[ Tao Speaks ]

An Unforced Error Has Occurred. Posted by Butcho on 6/17/2009, 5:24 pm 75.88.44.X Steve and I have a running conversation about whether or not anything needs to be done or not. Steve argues that nothing needs to be done. I argue that something does. To cultivate or not to cultivate. I like to think that most if not all of our words and those of others here on this topic have for the most part been "friendly". For lack of a more unitive word. But still we keep coming back to this seemingly fundamental disagreement between two seemingly opposite points of view. What to do? Perhaps a compromise! Perhaps there is a middle way. An underlying unity. Maybe Steve and I and anyone else that cares (josef) and others, ok, and gar too, can come to some sort of confluence on the matter. "Wu-wei". The Tao does nothing, and yet everything is done. Wu-wei is not "inaction" or "nonaction". Rather, wu-wei is "unforced" action. Natural action. Action in accord with the ways of the eternal Tao as they are revealed by the nature of Nature. Action that is not in accord with the watercourse way of the Tao is contrived, forced. Action that is in accord, is unforced, natural, spontaneous. I would submit that meditation is that state of no-mind where nothing is forced. That it is not that anything needs nor does not need to be done, rather that whatever is done is not forced. With that said I will not try to force my point and let others, if they wish, chime in. Maybe an old straw dog can learn a new trick. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Error Has Occurred. Posted by Nina on 6/17/2009, 6:59 pm, in reply to "An Unforced Error Has Occurred." 96.229.138.X --Previous Message-- : Steve and I have a running conversation about : whether or not anything needs to be done or : not. Steve argues that nothing needs to be : done. I argue that something does. To : cultivate or not to cultivate. : : I like to think that most if not all of our : words and those of others here on this topic : have for the most part been : "friendly". For lack of a more : unitive word. : : But still we keep coming back to this : seemingly fundamental disagreement between : two seemingly opposite points of view. What : to do? Perhaps a compromise! Perhaps there : is a middle way. An underlying unity. : : Maybe Steve and I and anyone else that cares : (josef) and others, ok, and gar too, can : come to some sort of confluence on the : matter. : : "Wu-wei". The Tao does nothing, : and yet everything is done. Wu-wei is not : "inaction" or : "nonaction". Rather, wu-wei is : "unforced" action. Natural action. : Action in accord with the ways of the : eternal Tao as they are revealed by the : nature of Nature. Action that is not in : accord with the watercourse way of the Tao : is contrived, forced. Action that is in : accord, is unforced, natural, spontaneous. : : I would submit that meditation is that state : of no-mind where nothing is forced. That it : is not that anything needs nor does not need : to be done, rather that whatever is done is : not forced. With that said I will not try to : force my point and let others, if they wish, : chime in. Maybe an old straw dog can learn a : new trick. : : Butcho : Are you asking for opinions, Butch? I've got one..... or two. I think everyone is cultivating. They just may not be cultivating the same things you are. Like in Gar's little story...... people choose what they want to cultivate? Just because someone meditates - and gets to a state of an empty mind - doesn't mean they'll get anywhere near what you deem to be the "proper" result they should have. I've known people who meditated a LOT, and were just as ####ed up as someone who didn't. And...... just because someone doesn't meditate, that doesn't mean they aren't cultivating themselves to a delightful experience in this life. Maybe it's best to let those who feel the need to do something - do something. And let those who don't feel that need - not do anything. But if that happened........ Maybe you folks here wouldn't have so much fun jumping on each other? :-) My wei or the highwei? Wu wei your wei? I've still got a wei to go, but I'm finding more smiles along the wei now. Hope you are too.  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Error Has Occurred. Posted by gar on 6/17/2009, 7:19 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Error Has Occurred." 70.100.195.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Steve and I have a running conversation : about : whether or not anything needs to be done or : not. Steve argues that nothing needs to be : done. I argue that something does. To : cultivate or not to cultivate. : : I like to think that most if not all of our : words and those of others here on this topic : have for the most part been : "friendly". For lack of a more : unitive word. : : But still we keep coming back to this : seemingly fundamental disagreement between : two seemingly opposite points of view. What : to do? Perhaps a compromise! Perhaps there : is a middle way. An underlying unity. : : Maybe Steve and I and anyone else that cares : (josef) and others, ok, and gar too, can : come to some sort of confluence on the : matter. : : "Wu-wei". The Tao does nothing, : and yet everything is done. Wu-wei is not : "inaction" or : "nonaction". Rather, wu-wei is : "unforced" action. Natural action. : Action in accord with the ways of the : eternal Tao as they are revealed by the : nature of Nature. Action that is not in : accord with the watercourse way of the Tao : is contrived, forced. Action that is in : accord, is unforced, natural, spontaneous. : : I would submit that meditation is that state : of no-mind where nothing is forced. That it : is not that anything needs nor does not need : to be done, rather that whatever is done is : not forced. With that said I will not try to : force my point and let others, if they wish, : chime in. Maybe an old straw dog can learn a : new trick. : : Butcho : : : : Are you asking for opinions, Butch? I've : got one..... or two. : : I think everyone is cultivating. They just : may not be cultivating the same things you : are. Like in Gar's little story...... : people choose what they want to cultivate? : : Just because someone meditates - and gets to : a state of an empty mind - doesn't mean : they'll get anywhere near what you deem to : be the "proper" result they should : have. I've known people who meditated a : LOT, and were just as ####ed up as someone : who didn't. : : And...... just because someone doesn't : meditate, that doesn't mean they aren't : cultivating themselves to a delightful : experience in this life. : : Maybe it's best to let those who feel the : need to do something - do something. And : let those who don't feel that need - not do : anything. : : But if that happened........ : Maybe you folks here wouldn't have so much : fun jumping on each other? :-) : : My wei or the highwei? : Wu wei your wei? : : I've still got a wei to go, but I'm finding : more smiles along the wei now. Hope you are : too. : : : Thanks Nina, I'm going to bed tonight with a smile that came from your words. in peace, gar :  Post a Response

An Unforced Smile Has Occurred. Posted by Nina on 6/17/2009, 8:06 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Error Has Occurred." 96.229.138.X : Thanks Nina, I'm going to bed tonight with a : smile that came from your words. : : in peace, : gar : : Thank YOU, sweet Gar. You've put a smile on my face tonight too! Sweet dreams.  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Smile Has Occurred. Posted by Butcho on 6/17/2009, 9:25 pm, in reply to " An Unforced Smile Has Occurred." 162.40.48.X --Previous Message-- : : Thanks Nina, I'm going to bed tonight with a : smile that came from your words. : : in peace, : gar : : : : Thank YOU, sweet Gar. You've put a smile on : my face tonight too! : : Sweet dreams. : : : Friends, Were those forced or unforced smiles?... How many Zen Masters does it take to change a lightbulb? Two. One to change it. One not to change it. Butcho  Post a Response

swinging smile Posted by yijing qian dragon on 4th leve on 6/18/2009, 1:01 am, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Smile Has Occurred." 85.181.35.X : swinging... flying... jumping... living in this turbling pool... dwelling in the non-visible... learning with the hidden dragon...  Post a Response

Re: swinging smile Posted by Butcho on 6/18/2009, 6:45 am, in reply to "swinging smile" 162.39.190.X --Previous Message-- : : : swinging... flying... jumping... living in : this turbling pool... : dwelling in the non-visible... : learning with the hidden dragon... : Cheshire Cat, Show off. Now don't get all mimsy like the borogroves. And please whichever way you go don't gyre and gimble in the wabe. ... But then it doesn't really matter which way you go if you follow the dragon. And so when you get a chance to sit it out or dance, I hope you dance. I hope you dance. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Error Has Occurred. Posted by gar on 6/18/2009, 7:21 am, in reply to "An Unforced Error Has Occurred." 70.100.195.X --Previous Message-- : Steve and I have a running conversation about : whether or not anything needs to be done or : not. Steve argues that nothing needs to be : done. I argue that something does. To : cultivate or not to cultivate. : : I like to think that most if not all of our : words and those of others here on this topic : have for the most part been : "friendly". For lack of a more : unitive word. : : But still we keep coming back to this : seemingly fundamental disagreement between : two seemingly opposite points of view. What : to do? Perhaps a compromise! Perhaps there : is a middle way. An underlying unity. : : Maybe Steve and I and anyone else that cares : (josef) and others, ok, and gar too, can : come to some sort of confluence on the : matter. : : "Wu-wei". The Tao does nothing, : and yet everything is done. Wu-wei is not : "inaction" or : "nonaction". Rather, wu-wei is : "unforced" action. Natural action. : Action in accord with the ways of the : eternal Tao as they are revealed by the : nature of Nature. Action that is not in : accord with the watercourse way of the Tao : is contrived, forced. Action that is in : accord, is unforced, natural, spontaneous. : : I would submit that meditation is that state : of no-mind where nothing is forced. That it : is not that anything needs nor does not need : to be done, rather that whatever is done is : not forced. With that said I will not try to : force my point and let others, if they wish, : chime in. Maybe an old straw dog can learn a : new trick. : Greetings Butcho, Re; "That it is not that anything needs nor does not need to be done, rather that whatever is done is not forced. With that said I will not try to force my point and let others, if they wish, chime in. Maybe an old straw dog can learn a new trick." It seems to me that old dogs aren't likely to learn new tricks. Forced, not forced, all in the realm of Tao. However, not forced seems to make the journey a smoother ride. Riding the waves is easier on the boat and it might make for longevity with TLC.  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Error Has Occurred. Posted by Steve on 6/18/2009, 10:44 am, in reply to "An Unforced Error Has Occurred." 68.33.168.X : Steve and I have a running conversation about : whether or not anything needs to be done or : not. Steve argues that nothing needs to be : done. I argue that something does. To : cultivate or not to cultivate. : : I like to think that most if not all of our : words and those of others here on this topic : have for the most part been : "friendly". For lack of a more : unitive word. : : But still we keep coming back to this : seemingly fundamental disagreement between : two seemingly opposite points of view. What : to do? Perhaps a compromise! Perhaps there : is a middle way. An underlying unity. : : Maybe Steve and I and anyone else that cares : (josef) and others, ok, and gar too, can : come to some sort of confluence on the : matter. : : "Wu-wei". The Tao does nothing, : and yet everything is done. Wu-wei is not : "inaction" or : "nonaction". Rather, wu-wei is : "unforced" action. Natural action. : Action in accord with the ways of the : eternal Tao as they are revealed by the : nature of Nature. Action that is not in : accord with the watercourse way of the Tao : is contrived, forced. Action that is in : accord, is unforced, natural, spontaneous. : : I would submit that meditation is that state : of no-mind where nothing is forced. That it : is not that anything needs nor does not need : to be done, rather that whatever is done is : not forced. With that said I will not try to : force my point and let others, if they wish, : chime in. Maybe an old straw dog can learn a : new trick. : : Butcho ------------------------------- I'd say Nina's "Maybe it's best to let those who feel the need to do something - do something. And let those who don't feel that need - not do anything" is right on target. The tricky part is doing that--letting people be-- without being judgmental. Recognizing that either way--cultivation or no cultivation--is okay. You, Butcho, have repeatedly and categorically judged non-cultivators to be out-of-step and unaware. You've admitted to being on a mission to persuade non-cultivators that they're missing out on something fundamentally important to their awareness and well-being. I agree with rat on this subject. For those for whom cultivation addresses a conscious need--be it a desire for wisdom, more happiness, whatever--cultivation is a good thing. For those for whom cultivation does not address a conscious need, not cultivating is equally a good thing. Steve  Post a Response

An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Nina on 6/18/2009, 11:07 am, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Error Has Occurred." 96.229.138.X : For those for whom cultivation does not : address a conscious need, not cultivating is : equally a good thing. : : Steve : I agree with most of what you said, Steve, but I still think........ Everyone is cultivating in some way or another. Some people cultivate themselves better by jumping right into the experience and watching where the chips fall. Others close themselves off by sitting alone and emptying their minds. Maybe the use of the word "cultivation" is causing problems? Is meditation the only means of cultivation? Does anyone not-cultivate?  Post a Response

a recurrent force of nature Posted by Lian Dao on 6/18/2009, 3:16 pm, in reply to "An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 86.158.255.X --Previous Message-- : : For those for whom cultivation does not : address a conscious need, not cultivating is : equally a good thing. : : Steve : : : I agree with most of what you said, Steve, : but I still think........ : : Everyone is cultivating in some way or : another. Some people cultivate themselves : better by jumping right into the experience : and watching where the chips fall. Others : close themselves off by sitting alone and : emptying their minds. : : Maybe the use of the word : "cultivation" is causing problems? : Is meditation the only means of : cultivation? Does anyone not-cultivate? : : : : i do. Or rather i mean, i don't.  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Steve on 6/18/2009, 3:48 pm, in reply to "An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 68.33.168.X : Everyone is cultivating in some way or : another. Some people cultivate themselves : better by jumping right into the experience : and watching where the chips fall. Others : close themselves off by sitting alone and : emptying their minds. : : Maybe the use of the word : "cultivation" is causing problems? : Is meditation the only means of : cultivation? Does anyone not-cultivate? ------------------------------ Indeed we all have individual understandings of what 'cultivation' means and entails, Nina--and therein lies much of the 'friction' experienced on these dao-focused boards, imo. Of course I have a practice. Only dead people don't have practices. My practice, however, doesn't involve 'cultivating the dao,' as 'cultivating the dao' is--for me--a non sequitur. In the same sense that it would be a non sequitur to say that my nose cultivates my face. I understand cultivation as the proactive attempt--the effort--to further the natural processes that define and shape me--intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. As I read Laozi, I'm reminded that I'm best off when I allow nature to take its course. Best off when I stop trying to improve the universe--'universe' understood as being both internal and external to me. Steve  Post a Response

TTC 16 Posted by Lian Dao on 6/18/2009, 5:06 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 86.158.255.X : Indeed we all have individual understandings : of what 'cultivation' means and entails, : Nina--and therein lies much of the : 'friction' experienced on these dao-focused : boards, imo. : : Of course I have a practice. Only dead : people don't have practices. : : My practice, however, doesn't involve : 'cultivating the dao,' as 'cultivating the : dao' is--for me--a non sequitur. In the : same sense that it would be a non sequitur : to say that my nose cultivates my face. : : I understand cultivation as the proactive : attempt--the effort--to further the natural : processes that define and shape : me--intellectually, emotionally, and : spiritually. : : As I read Laozi, I'm reminded that I'm best : off when I allow nature to take its course. : Best off when I stop trying to improve the : universe--'universe' understood as being : both internal and external to me. : Nature is simply decay and death. i would go so far as to suggest that (I) am not nature but rather that which animates and is able to be aware, to whatever degree, of the natural processes that arise and then fall away. Identifying with the phenomena, whether you deem it internal or external to your sense of me-ness, merely means to cultivate a working knowledge of these natural processess that lend us a discursive notion of an intellectual, emotional or spiritual appreciation of the phenomena as it occurs both spatially and temporary. Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not is irrelevant, if we simply engage in an observation of the natural processes as they occur. What should rather be focused on is that which is focusing. It is a backward glance back to the source in the direction of the Tao, whose notion is return.  Post a Response

Re: TTC 16 Posted by gar on 6/18/2009, 5:27 pm, in reply to "TTC 16" 70.100.195.X --Previous Message-- : : Indeed we all have individual understandings : of what 'cultivation' means and entails, : Nina--and therein lies much of the : 'friction' experienced on these dao-focused : boards, imo. : : Of course I have a practice. Only dead : people don't have practices. : : My practice, however, doesn't involve : 'cultivating the dao,' as 'cultivating the : dao' is--for me--a non sequitur. In the : same sense that it would be a non sequitur : to say that my nose cultivates my face. : : I understand cultivation as the proactive : attempt--the effort--to further the natural : processes that define and shape : me--intellectually, emotionally, and : spiritually. : : As I read Laozi, I'm reminded that I'm best : off when I allow nature to take its course. : Best off when I stop trying to improve the : universe--'universe' understood as being : both internal and external to me. : : : : Nature is simply decay and death. i would go : so far as to suggest that (I) am not nature : but rather that which animates and is able : to be aware, to whatever degree, of the : natural processes that arise and then fall : away. : : Identifying with the phenomena, whether you : deem it internal or external to your sense : of me-ness, merely means to cultivate a : working knowledge of these natural : processess that lend us a discursive notion : of an intellectual, emotional or spiritual : appreciation of the phenomena as it occurs : both spatially and temporary. : : Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not is : irrelevant, if we simply engage in an : observation of the natural processes as they : occur. What should rather be focused on is : that which is focusing. It is a backward : glance back to the source in the direction : of the Tao, whose notion is return. : Greetings Lian Dao, Well said,old boy. It seems to me that the ability to observe the natural processes is what separates the observers. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Nina on 6/18/2009, 7:02 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 96.229.138.X : Indeed we all have individual understandings : of what 'cultivation' means and entails, : Nina--and therein lies much of the : 'friction' experienced on these dao-focused : boards, imo. : : Of course I have a practice. Only dead : people don't have practices. : : My practice, however, doesn't involve : 'cultivating the dao,' as 'cultivating the : dao' is--for me--a non sequitur. In the : same sense that it would be a non sequitur : to say that my nose cultivates my face. : : I understand cultivation as the proactive : attempt--the effort--to further the natural : processes that define and shape : me--intellectually, emotionally, and : spiritually. : : As I read Laozi, I'm reminded that I'm best : off when I allow nature to take its course. : Best off when I stop trying to improve the : universe--'universe' understood as being : both internal and external to me. : : Steve : : I see, Steve. For me, "allowing nature to take its course" requires a bit of cultivation. Let's say....... I wake up from a bad dream - a really bad dream - in a state of panic. At first I need to look around and see that I'm safe in my bed. Then I might try to psycho-analyze the dream. Eventually I'll fall back asleep. I think the whole process is part of cultivation. I'm not trying to improve the universe - just my perspective of it? I agree with you...... I don't feel a need to "cultivate Dao." That sounds like it's a plant you have to water and pull the weeds from. :-) I cultivate myself. Does that work for you?  Post a Response

Re: TTC 16 Posted by Nina on 6/18/2009, 7:21 pm, in reply to "TTC 16" 96.229.138.X : Nature is simply decay and death. i would go : so far as to suggest that (I) am not nature : but rather that which animates and is able : to be aware, to whatever degree, of the : natural processes that arise and then fall : away. : : Identifying with the phenomena, whether you : deem it internal or external to your sense : of me-ness, merely means to cultivate a : working knowledge of these natural : processess that lend us a discursive notion : of an intellectual, emotional or spiritual : appreciation of the phenomena as it occurs : both spatially and temporary. : : Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not is : irrelevant, if we simply engage in an : observation of the natural processes as they : occur. What should rather be focused on is : that which is focusing. It is a backward : glance back to the source in the direction : of the Tao, whose notion is return. : Ahhhhhh....... lovely chapter 16. I hear you, Lian Dao, about being able to observe what naturally happens around me. There's still a "me" observing it. I also think Laozi is suggesting to me that I have a delightful part in the universe around me. All I have to do is find what "naturally" suits me best and enjoy what "naturally" suits all the other 10,000 things best. But I don't cuddle up to the idea of simply being an observer. Is that what you're suggesting?  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Steve on 6/18/2009, 8:10 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 68.33.168.X : For me, "allowing nature to take its : course" requires a bit of cultivation. : : Let's say....... : I wake up from a bad dream - a really bad : dream - in a state of panic. At first I : need to look around and see that I'm safe in : my bed. Then I might try to psycho-analyze : the dream. Eventually I'll fall back : asleep. I think the whole process is part : of cultivation. I'm not trying to improve : the universe - just my perspective of it? : : I agree with you...... I don't feel a need : to "cultivate Dao." That sounds : like it's a plant you have to water and pull : the weeds from. :-) : : I cultivate myself. Does that work for you? -------------------------- 'Cultivating myself' works fine for me, Nina. :) Implicit in your bad-dream scenario, I think, is that you already knew how to deal with the episode. The instructions for dealing with it were hard-coded in your DNA, and that if you just allowed events to unfold--and avoided trying to 'control' the situation--all would be well. No master, no book, had to teach you what you already knew there.  Post a Response

Re: TTC 16 Posted by Steve on 6/18/2009, 8:45 pm, in reply to "TTC 16" 68.33.168.X : Nature is simply decay and death. i would go : so far as to suggest that (I) am not nature : but rather that which animates and is able : to be aware, to whatever degree, of the : natural processes that arise and then fall : away. : : Identifying with the phenomena, whether you : deem it internal or external to your sense : of me-ness, merely means to cultivate a : working knowledge of these natural : processess that lend us a discursive notion : of an intellectual, emotional or spiritual : appreciation of the phenomena as it occurs : both spatially and temporary. : : Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not is : irrelevant, if we simply engage in an : observation of the natural processes as they : occur. What should rather be focused on is : that which is focusing. It is a backward : glance back to the source in the direction : of the Tao, whose notion is return. --------------------------- "Nature is simply decay and death." Some Buddhist schools maintain that, yes, but not all. Some point to a joyous cosmology, where nature simultaneously creates and destroys. Gives, and takes away. In the same moment. Focusing on the 'decay' and 'taking away' parts leads, logically, to a desire for release. Focusing on the bigger picture can lead to underlying contentment in the moment, whatever the moment brings. "Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not is irrelevant, if we simply engage in an observation of the natural processes as they occur. What should rather be focused on is that which is focusing. It is a backward glance back to the source in the direction of the Tao, whose notion is return." Absolutely. I'd suggest that the whole of wisdom consists in the ability to observe, and that the ability comes pre-installed in the human merchandise.  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Butcho on 6/18/2009, 9:21 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 162.39.190.X --Previous Message-- : For me, "allowing nature to take its : course" requires a bit of cultivation. : : Let's say....... : I wake up from a bad dream - a really bad : dream - in a state of panic. At first I : need to look around and see that I'm safe in : my bed. Then I might try to psycho-analyze : the dream. Eventually I'll fall back : asleep. I think the whole process is part : of cultivation. I'm not trying to improve : the universe - just my perspective of it? : : I agree with you...... I don't feel a need : to "cultivate Dao." That sounds : like it's a plant you have to water and pull : the weeds from. :-) : : I cultivate myself. Does that work for you? : : -------------------------- : : 'Cultivating myself' works fine for me, : Nina. :) : : Implicit in your bad-dream scenario, I : think, is that you already knew how to deal : with the episode. The instructions for : dealing with it were hard-coded in your DNA, : and that if you just allowed events to : unfold--and avoided trying to 'control' the : situation--all would be well. : : No master, no book, had to teach you what : you already knew there. : : Steve, Fact is most people are trying to control the situation. Cultivation is about letting go and going with the flow, not about gaining control over natural processes. Most people have lost the natural deep breaths they took when they were a small child. Most people are shallow breathers. To learn to breathe from the heals takes practice. Takes conscious effort. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Steve on 6/19/2009, 8:38 am, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 68.33.168.X : No master, no book, had to teach you what : you already knew there. ----------------------- : Steve, : : Fact is most people are trying to control : the situation. Cultivation is about letting : go and going with the flow, not about : gaining control over natural processes. : : Most people have lost the natural deep : breaths they took when they were a small : child. Most people are shallow breathers. To : learn to breathe from the heals takes : practice. Takes conscious effort. : : Butcho ----------------------- You had to learn how to breathe, Butcho? You needed a master to show you how? Not me. I find what Laozi found--that sometimes breathing is easy, sometimes not. Sometimes things go well, sometimes they don't. Sometimes I'm wise, sometimes I'm foolish. The arrangement seems just peachy to me. Your breathing practice makes you feel healthier and wiser, and that's reason enough to continue doing it. I exercise everyday, because that makes me feel better too. My breathing can take care of itself.  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Butcho on 6/19/2009, 10:27 am, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 71.30.136.X --Previous Message-- : No master, no book, had to teach you what : you already knew there. : : ----------------------- : : Steve, : : Fact is most people are trying to control : the situation. Cultivation is about letting : go and going with the flow, not about : gaining control over natural processes. : : Most people have lost the natural deep : breaths they took when they were a small : child. Most people are shallow breathers. To : learn to breathe from the heals takes : practice. Takes conscious effort. : : Butcho : : ----------------------- : : You had to learn how to breathe, Butcho? : You needed a master to show you how? : : Not me. I find what Laozi found--that : sometimes breathing is easy, sometimes not. : Sometimes things go well, sometimes they : don't. Sometimes I'm wise, sometimes I'm : foolish. The arrangement seems just peachy : to me. : : Your breathing practice makes you feel : healthier and wiser, and that's reason : enough to continue doing it. I exercise : everyday, because that makes me feel better : too. : : My breathing can take care of itself. : : : Steve, Spoken like a man born with his head up his ass. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Steve on 6/19/2009, 1:32 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 68.33.168.X : Steve, : : Spoken like a man born with his head up his : ass. : : Butcho -------------------------------- Them the words of one who cultivates the dao, Butchie Boy? Sounds to me like your breathing exercises have been a total and unmitigated failure. Scientology up next for you, perhaps?  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Butcho on 6/19/2009, 2:34 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 71.30.136.X --Previous Message-- : Steve, : : Spoken like a man born with his head up his : ass. : : Butcho : : -------------------------------- : : Them the words of one who cultivates the : dao, Butchie Boy? Sounds to me like your : breathing exercises have been a total and : unmitigated failure. : : Scientology up next for you, perhaps? : : Steve, Spoken like a man with no intention of trying to reach a compromise. Such a man clearly has his head up his ass. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Steve on 6/19/2009, 3:12 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 68.33.168.X : Steve, : : Spoken like a man with no intention of : trying to reach a compromise. : : Such a man clearly has his head up his ass. : : Butcho --------------------------- Listen, Butcho...my anatomy is such that it's physiologically impossible to get my head up my ass. Trust me on this one. Do I have to draw pictures? Can't we maintain an atmosphere here in Tao Speaks in which josef feels safe enough to post? And why do we need to reach a 'compromise'? What's wrong with the human instinct to protect one's turf? It's served the species very very well over these many years. Steve  Post a Response

secret of the flower Posted by Lian Dao on 6/19/2009, 3:47 pm, in reply to "Re: TTC 16" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : Nature is simply decay and death. i would go : so far as to suggest that (I) am not nature : but rather that which animates and is able : to be aware, to whatever degree, of the : natural processes that arise and then fall : away. : : Identifying with the phenomena, whether you : deem it internal or external to your sense : of me-ness, merely means to cultivate a : working knowledge of these natural : processess that lend us a discursive notion : of an intellectual, emotional or spiritual : appreciation of the phenomena as it occurs : both spatially and temporary. : : Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not is : irrelevant, if we simply engage in an : observation of the natural processes as they : occur. What should rather be focused on is : that which is focusing. It is a backward : glance back to the source in the direction : of the Tao, whose motion is return. : : --------------------------- : : "Nature is simply decay and : death." : : Some Buddhist schools maintain that, yes, : but not all. Some point to a joyous : cosmology, where nature simultaneously : creates and destroys. Gives, and takes : away. In the same moment. Your 'nature' sounds a bit like Butch's 'god' there old bean. And it isn't buddhism i'm spouting there, it's fact. The ten-thousand 'things' are subject to decay and death simply by the virtue of being born. You can't escape from that. No matter how hard you try. 'Nature' as co-dependently originated material (ie born;created) is subject to these conditions. That it is given form and animated from a source that invariably identifies with ( and is therefore able to be aware of )the process it initiates, would indicate that the uncreate and the unborn source is not subject to the same conditions. : : Focusing on the 'decay' and 'taking away' : parts leads, logically, to a desire for : release. Focusing on the bigger picture can : lead to underlying contentment in the : moment, whatever the moment brings. The only thing we can actually release from is that which we (I) am not. Therein lies contentment. The source/mind/tao is not subject to temporary conditions such as time and decay, and therefore is only 'found' in the 'moment'. : : "Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not : is irrelevant, if we simply engage in an : observation of the natural processes as they : occur. What should rather be focused on is : that which is focusing. It is a backward : glance back to the source in the direction : of the Tao, whose notion is return." : : Absolutely. : : I'd suggest that the whole of wisdom : consists in the ability to observe, and that : the ability comes pre-installed in the human : merchandise. : Observation, discursive or otherwise, is a function and indeed comes installed in the psycho-physical complex to filter sensate reality. As with most functions it is there to be utilised. Whether you deem facts as wisdom is a matter of opinion. Or is it?  Post a Response

subject to conditions Posted by Lian Dao on 6/19/2009, 3:55 pm, in reply to "Re: TTC 16" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : Nature is simply decay and death. i would go : so far as to suggest that (I) am not nature : but rather that which animates and is able : to be aware, to whatever degree, of the : natural processes that arise and then fall : away. : : Identifying with the phenomena, whether you : deem it internal or external to your sense : of me-ness, merely means to cultivate a : working knowledge of these natural : processess that lend us a discursive notion : of an intellectual, emotional or spiritual : appreciation of the phenomena as it occurs : both spatially and temporary. : : Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not is : irrelevant, if we simply engage in an : observation of the natural processes as they : occur. What should rather be focused on is : that which is focusing. It is a backward : glance back to the source in the direction : of the Tao, whose notion is return. : : : Ahhhhhh....... lovely chapter 16. : : I hear you, Lian Dao, about being able to : observe what naturally happens around me. : There's still a "me" observing it. Your 'me' ( and 'mine') is simply the function of observation aware that it is observing. No big deal. Or as big a deal as you choose to make it actually. : : I also think Laozi is suggesting to me that : I have a delightful part in the universe : around me. All I have to do is find what : "naturally" suits me best and : enjoy what "naturally" suits all : the other 10,000 things best. It's your semblance of selfhood, your ego that is suggesting that. Why not choose to say that for yourself rather than blame Lao Tzu? : : But I don't cuddle up to the idea of simply : being an observer. Is that what you're : suggesting? : 'You' and 'me' are observers. (I) am not.  Post a Response

reason is treason Posted by Lian Dao on 6/19/2009, 4:02 pm, in reply to "Re: TTC 16" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Indeed we all have individual understandings : of what 'cultivation' means and entails, : Nina--and therein lies much of the : 'friction' experienced on these dao-focused : boards, imo. : : Of course I have a practice. Only dead : people don't have practices. : : My practice, however, doesn't involve : 'cultivating the dao,' as 'cultivating the : dao' is--for me--a non sequitur. In the : same sense that it would be a non sequitur : to say that my nose cultivates my face. : : I understand cultivation as the proactive : attempt--the effort--to further the natural : processes that define and shape : me--intellectually, emotionally, and : spiritually. : : As I read Laozi, I'm reminded that I'm best : off when I allow nature to take its course. : Best off when I stop trying to improve the : universe--'universe' understood as being : both internal and external to me. : : : : Nature is simply decay and death. i would go : so far as to suggest that (I) am not nature : but rather that which animates and is able : to be aware, to whatever degree, of the : natural processes that arise and then fall : away. : : Identifying with the phenomena, whether you : deem it internal or external to your sense : of me-ness, merely means to cultivate a : working knowledge of these natural : processess that lend us a discursive notion : of an intellectual, emotional or spiritual : appreciation of the phenomena as it occurs : both spatially and temporary. : : Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not is : irrelevant, if we simply engage in an : observation of the natural processes as they : occur. What should rather be focused on is : that which is focusing. It is a backward : glance back to the source in the direction : of the Tao, whose notion is return. : : : Greetings Lian Dao, : : Well said,old boy. : : It seems to me that the ability to observe : the natural processes is what separates the : observers. : Or even what unites them (us)?  Post a Response

Re: secret of the flower Posted by Steve on 6/19/2009, 4:38 pm, in reply to "secret of the flower" 68.33.168.X : Your 'nature' sounds a bit like : Butch's 'god' :there old bean. And it isn't : buddhism i'm spouting there, it's fact. The : ten-thousand 'things' are subject to decay and : death simply by the virtue of being born. You : can't escape from that. No matter how hard you : try." Yes, but you made the statement "Nature is simply decay and death," and that's what I was responding to. Death and dying and all the other icky things of the world can be seen in a larger perspective whereby we wouldn't know life and living and growing and expansiveness without knowing their apparent opposites. For the life of me I can't find the fundamental (emphasis on 'fundamental') problem that cultivation proposes to address. *** : 'Nature' as co-dependently originated material : (ie born;created) is subject to these : conditions. That it is given form and animated : from a source that invariably identifies with : ( and is therefore able to be aware of ) the : process it initiates, would indicate that the : uncreate and the unborn source is not subject : to the same conditions. Too dense for me. Unable to respond. *** : The only thing we can actually release from is : that which we (I) am not. Therein lies : contentment. The source/mind/tao is not : subject to temporary conditions such as time : and decay, and therefore is only 'found' in : the 'moment'. I don't find anything or anywhere that we are not. Where could we possibly be that would not be source/mind/tao? Much agony has flowed from the teaching that there is somewhere to be where we are not.  Post a Response

Re: subject to conditions Posted by Nina on 6/19/2009, 6:36 pm, in reply to "subject to conditions" 96.229.138.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Nature is simply decay and death. i would go : so far as to suggest that (I) am not nature : but rather that which animates and is able : to be aware, to whatever degree, of the : natural processes that arise and then fall : away. : : Identifying with the phenomena, whether you : deem it internal or external to your sense : of me-ness, merely means to cultivate a : working knowledge of these natural : processess that lend us a discursive notion : of an intellectual, emotional or spiritual : appreciation of the phenomena as it occurs : both spatially and temporary. : : Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not is : irrelevant, if we simply engage in an : observation of the natural processes as they : occur. What should rather be focused on is : that which is focusing. It is a backward : glance back to the source in the direction : of the Tao, whose notion is return. : : : Ahhhhhh....... lovely chapter 16. : : I hear you, Lian Dao, about being able to : observe what naturally happens around me. : There's still a "me" observing it. : : Your 'me' ( and 'mine') is simply the : function of observation aware that it is : observing. No big deal. Or as big a deal as : you choose to make it actually. : : : I also think Laozi is suggesting to me that : I have a delightful part in the universe : around me. All I have to do is find what : "naturally" suits me best and : enjoy what "naturally" suits all : the other 10,000 things best. : : It's your semblance of selfhood, your ego : that is suggesting that. Why not choose to : say that for yourself rather than blame Lao : Tzu? : Hey....... You're the one who brought up Laozi's chapter 16, then went on to say a lot of things about it using the terms "we" and "us". At least I kept my response to what "I" and "me" got out of it. I think Freud killed a lot of spontaneity when he "discovered" the ego. Too many people wondering if what they're doing is coming from their ego or not. If it makes me happy and sings to my heart, what difference does it make where it comes from? P.S. If you'll note, I used the terms "I" and "my" above. :-)  Post a Response

An Unforced Scream Has Occurred. Posted by Nina on 6/19/2009, 6:50 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 96.229.138.X : 'Cultivating myself' works fine for me, : Nina. :) : : Implicit in your bad-dream scenario, I : think, is that you already knew how to deal : with the episode. The instructions for : dealing with it were hard-coded in your DNA, : and that if you just allowed events to : unfold--and avoided trying to 'control' the : situation--all would be well. : : No master, no book, had to teach you what : you already knew there. : : If I already knew how to deal with them, Steve, then I wouldn't have screamed like a baby when I had nightmares as a kid. It took a long time for my adult mind to see them for what they are. When my favorite actress as a kid, Elizabeth Taylor, died in a movie we went to see...... I cried my eyes out. My dad told me she wasn't really dead - that it was just a movie. I wasn't trying to control anything. I just needed someone who knew more than I did to inform me. Sometimes we do need teachers, and to dismiss them out of hand seems very weird to me. Through cultivation you and I can learn how to separate the chaff from the grain? ......Sorry for interrupting your little tete-a-tete with Butch. :-)  Post a Response

Secret of Happiness Posted by Nina on 6/19/2009, 7:09 pm, in reply to "secret of the flower" 96.229.138.X : The : ten-thousand 'things' are subject to decay : and death simply by the virtue of being : born. You can't escape from that. No matter : how hard you try. : : The only thing we can actually release from : is that which we (I) am not. Therein lies : contentment. The source/mind/tao is not : subject to temporary conditions such as time : and decay, and therefore is only 'found' in : the 'moment'. : : I don't get it. Why bother thinking about death and decaying? Sure, it's gonna happen eventually to all of us and all the 10,000 things. When you look at a beautiful blooming flower or a butterfly, do you not enjoy the beauty of it because you think of its decaying and death? Granted...... I have a pretty simple mind most of the time and I probably lose the "deeper" meaning of all this spirichool stuff, but....... My happiness (no need for contentment) isn't based on searching for something that isn't included in the temporary. Isn't each moment temporary? Do with it what you will. Smiles seem to overcome me. Unforced.  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Butcho on 6/19/2009, 9:16 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 71.30.136.X --Previous Message-- : Steve, : : Spoken like a man with no intention of : trying to reach a compromise. : : Such a man clearly has his head up his ass. : : Butcho : : --------------------------- : : Listen, Butcho...my anatomy is such that : it's physiologically impossible to get my : head up my ass. Trust me on this one. : : Do I have to draw pictures? Can't we : maintain an atmosphere here in Tao Speaks in : which josef feels safe enough to post? : : And why do we need to reach a 'compromise'? : : What's wrong with the human instinct to : protect one's turf? It's served the species : very very well over these many years. : : Steve : : Steve, Ok, I can admit that you don't presently have your head up your ass because you tried and couldn't do it. But then I was speaking figuratively and not literally. So I take back my take back. You may as well have your head up your ass. But then again that you didn't force it was very Taoist of you. The world is doing just fine without reaching any compromises. Right! Butcho  Post a Response

Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred. Posted by Steve on 6/19/2009, 10:03 pm, in reply to "Re: An Unforced Response Has Occurred." 68.33.168.X : The world is doing just fine without : reaching any compromises. Right! ---------------------- I don't understand what 'compromise' means in the context of our discussions in Tao Speaks. Are you prepared to modify or abandon your beliefs?  Post a Response

Re: secret of the flower Posted by ren ying on 6/20/2009, 2:12 am, in reply to "secret of the flower" 85.181.46.X : : : --Previous Message-- : : Nature is simply decay and death. : Why do you forget birth and growing? ---- Nature is change chinese wisdom expressed in yijing great sentence: qian: tian xing jian Nature goes left goes right.. builds thus the world  Post a Response

nobody likes a smartarse Posted by Lian Dao on 6/21/2009, 6:37 am, in reply to "Re: subject to conditions" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Nature is simply decay and death. i would go : so far as to suggest that (I) am not nature : but rather that which animates and is able : to be aware, to whatever degree, of the : natural processes that arise and then fall : away. : : Identifying with the phenomena, whether you : deem it internal or external to your sense : of me-ness, merely means to cultivate a : working knowledge of these natural : processess that lend us a discursive notion : of an intellectual, emotional or spiritual : appreciation of the phenomena as it occurs : both spatially and temporary. : : Whether or not one 'cultivates' or not is : irrelevant, if we simply engage in an : observation of the natural processes as they : occur. What should rather be focused on is : that which is focusing. It is a backward : glance back to the source in the direction : of the Tao, whose notion is return. : : : Ahhhhhh....... lovely chapter 16. : : I hear you, Lian Dao, about being able to : observe what naturally happens around me. : There's still a "me" observing it. : : Your 'me' ( and 'mine') is simply the : function of observation aware that it is : observing. No big deal. Or as big a deal as : you choose to make it actually. : : : I also think Laozi is suggesting to me that : I have a delightful part in the universe : around me. All I have to do is find what : "naturally" suits me best and : enjoy what "naturally" suits all : the other 10,000 things best. : : It's your semblance of selfhood, your ego : that is suggesting that. Why not choose to : say that for yourself rather than blame Lao : Tzu? : : : Hey....... You're the one who brought up : Laozi's chapter 16, then went on to say a : lot of things about it using the terms : "we" and "us". At least : I kept my response to what "I" and : "me" got out of it. : : I think Freud killed a lot of spontaneity : when he "discovered" the ego. Too : many people wondering if what they're doing : is coming from their ego or not. If it : makes me happy and sings to my heart, what : difference does it make where it comes from? : : P.S. If you'll note, I used the terms : "I" and "my" above. :-) : : : :-S  Post a Response

Re: secret of the flower Posted by Lian Dao on 6/21/2009, 6:46 am, in reply to "Re: secret of the flower" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : Your 'nature' sounds a bit like : Butch's 'god' :there old bean. And it isn't : buddhism i'm spouting there, it's fact. The : ten-thousand 'things' are subject to decay : and : death simply by the virtue of being born. : You : can't escape from that. No matter how hard : you : try." : : Yes, but you made the statement "Nature : is simply decay and death," and that's : what I was responding to. : : Death and dying and all the other icky : things of the world can be seen in a larger : perspective whereby we wouldn't know life : and living and growing and expansiveness : without knowing their apparent opposites. Okay, i'll begrudgingly grant you that , but these 'apparent opposites' are as much a part of the processes that you describe, and the inevitable reality of all phenomena. My point being, is that there is inherent in these phenomena a source that is not governed by the natural processes of birth, decay and death. : : For the life of me I can't find the : fundamental (emphasis on 'fundamental') : problem that cultivation proposes to : address. Maybe not but does that not mean that others do find that 'problem'? : : *** : : 'Nature' as co-dependently originated : material : (ie born;created) is subject to these : conditions. That it is given form and : animated : from a source that invariably identifies : with : ( and is therefore able to be aware of ) the : process it initiates, would indicate that : the : uncreate and the unborn source is not : subject : to the same conditions. : : Too dense for me. Unable to respond. : That's cool. Dig my other shit above? : : The only thing we can actually release from : is : that which we (I) am not. Therein lies : contentment. The source/mind/tao is not : subject to temporary conditions such as time : and decay, and therefore is only 'found' in : the 'moment'. : : I don't find anything or anywhere that we : are not. Really? Or are you just saying that? : : Where could we possibly be that would not : be source/mind/tao? : : Much agony has flowed from the teaching that : there is somewhere to be where we are not. : : Indeed, and i would never dispute that. : :  Post a Response

Re: Secret of Happiness Posted by Lian Dao on 6/21/2009, 6:51 am, in reply to "Secret of Happiness" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : The : ten-thousand 'things' are subject to decay : and death simply by the virtue of being : born. You can't escape from that. No matter : how hard you try. : : The only thing we can actually release from : is that which we (I) am not. Therein lies : contentment. The source/mind/tao is not : subject to temporary conditions such as time : and decay, and therefore is only 'found' in : the 'moment'. : : : : I don't get it. Why bother thinking about : death and decaying? Sure, it's gonna happen : eventually to all of us and all the 10,000 : things. : : When you look at a beautiful blooming flower : or a butterfly, do you not enjoy the beauty : of it because you think of its decaying and : death? : : Granted...... I have a pretty simple mind : most of the time and I probably lose the : "deeper" meaning of all this : spirichool stuff, but....... : My happiness (no need for contentment) isn't : based on searching for something that isn't : included in the temporary. : Isn't each moment temporary? : Do with it what you will. : Smiles seem to overcome me. : Unforced. : : : ####'s sake!!! i'm not thinking about death and decay. Why are you trying to portray me as some maudlin goth adolescent with black fingernails? i'm just saying that all phenomena are subject to certain conditions that make them temporary. Wouldn't you rather have non-temporal bliss and joy that is innate to the mind and accessible to all as our noble birth-right? Why accept second best? Why make do?  Post a Response

Re: secret of the flower Posted by Lian Dao on 6/21/2009, 6:56 am, in reply to "Re: secret of the flower" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : : : : --Previous Message-- : : Nature is simply decay and death. : : : : : Why do you forget birth and growing? : : ---- : : Nature is change : : chinese wisdom expressed in yijing : : great sentence: : : qian: : tian xing jian : : Nature goes left goes right.. : builds thus the world : : My humble apologies ren ying. i was simply attempting, and failing, to point out that indeed, as you say, nature is change and in a constant state of flux. My point was that the mind (citta), buddha-nature, Tao is the constant source that gives rise to and by which all phenomana occur. 'Mind precedes all phenomena' Dhammapada 1.  Post a Response

Re: Secret of Happiness Posted by Nina on 6/21/2009, 6:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Secret of Happiness" 96.229.138.X : : ####'s sake!!! i'm not thinking about death : and decay. Why are you trying to portray me : as some maudlin goth adolescent with black : fingernails? : : i'm just saying that all phenomena are : subject to certain conditions that make them : temporary. Wouldn't you rather have : non-temporal bliss and joy that is innate to : the mind and accessible to all as our noble : birth-right? : : Why accept second best? Why make do? : I don't think I'm "accepting second best", Lian Dao. I like most things being temporary - just as they are. Accepting the temporariness of stuff makes me much happier. It's only when I didn't want to let go of something that I felt all sorts of angst. Why would I want to look for something that might not be there when I already have such precious and beautiful things in my hand right now? When it's gone...... It's gone. And it's nice to feel a bit of the sting when something I feel is precious is taken away from me...... Reminds me I'm human and still of this world. Are you trying to lose the enjoyment of what's temporary?  Post a Response

Re: Secret of my success Posted by Lian Dao on 6/22/2009, 2:43 pm, in reply to "Re: Secret of Happiness" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : : ####'s sake!!! i'm not thinking about death : and decay. Why are you trying to portray me : as some maudlin goth adolescent with black : fingernails? : : i'm just saying that all phenomena are : subject to certain conditions that make them : temporary. Wouldn't you rather have : non-temporal bliss and joy that is innate to : the mind and accessible to all as our noble : birth-right? : : Why accept second best? Why make do? : : : : I don't think I'm "accepting second : best", Lian Dao. I like most things : being temporary - just as they are. : Accepting the temporariness of stuff makes : me much happier. It's only when I didn't : want to let go of something that I felt all : sorts of angst. : : Why would I want to look for something that : might not be there when I already have such : precious and beautiful things in my hand : right now? When it's gone...... It's gone. : And it's nice to feel a bit of the sting : when something I feel is precious is taken : away from me...... Reminds me I'm human and : still of this world. : : Are you trying to lose the enjoyment of : what's temporary? : Maybe i am. As the enjoyment is entirely bound up in the temporal the former depends entirely upon the latter. Like being bound to a rack and having ones gizzards ripped out and devoured daily by carrion, when the ordeal is over, then the enjoyment of relief may be savoured. Personally, i would rather boot the doors of the heavens in and steal its thunder. But maybe that's just me.  Post a Response

Re: Secret of my success Posted by Nina on 6/22/2009, 7:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Secret of my success" 96.229.138.X : Are you trying to lose the enjoyment of : what's temporary? : : : Maybe i am. As the enjoyment is entirely : bound up in the temporal the former depends : entirely upon the latter. : : Like being bound to a rack and having ones : gizzards ripped out and devoured daily by : carrion, when the ordeal is over, then the : enjoyment of relief may be savoured. : : Personally, i would rather boot the doors of : the heavens in and steal its thunder. : : But maybe that's just me. : Ummmmm........ Isn't thunder of this earth? :-) Sorry for being a smartarse. That's a pretty grim analogy, Lian Dao. I guess I'd best leave it alone........ And hope you boot open the doors of the heavens!  Post a Response

helter skelter Posted by Lian Dao on 6/23/2009, 10:24 am, in reply to "Re: Secret of my success" 86.152.209.X --Previous Message-- : : Are you trying to lose the enjoyment of : what's temporary? : : : Maybe i am. As the enjoyment is entirely : bound up in the temporal the former depends : entirely upon the latter. : : Like being bound to a rack and having ones : gizzards ripped out and devoured daily by : carrion, when the ordeal is over, then the : enjoyment of relief may be savoured. : : Personally, i would rather boot the doors of : the heavens in and steal its thunder. : : But maybe that's just me. : : : : Ummmmm........ Isn't thunder of this earth? : :-) : : Sorry for being a smartarse. : : That's a pretty grim analogy, Lian Dao. I : guess I'd best leave it alone........ : : And hope you boot open the doors of the : heavens! : : : : But Nina, i thought T.S. used to be a Tao-focused forum? Surely you can't have the yin without the yang? Isn't that what you were saying earlier? The dead attract carrion. Apparently, the living do not......  Post a Response

Re: helter skelter Posted by Nina on 6/23/2009, 8:16 pm, in reply to "helter skelter" 96.229.138.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Are you trying to lose the enjoyment of : what's temporary? : : : Maybe i am. As the enjoyment is entirely : bound up in the temporal the former depends : entirely upon the latter. : : Like being bound to a rack and having ones : gizzards ripped out and devoured daily by : carrion, when the ordeal is over, then the : enjoyment of relief may be savoured. : : Personally, i would rather boot the doors of : the heavens in and steal its thunder. : : But maybe that's just me. : : : : Ummmmm........ Isn't thunder of this earth? : :-) : : Sorry for being a smartarse. : : That's a pretty grim analogy, Lian Dao. I : guess I'd best leave it alone........ : : And hope you boot open the doors of the : heavens! : : : : : : But Nina, i thought T.S. used to be a : Tao-focused forum? Surely you can't have the : yin without the yang? Isn't that what you : were saying earlier? : : The dead attract carrion. Apparently, the : living do not...... : I don't know what T.S. is any more, Lian Dao. It seems ZenTao has abandoned it. Maybe it's whatever anyone here chooses for it to be? What I might have said earlier can change in the blink of an eye to something else. I'm not reliable. If yin and yang change from one into the other without anything being done about it, why even use those terms? As Zhuangzi pointed out....... does it matter what feed on you when you're dead? Better to have something feed on you than being sealed up in a box. I'm alive. Confucius said we can't even figure out what's going on when we're alive..... why waste time thinking about what happens when we're dead? Let's dance....... and have fun. What we've got may be all there is. Not a bad prospect IMO. 'Scuse my forthrightness......... and my inconsistency.  Post a Response

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