism, as in other mystical traditions, : one makes a profound surrender. But it : needn’t be surrender to a God, nor to an : atheism. It is rather surrendering to an : experiential process. The process does not : involve claims or denials, beliefs or : disbeliefs, or any assurance that either : truth or self-deception can be verified. : The apophatic mystic realizes herself to be : a participant in a mystical process and : through her surrender to it she is able to : intimately engage and enjoy its dynamics. : : Looking at the various mystical traditions : we find analogues of this surrendering : process in almost all of them. In the : atheism of Georges Bataille we find his : condemnation of “project.” In the deism : of Martin Luther we have “faith, not : works.” The agnostic approach of Zhuangzi : aims at “categorical surrender.” : Surrender allows us to fall into a : psycho-physical disposition which puts us in : touch with an astonishing dynamic, one that : is naturally found in the ground of our : being. We learn how to let our psyche : liberate itself. : : It sounds naïve, but summoning this : deliverance is a knack which can be learned. : It is demonstrable and is almost always : reliable: At every moment you have a natural : ability to decide how well you want to feel : about being in this world." : : love, : rat : rat, I am glad to hear your book is becoming a reality. I know you have poured a lot of yourself into it. I feel your words will reveal to the open minded a benevolent heart rooted in the natural rhythms of existence. Over the past few years I have come to think of you as a midwife to the highest good of each pregnant moment. I am confident that you will add something of note to the literature where the shift from dualistic thinking to non-dual awareness is concerned. Bravo! Butcho  Post a Response

Re: The Rat Hole Posted by rat on 10/13/2009, 6:40 am, in reply to "Re: The Rat Hole" 173.66.45.X : : : rat, : : I am glad to hear your book is becoming a : reality. I know you have poured a lot of : yourself into it. I feel your words will : reveal to the open minded a benevolent heart : rooted in the natural rhythms of existence. : Over the past few years I have come to think : of you as a midwife to the highest good of : each pregnant moment. I am confident that : you will add something of note to the : literature where the shift from dualistic : thinking to non-dual awareness is concerned. : Bravo! : : Butcho : : : You are too kind Butcho. �When the mind is transparent and pure as if reflected on the mirror-like surface of the water, there is nothing in the world that you would dislike. When it is serene as the light breeze in the sunshine, there will be no one whom you would like to forget.� Pa-ta Shan-jen 17th century painter Translated by Chang Chung-yuan in his book �Creativity and Taoism, A Study of Chinese Philosophy, Art, and Poetry.  Post a Response

Re: The Rat Hole Posted by Butcho on 10/13/2009, 7:57 am, in reply to "Re: The Rat Hole" 75.88.45.X --Previous Message-- : : : : rat, : : I am glad to hear your book is becoming a : reality. I know you have poured a lot of : yourself into it. I feel your words will : reveal to the open minded a benevolent heart : rooted in the natural rhythms of existence. : Over the past few years I have come to think : of you as a midwife to the highest good of : each pregnant moment. I am confident that : you will add something of note to the : literature where the shift from dualistic : thinking to non-dual awareness is concerned. : Bravo! : : Butcho : : : : You are too kind Butcho. : : �When the mind is transparent and pure as : if reflected on the mirror-like surface of : the water, there is nothing in the world : that you would dislike. When it is serene : as the light breeze in the sunshine, there : will be no one whom you would like to : forget.� : : Pa-ta Shan-jen 17th century painter : Translated by Chang Chung-yuan in his book : �Creativity and Taoism, A Study of Chinese : Philosophy, Art, and Poetry. : : rat, If I have told you once I have told you a thousand times, I am not too kind. I am one of a kind. .... Sounds to me like Pa-ta had Wa-ta on the brain. And yet he was an airhead. Go figure. Jus' kiddin'. Sorry, I have been in this mood lately. Every time someone other than me gets serious it seems I have to choose between a heart attachment and a humidor and since the ladder has a rung missing I naturally jump around quite a bite for such a small dog. Wayne Long. will translate for the kitty's. Maybe now that you are nearly done trying to please the Parabola crowd you can hang out here a little more. Snobs anyway. The water really is quite fine here. Except of course when it storms. Such is the ebb and flow of existence. I hope your book sells a million copies. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: The Rat Hole Posted by rene on 10/13/2009, 9:57 am, in reply to "Re: The Rat Hole" 76.85.202.X --Previous Message-- : At every moment you have a natural : ability to decide how well you want to feel : about being in this world. The springtime in every moment. I hope you know how much I've learned from you already and am looking forward to your book. hello rat (-:  Post a Response

Re: The Rat Hole Posted by rat on 10/18/2009, 8:56 pm, in reply to "Re: The Rat Hole" 173.66.52.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : : rat, : : I am glad to hear your book is becoming a : reality. I know you have poured a lot of : yourself into it. I feel your words will : reveal to the open minded a benevolent heart : rooted in the natural rhythms of existence. : Over the past few years I have come to think : of you as a midwife to the highest good of : each pregnant moment. I am confident that : you will add something of note to the : literature where the shift from dualistic : thinking to non-dual awareness is concerned. : Bravo! : : Butcho : : : : You are too kind Butcho. : : �When the mind is transparent and pure as : if reflected on the mirror-like surface of : the water, there is nothing in the world : that you would dislike. When it is serene : as the light breeze in the sunshine, there : will be no one whom you would like to : forget.� : : Pa-ta Shan-jen 17th century painter : Translated by Chang Chung-yuan in his book : �Creativity and Taoism, A Study of Chinese : Philosophy, Art, and Poetry. : : : : rat, : : If I have told you once I have told you a : thousand times, I am not too kind. I am one : of a kind. : : .... Sounds to me like Pa-ta had Wa-ta on : the brain. And yet he was an airhead. Go : figure. : : Jus' kiddin'. : : Sorry, I have been in this mood lately. : Every time someone other than me gets : serious it seems I have to choose between a : heart attachment and a humidor and since the : ladder has a rung missing I naturally jump : around quite a bite for such a small dog. : : Wayne Long. will translate for the kitty's. : : Maybe now that you are nearly done trying to : please the Parabola crowd you can hang out : here a little more. Snobs anyway. The water : really is quite fine here. Except of course : when it storms. Such is the ebb and flow of : existence. : : I hope your book sells a million copies. : : Butcho : Thanks Butcho. I think anyone who understands apophatic mysticism would not write a book about it. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: The Rat Hole Posted by rat on 10/18/2009, 9:00 pm, in reply to "Re: The Rat Hole" 173.66.52.X --Previous Message-- : --Previous Message-- : At every moment you have a natural : ability to decide how well you want to feel : about being in this world. : : The springtime in every moment. : : I hope you know how much I've learned from : you already and am looking forward to your : book. : : hello rat (-: : : Thank you Rene. I will email you when it gets done. Many of the subjects in the book are written more clearly as a result of discussions with you. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: The Rat Hole Posted by Butcho on 10/18/2009, 11:36 pm, in reply to "Re: The Rat Hole" 71.30.136.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : : rat, : : I am glad to hear your book is becoming a : reality. I know you have poured a lot of : yourself into it. I feel your words will : reveal to the open minded a benevolent heart : rooted in the natural rhythms of existence. : Over the past few years I have come to think : of you as a midwife to the highest good of : each pregnant moment. I am confident that : you will add something of note to the : literature where the shift from dualistic : thinking to non-dual awareness is concerned. : Bravo! : : Butcho : : : : You are too kind Butcho. : : �When the mind is transparent and pure as : if reflected on the mirror-like surface of : the water, there is nothing in the world : that you would dislike. When it is serene : as the light breeze in the sunshine, there : will be no one whom you would like to : forget.� : : Pa-ta Shan-jen 17th century painter : Translated by Chang Chung-yuan in his book : �Creativity and Taoism, A Study of Chinese : Philosophy, Art, and Poetry. : : : : rat, : : If I have told you once I have told you a : thousand times, I am not too kind. I am one : of a kind. : : .... Sounds to me like Pa-ta had Wa-ta on : the brain. And yet he was an airhead. Go : figure. : : Jus' kiddin'. : : Sorry, I have been in this mood lately. : Every time someone other than me gets : serious it seems I have to choose between a : heart attachment and a humidor and since the : ladder has a rung missing I naturally jump : around quite a bite for such a small dog. : : Wayne Long. will translate for the kitty's. : : Maybe now that you are nearly done trying to : please the Parabola crowd you can hang out : here a little more. Snobs anyway. The water : really is quite fine here. Except of course : when it storms. Such is the ebb and flow of : existence. : : I hope your book sells a million copies. : : Butcho : : Thanks Butcho. I think anyone who : understands apophatic mysticism would not : write a book about it. : love, : rat : rat, All writings about the ultimate nature of existence are contaminated. All of the most sacred of books, the vedas, the bibles, the korans, all of them, the I Ching, the Blue Cliff Record, the Heart Sutra, the Diamond Sutra, are all contaminated for it is the nature of words that the moment we speak a truth it becomes a lie. As soon as we say the existential is this way then it is also that way. Such is the dualistic nature of words. Words create contradictions when they are allowed to play by their own rules. So don't let them. Existential truth cannot be found in words until it is found within first. Truth is discovered within the deep silence within each of us. Whatever it is, we are the Tao. And it is us. Such things cannot be discovered in any book. Until a man or a woman becomes an opened scripture unto themselves all the words of mystical insight that have ever been written are just so many words. So why write? Because among other things words can be used to show the shortcomings of words. Words can be used to point at the moon. To point at that which is beyond words. Like a sign on a road. So do not be disheartened or feign dis-ingenuousness my friend, your effort to write a book from Chuang Tzu's perspective as best you know how is not in vain. It has helped you if no one else. And I believe it already has and will continue to help others as well. Others that are genuine in their pursuit of truth. As Rilke pointed out in "Letter To A Young Poet" the solitude of writing is both a burden and a gift. Solitude is the foundation for all genuine work. There is no substitute for the creativity and love that pour out from within in the loneliness of writing from the heart. I expect your book will be more than scholarly. Anyone can write about the times, the eternities are a horse of a different color. You are not anyone. You are more than one. The more you have gone into yourself the more of yourself will come out in your writings about mysticism in general, apophatic mysticism in particular. If your words are rejected or not appreciated by some or many do not let such things detract from the contentment you have found within. Let the chips fall where they may. You can't please everyone. The natural man is like a clear river flowing to the sea. The unnatural man is like a stagnant pond. All of our boundaries are arbitrary. Let no one, including yourself, fence you in. The Tao is an open book. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: The Rat Hole Posted by gae on 10/19/2009, 6:32 am, in reply to "Re: The Rat Hole" 70.100.197.X Greetings Butcho, Good words indeed, my friend. in peace, gar : : rat, : : All writings about the ultimate nature of : existence are contaminated. All of the most : sacred of books, the vedas, the bibles, the : korans, all of them, the I Ching, the Blue : Cliff Record, the Heart Sutra, the Diamond : Sutra, are all contaminated for it is the : nature of words that the moment we speak a : truth it becomes a lie. As soon as we say : the existential is this way then it is also : that way. Such is the dualistic nature of : words. Words create contradictions when they : are allowed to play by their own rules. So : don't let them. : : Existential truth cannot be found in words : until it is found within first. Truth is : discovered within the deep silence within : each of us. Whatever it is, we are the Tao. : And it is us. Such things cannot be : discovered in any book. Until a man or a : woman becomes an opened scripture unto : themselves all the words of mystical insight : that have ever been written are just so many : words. So why write? : : Because among other things words can be used : to show the shortcomings of words. Words can : be used to point at the moon. To point at : that which is beyond words. Like a sign on a : road. So do not be disheartened or feign : dis-ingenuousness my friend, your effort to : write a book from Chuang Tzu's perspective : as best you know how is not in vain. It has : helped you if no one else. And I believe it : already has and will continue to help others : as well. Others that are genuine in their : pursuit of truth. : : As Rilke pointed out in "Letter To A : Young Poet" the solitude of writing is : both a burden and a gift. Solitude is the : foundation for all genuine work. There is no : substitute for the creativity and love that : pour out from within in the loneliness of : writing from the heart. I expect your book : will be more than scholarly. Anyone can : write about the times, the eternities are a : horse of a different color. You are not : anyone. You are more than one. : : The more you have gone into yourself the : more of yourself will come out in your : writings about mysticism in general, : apophatic mysticism in particular. If your : words are rejected or not appreciated by : some or many do not let such things detract : from the contentment you have found within. : Let the chips fall where they may. You can't : please everyone. : : The natural man is like a clear river : flowing to the sea. The unnatural man is : like a stagnant pond. All of our boundaries : are arbitrary. Let no one, including : yourself, fence you in. The Tao is an open : book. : : Butcho :  Post a Response

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