[ Tao Speaks ]

question to Butch Posted by ren ying on 6/20/2009, 2:18 am 85.181.46.X Hello Butch Do you have anywhere published in details your way of meditaiton?  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Butcho on 6/20/2009, 4:37 pm, in reply to "question to Butch" 162.39.190.X --Previous Message-- : Hello Butch : : Do you have anywhere published in details : your way of meditaiton? : ren ying, My method of meditation is pretty much the "Vipassana" or "Insight" method made famous by the Buddha. I combine Vipassana with my Hatha Yoga practice. At its heart Vipassana is the practice of mindfulness. It is a practice that is both pragmatic and spiritual. Clarity of thought gives way to an openness to the great mystery of existence. But for me insight comes in stages. I claim no perfection of understanding. I still catch myself being judgmental at times. But I also know that being non-judgmental does not mean not knowing an apple from a pear. Or a good piece of fruit from a bad. Being non-judgmental does not mean being stupid. Quite the contrary. It simply means not letting conditioned thinking control one's mind. Vipassana with Hatha Yoga is a "dual" method of cultivation much like the "Cultivating Stillness" method of Taoism. Both mind and body are cultivated. Although the language is different both methods are about making a full return to the Emptiness that is empty even of emptiness, the Great Affirmation, or in the language of Taoism the full return to the Wu-Chi, to the eternal Tao. The Void that is the Source of T'ai-Chi. The axis of the wheel. Both methods are looking at the microcosmic energy centers of the body and linking them to the macrocosmic. And both methods are based upon the philosophy that everything comes out of nothing. Both go beyond the material, and yet neither denies the material. "Every human being's essential nature is perfect and faultless, but after years of immersion in the world we easily forget our roots and take on a counterfeit nature." Lao Tzu. I cultivate so that my original nature can shine through. I do not think the method of cultivation is nearly as important as the reason for cultivation. The heart can find its way home no matter the path it takes. But the heart has to want to. The heart of stone is content with its false self. It is asleep, fast asleep. The heart of flesh is at least to a degree alive, awake, and will not be content until it is fully awakened from the Red Chamber Dream. The ego, the conditioned sense of self, does not want to wake up. Many are called, but few choose to heed the calling. The Spirit listeth where it willeth. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Nina on 6/20/2009, 6:56 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 96.229.138.X : "Every human being's essential nature : is perfect and faultless, but after years of : immersion in the world we easily forget our : roots and take on a counterfeit : nature." Lao Tzu. : Excuse me for butting in, but can you tell me where Laozi says that, Butch? Thanks.  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by ren ying on 6/21/2009, 3:29 am, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 85.181.29.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Hello Butch : : Do you have anywhere published in details : your way of meditaiton? : : : : ren ying, : : My method of meditation is pretty much the : "Vipassana" or "Insight" : method made famous by the Buddha. I combine : Vipassana with my Hatha Yoga practice. : : At its heart Vipassana is the practice of : mindfulness. It is a practice that is both : pragmatic and spiritual. Clarity of thought : gives way to an openness to the great : mystery of existence. : : But for me insight comes in stages. I claim : no perfection of understanding. I still : catch myself being judgmental at times. But : I also know that being non-judgmental does : not mean not knowing an apple from a pear. : Or a good piece of fruit from a bad. Being : non-judgmental does not mean being stupid. : Quite the contrary. It simply means not : letting conditioned thinking control one's : mind. : : Vipassana with Hatha Yoga is a : "dual" method of cultivation much : like the "Cultivating Stillness" : method of Taoism. Both mind and body are : cultivated. Although the language is : different both methods are about making a : full return to the Emptiness that is empty : even of emptiness, the Great Affirmation, or : in the language of Taoism the full return to : the Wu-Chi, to the eternal Tao. The Void : that is the Source of T'ai-Chi. The axis of : the wheel. Both methods are looking at the : microcosmic energy centers of the body and : linking them to the macrocosmic. And both : methods are based upon the philosophy that : everything comes out of nothing. Both go : beyond the material, and yet neither denies : the material. : : "Every human being's essential nature : is perfect and faultless, but after years of : immersion in the world we easily forget our : roots and take on a counterfeit : nature." Lao Tzu. : : I cultivate so that my original nature can : shine through. I do not think the method of : cultivation is nearly as important as the : reason for cultivation. The heart can find : its way home no matter the path it takes. : But the heart has to want to. The heart of : stone is content with its false self. It is : asleep, fast asleep. The heart of flesh is : at least to a degree alive, awake, and will : not be content until it is fully awakened : from the Red Chamber Dream. : : The ego, the conditioned sense of self, does : not want to wake up. Many are called, but : few choose to heed the calling. The Spirit : listeth where it willeth. : : Butcho : : : Thank you i will have a look at books by S.N. Goenka... any thoughts about the 10 days retreats?  Post a Response

for ren ying Posted by Lian Dao on 6/21/2009, 7:12 am, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 86.152.209.X http://www.interactivebuddha.com The following ( and the above ) may be helpful to you ren ying as an introduction to Insight meditation. Mahasi Sayadaw is in my estimation probably the best teacher and below is a link to his best book. The ten-day retreats are definately the best way to get involved. http://www.aimwell.org/assets/practicalinsightmeditation.pdf http://www.dhamma-dana.de May all beings be free from harm. May all beings be at peace. may all beings be free.  Post a Response

Re: for ren ying Posted by gar on 6/21/2009, 7:25 am, in reply to "for ren ying" 70.100.195.X Greetings Lian Dao, It seems to me: May all beings be free from harm. Harm is always present, yin/yang May all beings be at peace. Peace is relative. may all beings be free. State of non-attachment exists only in non-being. in peace, gar  Post a Response

harm is relative/peace is absolute; cross the abyss Posted by Lian Dao on 6/21/2009, 7:35 am, in reply to "Re: for ren ying" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : : Greetings Lian Dao, : : It seems to me: : : May all beings be free from harm. : : Harm is always present, yin/yang : : May all beings be at peace. : : Peace is relative. : : may all beings be free. : : State of non-attachment exists only in : non-being. : *cuts to scene of Lian Dao manically floundering on a rocky shoreline, unaware that he is only in a couple of inches of sea water.*  Post a Response

another question for Butcho Posted by Steve on 6/21/2009, 9:57 am, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 68.33.168.X What your posts convey to me, Butcho, is your tremendous passion for what you do and believe. Tremendous passion is a gift, in my book. But there's a certain disconnect in your post above. Maybe you can connect the dots for me. First you say "The ego, the conditioned sense of self, does not want to wake up." Then you say "Many are called, but few choose to heed the calling." Question: To believe oneself "called" and among the "few" who heed the call...this is not an exercise and statement of the ego? (Happy Father's Day, btw.) Steve  Post a Response

Re: for ren ying Posted by ren ying on 6/21/2009, 10:30 am, in reply to "for ren ying" 85.181.54.X --Previous Message-- : http://www.interactivebuddha.com : : : The following ( and the above ) may be : helpful to you ren ying as an introduction : to Insight meditation. Mahasi Sayadaw is in : my estimation probably the best teacher and : below is a link to his best book. : : The ten-day retreats are definately the best : way to get involved. : : : : http://www.aimwell.org/assets/practicalinsightmeditation.pdf : : http://www.dhamma-dana.de : : : May all beings be free from harm. : May all beings be at peace. : may all beings be free. -- thank you just i have found this http://themiddleway.net/2007/06/04/free-group-sit-sn-goenka-vipassana-mp3s/ interesting? :  Post a Response

Re: another question for Butcho Posted by Butcho on 6/21/2009, 5:43 pm, in reply to "another question for Butcho" 75.88.46.X --Previous Message-- : : What your posts convey to me, Butcho, is : your tremendous passion for what you do and : believe. Tremendous passion is a gift, in : my book. : : But there's a certain disconnect in your : post above. Maybe you can connect the dots : for me. : : First you say "The ego, the conditioned : sense of self, does not want to wake : up." : : Then you say "Many are called, but few : choose to heed the calling." : : Question: To believe oneself : "called" and among the : "few" who heed the call...this is : not an exercise and statement of the ego? : : (Happy Father's Day, btw.) : : Steve : : Steve, The ego does not want to wake up. But the original self does. Why one original self is able to break through the ego or the conditioned self and another isn't is beyond my pay grade. For whatever reason, most people do not live examined lives. Most people settle for less than they are. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Butcho on 6/21/2009, 5:48 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 75.88.46.X --Previous Message-- : : "Every human being's essential nature : is perfect and faultless, but after years of : immersion in the world we easily forget our : roots and take on a counterfeit : nature." Lao Tzu. : : : Excuse me for butting in, but can you tell : me where Laozi says that, Butch? : : Thanks. : : : Nina, I never mind you butting in. Ok. You got me. I do not know which translator of Lao Tzu put some of his words in exactly this way. But I have come across these words numerous times. I did not just pull them out of my butt. What made me think of them is I just started reading Wayne Dyer's new book "Excuses Begone!" and he uses this supposed statement of Lao Tzu to open his book. I do not know from which of the many different translations of Lao Tzu that Dyer drew from in his research of the Tao a couple of years ago that he found this wording. And I know that ren ying is a stickler for a literal translation so I have left myself open for questions, knowingly. But the fact is, in my opinion, the quote I have used here is consistent with my understanding of the spirit of the Tao Te Ching. It is an argument for cultivation. Nothing less. Perhaps someone else knows from where Wayne Dyer and others have gotten this quote you have questioned.  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Nina on 6/21/2009, 6:11 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 96.229.138.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : "Every human being's essential nature : is perfect and faultless, but after years of : immersion in the world we easily forget our : roots and take on a counterfeit : nature." Lao Tzu. : : : Excuse me for butting in, but can you tell : me where Laozi says that, Butch? : : Thanks. : : : : Nina, : : I never mind you butting in. : : Ok. You got me. I do not know which : translator of Lao Tzu put some of his words : in exactly this way. But I have come across : these words numerous times. I did not just : pull them out of my butt. What made me think : of them is I just started reading Wayne : Dyer's new book "Excuses Begone!" : and he uses this supposed statement of Lao : Tzu to open his book. I do not know from : which of the many different translations of : Lao Tzu that Dyer drew from in his research : of the Tao a couple of years ago that he : found this wording. : : And I know that ren ying is a stickler for a : literal translation so I have left myself : open for questions, knowingly. But the fact : is, in my opinion, the quote I have used : here is consistent with my understanding of : the spirit of the Tao Te Ching. It is an : argument for cultivation. Nothing less. : : Perhaps someone else knows from where Wayne : Dyer and others have gotten this quote you : have questioned. : : Thanks, Butch. I don't think that quote came from a "translator." Maybe from someone who put their own spin on Laozi's words. I did an internet search for it and the only places I found it was on a few people's blogs and as a quote from Dyer's book. I never did think Dyer had any inkling about Dao. "Excuses Begone"? LOL Here are a few other quotes I found attributed to Laozi on a blog, and none of them list a source: "Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage." Lao Tzu "Great Teachers can lead you to the doors of understanding, butit is up to you to enter." --Lao-Tzu "If you look to others for fulfillment, you will never be truly fulfilled." Lao Tzu "Be content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize nothing's lacking, the whole world belongs to you" ~ Lao Tzu "A good travelerhas no fixed plans,and is not intent on arriving."{Lao Tzu} "What the caterpillar calls the end, the rest of the world calls a butterfly." ~Lao Tzu. Funny stuff! :-)  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Butcho on 6/21/2009, 9:17 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 75.88.46.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : "Every human being's essential nature : is perfect and faultless, but after years of : immersion in the world we easily forget our : roots and take on a counterfeit : nature." Lao Tzu. : : : Excuse me for butting in, but can you tell : me where Laozi says that, Butch? : : Thanks. : : : : Nina, : : I never mind you butting in. : : Ok. You got me. I do not know which : translator of Lao Tzu put some of his words : in exactly this way. But I have come across : these words numerous times. I did not just : pull them out of my butt. What made me think : of them is I just started reading Wayne : Dyer's new book "Excuses Begone!" : and he uses this supposed statement of Lao : Tzu to open his book. I do not know from : which of the many different translations of : Lao Tzu that Dyer drew from in his research : of the Tao a couple of years ago that he : found this wording. : : And I know that ren ying is a stickler for a : literal translation so I have left myself : open for questions, knowingly. But the fact : is, in my opinion, the quote I have used : here is consistent with my understanding of : the spirit of the Tao Te Ching. It is an : argument for cultivation. Nothing less. : : Perhaps someone else knows from where Wayne : Dyer and others have gotten this quote you : have questioned. : : : : Thanks, Butch. : : I don't think that quote came from a : "translator." Maybe from someone : who put their own spin on Laozi's words. I : did an internet search for it and the only : places I found it was on a few people's : blogs and as a quote from Dyer's book. I : never did think Dyer had any inkling about : Dao. "Excuses Begone"? LOL : : Here are a few other quotes I found : attributed to Laozi on a blog, and none of : them list a source: : : "Being deeply loved by someone gives : you strength, while loving someone deeply : gives you courage." Lao Tzu : : "Great Teachers can lead you to the : doors of understanding, butit is up to you : to enter." --Lao-Tzu : : "If you look to others for fulfillment, : you will never be truly fulfilled." Lao : Tzu : : "Be content with what you have; rejoice : in the way things are. When you realize : nothing's lacking, the whole world belongs : to you" ~ Lao Tzu : : "A good travelerhas no fixed plans,and : is not intent on arriving."{Lao Tzu} : : "What the caterpillar calls the end, : the rest of the world calls a : butterfly." ~Lao Tzu. : : Funny stuff! :-) : : Nina, On the one hand your point is taken. But on the other hand the quote being discussed does sound to me like something Lao Tzu might have said. Whether he did or not is another matter. I will try to be more careful in the future. I have sent Mr. Dyer an email at healyourlife.com asking him to let me know where he found the quote. If he answers me I will let you know what he has to say. Don't be to hard on him. He holds the Tao Te Ching in the highest regard. He considers Lao Tzu one of the great spiritual masters of all time. And his new book, "Excuses Begone!" I am finding most helpful. It really is amazing how many different excuses we, I, make for my ways of thinking, let alone for my actions. And the more aware of them I become the less of a hold I am finding they have on me. Excuses Begone! If there is a Devil, maybe it is simply our excuses. The Devil made me do it. Get thee behind me Satan. Butcho  Post a Response

Excuses Posted by gar on 6/22/2009, 4:25 am, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 70.100.195.X Greetings Butcho, Ah, excuses, justifications. It seems to me that mind seeks logic to function in a organized pattern. And a part of the organization is relying on justification. Be it real, conditioned, or illusionary. Whatever works. So, if you are to believe that to change self you must challenge your justifications, then excuses turn into a road map into self. Part of my self appointed work on gar is to challenge the mental workings of self even harder that i challenge others. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Nina on 6/22/2009, 7:06 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 96.229.138.X : Nina, : : On the one hand your point is taken. But on : the other hand the quote being discussed : does sound to me like something Lao Tzu : might have said. Whether he did or not is : another matter. I will try to be more : careful in the future. : : I have sent Mr. Dyer an email at : healyourlife.com asking him to let me know : where he found the quote. If he answers me I : will let you know what he has to say. : : Don't be to hard on him. He holds the Tao Te : Ching in the highest regard. He considers : Lao Tzu one of the great spiritual masters : of all time. And his new book, "Excuses : Begone!" I am finding most helpful. It : really is amazing how many different excuses : we, I, make for my ways of thinking, let : alone for my actions. And the more aware of : them I become the less of a hold I am : finding they have on me. Excuses Begone! : : If there is a Devil, maybe it is simply our : excuses. The Devil made me do it. Get thee : behind me Satan. : : Butcho : Cool, Butch. I have the feeling that if he does respond, he'll say he doesn't know who's the author of the quote. I had that happen once when I wrote a "Daoist" writer and asked about a Laozi quote he cited. I don't think they care if it's accurate or not. It's obvious Dyer never explored any of the Chinese versions - even though he claims to love the DDJ so much. Too busy writing books and giving lectures? Does he say in his book which English translation he relies on for his love of Laozi? I don't have a problem with self-help books. Some of them have helped me a lot over the years. One that comes to mind is "Pulling Your Own Strings." What happens when you get rid of making excuses?  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Butcho on 6/23/2009, 9:22 am, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 75.88.47.X --Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : On the one hand your point is taken. But on : the other hand the quote being discussed : does sound to me like something Lao Tzu : might have said. Whether he did or not is : another matter. I will try to be more : careful in the future. : : I have sent Mr. Dyer an email at : healyourlife.com asking him to let me know : where he found the quote. If he answers me I : will let you know what he has to say. : : Don't be to hard on him. He holds the Tao Te : Ching in the highest regard. He considers : Lao Tzu one of the great spiritual masters : of all time. And his new book, "Excuses : Begone!" I am finding most helpful. It : really is amazing how many different excuses : we, I, make for my ways of thinking, let : alone for my actions. And the more aware of : them I become the less of a hold I am : finding they have on me. Excuses Begone! : : If there is a Devil, maybe it is simply our : excuses. The Devil made me do it. Get thee : behind me Satan. : : Butcho : : : Cool, Butch. I have the feeling that if he : does respond, he'll say he doesn't know : who's the author of the quote. I had that : happen once when I wrote a : "Daoist" writer and asked about a : Laozi quote he cited. I don't think they : care if it's accurate or not. It's obvious : Dyer never explored any of the Chinese : versions - even though he claims to love the : DDJ so much. Too busy writing books and : giving lectures? Does he say in his book : which English translation he relies on for : his love of Laozi? : : I don't have a problem with self-help books. : Some of them have helped me a lot over the : years. One that comes to mind is : "Pulling Your Own Strings." : : What happens when you get rid of making : excuses? : : : Nina, Liberation!? I think that the true man or woman of the Tao has quit making excuses. At least in the purist or idealistic sense. I don't know that one ever completely quits making excuses. But neither do I think that the lack of perfection in understanding is a legitimate excuse for not becoming more aware of the excuse making process in one's thought life. Dualistic thinking is a backseat driver. I have pulled my copy of Brian Walker's translation of Lao Tzu's "Hua Hu Ching" off my shelf thinking I might find the quote you have questioned in it. I'll let you know if I find it. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Nina on 6/23/2009, 8:27 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 96.229.138.X : Liberation!? : : I think that the true man or woman of the : Tao has quit making excuses. At least in the : purist or idealistic sense. I don't know : that one ever completely quits making : excuses. But neither do I think that the : lack of perfection in understanding is a : legitimate excuse for not becoming more : aware of the excuse making process in one's : thought life. : : Dualistic thinking is a backseat driver. : : I have pulled my copy of Brian Walker's : translation of Lao Tzu's "Hua Hu : Ching" off my shelf thinking I might : find the quote you have questioned in it. : I'll let you know if I find it. : : Butcho : Brian Walker didn't translate the Hua Hu Ching. He used Master Ni's English translation to come up with his own interpretation of it. As far as I've been able to find out....... Master Ni is the only one who claims the text of the Hua Hu Ching was written by Laozi. We don't even know if there was a Hua Hu Ching written when Laozi was alive, or if it's a figment of Ni's creativity. It is a good book though..... whoever wrote it. Here's a question for ya..... What prompts you (Butcho) to make excuses for anything you do or don't do?  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Butcho on 6/24/2009, 9:12 am, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 75.88.41.X --Previous Message-- : : Liberation!? : : I think that the true man or woman of the : Tao has quit making excuses. At least in the : purist or idealistic sense. I don't know : that one ever completely quits making : excuses. But neither do I think that the : lack of perfection in understanding is a : legitimate excuse for not becoming more : aware of the excuse making process in one's : thought life. : : Dualistic thinking is a backseat driver. : : I have pulled my copy of Brian Walker's : translation of Lao Tzu's "Hua Hu : Ching" off my shelf thinking I might : find the quote you have questioned in it. : I'll let you know if I find it. : : Butcho : : : Brian Walker didn't translate the Hua Hu : Ching. He used Master Ni's English : translation to come up with his own : interpretation of it. As far as I've been : able to find out....... Master Ni is the : only one who claims the text of the Hua Hu : Ching was written by Laozi. We don't even : know if there was a Hua Hu Ching written : when Laozi was alive, or if it's a figment : of Ni's creativity. It is a good book : though..... whoever wrote it. : : Here's a question for ya..... : What prompts you (Butcho) to make excuses : for anything you do or don't do? : : : Nina, To your question. Probably some form of insecurity I have not realized or dealt with. As far as the Hua Hu Ching, it is an oral tradition that dates back to the time of Lao Tzu. As far as legitimacy, the proof is in the pudding. We don't even know absolutely if there was a Lao Tzu or not. A Laozi or not. A Lao Dan or not. Such things are obscure. For me the important thing is do the words resonate with my bones or not. Whether they are the words of Lao Tzu, or Jesus, or the Buddha, or Lian Dao---did I just say that?, can I say that?. Am I going to be banned now or never. Please don't misunderstand me. I appreciate the work you and ren ying and others do in trying to be as accurate as you know how where such things as translation and authorship are concerned. But I am simply not the scholarly type. I dropped out of High School from boredom with such things. To each his or her own in such matters as style of life. I am an autodidact, plain and simple. I follow "my" nose. Although I have been known to walk down a crowded street following the gyrations of a double-walk from time to time. There was this redhead recently... Mama. Bad Butcho, Bad Butcho,... I hope josef isn't watching from the cheap seats. Pun intended. Hey jo! Part of enlightenment is to lighten up. Except of course where the bottom line is concerned. Buttcho  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Lian Dao on 6/24/2009, 4:01 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Liberation!? : : I think that the true man or woman of the : Tao has quit making excuses. At least in the : purist or idealistic sense. I don't know : that one ever completely quits making : excuses. But neither do I think that the : lack of perfection in understanding is a : legitimate excuse for not becoming more : aware of the excuse making process in one's : thought life. : : Dualistic thinking is a backseat driver. : : I have pulled my copy of Brian Walker's : translation of Lao Tzu's "Hua Hu : Ching" off my shelf thinking I might : find the quote you have questioned in it. : I'll let you know if I find it. : : Butcho : : : Brian Walker didn't translate the Hua Hu : Ching. He used Master Ni's English : translation to come up with his own : interpretation of it. As far as I've been : able to find out....... Master Ni is the : only one who claims the text of the Hua Hu : Ching was written by Laozi. We don't even : know if there was a Hua Hu Ching written : when Laozi was alive, or if it's a figment : of Ni's creativity. It is a good book : though..... whoever wrote it. : : Here's a question for ya..... : What prompts you (Butcho) to make excuses : for anything you do or don't do? : : : : Nina, : : To your question. Probably some form of : insecurity I have not realized or dealt : with. : : As far as the Hua Hu Ching, it is an oral : tradition that dates back to the time of Lao : Tzu. As far as legitimacy, the proof is in : the pudding. : : We don't even know absolutely if there was a : Lao Tzu or not. A Laozi or not. A Lao Dan or : not. Such things are obscure. For me the : important thing is do the words resonate : with my bones or not. Whether they are the : words of Lao Tzu, or Jesus, or the Buddha, : or Lian Dao---did I just say that?, can I : say that?. Am I going to be banned now or : never. : : Please don't misunderstand me. I appreciate : the work you and ren ying and others do in : trying to be as accurate as you know how : where such things as translation and : authorship are concerned. But I am simply : not the scholarly type. I dropped out of : High School from boredom with such things. : To each his or her own in such matters as : style of life. I am an autodidact, plain and : simple. I follow "my" nose. : Although I have been known to walk down a : crowded street following the gyrations of a : double-walk from time to time. There was : this redhead recently... Mama. : : Bad Butcho, Bad Butcho,... I hope josef : isn't watching from the cheap seats. Pun : intended. Hey jo! Part of enlightenment is : to lighten up. Except of course where the : bottom line is concerned. : My dearest Butch, The Hua Hu Ching is the sorest piece of Taoist propaganda ever inflicted upon the world of dust. It's crude and rudimentary attempts to pass off Lao Tzu as the 'teacher' of Sakyamuni Buddha, the western barbarian 'Prince' in the story, has inspired Taoist extermists for over a thousand years. It's naive attempt to mimic a Buddhist sutra fails on more than the scholastic level, and probably for this reason Ni's group is one of the very few to circulate it. Ni, it should also be noted, is widely shunned by 'orthodox' Taoists. But hey,if it works for you..........  Post a Response

Re: question to Lian Dao. Posted by Butcho on 6/24/2009, 9:42 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 71.30.136.X : : : : My dearest Butch, : : The Hua Hu Ching is the sorest piece of : Taoist propaganda ever inflicted upon the : world of dust. : : It's crude and rudimentary attempts to pass : off Lao Tzu as the 'teacher' of Sakyamuni : Buddha, the western barbarian 'Prince' in : the story, has inspired Taoist extermists : for over a thousand years. It's naive : attempt to mimic a Buddhist sutra fails on : more than the scholastic level, and probably : for this reason Ni's group is one of the : very few to circulate it. : : Ni, it should also be noted, is widely : shunned by 'orthodox' Taoists. : : But hey,if it works for you.......... : Lian Dao, Orthodox Taoists. Is that anything like an Orthodox Jew? Or an Orthodox Christian? Or an Orthodontist? I see nothing extremist in the Hua Hu Ching. Can you share with me something from it that you consider extreme? Butcho  Post a Response

Re: question to Lian Dao. Posted by Lian Dao on 6/25/2009, 12:15 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Lian Dao." 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : : : My dearest Butch, : : The Hua Hu Ching is the sorest piece of : Taoist propaganda ever inflicted upon the : world of dust. : : It's crude and rudimentary attempts to pass : off Lao Tzu as the 'teacher' of Sakyamuni : Buddha, the western barbarian 'Prince' in : the story, has inspired Taoist extermists : for over a thousand years. It's naive : attempt to mimic a Buddhist sutra fails on : more than the scholastic level, and probably : for this reason Ni's group is one of the : very few to circulate it. : : Ni, it should also be noted, is widely : shunned by 'orthodox' Taoists. : : But hey,if it works for you.......... : : : Lian Dao, : : Orthodox Taoists. Is that anything like an : Orthodox Jew? Or an Orthodox Christian? Or : an Orthodontist? : : I see nothing extremist in the Hua Hu Ching. : Can you share with me something from it that : you consider extreme? : i do apologise Butch for my slighting your book. i am not a fan of Hua Ching Ni or his business mission. i haven't seen the Walker rendition but i am aware that it was 'based' on Ni's. i am also aware that it forms one of the 'trinity' of Ni's holiest books, the covers of which form an 'altar' to the formost Taoist gods. The fourth, his 'Spiritual Workbook' depicts Ni on the cover as an incarnation of the Immortal, Lu Dong Pin. The inside isn't up to much either. There are, allegedly, quite a few versions of the 'Classic of the Conversion of the Western Barbarians', to use its English title, all of which are excluded from the traditional (and othodox') Taoist liturgial 'canon' as much as for its promotion of sectarianism (ie anti-buddhism) as for the fact that it was compiled sometime in the 4th century C.E. ( when it first appears) in an attempt to pass off the pseudo-Buddhistic teachings in the book as pure Lao Tzu taught Taoism. More than likely it emerged as an effort to fend off 'foreign' Buddhist thought. As books go, it has a somewhat ambigious history.  Post a Response

Re: question to Butch Posted by Nina on 6/25/2009, 4:59 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 96.229.138.X : Nina, : : To your question. Probably some form of : insecurity I have not realized or dealt : with. : : As far as the Hua Hu Ching, it is an oral : tradition that dates back to the time of Lao : Tzu. As far as legitimacy, the proof is in : the pudding. : : We don't even know absolutely if there was a : Lao Tzu or not. A Laozi or not. A Lao Dan or : not. Such things are obscure. For me the : important thing is do the words resonate : with my bones or not. Whether they are the : words of Lao Tzu, or Jesus, or the Buddha, : or Lian Dao---did I just say that?, can I : say that?. Am I going to be banned now or : never. : : Please don't misunderstand me. I appreciate : the work you and ren ying and others do in : trying to be as accurate as you know how : where such things as translation and : authorship are concerned. But I am simply : not the scholarly type. I dropped out of : High School from boredom with such things. : To each his or her own in such matters as : style of life. I am an autodidact, plain and : simple. I follow "my" nose. : Although I have been known to walk down a : crowded street following the gyrations of a : double-walk from time to time. There was : this redhead recently... Mama. : : Bad Butcho, Bad Butcho,... I hope josef : isn't watching from the cheap seats. Pun : intended. Hey jo! Part of enlightenment is : to lighten up. Except of course where the : bottom line is concerned. : : Buttcho : It sounds like you're making excuses for not researching the books you revere. Then passing on information about them from one source you happened to have read. I hated high school too, Butch. Hated the fact that they tried to make me think the way they did. But....... if there's something I'm interested in, I'll try to find all the info on it available. That's why I spent 3 years researching the DDJ - both the English and Chinese versions. So, maybe I have a little animosity towards people like Dyer who are too busy writing books and giving seminars (claiming to actually know something about the ancient books they refer to) in order to make more $$$. Makes me wonder....... maybe a reason you make excuses is to appear to know more than you do? As you said, that might stem from insecurity, huh? I don't mean to pick on you, Butcho. When I ask for references and sources it's because there might be something I haven't come across yet. Some of us have spent lots of time researching these texts, and we just want to try see if opinions are based on anything solid. Understand? What speaks to your heart is fine with me.  Post a Response

Re: question to Lian Dao. Posted by Nina on 6/25/2009, 5:02 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Lian Dao." 96.229.138.X : : i do apologise Butch for my slighting your : book. i am not a fan of Hua Ching Ni or his : business mission. i haven't seen the Walker : rendition but i am aware that it was 'based' : on Ni's. i am also aware that it forms one : of the 'trinity' of Ni's holiest books, the : covers of which form an 'altar' to the : formost Taoist gods. The fourth, his : 'Spiritual Workbook' depicts Ni on the cover : as an incarnation of the Immortal, Lu Dong : Pin. The inside isn't up to much either. : : There are, allegedly, quite a few versions : of the 'Classic of the Conversion of the : Western Barbarians', to use its English : title, all of which are excluded from the : traditional (and othodox') Taoist liturgial : 'canon' as much as for its promotion of : sectarianism (ie anti-buddhism) as for the : fact that it was compiled sometime in the : 4th century C.E. ( when it first appears) in : an attempt to pass off the pseudo-Buddhistic : teachings in the book as pure Lao Tzu taught : Taoism. More than likely it emerged as an : effort to fend off 'foreign' Buddhist : thought. : : As books go, it has a somewhat ambigious : history. : : Thank you, Lian Dao, for the accurate info.  Post a Response

I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Butcho on 6/25/2009, 7:14 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Butch" 75.88.45.X --Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : To your question. Probably some form of : insecurity I have not realized or dealt : with. : : As far as the Hua Hu Ching, it is an oral : tradition that dates back to the time of Lao : Tzu. As far as legitimacy, the proof is in : the pudding. : : We don't even know absolutely if there was a : Lao Tzu or not. A Laozi or not. A Lao Dan or : not. Such things are obscure. For me the : important thing is do the words resonate : with my bones or not. Whether they are the : words of Lao Tzu, or Jesus, or the Buddha, : or Lian Dao---did I just say that?, can I : say that?. Am I going to be banned now or : never. : : Please don't misunderstand me. I appreciate : the work you and ren ying and others do in : trying to be as accurate as you know how : where such things as translation and : authorship are concerned. But I am simply : not the scholarly type. I dropped out of : High School from boredom with such things. : To each his or her own in such matters as : style of life. I am an autodidact, plain and : simple. I follow "my" nose. : Although I have been known to walk down a : crowded street following the gyrations of a : double-walk from time to time. There was : this redhead recently... Mama. : : Bad Butcho, Bad Butcho,... I hope josef : isn't watching from the cheap seats. Pun : intended. Hey jo! Part of enlightenment is : to lighten up. Except of course where the : bottom line is concerned. : : Buttcho : : It sounds like you're making excuses for : not researching the books you revere. Then : passing on information about them from one : source you happened to have read. : : I hated high school too, Butch. Hated the : fact that they tried to make me think the : way they did. But....... if there's : something I'm interested in, I'll try to : find all the info on it available. That's : why I spent 3 years researching the DDJ - : both the English and Chinese versions. So, : maybe I have a little animosity towards : people like Dyer who are too busy writing : books and giving seminars (claiming to : actually know something about the ancient : books they refer to) in order to make more : $$$. : : Makes me wonder....... maybe a reason you : make excuses is to appear to know more than : you do? As you said, that might stem from : insecurity, huh? : : I don't mean to pick on you, Butcho. When I : ask for references and sources it's because : there might be something I haven't come : across yet. Some of us have spent lots of : time researching these texts, and we just : want to try see if opinions are based on : anything solid. Understand? : : What speaks to your heart is fine with me. : : Nina & Lian Dao, I am not about to pretend, nor do I want to be, an apologist for the Hua Hu Ching. The two of you apparently have more of a history with the history of its history than I do. History, herstory, he said, she said. I have not attacked either of you in this matter. But as usual, I am attacked. Some things never change. Turf wars. The only challenge I have put forth is give me an example of extremism in the "Hua Hu Ching". So far no one has shared anything from Brian Walker's version that they have found to be extreme. Instead he is attacked and others, including myself as being a fake. Someone that passes themselves off as something they are not. As claiming knowledge I do not have. To borrow a comment from Jack Benny, "WELL!" I am just a man. Here is my rule of thumb where mentors, masters, messiahs, and such are concerned. I am not perfect in my understanding and actions and so feel it would be hypocritical of me to expect perfection in others. I am not looking for a middleman with connections I do not have. And I have a jaundiced eye when someone claims to be perfect, in anything. Thus my conversations with our friend, Perfect Steve. "If you wish to embody the Tao, stop chattering and start practicing." Hua Hu Ching. Yeah, pretty extremist stuff. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Nina on 6/25/2009, 8:02 pm, in reply to "I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 96.229.138.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : To your question. Probably some form of : insecurity I have not realized or dealt : with. : : As far as the Hua Hu Ching, it is an oral : tradition that dates back to the time of Lao : Tzu. As far as legitimacy, the proof is in : the pudding. : : We don't even know absolutely if there was a : Lao Tzu or not. A Laozi or not. A Lao Dan or : not. Such things are obscure. For me the : important thing is do the words resonate : with my bones or not. Whether they are the : words of Lao Tzu, or Jesus, or the Buddha, : or Lian Dao---did I just say that?, can I : say that?. Am I going to be banned now or : never. : : Please don't misunderstand me. I appreciate : the work you and ren ying and others do in : trying to be as accurate as you know how : where such things as translation and : authorship are concerned. But I am simply : not the scholarly type. I dropped out of : High School from boredom with such things. : To each his or her own in such matters as : style of life. I am an autodidact, plain and : simple. I follow "my" nose. : Although I have been known to walk down a : crowded street following the gyrations of a : double-walk from time to time. There was : this redhead recently... Mama. : : Bad Butcho, Bad Butcho,... I hope josef : isn't watching from the cheap seats. Pun : intended. Hey jo! Part of enlightenment is : to lighten up. Except of course where the : bottom line is concerned. : : Buttcho : : It sounds like you're making excuses for : not researching the books you revere. Then : passing on information about them from one : source you happened to have read. : : I hated high school too, Butch. Hated the : fact that they tried to make me think the : way they did. But....... if there's : something I'm interested in, I'll try to : find all the info on it available. That's : why I spent 3 years researching the DDJ - : both the English and Chinese versions. So, : maybe I have a little animosity towards : people like Dyer who are too busy writing : books and giving seminars (claiming to : actually know something about the ancient : books they refer to) in order to make more : $$$. : : Makes me wonder....... maybe a reason you : make excuses is to appear to know more than : you do? As you said, that might stem from : insecurity, huh? : : I don't mean to pick on you, Butcho. When I : ask for references and sources it's because : there might be something I haven't come : across yet. Some of us have spent lots of : time researching these texts, and we just : want to try see if opinions are based on : anything solid. Understand? : : What speaks to your heart is fine with me. : : : Nina & Lian Dao, : : I am not about to pretend, nor do I want to : be, an apologist for the Hua Hu Ching. The : two of you apparently have more of a history : with the history of its history than I do. : History, herstory, he said, she said. : : I have not attacked either of you in this : matter. But as usual, I am attacked. Some : things never change. Turf wars. : : The only challenge I have put forth is give : me an example of extremism in the "Hua : Hu Ching". So far no one has shared : anything from Brian Walker's version that : they have found to be extreme. Instead he is : attacked and others, including myself as : being a fake. Someone that passes themselves : off as something they are not. As claiming : knowledge I do not have. To borrow a comment : from Jack Benny, "WELL!" : : I am just a man. : : Here is my rule of thumb where mentors, : masters, messiahs, and such are concerned. I : am not perfect in my understanding and : actions and so feel it would be hypocritical : of me to expect perfection in others. I am : not looking for a middleman with connections : I do not have. And I have a jaundiced eye : when someone claims to be perfect, in : anything. Thus my conversations with our : friend, Perfect Steve. : : "If you wish to embody the Tao, stop : chattering and start practicing." Hua : Hu Ching. : : Yeah, pretty extremist stuff. : : Butcho : No one's attacking you, Butch. Saying your sources might be wrong is an attack? I don't have Walker's Hua Hu Ching, so I can't look through it for an example of extremism. Why would I want to read someone's interpretation of someone else's interpretation? If you like what Walker is setting forth, why not just say so? It doesn't have to be the words of Laozi, does it, for you to have it speak to your heart? I'm sorry if we've gotten you in a snit about this. -Nina  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Butcho on 6/25/2009, 9:39 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 75.88.45.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : To your question. Probably some form of : insecurity I have not realized or dealt : with. : : As far as the Hua Hu Ching, it is an oral : tradition that dates back to the time of Lao : Tzu. As far as legitimacy, the proof is in : the pudding. : : We don't even know absolutely if there was a : Lao Tzu or not. A Laozi or not. A Lao Dan or : not. Such things are obscure. For me the : important thing is do the words resonate : with my bones or not. Whether they are the : words of Lao Tzu, or Jesus, or the Buddha, : or Lian Dao---did I just say that?, can I : say that?. Am I going to be banned now or : never. : : Please don't misunderstand me. I appreciate : the work you and ren ying and others do in : trying to be as accurate as you know how : where such things as translation and : authorship are concerned. But I am simply : not the scholarly type. I dropped out of : High School from boredom with such things. : To each his or her own in such matters as : style of life. I am an autodidact, plain and : simple. I follow "my" nose. : Although I have been known to walk down a : crowded street following the gyrations of a : double-walk from time to time. There was : this redhead recently... Mama. : : Bad Butcho, Bad Butcho,... I hope josef : isn't watching from the cheap seats. Pun : intended. Hey jo! Part of enlightenment is : to lighten up. Except of course where the : bottom line is concerned. : : Buttcho : : It sounds like you're making excuses for : not researching the books you revere. Then : passing on information about them from one : source you happened to have read. : : I hated high school too, Butch. Hated the : fact that they tried to make me think the : way they did. But....... if there's : something I'm interested in, I'll try to : find all the info on it available. That's : why I spent 3 years researching the DDJ - : both the English and Chinese versions. So, : maybe I have a little animosity towards : people like Dyer who are too busy writing : books and giving seminars (claiming to : actually know something about the ancient : books they refer to) in order to make more : $$$. : : Makes me wonder....... maybe a reason you : make excuses is to appear to know more than : you do? As you said, that might stem from : insecurity, huh? : : I don't mean to pick on you, Butcho. When I : ask for references and sources it's because : there might be something I haven't come : across yet. Some of us have spent lots of : time researching these texts, and we just : want to try see if opinions are based on : anything solid. Understand? : : What speaks to your heart is fine with me. : : : Nina & Lian Dao, : : I am not about to pretend, nor do I want to : be, an apologist for the Hua Hu Ching. The : two of you apparently have more of a history : with the history of its history than I do. : History, herstory, he said, she said. : : I have not attacked either of you in this : matter. But as usual, I am attacked. Some : things never change. Turf wars. : : The only challenge I have put forth is give : me an example of extremism in the "Hua : Hu Ching". So far no one has shared : anything from Brian Walker's version that : they have found to be extreme. Instead he is : attacked and others, including myself as : being a fake. Someone that passes themselves : off as something they are not. As claiming : knowledge I do not have. To borrow a comment : from Jack Benny, "WELL!" : : I am just a man. : : Here is my rule of thumb where mentors, : masters, messiahs, and such are concerned. I : am not perfect in my understanding and : actions and so feel it would be hypocritical : of me to expect perfection in others. I am : not looking for a middleman with connections : I do not have. And I have a jaundiced eye : when someone claims to be perfect, in : anything. Thus my conversations with our : friend, Perfect Steve. : : "If you wish to embody the Tao, stop : chattering and start practicing." Hua : Hu Ching. : : Yeah, pretty extremist stuff. : : Butcho : : : No one's attacking you, Butch. Saying your : sources might be wrong is an attack? : : I don't have Walker's Hua Hu Ching, so I : can't look through it for an example of : extremism. Why would I want to read : someone's interpretation of someone else's : interpretation? : : If you like what Walker is setting forth, : why not just say so? It doesn't have to be : the words of Laozi, does it, for you to have : it speak to your heart? : : I'm sorry if we've gotten you in a snit : about this. : : -Nina : Nina, So you don't have a copy. Now who is making excuses? I am not in a snit. I said "I am NOT in a snit!". I am in a sNOT. Allergies. Where words are concerned it is all interpretation silly. There is nothing new under the sun. Same as it ever was. All words are interpretive. Symbols pointing at something other than themselves. Secondhand news. To be a purist is to be an extremist. Balance is called for. Dynamic balance for existence is organic. Alive. The music instinct is strong with this one. So go, Dance. Dance to the Music and let go of words so they no longer have such a hold on you. Modern society overrates knowledge. Knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing. Wisdom is much more valuable than knowledge to the man or woman of the Tao. How so? Is so? How not so? Not so so? "When a society misuses partial intelligence and ignores holistic wisdom, its people forget the benefits of a plain and natural life." Hua Hu Ching. "Knowledge wandered north to the far side of the primordial waters and climbed the hills of the absconded rise. There he happened to meet NonAction NoWords..." Chuang Tzu. #22. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Steve on 6/26/2009, 9:06 am, in reply to "I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 68.33.168.X : And I have a jaundiced eye when someone claims : to be perfect, in anything. Thus my : conversations with our friend, Perfect Steve. How did I get dragged into this thicket!?! I don't even know how to operate my VCR, and I'm being accused of considering myself "perfect"? ------------------------------ : "If you wish to embody the Tao, stop : chattering and start practicing." Hua : Hu Ching. : : Yeah, pretty extremist stuff. Aside from his credentials or the accuracy of the translation, if Hua Hu Ching said that, he's an extremist alright. I'm going to bind him to your other masters, Butcho, and drown him in the Chesapeake too.  Post a Response

Re: question to Lian Dao. Posted by Lian Dao on 6/26/2009, 12:16 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Lian Dao." 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : : i do apologise Butch for my slighting your : book. i am not a fan of Hua Ching Ni or his : business mission. i haven't seen the Walker : rendition but i am aware that it was 'based' : on Ni's. i am also aware that it forms one : of the 'trinity' of Ni's holiest books, the : covers of which form an 'altar' to the : formost Taoist gods. The fourth, his : 'Spiritual Workbook' depicts Ni on the cover : as an incarnation of the Immortal, Lu Dong : Pin. The inside isn't up to much either. : : There are, allegedly, quite a few versions : of the 'Classic of the Conversion of the : Western Barbarians', to use its English : title, all of which are excluded from the : traditional (and othodox') Taoist liturgial : 'canon' as much as for its promotion of : sectarianism (ie anti-buddhism) as for the : fact that it was compiled sometime in the : 4th century C.E. ( when it first appears) in : an attempt to pass off the pseudo-Buddhistic : teachings in the book as pure Lao Tzu taught : Taoism. More than likely it emerged as an : effort to fend off 'foreign' Buddhist : thought. : : As books go, it has a somewhat ambigious : history. : : : : Thank you, Lian Dao, for the accurate info. : : Ay up, nah wurries. i seem to recall that you had the dubious pleasure of meeting with the 'master' himself in his ivory tower, Severstar Communications?  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Lian Dao on 6/26/2009, 12:25 pm, in reply to "I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : To your question. Probably some form of : insecurity I have not realized or dealt : with. : : As far as the Hua Hu Ching, it is an oral : tradition that dates back to the time of Lao : Tzu. As far as legitimacy, the proof is in : the pudding. : : We don't even know absolutely if there was a : Lao Tzu or not. A Laozi or not. A Lao Dan or : not. Such things are obscure. For me the : important thing is do the words resonate : with my bones or not. Whether they are the : words of Lao Tzu, or Jesus, or the Buddha, : or Lian Dao---did I just say that?, can I : say that?. Am I going to be banned now or : never. : : Please don't misunderstand me. I appreciate : the work you and ren ying and others do in : trying to be as accurate as you know how : where such things as translation and : authorship are concerned. But I am simply : not the scholarly type. I dropped out of : High School from boredom with such things. : To each his or her own in such matters as : style of life. I am an autodidact, plain and : simple. I follow "my" nose. : Although I have been known to walk down a : crowded street following the gyrations of a : double-walk from time to time. There was : this redhead recently... Mama. : : Bad Butcho, Bad Butcho,... I hope josef : isn't watching from the cheap seats. Pun : intended. Hey jo! Part of enlightenment is : to lighten up. Except of course where the : bottom line is concerned. : : Buttcho : : It sounds like you're making excuses for : not researching the books you revere. Then : passing on information about them from one : source you happened to have read. : : I hated high school too, Butch. Hated the : fact that they tried to make me think the : way they did. But....... if there's : something I'm interested in, I'll try to : find all the info on it available. That's : why I spent 3 years researching the DDJ - : both the English and Chinese versions. So, : maybe I have a little animosity towards : people like Dyer who are too busy writing : books and giving seminars (claiming to : actually know something about the ancient : books they refer to) in order to make more : $$$. : : Makes me wonder....... maybe a reason you : make excuses is to appear to know more than : you do? As you said, that might stem from : insecurity, huh? : : I don't mean to pick on you, Butcho. When I : ask for references and sources it's because : there might be something I haven't come : across yet. Some of us have spent lots of : time researching these texts, and we just : want to try see if opinions are based on : anything solid. Understand? : : What speaks to your heart is fine with me. : : : Nina & Lian Dao, : : I am not about to pretend, nor do I want to : be, an apologist for the Hua Hu Ching. The : two of you apparently have more of a history : with the history of its history than I do. : History, herstory, he said, she said. : : I have not attacked either of you in this : matter. But as usual, I am attacked. Some : things never change. Turf wars. : : The only challenge I have put forth is give : me an example of extremism in the "Hua : Hu Ching". So far no one has shared : anything from Brian Walker's version that : they have found to be extreme. Instead he is : attacked and others, including myself as : being a fake. Someone that passes themselves : off as something they are not. As claiming : knowledge I do not have. To borrow a comment : from Jack Benny, "WELL!" : : I am just a man. : : Here is my rule of thumb where mentors, : masters, messiahs, and such are concerned. I : am not perfect in my understanding and : actions and so feel it would be hypocritical : of me to expect perfection in others. I am : not looking for a middleman with connections : I do not have. And I have a jaundiced eye : when someone claims to be perfect, in : anything. Thus my conversations with our : friend, Perfect Steve. : : "If you wish to embody the Tao, stop : chattering and start practicing." Hua : Hu Ching. : : Yeah, pretty extremist stuff. : : Butch, my dear friend, please stop taking everything personally. The Hua Hu Ching has inspired acts of sectarian extremism, whether or not it would inspire your good self to commit such acts is a questionable matter, but historically it has. That 'mainstream' ( is that a better word?) Taoist groups avoid it really should be an indication of sorts as to the ambiguity of the text. i'm just saying, that's all.  Post a Response

Re: question to Lian Dao. Posted by Nina on 6/26/2009, 7:09 pm, in reply to "Re: question to Lian Dao." 96.229.138.X : Ay up, nah wurries. : : i seem to recall that you had the dubious : pleasure of meeting with the 'master' : himself in his ivory tower, Severstar : Communications? : Yes....... It was at Yo San University - the place where Ni and his sons teach TCM - a few miles from my house. I've talked about this before, but for those of you who might not have read it...... A funny little guy Master Ni was. He walked into the lecture wearing a child's baseball cap. Those "too too spirichool" types didn't crack a smile - until Ni told them it was okay to laugh. Weird bunch. I've got to hand it to Master Ni for telling them they were taking themselves way too seriously. When one guy - decked out in his "natural attire" sitting in lotus posture - asked Ni what else he could do to further his "enlightenment" other than meditating for hours on end, Ni told him to stop masturbating so much. I wasn't impressed by Master Ni. He seemed not so different from other 80+ people I've met. The altar behind him was a bit strange, and I got the impression he wanted to be enshrined up there too. Until he made a bee-line after the lecture for the prettiest youngest girl in the room, holding her hand and telling her she was special. Well, there's gotta be some perks for being considered a "Master", huh? Here's a little bit for Butch........ I went to a lecture there given by one of Master Ni's sons. He said his daughters had destroyed one of the very expensive window shades his wife had just put up. As a punishment, he asked them if they'd rather get a spanking or be sent to their room for an hour. They chose the spanking. Someone who promotes meditation would use solitude as a punishment? But....... Meeting Alan Watts........ Delightful!  Post a Response

Out in left field Posted by Nina on 6/26/2009, 7:24 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 96.229.138.X : Nina, : : So you don't have a copy. Now who is making : excuses? : : I am not in a snit. I said "I am NOT in : a snit!". I am in a sNOT. Allergies. : : Where words are concerned it is all : interpretation silly. There is nothing new : under the sun. Same as it ever was. All : words are interpretive. Symbols pointing at : something other than themselves. Secondhand : news. : : To be a purist is to be an extremist. : Balance is called for. Dynamic balance for : existence is organic. Alive. The music : instinct is strong with this one. So go, : Dance. Dance to the Music and let go of : words so they no longer have such a hold on : you. : : Modern society overrates knowledge. : Knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing. : Wisdom is much more valuable than knowledge : to the man or woman of the Tao. How so? Is : so? How not so? Not so so? : : "When a society misuses partial : intelligence and ignores holistic wisdom, : its people forget the benefits of a plain : and natural life." Hua Hu Ching. : : "Knowledge wandered north to the far : side of the primordial waters and climbed : the hills of the absconded rise. There he : happened to meet NonAction NoWords..." : Chuang Tzu. #22. : : Butcho : I'm not making excuses, Butch. I read Walker's Hua Hu Ching, and I think it's a crock! Why would I have a copy of it? Words are delightful tools to express what we're thinking, feeling, experiencing. I say "we" because I enjoy writing words and listening to the words of others. I think most people (even you) enjoy using them too? You do use them a lot here. WTF is that from Walker's HHC....... "holistic wisdom"? "A plain natural life"? That's Daoist Religion to the max. If you really believe that, why don't you go live in a tent, pump your own water and weave your own cloth? And you might as well throw away your computer 'cause there'll be no electricity. That's not extremist? Suggesting giving up all the wonderful things our intelligence (and that of others) has provided to bring us more joy and happiness? You might look to Zhuangzi with a more tongue-in-cheek attitude. Or not.  Post a Response

This might help...... Posted by Nina on 6/26/2009, 7:29 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 96.229.138.X : Aside from his credentials or the accuracy : of the translation, if Hua Hu Ching said : that, he's an extremist alright. : Just so you know, Steve, since you might not have read our other posts about it........ Hua Hu Ching isn't a person. :-) Master Ni claims the book "Hua Hu Ching" was written by Laozi. I've done extensive research (as has Lian Dao) about the Hua Hu Ching, and there's no way it was written by Laozi. Anyhoo.......... yes, it is extremist. :-)  Post a Response

Re: Out in left field Posted by Butcho on 6/26/2009, 9:55 pm, in reply to "Out in left field" 166.102.180.X : : "When a society misuses partial : intelligence and ignores holistic wisdom, : its people forget the benefits of a plain : and natural life." Hua Hu Ching. : : "Knowledge wandered north to the far : side of the primordial waters and climbed : the hills of the absconded rise. There he : happened to meet NonAction NoWords..." : Chuang Tzu. #22. : : Butcho : : : I'm not making excuses, Butch. I read : Walker's Hua Hu Ching, and I think it's a : crock! Why would I have a copy of it? : : Words are delightful tools to express what : we're thinking, feeling, experiencing. I : say "we" because I enjoy writing : words and listening to the words of others. : I think most people (even you) enjoy using : them too? You do use them a lot here. : : WTF is that from Walker's HHC....... : "holistic wisdom"? "A plain : natural life"? That's Daoist Religion : to the max. If you really believe that, why : don't you go live in a tent, pump your own : water and weave your own cloth? And you : might as well throw away your computer : 'cause there'll be no electricity. : : That's not extremist? Suggesting giving up : all the wonderful things our intelligence : (and that of others) has provided to bring : us more joy and happiness? : : You might look to Zhuangzi with a more : tongue-in-cheek attitude. Or not. : Nina, Give me that old time religion, Give me that old time religion. If its good enough for Lao Tzu If its good enough for Chuang Tzu, Its good enough for me. If your taoism isn't holistic then it does not embrace the Tao. If your taoism doesn't take you along a path towards an increasingly simpler and more natural life then it is not Taoism. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Butcho on 6/26/2009, 9:57 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 166.102.180.X --Previous Message-- : And I have a jaundiced eye when someone : claims : to be perfect, in anything. Thus my : conversations with our friend, Perfect : Steve. : : How did I get dragged into this thicket!?! : : I don't even know how to operate my VCR, and : I'm being accused of considering myself : "perfect"? : : ------------------------------ : : "If you wish to embody the Tao, stop : chattering and start practicing." Hua : Hu Ching. : : Yeah, pretty extremist stuff. : : Aside from his credentials or the accuracy : of the translation, if Hua Hu Ching said : that, he's an extremist alright. : : I'm going to bind him to your other masters, : Butcho, and drown him in the Chesapeake too. : : : Steve, To think that I ever took you for anything other than a plain and simple fool was very foolish of me. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Butcho on 6/26/2009, 10:15 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 166.102.180.X : : : Butch, my dear friend, please stop taking : everything personally. The Hua Hu Ching has : inspired acts of sectarian extremism, : whether or not it would inspire your good : self to commit such acts is a questionable : matter, but historically it has. : : That 'mainstream' ( is that a better word?) : Taoist groups avoid it really should be an : indication of sorts as to the ambiguity of : the text. : : i'm just saying, that's all. : Lian Dao, Yeah, the Communist Party ran the teachers of the Hua Hu Ching out of China. "I confess that there is nothing to teach: no religion, no science, no body of information which will lead your mind back to the Tao. Today I speak in this fashion, tomorrow in another, but always the Integral Way is beyond words and beyond mind. Simply be aware of the oneness of things." Hua Hu Ching Wisdom is wisdom. Butcho  Post a Response

an amateur zen pastiche Posted by Lian Dao on 6/27/2009, 9:04 am, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : : : : Butch, my dear friend, please stop taking : everything personally. The Hua Hu Ching has : inspired acts of sectarian extremism, : whether or not it would inspire your good : self to commit such acts is a questionable : matter, but historically it has. : : That 'mainstream' ( is that a better word?) : Taoist groups avoid it really should be an : indication of sorts as to the ambiguity of : the text. : : i'm just saying, that's all. : : : Lian Dao, : : Yeah, the Communist Party ran the teachers : of the Hua Hu Ching out of China. : : "I confess that there is nothing to : teach: no religion, no science, no body of : information which will lead your mind back : to the Tao. Today I speak in this fashion, : tomorrow in another, but always the Integral : Way is beyond words and beyond mind. Simply : be aware of the oneness of things." Hua : Hu Ching : : Wisdom is wisdom. : Indeed, and translations are something else altogether.  Post a Response

wisdom for sale, idiots only apply Posted by Lian Dao on 6/27/2009, 9:16 am, in reply to "This might help......" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : Aside from his credentials or the accuracy : of the translation, if Hua Hu Ching said : that, he's an extremist alright. : : : Just so you know, Steve, since you might not : have read our other posts about it........ : : Hua Hu Ching isn't a person. :-) : : Master Ni claims the book "Hua Hu : Ching" was written by Laozi. I've done : extensive research (as has Lian Dao) about : the Hua Hu Ching, and there's no way it was : written by Laozi. : : Anyhoo.......... yes, it is extremist. :-) : : : : Anyone who has ever read Ni's 'HHC' will be surprised, or not, at the complete absence of notes, bibliography and other hallmarks of scholastic prowess. Ni is a business man plain and simple, and in the new-age supermarket 'wisdom' sells. Fair play to him. If people want to spend their hard earned pennies sugar coating his earthly incarnation, then they are utterly free to do so. Business and spirituality seem to share the same maxim that there is a sucker born every minute. For sucker read 'chosen one'.  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Steve on 6/27/2009, 12:21 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 68.33.168.X : Steve, : : To think that I ever took you for anything : other than a plain and simple fool was very : foolish of me. : : Butcho ----------------------------- Thank you for your restraint there, Butcho. Not so long ago, your impulse would have been to call me a dirty little Jew fag whose people crucified your Lord and Savior. We've come a long way from that, however. Your breathing exercises appear to be working.  Post a Response

religion is the politicisation of spirituality Posted by Lian Dao on 6/27/2009, 4:00 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : Steve, : : To think that I ever took you for anything : other than a plain and simple fool was very : foolish of me. : : Butcho : : ----------------------------- : : Thank you for your restraint there, Butcho. : Not so long ago, your impulse would have : been to call me a dirty little Jew fag whose : people crucified your Lord and Savior. : : We've come a long way from that, however. : : Your breathing exercises appear to be : working. : : : i think the jury's still out on that one.  Post a Response

Re: religion is the politicisation of spirituality Posted by Steve on 6/27/2009, 4:26 pm, in reply to "religion is the politicisation of spirituality" 68.33.168.X Lian Dao, I'm considering resurrecting the exorcism thread and once again invoking the mysterious powers in an attempt to purge Brother Butcho of his demons. Currently, are you sufficiently purged of your own demons--to advise me on the matter?  Post a Response

fear of a black planet Posted by Lian Dao on 6/27/2009, 5:29 pm, in reply to "Re: religion is the politicisation of spirituality" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : Lian Dao, I'm considering resurrecting the : exorcism thread and once again invoking the : mysterious powers in an attempt to purge : Brother Butcho of his demons. : : Currently, are you sufficiently purged of : your own demons--to advise me on the matter? : : My demons and i are the best of mates, if that helps.  Post a Response

Re: Out in left field Posted by Nina on 6/28/2009, 9:04 am, in reply to "Re: Out in left field" 96.229.138.X : Nina, : : Give me that old time religion, : Give me that old time religion. : If its good enough for Lao Tzu : If its good enough for Chuang Tzu, : Its good enough for me. : : If your taoism isn't holistic then it does : not embrace the Tao. : : If your taoism doesn't take you along a path : towards an increasingly simpler and more : natural life then it is not Taoism. : : Butcho : I'm not Daoist, Butch. Nether were Laozi and Zhuangzi - the Daosist religion didn't exist when they were alive. However, the HHC could be a product of the Daoist religion. Maybe....... my life becomes simpler and more natural because I'm getting older.  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Butcho on 7/3/2009, 5:47 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 71.28.136.X --Previous Message-- : Steve, : : To think that I ever took you for anything : other than a plain and simple fool was very : foolish of me. : : Butcho : : ----------------------------- : : Thank you for your restraint there, Butcho. : Not so long ago, your impulse would have : been to call me a dirty little Jew fag whose : people crucified your Lord and Savior. : : We've come a long way from that, however. : : Your breathing exercises appear to be : working. : : : Steve, Yes, I have grown. How 'bout yourself? Butcho  Post a Response

Re: Out in left field Posted by Butcho on 7/3/2009, 5:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Out in left field" 71.28.136.X --Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : Give me that old time religion, : Give me that old time religion. : If its good enough for Lao Tzu : If its good enough for Chuang Tzu, : Its good enough for me. : : If your taoism isn't holistic then it does : not embrace the Tao. : : If your taoism doesn't take you along a path : towards an increasingly simpler and more : natural life then it is not Taoism. : : Butcho : : : I'm not Daoist, Butch. Nether were Laozi : and Zhuangzi - the Daosist religion didn't : exist when they were alive. : : However, the HHC could be a product of the : Daoist religion. : : Maybe....... my life becomes simpler and : more natural because I'm getting older. : : Nina, You need to get under the umbrella term of "Daoism". Otherwise you come across as all wet. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: an amateur zen pastiche Posted by Butcho on 7/3/2009, 6:07 pm, in reply to "an amateur zen pastiche" 71.28.136.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : : : Butch, my dear friend, please stop taking : everything personally. The Hua Hu Ching has : inspired acts of sectarian extremism, : whether or not it would inspire your good : self to commit such acts is a questionable : matter, but historically it has. : : That 'mainstream' ( is that a better word?) : Taoist groups avoid it really should be an : indication of sorts as to the ambiguity of : the text. : : i'm just saying, that's all. : : : Lian Dao, : : Yeah, the Communist Party ran the teachers : of the Hua Hu Ching out of China. : : "I confess that there is nothing to : teach: no religion, no science, no body of : information which will lead your mind back : to the Tao. Today I speak in this fashion, : tomorrow in another, but always the Integral : Way is beyond words and beyond mind. Simply : be aware of the oneness of things." Hua : Hu Ching : : Wisdom is wisdom. : : : : Indeed, and translations are something else : altogether. : : : Lian Dao, Some translations are wiser than others. Some are simply different strokes for different folks. If my preaching the unitive oneness of existence gets old just think how old your penchant for acrid invective gets. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: Out in left field Posted by Nina on 7/3/2009, 10:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Out in left field" 96.229.138.X : Nina, : : You need to get under the umbrella term of : "Daoism". Otherwise you come : across as all wet. : : Butcho : :  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Steve on 7/4/2009, 8:45 am, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 68.33.168.X : Steve, : : Yes, I have grown. : : How 'bout yourself? : : Butcho --------------------------- If you're alive, it's impossible not to be growing. Impossible not to be moving toward some goal. The less concerned I am with direction, though, the better things seem to go. Funny, that.  Post a Response

an ever shifting singular point of reference Posted by Lian Dao on 7/4/2009, 12:00 pm, in reply to "Re: an amateur zen pastiche" 86.130.174.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : : : Butch, my dear friend, please stop taking : everything personally. The Hua Hu Ching has : inspired acts of sectarian extremism, : whether or not it would inspire your good : self to commit such acts is a questionable : matter, but historically it has. : : That 'mainstream' ( is that a better word?) : Taoist groups avoid it really should be an : indication of sorts as to the ambiguity of : the text. : : i'm just saying, that's all. : : : Lian Dao, : : Yeah, the Communist Party ran the teachers : of the Hua Hu Ching out of China. : : "I confess that there is nothing to : teach: no religion, no science, no body of : information which will lead your mind back : to the Tao. Today I speak in this fashion, : tomorrow in another, but always the Integral : Way is beyond words and beyond mind. Simply : be aware of the oneness of things." Hua : Hu Ching : : Wisdom is wisdom. : : : : Indeed, and translations are something else : altogether. : : : : Lian Dao, : : Some translations are wiser than others. : : Some are simply different strokes for : different folks. : : If my preaching the unitive oneness of : existence gets old just think how old your : penchant for acrid invective gets. It does? i mean, it does. You're right. i can't argue with that. Some translations aren't worth the paper they're written on. Infact some of the original texts they purport to translate, aren't either. That isn't my fault Butch, amigo.  Post a Response

Re: Out in left field Posted by Butcho on 7/4/2009, 2:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Out in left field" 75.88.46.X --Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : You need to get under the umbrella term of : "Daoism". Otherwise you come : across as all wet. : : Butcho : : : : : Nina, Even the great Gene Kelly kept his umbrella with him when dancing in the rain just in case he ran into a friend made of sugar. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Butcho on 7/4/2009, 4:58 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 75.88.46.X --Previous Message-- : Steve, : : Yes, I have grown. : : How 'bout yourself? : : Butcho : : --------------------------- : : If you're alive, it's impossible not to be : growing. Impossible not to be moving toward : some goal. : : The less concerned I am with direction, : though, the better things seem to go. : : Funny, that. : : Steve, A sunflower knows to turn towards the sun. Are you less intelligent than a sunflower? Butcho  Post a Response

Re: an ever shifting singular point of reference Posted by Butcho on 7/4/2009, 5:11 pm, in reply to "an ever shifting singular point of reference" 75.88.46.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : : : Butch, my dear friend, please stop taking : everything personally. The Hua Hu Ching has : inspired acts of sectarian extremism, : whether or not it would inspire your good : self to commit such acts is a questionable : matter, but historically it has. : : That 'mainstream' ( is that a better word?) : Taoist groups avoid it really should be an : indication of sorts as to the ambiguity of : the text. : : i'm just saying, that's all. : : : Lian Dao, : : Yeah, the Communist Party ran the teachers : of the Hua Hu Ching out of China. : : "I confess that there is nothing to : teach: no religion, no science, no body of : information which will lead your mind back : to the Tao. Today I speak in this fashion, : tomorrow in another, but always the Integral : Way is beyond words and beyond mind. Simply : be aware of the oneness of things." Hua : Hu Ching : : Wisdom is wisdom. : : : : Indeed, and translations are something else : altogether. : : : : Lian Dao, : : Some translations are wiser than others. : : Some are simply different strokes for : different folks. : : If my preaching the unitive oneness of : existence gets old just think how old your : penchant for acrid invective gets. : : : It does? : : i mean, it does. You're right. i can't argue : with that. : : Some translations aren't worth the paper : they're written on. Infact some of the : original texts they purport to translate, : aren't either. : : That isn't my fault Butch, amigo. : : : Lian Dao, Then why do you do it? The only thing Jesus is reported to have written was in dirt and then wiped away as soon as it was read by those present. The Buddha is reported to not actually have written anything. Lao Tzu wrote very little. But then Shakespeare wrote quite a lot. Words have their place. The trick is not to have them have us. The words of the Hua Hu Ching resonate with me. But then I never could eat just one Granny Goose potato chip either. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Steve on 7/5/2009, 8:45 am, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 68.33.168.X : Steve, : : Yes, I have grown. : : How 'bout yourself? : : Butcho -------------------------- : If you're alive, it's impossible not to be : growing. Impossible not to be moving toward : some goal. : The less concerned I am with direction, : though, the better things seem to go. : : Funny, that. -------------------------- : Steve, : : A sunflower knows to turn towards the sun. : : Are you less intelligent than a sunflower? : : Butcho -------------------------- No book, no master, had to tell the sunflower how to do that. It just knows. The operating manual came preinstalled in its DNA. Are you less intelligent than a sunflower?  Post a Response

chumbawumba Posted by Lian Dao on 7/5/2009, 2:41 pm, in reply to "Re: an ever shifting singular point of reference" 86.130.174.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : : : Butch, my dear friend, please stop taking : everything personally. The Hua Hu Ching has : inspired acts of sectarian extremism, : whether or not it would inspire your good : self to commit such acts is a questionable : matter, but historically it has. : : That 'mainstream' ( is that a better word?) : Taoist groups avoid it really should be an : indication of sorts as to the ambiguity of : the text. : : i'm just saying, that's all. : : : Lian Dao, : : Yeah, the Communist Party ran the teachers : of the Hua Hu Ching out of China. : : "I confess that there is nothing to : teach: no religion, no science, no body of : information which will lead your mind back : to the Tao. Today I speak in this fashion, : tomorrow in another, but always the Integral : Way is beyond words and beyond mind. Simply : be aware of the oneness of things." Hua : Hu Ching : : Wisdom is wisdom. : : : : Indeed, and translations are something else : altogether. : : : : Lian Dao, : : Some translations are wiser than others. : : Some are simply different strokes for : different folks. : : If my preaching the unitive oneness of : existence gets old just think how old your : penchant for acrid invective gets. : : : It does? : : i mean, it does. You're right. i can't argue : with that. : : Some translations aren't worth the paper : they're written on. Infact some of the : original texts they purport to translate, : aren't either. : : That isn't my fault Butch, amigo. : : : : Lian Dao, : : Then why do you do it? i dunno. Maybe it's just the way i am? Maybe it's what resonates with me? There are worse things to be, wouldn't you agree? : : The only thing Jesus is reported to have : written was in dirt and then wiped away as : soon as it was read by those present. : : The Buddha is reported to not actually have : written anything. : : Lao Tzu wrote very little. : : But then Shakespeare wrote quite a lot. Scholars, generally, believe that Shakespeare didn't actually write all that Shakespeare stuff. Put a monkey in front of a keyboard and, apparently, it too would write Shakespeare. : : Words have their place. The trick is not to : have them have us. i could hardly agree more. : : The words of the Hua Hu Ching resonate with : me. : : But then I never could eat just one Granny : Goose potato chip either. : If only i knew what they were...........  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Butcho on 7/5/2009, 3:36 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 162.39.187.X --Previous Message-- : Steve, : : Yes, I have grown. : : How 'bout yourself? : : Butcho : : -------------------------- : : If you're alive, it's impossible not to be : growing. Impossible not to be moving toward : some goal. : : The less concerned I am with direction, : though, the better things seem to go. : : Funny, that. : : -------------------------- : : Steve, : : A sunflower knows to turn towards the sun. : : Are you less intelligent than a sunflower? : : Butcho : : -------------------------- : : No book, no master, had to tell the : sunflower how to do that. It just knows. : The operating manual came preinstalled in : its DNA. : : Are you less intelligent than a sunflower? : : Steve, Yes, my conditioned mind is less intelligent than the natural mind of a sunflower. As is yours... especially yours. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: chumbawumba Posted by Butcho on 7/5/2009, 3:47 pm, in reply to "chumbawumba" 162.39.187.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : : : Butch, my dear friend, please stop taking : everything personally. The Hua Hu Ching has : inspired acts of sectarian extremism, : whether or not it would inspire your good : self to commit such acts is a questionable : matter, but historically it has. : : That 'mainstream' ( is that a better word?) : Taoist groups avoid it really should be an : indication of sorts as to the ambiguity of : the text. : : i'm just saying, that's all. : : : Lian Dao, : : Yeah, the Communist Party ran the teachers : of the Hua Hu Ching out of China. : : "I confess that there is nothing to : teach: no religion, no science, no body of : information which will lead your mind back : to the Tao. Today I speak in this fashion, : tomorrow in another, but always the Integral : Way is beyond words and beyond mind. Simply : be aware of the oneness of things." Hua : Hu Ching : : Wisdom is wisdom. : : : : Indeed, and translations are something else : altogether. : : : : Lian Dao, : : Some translations are wiser than others. : : Some are simply different strokes for : different folks. : : If my preaching the unitive oneness of : existence gets old just think how old your : penchant for acrid invective gets. : : : It does? : : i mean, it does. You're right. i can't argue : with that. : : Some translations aren't worth the paper : they're written on. Infact some of the : original texts they purport to translate, : aren't either. : : That isn't my fault Butch, amigo. : : : : Lian Dao, : : Then why do you do it? : : : i dunno. : : Maybe it's just the way i am? : : Maybe it's what resonates with me? : : There are worse things to be, wouldn't you : agree? : : : : : The only thing Jesus is reported to have : written was in dirt and then wiped away as : soon as it was read by those present. : : The Buddha is reported to not actually have : written anything. : : Lao Tzu wrote very little. : : But then Shakespeare wrote quite a lot. : : : Scholars, generally, believe that : Shakespeare didn't actually write all that : Shakespeare stuff. : : Put a monkey in front of a keyboard and, : apparently, it too would write Shakespeare. : : : Words have their place. The trick is not to : have them have us. : : i could hardly agree more. : : : The words of the Hua Hu Ching resonate with : me. : : But then I never could eat just one Granny : Goose potato chip either. : : : : If only i knew what they were........... : Lian Dao, Which goes to prove my point. If you don't know what Granny Goose potato chips are then you don't know anything. ... what is a chumbawumba? Is it complimented by a red or a white wine? I know someone from an online forum that is a monkey. Can't write too good but he sure is one heck of a shit thrower. Hillbilly monkey I guess. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Steve on 7/5/2009, 3:59 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 68.33.168.X : Steve, : : A sunflower knows to turn towards the sun. : : Are you less intelligent than a sunflower? : : Butcho ------------------- : No book, no master, had to tell the : sunflower how to do that. It just knows. : The operating manual came preinstalled in : its DNA. : : Are you less intelligent than a sunflower? ------------------- : Steve, : : Yes, my conditioned mind is less intelligent : than the natural mind of a sunflower. : : As is yours... especially yours. : : Butcho -------------------- There's nothing wrong with the conditioned mind, Butcho. Not a thing. Your mind, on the other hand, is (how to put this...) disturbed--due to certain youthful indiscretions involving drugs that have since been made illegal. Imo the justification for having made those drugs illegal is that their misuse resulted in people like you, who run around declaring that there is something wrong with the conditioned mind.  Post a Response

dolphins were monkeys Posted by Lian Dao on 7/5/2009, 4:01 pm, in reply to "Re: chumbawumba" 86.130.174.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : : : Butch, my dear friend, please stop taking : everything personally. The Hua Hu Ching has : inspired acts of sectarian extremism, : whether or not it would inspire your good : self to commit such acts is a questionable : matter, but historically it has. : : That 'mainstream' ( is that a better word?) : Taoist groups avoid it really should be an : indication of sorts as to the ambiguity of : the text. : : i'm just saying, that's all. : : : Lian Dao, : : Yeah, the Communist Party ran the teachers : of the Hua Hu Ching out of China. : : "I confess that there is nothing to : teach: no religion, no science, no body of : information which will lead your mind back : to the Tao. Today I speak in this fashion, : tomorrow in another, but always the Integral : Way is beyond words and beyond mind. Simply : be aware of the oneness of things." Hua : Hu Ching : : Wisdom is wisdom. : : : : Indeed, and translations are something else : altogether. : : : : Lian Dao, : : Some translations are wiser than others. : : Some are simply different strokes for : different folks. : : If my preaching the unitive oneness of : existence gets old just think how old your : penchant for acrid invective gets. : : : It does? : : i mean, it does. You're right. i can't argue : with that. : : Some translations aren't worth the paper : they're written on. Infact some of the : original texts they purport to translate, : aren't either. : : That isn't my fault Butch, amigo. : : : : Lian Dao, : : Then why do you do it? : : : i dunno. : : Maybe it's just the way i am? : : Maybe it's what resonates with me? : : There are worse things to be, wouldn't you : agree? : : : : : The only thing Jesus is reported to have : written was in dirt and then wiped away as : soon as it was read by those present. : : The Buddha is reported to not actually have : written anything. : : Lao Tzu wrote very little. : : But then Shakespeare wrote quite a lot. : : : Scholars, generally, believe that : Shakespeare didn't actually write all that : Shakespeare stuff. : : Put a monkey in front of a keyboard and, : apparently, it too would write Shakespeare. : : : Words have their place. The trick is not to : have them have us. : : i could hardly agree more. : : : The words of the Hua Hu Ching resonate with : me. : : But then I never could eat just one Granny : Goose potato chip either. : : : : If only i knew what they were........... : : Lian Dao, : : Which goes to prove my point. If you don't : know what Granny Goose potato chips are then : you don't know anything. : : ... what is a chumbawumba? Is it : complimented by a red or a white wine? : : I know someone from an online forum that is : a monkey. Can't write too good but he sure : is one heck of a shit thrower. Hillbilly : monkey I guess. : Monkey see, monkey do. You were a military man. What do you know think, via the gift of hindsight, about the armed forces jargon revolving primarily around 'shit' and 'ass'? 'Chumbawumba' is, apparently what a monkey wrote when coerced into typing on a keyboard. Nuff said.  Post a Response

Re: dolphins were monkeys Posted by Nina on 7/5/2009, 7:25 pm, in reply to "dolphins were monkeys" 96.229.138.X : Monkey see, monkey do. : : You were a military man. What do you know : think, via the gift of hindsight, about the : armed forces jargon revolving primarily : around 'shit' and 'ass'? : : 'Chumbawumba' is, apparently what a monkey : wrote when coerced into typing on a : keyboard. Nuff said. : A bit of trivia....... The word shit was developed in the navy. It seemed that when all the feces from the guys on board was stored deep in the hull, the gasses it produced created fires on the ship. So......... S.H.I.T. was place on the crates: Ship High In Transit I don't know how ass became used for one's posterior?  Post a Response

Re: Out in left field Posted by Nina on 7/5/2009, 7:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Out in left field" 96.229.138.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : You need to get under the umbrella term of : "Daoism". Otherwise you come : across as all wet. : : Butcho : : : : : : Nina, : : Even the great Gene Kelly kept his umbrella : with him when dancing in the rain just in : case he ran into a friend made of sugar. : : Butcho : I guess you didn't watch the vid to the end.  Post a Response

Re: Out in left field Posted by Butcho on 7/5/2009, 8:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Out in left field" 162.39.187.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : You need to get under the umbrella term of : "Daoism". Otherwise you come : across as all wet. : : Butcho : : : : : : Nina, : : Even the great Gene Kelly kept his umbrella : with him when dancing in the rain just in : case he ran into a friend made of sugar. : : Butcho : : : I guess you didn't watch the vid to the end. : : Nina, There you go again. Premature dancillation. The journey is the goal. The means are the ends for the only time is now. Those that justify their means by their ends tend to be mean. There is no end to the flow. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Butcho on 7/5/2009, 8:27 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 162.39.187.X --Previous Message-- : Steve, : : A sunflower knows to turn towards the sun. : : Are you less intelligent than a sunflower? : : Butcho : : ------------------- : : No book, no master, had to tell the : sunflower how to do that. It just knows. : The operating manual came preinstalled in : its DNA. : : Are you less intelligent than a sunflower? : : ------------------- : : Steve, : : Yes, my conditioned mind is less intelligent : than the natural mind of a sunflower. : : As is yours... especially yours. : : Butcho : : -------------------- : : There's nothing wrong with the conditioned : mind, Butcho. Not a thing. : : Your mind, on the other hand, is (how to put : this...) disturbed--due to certain youthful : indiscretions involving drugs that have : since been made illegal. : : Imo the justification for having made those : drugs illegal is that their misuse resulted : in people like you, who run around declaring : that there is something wrong with the : conditioned mind. : : : Steve, The only thing that thinks there is no problem with the conditioned mind is the conditioned mind. The conditioned mind is a straw dog. A mistaken case of identity good for nothing but burning within the light of awareness. There are many triggering agents where mystical insight is concerned. The conditioned mind would ban them all. Are you trying to ban me? Do my words.... bother you? Maybe it would be better if I let this sleeping straw dog lie. Nah! Kicking you in the middle of your rationalizations is good for both of us. You might wake up yet and I get to practice on the dead. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: dolphins were monkeys Posted by Butcho on 7/5/2009, 8:53 pm, in reply to "Re: dolphins were monkeys" 162.39.187.X --Previous Message-- : : Monkey see, monkey do. : Lian Dao & Nina too, Ok, three in the morning. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Steve on 7/6/2009, 8:22 am, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 68.33.168.X : Steve, : : The only thing that thinks there is no : problem with the conditioned mind is the : conditioned mind. : : The conditioned mind is a straw dog. A : mistaken case of identity good for nothing : but burning within the light of awareness. : : There are many triggering agents where : mystical insight is concerned. The : conditioned mind would ban them all. Are you : trying to ban me? Do my words.... bother : you? : : Maybe it would be better if I let this : sleeping straw dog lie. : : Nah! Kicking you in the middle of your : rationalizations is good for both of us. You : might wake up yet and I get to practice on : the dead. : : Butcho -------------------------- Socially conscious as I am, Butcho, I'm concerned with the ramifications of guys like you running around telling people there's something wrong with their minds. Something wrong with how their lives are playing out. One perceives 'mistaken identity' only when one lives in an essentially problematic universe. As you do, apparently. My universe is fine as is, thank you.  Post a Response

Re: dolphins were monkeys Posted by Lian Dao on 7/6/2009, 3:55 pm, in reply to "Re: dolphins were monkeys" 86.130.174.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Monkey see, monkey do. : : : Lian Dao & Nina too, : : Ok, three in the morning. : Is that Butchspeak for, 'I'm bored now'?  Post a Response

the trouble with tribbles Posted by Lian Dao on 7/6/2009, 4:08 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 86.130.174.X --Previous Message-- : : Steve, : : The only thing that thinks there is no : problem with the conditioned mind is the : conditioned mind. : : The conditioned mind is a straw dog. A : mistaken case of identity good for nothing : but burning within the light of awareness. : : There are many triggering agents where : mystical insight is concerned. The : conditioned mind would ban them all. Are you : trying to ban me? Do my words.... bother : you? : : Maybe it would be better if I let this : sleeping straw dog lie. : : Nah! Kicking you in the middle of your : rationalizations is good for both of us. You : might wake up yet and I get to practice on : the dead. : : Butcho : : -------------------------- : : Socially conscious as I am, Butcho, I'm : concerned with the ramifications of guys : like you running around telling people : there's something wrong with their minds. : Something wrong with how their lives are : playing out. : : One perceives 'mistaken identity' only when : one lives in an essentially problematic : universe. As you do, apparently. : : My universe is fine as is, thank you. : : : Maybe the problem is simply in Oak Tree's head? Claiming to be 'unconditioned' is very much a symptomn of the 'conditioned' mind. How do i know this? Because i'm 'unconditioned'. The sheer irony of Oak Tree's dualistic worldview which divides up his precious 'oneness' into conditional/unconditional and awake/asleep, hasn't even been noticed by the Unconditioned One. Surely there's only 'one' mind Butch? And if he's still practicing after all this time, maybe he should stop practicing and start doing it properly?  Post a Response

Re: the trouble with tribbles Posted by Steve on 7/6/2009, 4:56 pm, in reply to "the trouble with tribbles" 68.33.168.X : Maybe the problem is simply in Oak Tree's : head? : : Claiming to be 'unconditioned' is very much : a symptomn of the 'conditioned' mind. : : How do i know this? : : Because i'm 'unconditioned'. : : The sheer irony of Oak Tree's dualistic : worldview which divides up his precious : 'oneness' into conditional/unconditional and : awake/asleep, hasn't even been noticed by : the Unconditioned One. Surely there's only : 'one' mind Butch? : : And if he's still practicing after all this : time, maybe he should stop practicing and : start doing it properly? ----------------------------- Yes, well...that particular irony appears to be lost on our friend, Lian Dao. As I've suggested in the past, Butcho's is the most dualistic approach imaginable--yet he likes to pretend that he has transcended the false dualities held by the 'unenlightened.' Whatever. On another subject, I'm in the process of forming a new world religion based on the miraculous appearance (during my shower this morning) of discarded nasal bone cartilage from Michael Jackson's last four nose jobs. I'm looking to staff up. Are you available?  Post a Response

Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges! Posted by Butcho on 7/6/2009, 11:07 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't have to show you no stinkin' a' badges!" 162.40.48.X --Previous Message-- : : Steve, : : The only thing that thinks there is no : problem with the conditioned mind is the : conditioned mind. : : The conditioned mind is a straw dog. A : mistaken case of identity good for nothing : but burning within the light of awareness. : : There are many triggering agents where : mystical insight is concerned. The : conditioned mind would ban them all. Are you : trying to ban me? Do my words.... bother : you? : : Maybe it would be better if I let this : sleeping straw dog lie. : : Nah! Kicking you in the middle of your : rationalizations is good for both of us. You : might wake up yet and I get to practice on : the dead. : : Butcho : : -------------------------- : : Socially conscious as I am, Butcho, I'm : concerned with the ramifications of guys : like you running around telling people : there's something wrong with their minds. : Something wrong with how their lives are : playing out. : : One perceives 'mistaken identity' only when : one lives in an essentially problematic : universe. As you do, apparently. : : My universe is fine as is, thank you. : : Steve, Your problem is your inability to admit that there might be a problem. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: the trouble with tribbles Posted by Butcho on 7/6/2009, 11:10 pm, in reply to "the trouble with tribbles" 162.40.48.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Steve, : : The only thing that thinks there is no : problem with the conditioned mind is the : conditioned mind. : : The conditioned mind is a straw dog. A : mistaken case of identity good for nothing : but burning within the light of awareness. : : There are many triggering agents where : mystical insight is concerned. The : conditioned mind would ban them all. Are you : trying to ban me? Do my words.... bother : you? : : Maybe it would be better if I let this : sleeping straw dog lie. : : Nah! Kicking you in the middle of your : rationalizations is good for both of us. You : might wake up yet and I get to practice on : the dead. : : Butcho : : -------------------------- : : Socially conscious as I am, Butcho, I'm : concerned with the ramifications of guys : like you running around telling people : there's something wrong with their minds. : Something wrong with how their lives are : playing out. : : One perceives 'mistaken identity' only when : one lives in an essentially problematic : universe. As you do, apparently. : : My universe is fine as is, thank you. : : : : : Maybe the problem is simply in Oak Tree's : head? : : Claiming to be 'unconditioned' is very much : a symptomn of the 'conditioned' mind. : : How do i know this? : : Because i'm 'unconditioned'. : : The sheer irony of Oak Tree's dualistic : worldview which divides up his precious : 'oneness' into conditional/unconditional and : awake/asleep, hasn't even been noticed by : the Unconditioned One. Surely there's only : 'one' mind Butch? : : And if he's still practicing after all this : time, maybe he should stop practicing and : start doing it properly? : Lian Dao, I have never claimed to be 100% unconditioned. I am a work in progress. As are we all. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: dolphins were monkeys Posted by Butcho on 7/6/2009, 11:12 pm, in reply to "Re: dolphins were monkeys" 162.40.48.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Monkey see, monkey do. : : : Lian Dao & Nina too, : : Ok, three in the morning. : : : : : Is that Butchspeak for, 'I'm bored now'? : : Lian Dao, As you wish. Butcho  Post a Response

the trouble with problems Posted by Lian Dao on 7/7/2009, 2:39 pm, in reply to "Re: the trouble with tribbles" 86.130.174.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Steve, : : The only thing that thinks there is no : problem with the conditioned mind is the : conditioned mind. : : The conditioned mind is a straw dog. A : mistaken case of identity good for nothing : but burning within the light of awareness. : : There are many triggering agents where : mystical insight is concerned. The : conditioned mind would ban them all. Are you : trying to ban me? Do my words.... bother : you? : : Maybe it would be better if I let this : sleeping straw dog lie. : : Nah! Kicking you in the middle of your : rationalizations is good for both of us. You : might wake up yet and I get to practice on : the dead. : : Butcho : : -------------------------- : : Socially conscious as I am, Butcho, I'm : concerned with the ramifications of guys : like you running around telling people : there's something wrong with their minds. : Something wrong with how their lives are : playing out. : : One perceives 'mistaken identity' only when : one lives in an essentially problematic : universe. As you do, apparently. : : My universe is fine as is, thank you. : : : : : Maybe the problem is simply in Oak Tree's : head? : : Claiming to be 'unconditioned' is very much : a symptomn of the 'conditioned' mind. : : How do i know this? : : Because i'm 'unconditioned'. : : The sheer irony of Oak Tree's dualistic : worldview which divides up his precious : 'oneness' into conditional/unconditional and : awake/asleep, hasn't even been noticed by : the Unconditioned One. Surely there's only : 'one' mind Butch? : : And if he's still practicing after all this : time, maybe he should stop practicing and : start doing it properly? : : Lian Dao, : : I have never claimed to be 100% : unconditioned. I am a work in progress. As : are we all. : i never said you did, did i? The only 'progress' we affect is from birth to death. Anyone can do that. What makes you so special?  Post a Response

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