[ Tao Speaks ]

"Chop wood, carry water." Posted by Butcho on 4/8/2009, 9:20 am 216.96.14.X "For adepts the principle of maintaining concentration and insight is not a matter of effort; it is spontaneous and effortless, with no particular time frame. When seeing and hearing, they are just so; when dressing and eating, they are just so; when conversing with people, they are just so; whatever they are doing; walking, standing, sitting, reclining, speaking, silent, rejoicing, at all times and in everything they are just so. Like empty boats riding the waves, going along with the high and the low, like a river winding through the mountains, curving at curves and straight at straits, without minding any state of mind, buoyantly going along with nature today, buoyantly going along with nature tomorrow, adapting to all circumstances without inhibition or impediment, neither stopping nor fostering good or evil, simple and straightforward, without artificiality, perception normal. Such is the mind of the person who clearly sees the Buddha way." Master Chinul (1158-1210) Dailyzen.com  Post a Response

Re: "Chop wood, carry water." Posted by Wayne L. on 4/8/2009, 10:48 am, in reply to ""Chop wood, carry water."" 76.87.4.X All well and Good, the question being how to become adept? For the adept it is all so very simple, chop wood, carry water. You can only become adept by fostering Absolutely Good Knowledge (of Reality) and Rejecting Absolutely Bad Knowledge (of Reality, the Knowledge of Good and Evil); the adept not mistakenly taking Absolutely Bad Knowledge (of Reality, the Knowledge of Good and Evil) to be Absolutely Good Knowledge (of Reality). One can not be an adept by taking Absolutely Bad Knowledge (of Reality, The Knowledge of Good and Evil) to be Absolutely Good Knowledge. Absolutely Bad Knowledge, the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Absolutely Bad Knowledge being the Knowledge of Nothing, being an Illusion of Reality; An Illusion not existing unless being taken to be a Reality. Into the light, the Sun is the Light unto the World of Reality, Reality as seen in the Light of Day. Ye, Amen, Ra! --Previous Message-- : "For adepts the principle of maintaining : concentration and insight is not a matter of : effort; it is spontaneous and effortless, : with no particular time frame. When seeing : and hearing, they are just so; when dressing : and eating, they are just so; when : conversing with people, they are just so; : whatever they are doing; walking, standing, : sitting, reclining, speaking, silent, : rejoicing, at all times and in everything : they are just so. : : Like empty boats riding the waves, going : along with the high and the low, like a : river winding through the mountains, curving : at curves and straight at straits, without : minding any state of mind, buoyantly going : along with nature today, buoyantly going : along with nature tomorrow, adapting to all : circumstances without inhibition or : impediment, neither stopping nor fostering : good or evil, simple and straightforward, : without artificiality, perception normal. : Such is the mind of the person who clearly : sees the Buddha way." : : Master Chinul (1158-1210) : : Dailyzen.com :  Post a Response

Dull the senses, Un-focus the mind Posted by gar on 4/8/2009, 12:25 pm, in reply to ""Chop wood, carry water."" 70.100.196.X Greetings Butcho, Here we go with the words again. It seems to me when, we are able to not focus on this and that, awareness is experienced with completeness. Look not for the star in heaven, but heaven in the star. in peace, gar (1949- 20??) --Previous Message-- : "For adepts the principle of maintaining : concentration and insight is not a matter of : effort; it is spontaneous and effortless, : with no particular time frame. When seeing : and hearing, they are just so; when dressing : and eating, they are just so; when : conversing with people, they are just so; : whatever they are doing; walking, standing, : sitting, reclining, speaking, silent, : rejoicing, at all times and in everything : they are just so. : : Like empty boats riding the waves, going : along with the high and the low, like a : river winding through the mountains, curving : at curves and straight at straits, without : minding any state of mind, buoyantly going : along with nature today, buoyantly going : along with nature tomorrow, adapting to all : circumstances without inhibition or : impediment, neither stopping nor fostering : good or evil, simple and straightforward, : without artificiality, perception normal. : Such is the mind of the person who clearly : sees the Buddha way." : : Master Chinul (1158-1210) : : Dailyzen.com :  Post a Response

Re: "Chop wood, carry water." Posted by josef on 4/8/2009, 1:07 pm, in reply to ""Chop wood, carry water."" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : "For adepts the principle of maintaining : concentration and insight is not a matter of : effort; it is spontaneous and effortless, : with no particular time frame. When seeing : and hearing, they are just so; when dressing : and eating, they are just so; when : conversing with people, they are just so; : whatever they are doing; walking, standing, : sitting, reclining, speaking, silent, : rejoicing, at all times and in everything : they are just so. : : Like empty boats riding the waves, going : along with the high and the low, like a : river winding through the mountains, curving : at curves and straight at straits, without : minding any state of mind, buoyantly going : along with nature today, buoyantly going : along with nature tomorrow, adapting to all : circumstances without inhibition or : impediment, neither stopping nor fostering : good or evil, simple and straightforward, : without artificiality, perception normal. : Such is the mind of the person who clearly : sees the Buddha way." : : Master Chinul (1158-1210) : : Dailyzen.com : Butch, excellent words those are...beautifully describing living the Way. And I agree with gar that the peaceful mind is one of undifferentiated attention, not caught on anything, flowing with what is, as it is.  Post a Response

Re: "Chop wood, carry water." Posted by Butcho on 4/8/2009, 10:17 pm, in reply to "Re: "Chop wood, carry water."" 216.96.14.X --Previous Message-- : All well and Good, the question being how to : become adept? : : For the adept it is all so very simple, chop : wood, : carry water. : : You can only become adept by fostering : Absolutely Good Knowledge (of Reality) and : Rejecting Absolutely Bad Knowledge (of : Reality, the Knowledge of Good and Evil); : the adept not mistakenly taking Absolutely : Bad Knowledge (of Reality, the Knowledge of : Good and Evil) to be Absolutely Good : Knowledge (of Reality). : : One can not be an adept by taking Absolutely : Bad Knowledge (of Reality, The Knowledge of : Good and Evil) to be Absolutely Good : Knowledge. : : Absolutely Bad Knowledge, the Knowledge of : Good and Evil, Absolutely Bad Knowledge : being the Knowledge of Nothing, being an : Illusion of Reality; An Illusion not : existing unless being taken to be a Reality. : : Into the light, the Sun is the Light unto : the World of Reality, Reality as : seen in the Light of Day. : : Ye, Amen, Ra! : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : "For adepts the principle of : maintaining : concentration and insight is not a matter of : effort; it is spontaneous and effortless, : with no particular time frame. When seeing : and hearing, they are just so; when dressing : and eating, they are just so; when : conversing with people, they are just so; : whatever they are doing; walking, standing, : sitting, reclining, speaking, silent, : rejoicing, at all times and in everything : they are just so. : : Like empty boats riding the waves, going : along with the high and the low, like a : river winding through the mountains, curving : at curves and straight at straits, without : minding any state of mind, buoyantly going : along with nature today, buoyantly going : along with nature tomorrow, adapting to all : circumstances without inhibition or : impediment, neither stopping nor fostering : good or evil, simple and straightforward, : without artificiality, perception normal. : Such is the mind of the person who clearly : sees the Buddha way." : : Master Chinul (1158-1210) : : Dailyzen.com : : Wayne, I agree with your obervation. The rub is how does one become an Adept that can live so sagelike a life. How indeed? Books have been written trying to answer that question. Many books. Too many books. With all the books and masters and such the Seven Deadly sins are still alive and well in our so-called modern enlightened world. Pride, Envy, and Wrath being the more harmful in my opinion. But the sage says we can be free of these vices, these deadly sins. Some would have us do a whole laundry list of things to become free. Some would have us do nothing at all. Then there are those that recommend some sort of middle way between the do everythings and the do nothings. The middle ways appeal to me. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: Dull the senses, Un-focus the mind Posted by Butcho on 4/8/2009, 10:55 pm, in reply to "Dull the senses, Un-focus the mind" 216.96.14.X --Previous Message-- : Greetings Butcho, : : Here we go with the words again. : : It seems to me when, we are able to not : focus on this and that, awareness is : experienced with completeness. : : Look not for the star in heaven, but heaven : in the star. : : in peace, : gar (1949- 20??) : : --Previous Message-- : "For adepts the principle of : maintaining : concentration and insight is not a matter of : effort; it is spontaneous and effortless, : with no particular time frame. When seeing : and hearing, they are just so; when dressing : and eating, they are just so; when : conversing with people, they are just so; : whatever they are doing; walking, standing, : sitting, reclining, speaking, silent, : rejoicing, at all times and in everything : they are just so. : : Like empty boats riding the waves, going : along with the high and the low, like a : river winding through the mountains, curving : at curves and straight at straits, without : minding any state of mind, buoyantly going : along with nature today, buoyantly going : along with nature tomorrow, adapting to all : circumstances without inhibition or : impediment, neither stopping nor fostering : good or evil, simple and straightforward, : without artificiality, perception normal. : Such is the mind of the person who clearly : sees the Buddha way." : : Master Chinul (1158-1210) : : Dailyzen.com : : : gar, The left brain has a tendency to be narrowly focused. The right wide. Both modes of focus have their place and time. The problem is most of us are so caught up in our left brains that we tend to have an overly narrow focus most of the time. So it seems to me that most of us need to do things that increase the use of our right brains. Butcho (1950-2040)  Post a Response

Re: "Chop wood, carry water." Posted by Butcho on 4/8/2009, 11:01 pm, in reply to "Re: "Chop wood, carry water."" 216.96.14.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : "For adepts the principle of : maintaining : concentration and insight is not a matter of : effort; it is spontaneous and effortless, : with no particular time frame. When seeing : and hearing, they are just so; when dressing : and eating, they are just so; when : conversing with people, they are just so; : whatever they are doing; walking, standing, : sitting, reclining, speaking, silent, : rejoicing, at all times and in everything : they are just so. : : Like empty boats riding the waves, going : along with the high and the low, like a : river winding through the mountains, curving : at curves and straight at straits, without : minding any state of mind, buoyantly going : along with nature today, buoyantly going : along with nature tomorrow, adapting to all : circumstances without inhibition or : impediment, neither stopping nor fostering : good or evil, simple and straightforward, : without artificiality, perception normal. : Such is the mind of the person who clearly : sees the Buddha way." : : Master Chinul (1158-1210) : : Dailyzen.com : : : Butch, excellent words those : are...beautifully describing living the Way. : : And I agree with gar that the peaceful mind : is one of undifferentiated attention, not : caught on anything, flowing with what is, as : it is. : Hey josef, It takes faith to let go. Butcho  Post a Response

It takes faith to let go Posted by gar on 4/9/2009, 4:02 am, in reply to "Re: "Chop wood, carry water."" 70.100.196.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : "For adepts the principle of : maintaining : concentration and insight is not a matter of : effort; it is spontaneous and effortless, : with no particular time frame. When seeing : and hearing, they are just so; when dressing : and eating, they are just so; when : conversing with people, they are just so; : whatever they are doing; walking, standing, : sitting, reclining, speaking, silent, : rejoicing, at all times and in everything : they are just so. : : Like empty boats riding the waves, going : along with the high and the low, like a : river winding through the mountains, curving : at curves and straight at straits, without : minding any state of mind, buoyantly going : along with nature today, buoyantly going : along with nature tomorrow, adapting to all : circumstances without inhibition or : impediment, neither stopping nor fostering : good or evil, simple and straightforward, : without artificiality, perception normal. : Such is the mind of the person who clearly : sees the Buddha way." : : Master Chinul (1158-1210) : : Dailyzen.com : : : Butch, excellent words those : are...beautifully describing living the Way. : : And I agree with gar that the peaceful mind : is one of undifferentiated attention, not : caught on anything, flowing with what is, as : it is. : : Hey josef, : : It takes faith to let go. : : Butcho : Greetings Butcho and Josef I'm sitting here thinking about Butcho words, "it takes faith to let go". I think for me it's not so much faith but a willingness to accept the unknown consequences. Perhaps i'm a bit like Dr. Frankenstein in that i'm willing to re-create gar without a sense of its outcome. So, why would anyone want to let go? Some have a personal faith that the outcome is determined by a higher power. Others might take the plunge for moral reasons. Yet, there seems to be some of us who can only live their lives risk taking, and experimenting with no goals to burden them. Time to return to the water for awhile. Take care of the hotel 'tao speaks' in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: It takes faith to let go Posted by ren ying on 4/9/2009, 6:51 am, in reply to "It takes faith to let go" 85.181.61.X "it takes faith to let go". : : I think for me it's not so much faith but a : willingness to accept the unknown : consequences. : in german we have a word for it: Urvertrauen... it is a trust in the world... in things... in persons ...that everything will fit anyway... there is no need for a faith we have it ziran - naturally up to that time oneself or somebody destroys it  Post a Response

Re: It takes faith to let go Posted by josef on 4/9/2009, 7:50 am, in reply to "Re: It takes faith to let go" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : "it takes faith to let go". : : I think for me it's not so much faith but a : willingness to accept the unknown : consequences. : : : in german we have a word for it: : : Urvertrauen... : : it is a trust in the world... in things... : in persons ...that everything will fit : anyway... : : there is no need for a faith : : we have it ziran - naturally : up to that time oneself or somebody destroys : it Agree, we have it naturally "up to that time oneself or somebody destroys it", which is the effect of conditioning, and what cultivation and practice are about: shedding conditioning. The mind that is quiet when thought is not needed rests in undifferentiated awareness, like the little child's, non-reifying, non-attached, non-resisting. I think the faith Butch refers to is having faith that it's possible to return to this original state all the while ego is resisting letting go its stashes of clinging.  Post a Response

Re: It takes faith to let go Posted by Butcho on 4/9/2009, 8:33 am, in reply to "Re: It takes faith to let go" 75.88.40.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : "it takes faith to let go". : : I think for me it's not so much faith but a : willingness to accept the unknown : consequences. : : : in german we have a word for it: : : Urvertrauen... : : it is a trust in the world... in things... : in persons ...that everything will fit : anyway... : : there is no need for a faith : : we have it ziran - naturally : up to that time oneself or somebody destroys : it : : Agree, we have it naturally "up to that : time oneself or somebody destroys it", : which is the effect of conditioning, and : what cultivation and practice are about: : shedding conditioning. The mind that is : quiet when thought is not needed rests in : undifferentiated awareness, like the little : child's, non-reifying, non-attached, : non-resisting. : : I think the faith Butch refers to is having : faith that it's possible to return to this : original state all the while ego is : resisting letting go its stashes of : clinging. : Friends, By "Faith" I do not mean anyone has to have the same faith in my God or gods as I do. By Faith I mean that no matter our personal philosophy we rely on something we have "named" to get us through our day. Especially the difficult ones. For ren ying it is faith in the "swing". For some it is simply faith in existence. For some it is the eternal Tao. Others Allah. Others the Great Spirit in the Sky. Others claim no faith in anything at all. Some have faith in no faith. We all trust in something. I trust in existence. And for me there is something behind or beyond the One and the Many. Beyond temporal existence. Something eternal. Something Moses called "I AM THAT I AM". Letting go of our conditioning is what it is all about for me. Being born again. Waking up. Returning to our original self, our original nature. And for me I find this best done when I let go of words. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: "Chop wood, carry water." Posted by Wayne L. on 4/9/2009, 9:43 am, in reply to "Re: "Chop wood, carry water."" 76.87.4.X I believe in the reality of Myth! The only problem being that we speak in metaphors. I am of the opinion that there must have been a civilization far greater advanced than our own thousands of years ago. How many years ago? Eons, Eons, Eons, ago. I interpret the story of Adam and Eve as being the Story of Yin\Yang, Eve being Yin and Adam being Yang. The story of Adam and Evil not ending with Man being born of the dust of the ground nor the creation of Eve, Eve being a Creation born of the side of Adam; Said story of Yin\Yang to include the eating of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, said Knowledge being duplicitous, guileful, being the Knowledge, a Singularity having a dual quality, The Knowledge of Good and Evil, Absolutely Bad Knowledge imagined to be absolutely Good Knowledge, being an Illusion of Reality. A simple pair of opposites do not a duality make! I see Adam and Eve, Yin\Yang, as being separate and distinct without being separate and distinct. Meaning that Adam and Eve, Yin\Yang, are not only born of, not only issue forth from the same source, they are One in the same; Adam and Eve, Yin\Yang, are, in the beginning, simply two different Names gives to Man’s view of Reality as seen from Two different points of View, the Knowledge of Reality becoming distorted, perverted, an abomination, if viewed but from One particular Single Point of View. An Illusion is a Graven Image of Reality, a false Image, is a Reality that must be impressed deeply into the Mind in order to exist as a Reality. Reality under normal circumstance, normal meaning according to Nature, exists independent of our thoughts, our ideas, our conjecture, our speculation, our Imaginings concerning it.  Post a Response

Re: It takes faith to let go Posted by josef on 4/9/2009, 10:44 am, in reply to "Re: It takes faith to let go" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : Friends, : : By "Faith" I do not mean anyone : has to have the same faith in my God or gods : as I do. By Faith I mean that no matter our : personal philosophy we rely on something we : have "named" to get us through our : day. Especially the difficult ones. : : For ren ying it is faith in the : "swing". For some it is simply : faith in existence. For some it is the : eternal Tao. Others Allah. Others the Great : Spirit in the Sky. Others claim no faith in : anything at all. Some have faith in no : faith. : : We all trust in something. I trust in : existence. And for me there is something : behind or beyond the One and the Many. : Beyond temporal existence. Something : eternal. Something Moses called "I AM : THAT I AM". : : Letting go of our conditioning is what it is : all about for me. Being born again. Waking : up. Returning to our original self, our : original nature. : : And for me I find this best done when I let : go of words. : : Butcho Letting go of conditioning is what it's all about for me too. Your "We all trust in something" gave me pause, wondering what it is I trust in. On reflection, strangely it's cause and effect, process, AKA Tao, the Way.  Post a Response

Re: It takes faith to let go Posted by gar on 4/9/2009, 11:42 am, in reply to "Re: It takes faith to let go" 70.100.196.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Friends, : : By "Faith" I do not mean anyone : has to have the same faith in my God or gods : as I do. By Faith I mean that no matter our : personal philosophy we rely on something we : have "named" to get us through our : day. Especially the difficult ones. : : For ren ying it is faith in the : "swing". For some it is simply : faith in existence. For some it is the : eternal Tao. Others Allah. Others the Great : Spirit in the Sky. Others claim no faith in : anything at all. Some have faith in no : faith. : : We all trust in something. I trust in : existence. And for me there is something : behind or beyond the One and the Many. : Beyond temporal existence. Something : eternal. Something Moses called "I AM : THAT I AM". : : Letting go of our conditioning is what it is : all about for me. Being born again. Waking : up. Returning to our original self, our : original nature. : : And for me I find this best done when I let : go of words. : : Butcho : : Letting go of conditioning is what it's all : about for me too. Your "We all trust in : something" gave me pause, wondering : what it is I trust in. On reflection, : strangely it's cause and effect, process, : AKA Tao, the Way. : Yes Josef, letting go of conditioning, i like that! in peace, gar  Post a Response

Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith. Posted by Butcho on 4/9/2009, 11:14 pm, in reply to "Re: It takes faith to let go" 71.28.136.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Friends, : : By "Faith" I do not mean anyone : has to have the same faith in my God or gods : as I do. By Faith I mean that no matter our : personal philosophy we rely on something we : have "named" to get us through our : day. Especially the difficult ones. : : For ren ying it is faith in the : "swing". For some it is simply : faith in existence. For some it is the : eternal Tao. Others Allah. Others the Great : Spirit in the Sky. Others claim no faith in : anything at all. Some have faith in no : faith. : : We all trust in something. I trust in : existence. And for me there is something : behind or beyond the One and the Many. : Beyond temporal existence. Something : eternal. Something Moses called "I AM : THAT I AM". : : Letting go of our conditioning is what it is : all about for me. Being born again. Waking : up. Returning to our original self, our : original nature. : : And for me I find this best done when I let : go of words. : : Butcho : : Letting go of conditioning is what it's all : about for me too. Your "We all trust in : something" gave me pause, wondering : what it is I trust in. On reflection, : strangely it's cause and effect, process, : AKA Tao, the Way. : : Yes Josef, letting go of conditioning, i : like that! : : in peace, : gar : Friends, Is not faith another word for wu-wei? Is not wu-wei action that is in accord with the way of the Tao. Wu-wei equals faith-action. Unconditioned action. Action free of one's conditioning. Natural action is more the product of feel than it is of thinking. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith. Posted by ren ying on 4/10/2009, 12:42 am, in reply to "Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith." 85.181.31.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Friends, : : By "Faith" I do not mean anyone : has to have the same faith in my God or gods : as I do. By Faith I mean that no matter our : personal philosophy we rely on something we : have "named" to get us through our : day. Especially the difficult ones. : : For ren ying it is faith in the : "swing". For some it is simply : faith in existence. For some it is the : eternal Tao. Others Allah. Others the Great : Spirit in the Sky. Others claim no faith in : anything at all. Some have faith in no : faith. : : We all trust in something. I trust in : existence. And for me there is something : behind or beyond the One and the Many. : Beyond temporal existence. Something : eternal. Something Moses called "I AM : THAT I AM". : : Letting go of our conditioning is what it is : all about for me. Being born again. Waking : up. Returning to our original self, our : original nature. : : And for me I find this best done when I let : go of words. : : Butcho : : Letting go of conditioning is what it's all : about for me too. Your "We all trust in : something" gave me pause, wondering : what it is I trust in. On reflection, : strangely it's cause and effect, process, : AKA Tao, the Way. : : Yes Josef, letting go of conditioning, i : like that! : : in peace, : gar : : : Friends, : : Is not faith another word for wu-wei? Is not : wu-wei action that is in accord with the way : of the Tao. Wu-wei equals faith-action. : Unconditioned action. Action free of one's : conditioning. Natural action is more the : product of feel than it is of thinking. : : Butcho : Butch - the problem is that you are using words - for example "faith" in the way you like... Merriam Webster writes 1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions 2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust 3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs wu wei has nothing to do with this Urvertrauen has nothing to do with this - If you take 2 a This faith destroys "Urvertrauen" Since it makes you for trust dependent on this... Urvertrauen is given naturally... Somehow i have the feeling you are meaning just this... we cannot understand wu wei if we have not understood wu before  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith. Posted by Butcho on 4/10/2009, 8:17 am, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith." 75.88.41.X : : --Previous Message-- : : Friends, : : By "Faith" I do not mean anyone : has to have the same faith in my God or gods : as I do. By Faith I mean that no matter our : personal philosophy we rely on something we : have "named" to get us through our : day. Especially the difficult ones. : : For ren ying it is faith in the : "swing". For some it is simply : faith in existence. For some it is the : eternal Tao. Others Allah. Others the Great : Spirit in the Sky. Others claim no faith in : anything at all. Some have faith in no : faith. : : We all trust in something. I trust in : existence. And for me there is something : behind or beyond the One and the Many. : Beyond temporal existence. Something : eternal. Something Moses called "I AM : THAT I AM". : : Letting go of our conditioning is what it is : all about for me. Being born again. Waking : up. Returning to our original self, our : original nature. : : And for me I find this best done when I let : go of words. : : Butcho : : Letting go of conditioning is what it's all : about for me too. Your "We all trust in : something" gave me pause, wondering : what it is I trust in. On reflection, : strangely it's cause and effect, process, : AKA Tao, the Way. : : Yes Josef, letting go of conditioning, i : like that! : : in peace, : gar : : : Friends, : : Is not faith another word for wu-wei? Is not : wu-wei action that is in accord with the way : of the Tao. Wu-wei equals faith-action. : Unconditioned action. Action free of one's : conditioning. Natural action is more the : product of feel than it is of thinking. : : Butcho : : : Butch - the problem is that you are using : words - for example "faith" in the : way you like... : : Merriam Webster writes : : 1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises : (2): sincerity of intentions : 2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to : God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines : of a religion b (1): firm belief in : something for which there is no proof (2): : complete trust : 3: something that is believed especially : with strong conviction ; especially : a : system of religious beliefs : : wu wei has nothing to do with this : : Urvertrauen has nothing to do with this : : - : If you take 2 a : : This faith destroys "Urvertrauen" : Since it makes you for trust dependent on : this... : : Urvertrauen is given naturally... : Somehow i have the feeling you are meaning : just this... : : we cannot understand wu wei : if we have not understood : wu : before : ren ying, I was hoping you would join in the conversation. Though we sometimes disagree I always appreciate your considered opinion. You tend to be more of a left-brained type while I tend to be more of a right-brained type. So, how do we communicate. With an open heart I suppose. You tend to be a literalist. I tend to be more into the spirit of what is being said, and not so much into the law of what is being said. Please don't be offended. But frankly, I find your's to be a rather narrow and confining way of seeing things. Different strokes for different folks. The right-brain makes very little sense to the left. But you have a right-brain as well as I do. So I try to appeal to your right while speaking to your left. I am not always very successful in this, but I keep trying. I am one heck of a guy. I equate faith with wu-wei. You and your dictionary don't. Perhaps you would like it if I used the word trust or bide instead of faith. To me trust and faith are pretty much the same thing. But I will continue to use the word faith just as surely as you continue to use the word swing. I am not against Religion. I am against the fundamentalism of the religious mindset. Whether in myself or in others. And, hold onto your Bratwurst, in my opinion yours is a fundamentalist position where the topic of faith is concerned. Anything that suggests there might be something behind everything, especially a Creator, you automatically discount as being verbotten where intelligent conversation is concerned. You would dictate the terms of the conversation. Your swing or no swing. Such is the nature of the left-brain. The home of the religious mind. The right is the home of spiritual consciousness. I venture into the left-brain every time I use words. Isn't it about time you entered into the right when you read them? ren ying has "trust" in the swing. I am sorry for suggesting otherwise. I have "faith" in existence. I am not sorry for having faith. I feel sorry for those that have none. Sorry because I feel faith is a natural response to existence. In my opinion it is only from one's conditioning that one would think otherwise. Butcho  Post a Response

destroyer of language Posted by ren ying on 4/10/2009, 8:26 am, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith." 85.181.32.X Butch i dont think that accurate usage of language has anything to do with what you are writing  Post a Response

wu wei Posted by josef on 4/10/2009, 9:45 am, in reply to "destroyer of language" 24.32.223.X This dialogue led me to some interesting musings. Religion is a system of *taught* beliefs. Language is a system of *taught* symbology. Taught=conditioning. Imagine living in the most natural state on an island somewhere with no one to teach one anything. Without language or conditioning what one would learn, would have "faith" in, as that food satisfies hunger, water satisfies thirst; some snakes and plants are dangerous, and so on. The world we create with our concepts is an alternate reality, a mental world, literally, that we experience, live in and from. Unnecessarily. That's where wu makes sense, where wu wei makes sense. Wu is where the unnecessary isn't, wu wei is where we act and live without the unnecessary. Essential, simple, direct. Imo.  Post a Response

Staying on Track, the Right Track! Posted by Wayne L. on 4/10/2009, 11:04 am, in reply to "Re: Dull the senses, Un-focus the mind" 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : : The left brain has a tendency to be narrowly : focused. The right wide. Both modes of focus : have their place and time. The problem is : most of us are so caught up in our left : brains that we tend to have an overly narrow : focus most of the time. : : So it seems to me that most of us need to do : things that increase the use of our right : brains. : : Butcho (1950-2040) Sticking to the Straight and Narrow; Fundamentally Speaking, Reality as experience by the Left Brain, exists independent of the thoughts, the ideas, the conjecture, the speculation, the imaginings of the Left Brain, Reality as experience by the Right Brain being Fixed, Absolute, readily apparent, measurable as to location and or momentum in Time and or Space. Although Reality as experience by the Right Brain, the Feminine Brain is nonsensical, Free to go off on a tangent, Ambiguous, the Right Brain is Mankind's Salvation, Savior, However! Bound to the Ambiguity of Left Brain, the Right Brain no longer bound to the Reality of the moment the here and now, Man doe not have the slightest idea as to what Time it is. Man’s problem being that the Right Brain that has been lead astray by the Left Brain; Man's Fundamental sense of Manliness becoming an abomination, distorted; Machismo, Macho Man believing that it is Good to be competitive, to Ride a White Horse into Battle, Best-tiality, a perverted sense of Manliness, being the Main Cause of the Down Fall of Man. The sense of Reality as experience by the Left Brain having become an abomination, perverted, distorted, Man in his Right Mind has become Sick in the Head, Sic,Sic,Sic; Best-iality, the distorted competitive Nature of Man born of the Dust of the ground, Best-iality, being the cause of Man's Anger, Self Righteousness, Might is Right, an Eye for and Eye mentality, the death of Man's Spirit for Life; The Love of Live being dependent upon Compassion, Joy, Love, Happiness, Submissiveness, Spirituality. Wayne L. (1942-2012)  Post a Response

Re: wu wei Posted by ren ying on 4/10/2009, 11:09 am, in reply to "wu wei" 85.181.36.X : Wu is where the unnecessary : isn't, wu wei is where we act and live : without the unnecessary. Essential, simple, : direct. : : Imo. : i imagine wu on the one side and you on the other side... wu is the spiritual side you is the side of matter  Post a Response

Re: Dull the senses, Un-focus the mind Posted by Wayne L. on 4/10/2009, 11:14 am, in reply to "Dull the senses, Un-focus the mind" 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : Greetings Butcho, : : Here we go with the words again. : : It seems to me when, we are able to not : focus on this and that, awareness is : experienced with completeness. : : Look not for the star in heaven, but heaven : in the star. : : in peace, : gar (1949- 20??)  Post a Response

Re: It takes faith to let go Posted by Wayne L. on 4/10/2009, 11:33 am, in reply to "Re: It takes faith to let go" 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : I think the faith Butch refers to is having : faith that it's possible to return to this : original state all the while ego is : resisting letting go its stashes of : clinging. : Returning to the Original State is not the Goal. The Purpose of Returning is so that One may be reborn a New Creature. If you simply return to your original state as a goal you will simply return to you currant state. Man simply did not getting off on a Good Start. The only way to return and start anew is for One to be willing to give it up, to step out of Self, the New Self being No Self, being Nameless, having No Name, being Faceless, not being God Like, a Know-it-all, Omniscient.  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith. Posted by Wayne L. on 4/10/2009, 12:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith." 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : : Such is the nature of the left-brain. The : home of the religious mind. The right is the : home of spiritual consciousness. The Right Brain is also full of hot air, and as a know-it-all is of no material use, worth, is of no relative Value by itself, is a Space Station, the Home of a Space-Cadet, the Left Brain being an old fuddy-duddy, picayune, stick in the mud. The Two must work together as One, as the Whole of a Single Reality; Either by itself being of No Relative Value to the Salvation of Man. Man’s Salvation requires that the two become One, that the Two work as the Whole of a Single Reality; The Whole being Greater than the sum total of Two, each working as an individuality.  Post a Response

Re: wu wei Posted by Wayne L. on 4/10/2009, 1:31 pm, in reply to "Re: wu wei" 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : i imagine wu on the one side and you on the : other side... : : wu is the spiritual side : you is the side of matter Knowledge of the existence Material Reality, Matter, Material Reality existing independent of our thoughts concerning it, does not require Faith; Material Reality, Matter being readily apparent, measurable as to location and or momentum in Time and or Space, Reality as it exists Here and Now.. However, Knowledge of Realities those are not subject to the Relativity of Time and Space, the Reality of the moment, the Here and Time, that are not readily apparent, measurable as to location and or momentum in Time and or in Space, Realities that do not exist independent of our Faith, our thought, our speculation, conjecture, imaginings, our theory concerning them, that do not exist in the Reality of the Moment the Here and Now, such as Yesterday and Tomorrow. Spiritual Realities that also exist, although not in Material sense of the word, require that man have faith in their existence, Wu Li being born of Tao, Reason---->O.  Post a Response

You can get anything you want at Alice's Dictionary! Posted by Butcho on 4/10/2009, 3:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith." 162.40.48.X Message-- : : Friends, : : By "Faith" I do not mean anyone : has to have the same faith in my God or gods : as I do. By Faith I mean that no matter our : personal philosophy we rely on something we : have "named" to get us through our : day. Especially the difficult ones. : : For ren ying it is faith in the : "swing". For some it is simply : faith in existence. For some it is the : eternal Tao. Others Allah. Others the Great : Spirit in the Sky. Others claim no faith in : anything at all. Some have faith in no : faith. : : We all trust in something. I trust in : existence. And for me there is something : behind or beyond the One and the Many. : Beyond temporal existence. Something : eternal. Something Moses called "I AM : THAT I AM". : : Letting go of our conditioning is what it is : all about for me. Being born again. Waking : up. Returning to our original self, our : original nature. : : And for me I find this best done when I let : go of words. : : Butcho : : Letting go of conditioning is what it's all : about for me too. Your "We all trust in : something" gave me pause, wondering : what it is I trust in. On reflection, : strangely it's cause and effect, process, : AKA Tao, the Way. : : Yes Josef, letting go of conditioning, i : like that! : : in peace, : gar : : : Friends, : : Is not faith another word for wu-wei? Is not : wu-wei action that is in accord with the way : of the Tao. Wu-wei equals faith-action. : Unconditioned action. Action free of one's : conditioning. Natural action is more the : product of feel than it is of thinking. : : Butcho : : : Butch - the problem is that you are using : words - for example "faith" in the : way you like... : : Merriam Webster writes : : 1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises : (2): sincerity of intentions : 2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to : God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines : of a religion b (1): firm belief in : something for which there is no proof (2): : complete trust : 3: something that is believed especially : with strong conviction ; especially : a : system of religious beliefs : : wu wei has nothing to do with this : : Urvertrauen has nothing to do with this : : - : If you take 2 a : : This faith destroys "Urvertrauen" : Since it makes you for trust dependent on : this... : : Urvertrauen is given naturally... : Somehow i have the feeling you are meaning : just this... : : we cannot understand wu wei : if we have not understood : wu : before : ren ying, "When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master--that's all.' For me wu-wei is the same as actionable faith. Faith without works is dead. Besides, I paid the word "Faith" extra so it owes me. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith. Posted by Butcho on 4/10/2009, 4:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith." 162.40.48.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : : Such is the nature of the left-brain. The : home of the religious mind. The right is the : home of spiritual consciousness. : : : The Right Brain is also full of hot air, and : as a know-it-all is of no material use, : worth, is of no relative Value by itself, is : a Space Station, the Home of a Space-Cadet, : the Left Brain being an old fuddy-duddy, : picayune, stick in the mud. : : The Two must work together as One, as the : Whole of a Single Reality; Either by itself : being of No Relative Value to the Salvation : of Man. : : Man’s Salvation requires that the two become : One, that the Two work as the Whole of a : Single Reality; The Whole being Greater than : the sum total of Two, each working as an : individuality. : : Wayne, I quite agree. The Whole brain is what we are after. And I will trump you with we are after even more than that. We are after the Whole of our being. Our mystic heart. But don't tell ren ying. He has it in for us mystics. Doesn't have any faith in us. Heck, doesn't even want us mystics having any faith in our own experiences. Some people just don't play well with others. I digress. Most of us are caught up in our left brain. Trained to stay in a corner of our being. Conditioned to think we are the thoughts of our left hemisphere. Words. Frozen thoughts. So, I stress the use of the right-brain for in most of us it is under used to say the least. Butcho  Post a Response

Wu-Wei or the Highway Map. Posted by Butcho on 4/10/2009, 4:36 pm, in reply to "wu wei" 162.40.48.X --Previous Message-- : : : This dialogue led me to some interesting : musings. Religion is a system of *taught* : beliefs. Language is a system of *taught* : symbology. Taught=conditioning. : : Imagine living in the most natural state on : an island somewhere with no one to teach one : anything. Without language or conditioning : what one would learn, would have : "faith" in, as that food satisfies : hunger, water satisfies thirst; some snakes : and plants are dangerous, and so on. : : The world we create with our concepts is an : alternate reality, a mental world, : literally, that we experience, live in and : from. Unnecessarily. : : That's where wu makes sense, where wu wei : makes sense. Wu is where the unnecessary : isn't, wu wei is where we act and live : without the unnecessary. Essential, simple, : direct. : : Imo. : josef, I quite agree. Words are symbols. They represent something other than themselves. To the degree that we are caught up in them we are caught up in a symbolic world, not the world as it is. A map rather than what the map is a map of. Such is the nature of words if carried to extreme. They are useful, but they are most useful when we realize they are essentially superfluous in and of themselves. Nothing wrong with a map as long as we remember it is just a model and not the reality it represents. All of our concepts are models. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map. Posted by josef on 4/10/2009, 6:55 pm, in reply to "Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : josef, : : I quite agree. Words are symbols. They : represent something other than themselves. : To the degree that we are caught up in them : we are caught up in a symbolic world, not : the world as it is. A map rather than what : the map is a map of. : : Such is the nature of words if carried to : extreme. They are useful, but they are most : useful when we realize they are essentially : superfluous in and of themselves. : : Nothing wrong with a map as long as we : remember it is just a model and not the : reality it represents. : : All of our concepts are models. : : Butcho Because we both understand this clearly, not mistaking the map for the territory, I can speak to about something that intrigures me. The very curious question of what actual reality the model/concept represents in words such as god or love. Don't we presume, as a result of our conditioning/taught beliefs a reality that may or may not even exist? Here's where Mystery lives for me. Detaching from conceptual, reified givens, assumptions fall away in all directions. Mystery remains. Interest. Then...indifference to the concepts, and engagement with what is as it is without interpretation or assumptions. A radically different life, something like divorced from context while still understanding and appreciating the context others live in. Does this make any sense to you?  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith. Posted by Wayne L. on 4/10/2009, 8:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith." 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : Wayne, : : I quite agree. The Whole brain is what we : are after. And I will trump you with we are : after even more than that. We are after the : Whole of our being. Our mystic heart. But : don't tell ren ying. He has it in for us : mystics. Doesn't have any faith in us. Heck, : doesn't even want us mystics having any : faith in our own experiences. Some people : just don't play well with others. Butcho : Be sure not to go overboard on this Faith Thing; You know what happened to Adam\Eve when Eve ate of one particular source of Knowledge; Going overboard, to much Faith in Spirituality as as your primary source of the knowledge of Reality will get you dead in the water.  Post a Response

The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced. Posted by Butcho on 4/10/2009, 10:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 162.40.48.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : josef, : : I quite agree. Words are symbols. They : represent something other than themselves. : To the degree that we are caught up in them : we are caught up in a symbolic world, not : the world as it is. A map rather than what : the map is a map of. : : Such is the nature of words if carried to : extreme. They are useful, but they are most : useful when we realize they are essentially : superfluous in and of themselves. : : Nothing wrong with a map as long as we : remember it is just a model and not the : reality it represents. : : All of our concepts are models. : : Butcho : : Because we both understand this clearly, not : mistaking the map for the territory, I can : speak to about something that intrigures me. : The very curious question of what actual : reality the model/concept represents in : words such as god or love. Don't we presume, : as a result of our conditioning/taught : beliefs a reality that may or may not even : exist? Here's where Mystery lives for me. : Detaching from conceptual, reified givens, : assumptions fall away in all directions. : Mystery remains. Interest. : Then...indifference to the concepts, and : engagement with what is as it is without : interpretation or assumptions. A radically : different life, something like divorced from : context while still understanding and : appreciating the context others live in. : : Does this make any sense to you? : josef, I can see how someone might live in total silence. Someone so in tune with reality as it is as to find words pointless. We are told that the Buddha never wrote anything down himself. That the words of the Buddha that have been passed down to us were recorded by others. It is also said that Zen was born when the Buddha said nothing but smiled as he held up a lotus flower and a kindred spirit in the crowd smiled in return. Laughed even. Thus the transmission of that which cannot be said in words began. The transference of the key without scripture to the first key holder. Mahakashyap. The key to all the teachings, all the words that are pointing at the moon--be they the words of the Buddha, of Lao Tzu, or Jesus, cannot itself be communicated through words to the person that has not experienced reality as it is for themselves. Reality is not what we 'think' it is, or what we have been told it is. The key cannot be delivered through the ordinary mind, the conditioned mind, the egoistic mind. And with that said the more that is said the more difficult it becomes to be understood. Thus it is said that the Buddha spent the last forty years of his life talking about not talking. Two truly enlightened people, two sages, have nothing to say to each other. This though only a Buddha can understand what it is a Buddha is saying. Unenlightened people talk all of the time... Be nice. But such is the path of the Bodhicitta. The path of words. The path of pointing with words at the moon to those that have not seen the moon for themselves in the hope that something that is said might gestate an ephiphany in another. In one that has not directly experienced the unitive nature of existence for oneself. For the self that has experienced the Self that is not a self in the normative sense of a separate existential self. The selfless self. We are each a part of that which has no parts. Not one, but a unitive one. Not monolithic but manifold. More than one, but less than two. Undivided. Nondual. Whole. A reality greater than the sum of its parts. A Whole so full that it is even full of emptiness. An Emptiness that is empty of full and empty, of dualistic concepts. Of words. Of division. Thus the Zen masters speak of the transference of the key without scripture. Beyond scripture. Beyond words. Beyond discursive intellection. Beyond mind in the normative or conditioned sense. Talk to the trees, to the flowers, to the animals, for they will truly listen. And truly speak. We are not our thoughts for they come and go as do all things. We are not a thing. We are no thing. Pure awareness, spirit, is not a thing. Brain waves can be measured for they have a material reality. Spirit comes before thought. Mind over matter so to speak. We are not evolving nearly so much as we are unfolding. The conditioned mind has its rules. This is this, that is that. So on and so on and so forth. The mystic heart has only one rule. "From the first totality is a unitive one." Hui-Neng. Silence within, laughter without. The greatest joke being, "We are reality in search of reality." Ramana Maharshi. We are not alone. We are all-one. The game being played by existence is not Solitaire. It is a game of Hearts. Or in Christian vernacular the Kingdom of God is not a person, it is a family. I AM THAT I AM. Or you can just call me Popeye like my friend assinity likes to do. Namaste, Butcho  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map. Posted by ren ying on 4/11/2009, 12:36 am, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 85.181.19.X : understanding and : appreciating the context others live in. -yes this is crucial for communication -another word is respect... BTW: it is a triviality to see that words are not the reality they are pointing to... and communication is impossible - and it get stopped - if people dont respect definitions of terms...  Post a Response

raca Posted by josef on 4/11/2009, 7:37 am, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : understanding and : appreciating the context others live in. : : -yes this is crucial for communication : -another word is respect... : : BTW: it is a triviality to see that words : are not the reality they are pointing to... : : and communication is impossible - and it get : stopped - if people dont respect definitions : of terms... Agree, ren ying. I was raised by lovely, serene nuns who spoke only when something needed to be communicated, who respected and embraced silence, who insisted on it out of respect for others' right to prayerful or reflective silence. The incredible glut of words swirling in the world today reduces them to largely noise, the true value of communication lost. Everywhere I see people with cell phones glued to their ears, talking, talking, talking. So many words, meanings blur, communication lost to meaningless chatter. I envision two cave men in prehistoric times, resting in a cave while on a hunt, perhaps, having made a little fire from flint as they'd learned to do, and standing by it enjoying its warmth. Ug & Og I call them. Ug gives an appreciated grunt of pleasure that comes out something like "raca". Og in agreement grunts similarly, "raca". The next day the hunt is long & not going well, the day turns cold, Og feels a longing for rest and the warmth of the fire and turns to Ug wanting to communicate this to him. On impulse, he mutters the sound they both made by the fire the night before, "raca". Ug looks at him, remembers the moment and realizes what Og is referring to, nods and grunts "raca". And they go back to the cave. Thus, possibly, the first "word" was born. True communication. Spoken, meaning relayed and understood. Now we drown in a sea of words used every which way, referring to complex concepts, intricate connections, myriad connotations. The simple, immediate connection of speaking, meaning relayed and understood, the very purpose of words, often lost in the shuffle. I particularly appreciate, like my serene cloistered teachers, words used sparingly, to communicate, which is why I always read your posts carefully. You respect words and choose them with care, wishing to actually communicate your understanding. So, to your "raca", I say "raca". :-) josef  Post a Response

Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced. Posted by josef on 4/11/2009, 8:01 am, in reply to "The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced." 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : josef, : : I can see how someone might live in total : silence. Someone so in tune with reality as : it is as to find words pointless. We are : told that the Buddha never wrote anything : down himself. That the words of the Buddha : that have been passed down to us were : recorded by others. It is also said that Zen : was born when the Buddha said nothing but : smiled as he held up a lotus flower and a : kindred spirit in the crowd smiled in : return. Laughed even. Thus the transmission : of that which cannot be said in words began. : The transference of the key without : scripture to the first key holder. : Mahakashyap. : : The key to all the teachings, all the words : that are pointing at the moon--be they the : words of the Buddha, of Lao Tzu, or Jesus, : cannot itself be communicated through words : to the person that has not experienced : reality as it is for themselves. Reality is : not what we 'think' it is, or what we have : been told it is. The key cannot be delivered : through the ordinary mind, the conditioned : mind, the egoistic mind. And with that said : the more that is said the more difficult it : becomes to be understood. Thus it is said : that the Buddha spent the last forty years : of his life talking about not talking. : : Two truly enlightened people, two sages, : have nothing to say to each other. This : though only a Buddha can understand what it : is a Buddha is saying. Unenlightened people : talk all of the time... Be nice. But such is : the path of the Bodhicitta. The path of : words. The path of pointing with words at : the moon to those that have not seen the : moon for themselves in the hope that : something that is said might gestate an : ephiphany in another. In one that has not : directly experienced the unitive nature of : existence for oneself. For the self that has : experienced the Self that is not a self in : the normative sense of a separate : existential self. The selfless self. : : We are each a part of that which has no : parts. Not one, but a unitive one. Not : monolithic but manifold. More than one, but : less than two. Undivided. Nondual. Whole. A : reality greater than the sum of its parts. A : Whole so full that it is even full of : emptiness. An Emptiness that is empty of : full and empty, of dualistic concepts. Of : words. Of division. : : Thus the Zen masters speak of the : transference of the key without scripture. : Beyond scripture. Beyond words. Beyond : discursive intellection. Beyond mind in the : normative or conditioned sense. : : Talk to the trees, to the flowers, to the : animals, for they will truly listen. And : truly speak. : : We are not our thoughts for they come and go : as do all things. We are not a thing. We are : no thing. Pure awareness, spirit, is not a : thing. Brain waves can be measured for they : have a material reality. Spirit comes before : thought. Mind over matter so to speak. We : are not evolving nearly so much as we are : unfolding. : : The conditioned mind has its rules. This is : this, that is that. So on and so on and so : forth. The mystic heart has only one rule. : "From the first totality is a unitive : one." Hui-Neng. : : Silence within, laughter without. The : greatest joke being, "We are reality in : search of reality." Ramana Maharshi. : : We are not alone. We are all-one. The game : being played by existence is not Solitaire. : It is a game of Hearts. Or in Christian : vernacular the Kingdom of God is not a : person, it is a family. : : I AM THAT I AM. Or you can just call me : Popeye like my friend assinity likes to do. : : Namaste, : : Butcho Butcho, words are symbols, we agree. Mistaking the concept symbolized for the reality is common and is illusion, I think we agree. Living in the thought/concept world is "sleepwalking", and seeing through this and experiencing reality directly is awakening, we agree. All that you've written above I am in harmony and agreement with. Well said all. Until: : We are not alone. We are all-one. The game : being played by existence is not Solitaire. : It is a game of Hearts. Or in Christian : vernacular the Kingdom of God is not a : person, it is a family. Here you introduce something more than "from the first all is a unitive one". It seems you've added a reification association that leads away from simple unity to that mistaking the map for the territory thing. Unless I'm misunderstanding your words, which is possible. The "we" who are family are humans you're referring to, yes? The inference seems to put humans in a non-inclusive category, separated, not unitive one. Hearts adds a dimension of emotion. The Kingdom of God as a family. Humans, right? All this addition seems to me to veer away from the unitive one of all that is, where atoms and quarks and ducks and pharoahs are all of an indivisible whole: existence. The inclusive "all is unitive one" and what seems to me the exclusive elevating of humans seems to be the divergence for me. All in the spirit of true discussion, josef  Post a Response

Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced. Posted by Butcho on 4/11/2009, 9:29 am, in reply to "Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced." 71.30.137.X : : Butcho : : Butcho, words are symbols, we agree. : Mistaking the concept symbolized for the : reality is common and is illusion, I think : we agree. Living in the thought/concept : world is "sleepwalking", and : seeing through this and experiencing reality : directly is awakening, we agree. : : All that you've written above I am in : harmony and agreement with. Well said all. : Until: : : We are not alone. We are all-one. The game : being played by existence is not Solitaire. : It is a game of Hearts. Or in Christian : vernacular the Kingdom of God is not a : person, it is a family. : : Here you introduce something more than : "from the first all is a unitive : one". It seems you've added a : reification association that leads away from : simple unity to that mistaking the map for : the territory thing. Unless I'm : misunderstanding your words, which is : possible. The "we" who are family : are humans you're referring to, yes? The : inference seems to put humans in a : non-inclusive category, separated, not : unitive one. Hearts adds a dimension of : emotion. The Kingdom of God as a family. : Humans, right? All this addition seems to me : to veer away from the unitive one of all : that is, where atoms and quarks and ducks : and pharoahs are all of an indivisible : whole: existence. : : The inclusive "all is unitive one" : and what seems to me the exclusive elevating : of humans seems to be the divergence for me. : : All in the spirit of true discussion, : : josef : : josef, You may very well be right. But I may not be wrong as well. Let me explain. In my opinion there is one fundamental mistake where the nature of reality is concerned. That is all other mistakes take root here. That being that all is a numerical one. Not a synergetic one, not a unitive one, but a numerical one. In my opinion, monism, is a fatal error where the nature of existence is concerned. For me purist advaita, monisms of every ilk, are a house of mirrors. A myth that distorts reality as it is. Monism leads to all sorts of solipsistic perspectives. If all is numerically one then I am God. If all is n one then nothing matters. If all is n one then my god is the God. If all is n one then nothing is real. It is all just a play on words. Such thinking, such solipsistic thinking, is the cause of just about every example of man's inhumanity to man that I can think of. Hooray for me, to bad for you. Thinking all is n one is the ultimate ego trip. So I draw a distinction between all is numerically one and all is a unitive one. One is an illusion and the other is more in line with the nature of existence. I do not believe we cannot know anything. It is just that I know enough to know that the concepts that we live by, and that is what humans do, matter. No man is an island, he is a peninsula. What you think matters to me, and what I think matters to you. Whether either of us realize it or not. We are interconnected at every level and at every point. A unitive one. I hope this brief explanation helps you to understand where I am coming from regarding what I feel is the Number One Myth. If you don't agree or agree at least you now have a better idea of where I am coming from on this point. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map. Posted by Butcho on 4/11/2009, 9:33 am, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 71.30.137.X --Previous Message-- : understanding and : appreciating the context others live in. : : -yes this is crucial for communication : -another word is respect... : : BTW: it is a triviality to see that words : are not the reality they are pointing to... : : and communication is impossible - and it get : stopped - if people dont respect definitions : of terms... : ren ying, I don't like to fight over words unless of course they are mine. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced. Posted by josef on 4/11/2009, 12:05 pm, in reply to "Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced." 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : josef, : : You may very well be right. But I may not be : wrong as well. Let me explain. : : In my opinion there is one fundamental : mistake where the nature of reality is : concerned. That is all other mistakes take : root here. That being that all is a : numerical one. Not a synergetic one, not a : unitive one, but a numerical one. : : In my opinion, monism, is a fatal error : where the nature of existence is concerned. : For me purist advaita, monisms of every ilk, : are a house of mirrors. A myth that distorts : reality as it is. : : Monism leads to all sorts of solipsistic : perspectives. If all is numerically one then : I am God. If all is n one then nothing : matters. If all is n one then my god is the : God. If all is n one then nothing is real. : It is all just a play on words. : : Such thinking, such solipsistic thinking, is : the cause of just about every example of : man's inhumanity to man that I can think of. : Hooray for me, to bad for you. Thinking all : is n one is the ultimate ego trip. : : So I draw a distinction between all is : numerically one and all is a unitive one. : One is an illusion and the other is more in : line with the nature of existence. I do not : believe we cannot know anything. It is just : that I know enough to know that the concepts : that we live by, and that is what humans do, : matter. : : No man is an island, he is a peninsula. What : you think matters to me, and what I think : matters to you. Whether either of us realize : it or not. We are interconnected at every : level and at every point. A unitive one. : : I hope this brief explanation helps you to : understand where I am coming from regarding : what I feel is the Number One Myth. If you : don't agree or agree at least you now have a : better idea of where I am coming from on : this point. : : Butcho Butcho, thanks for taking the time to explain what you meant. It deserves more than a quicky response, no time for that now, so Monday I'll have time to give a more considered one. Also would like to read yours over a few times, before responding. I got lost somewhere. josef  Post a Response

Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced. Posted by Butcho on 4/11/2009, 9:40 pm, in reply to "Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced." 71.30.137.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : josef, : : You may very well be right. But I may not be : wrong as well. Let me explain. : : In my opinion there is one fundamental : mistake where the nature of reality is : concerned. That is all other mistakes take : root here. That being that all is a : numerical one. Not a synergetic one, not a : unitive one, but a numerical one. : : In my opinion, monism, is a fatal error : where the nature of existence is concerned. : For me purist advaita, monisms of every ilk, : are a house of mirrors. A myth that distorts : reality as it is. : : Monism leads to all sorts of solipsistic : perspectives. If all is numerically one then : I am God. If all is n one then nothing : matters. If all is n one then my god is the : God. If all is n one then nothing is real. : It is all just a play on words. : : Such thinking, such solipsistic thinking, is : the cause of just about every example of : man's inhumanity to man that I can think of. : Hooray for me, to bad for you. Thinking all : is n one is the ultimate ego trip. : : So I draw a distinction between all is : numerically one and all is a unitive one. : One is an illusion and the other is more in : line with the nature of existence. I do not : believe we cannot know anything. It is just : that I know enough to know that the concepts : that we live by, and that is what humans do, : matter. : : No man is an island, he is a peninsula. What : you think matters to me, and what I think : matters to you. Whether either of us realize : it or not. We are interconnected at every : level and at every point. A unitive one. : : I hope this brief explanation helps you to : understand where I am coming from regarding : what I feel is the Number One Myth. If you : don't agree or agree at least you now have a : better idea of where I am coming from on : this point. : : Butcho : : Butcho, thanks for taking the time to : explain what you meant. It deserves more : than a quicky response, no time for that : now, so Monday I'll have time to give a more : considered one. Also would like to read : yours over a few times, before responding. I : got lost somewhere. : : josef : : josef, In a nutshell. Existence is a nonlinear function. Its nature is more a quality than a quantity. So if we must number it then we should use a number that is representative of it nature, of its quality. Unity cannot properly be numbered as One unless it is described as a "Unitive" One. An integrated whole. Thus the number of existence is an irrational number. Think Pi. 3.14159+++++++++++++++++++++ and on and on without ever getting to 3.14160. Totality is an irrational number if number it we must. Not irrational in the loco sense. Irrational in the nonrational sense. Transrational. So we might number existence 1.999999999999999999999999 and on and on without ever reaching 2. The Whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Synergy. More than one, but less than two. Undivided. Nondual. Whole. The tao that can be numbered is not the eternal Tao. We tend to make gods of taos all the while the Tao goes everywhere unnoticed. I hope these words are of some help. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map. Posted by Wayne L. on 4/12/2009, 12:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 76.87.4.X The Reality of any and everything that is not readily apparent, universal in nature, that is not measurable as to location and or momentum in Time and or Space required Faith. I know not whose offspring it is, it seems as though it is the Preface of God. Nameless is the cause of the Heavens and the Earth.  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map. Posted by ren ying on 4/13/2009, 2:12 am, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 85.181.26.X : I know not whose offspring it is, it seems : as though it is the Preface of God. : to translate chinese sentences is very difficult - --- here an example: kidney 6: zhao hai there are people who translate: ocean of enlightment -- others translate radiator for ocean of qi -- i dont think that your quote has anything to do with laozi daodejing 4  Post a Response

zhao hai and qi hai Posted by ren ying on 4/13/2009, 5:52 am, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 85.181.39.X example: : kidney 6: : zhao hai : there are people who translate: : ocean of enlightment : -- : others translate : radiator for ocean of qi a common translation is "Shining sea" --- Now you should know this: Qi-gong practitioners know about this point: using lotus-posture this point sends qi to lower belly, which is also called qi hai - sea of energy....  Post a Response

Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced. Posted by josef on 4/13/2009, 8:17 am, in reply to "Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced." 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : josef, : : In a nutshell. : : Existence is a nonlinear function. Its : nature is more a quality than a quantity. So : if we must number it then we should use a : number that is representative of it nature, : of its quality. : : Unity cannot properly be numbered as One : unless it is described as a : "Unitive" One. An integrated : whole. Thus the number of existence is an : irrational number. Think Pi. : 3.14159+++++++++++++++++++++ and on and on : without ever getting to 3.14160. Totality is : an irrational number if number it we must. : Not irrational in the loco sense. Irrational : in the nonrational sense. Transrational. : : So we might number existence : 1.999999999999999999999999 and on and on : without ever reaching 2. The Whole is : greater than the sum of its parts. Synergy. : More than one, but less than two. Undivided. : Nondual. Whole. : : The tao that can be numbered is not the : eternal Tao. : : We tend to make gods of taos all the while : the Tao goes everywhere unnoticed. : : I hope these words are of some help. : : Butcho : Butcho, my experience of thoughts, of mind, of the action of ego and emotion in mind affirms what I read in Taoist texts, and is in agreement with what I read in your words. What then causes me a little "whut?" in reading your posts is your addition of such as this: "Monism leads to all sorts of solipsistic perspectives. If all is numerically one then I am God. If all is n one then nothing matters. If all is n one then my god is the God. If all is n one then nothing is real. It is all just a play on words." Your understanding of these things is very akin to mine. Then you make what seems to me a leap in relating it to "God", and there for me is that little "Whut? How did God get into this?", as I don't assume, presume, or even lean toward your conclusions that it all relates to God. I spent most of my life a devout Catholic. A spirit of real inquiry and years of meditation have brought me to now seeing the concept of God as only another reification, (the word is defined by traditions). Having been a person of deep faith, I know it as a subtle and pervasive frame of reference. As I no longer have it as a frame of reference, when you relate things to God, our agreement veers off; this is where any hitches in understanding happen between us, I think. Our experiences so similar, our frame of reference in understanding them different. So we can speak of process, all is a unitive one, of energy and matter, thought, mind and emotions, these things we all can relate to. God as a reality and experience not all relate to, so discussions can get hung up there. This isn't resolvable, imo. Living in the Bible Belt, as I do, I respect those who believe, find most sincere and good people, but I understand their "given" is not mine, so any discussion will not go far to mutual benefit. Enough to accept each other and not expect our life views to agree. This is easier for me; they feel sadness we non-believers are not "saved" and pray for us, feel sorry for us, know us to be wrong. Oh, well. :-) peace and namaste, josef  Post a Response

Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced. Posted by Butcho on 4/13/2009, 9:46 am, in reply to "Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced." 71.30.137.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : josef, : : In a nutshell. : : Existence is a nonlinear function. Its : nature is more a quality than a quantity. So : if we must number it then we should use a : number that is representative of it nature, : of its quality. : : Unity cannot properly be numbered as One : unless it is described as a : "Unitive" One. An integrated : whole. Thus the number of existence is an : irrational number. Think Pi. : 3.14159+++++++++++++++++++++ and on and on : without ever getting to 3.14160. Totality is : an irrational number if number it we must. : Not irrational in the loco sense. Irrational : in the nonrational sense. Transrational. : : So we might number existence : 1.999999999999999999999999 and on and on : without ever reaching 2. The Whole is : greater than the sum of its parts. Synergy. : More than one, but less than two. Undivided. : Nondual. Whole. : : The tao that can be numbered is not the : eternal Tao. : : We tend to make gods of taos all the while : the Tao goes everywhere unnoticed. : : I hope these words are of some help. : : Butcho : : Butcho, my experience of thoughts, of mind, : of the action of ego and emotion in mind : affirms what I read in Taoist texts, and is : in agreement with what I read in your words. : What then causes me a little : "whut?" in reading your posts is : your addition of such as this: : : "Monism leads to all sorts of : solipsistic perspectives. If all is : numerically one then I am God. If all is n : one then nothing matters. If all is n one : then my god is the God. If all is n one then : nothing is real. It is all just a play on : words." : : Your understanding of these things is very : akin to mine. Then you make what seems to me : a leap in relating it to "God", : and there for me is that little "Whut? : How did God get into this?", as I don't : assume, presume, or even lean toward your : conclusions that it all relates to God. : : I spent most of my life a devout Catholic. A : spirit of real inquiry and years of : meditation have brought me to now seeing the : concept of God as only another reification, : (the word is defined by traditions). : : Having been a person of deep faith, I know : it as a subtle and pervasive frame of : reference. As I no longer have it as a frame : of reference, when you relate things to God, : our agreement veers off; this is where any : hitches in understanding happen between us, : I think. Our experiences so similar, our : frame of reference in understanding them : different. So we can speak of process, all : is a unitive one, of energy and matter, : thought, mind and emotions, these things we : all can relate to. God as a reality and : experience not all relate to, so discussions : can get hung up there. : : This isn't resolvable, imo. Living in the : Bible Belt, as I do, I respect those who : believe, find most sincere and good people, : but I understand their "given" is : not mine, so any discussion will not go far : to mutual benefit. : : Enough to accept each other and not expect : our life views to agree. This is easier for : me; they feel sadness we non-believers are : not "saved" and pray for us, feel : sorry for us, know us to be wrong. Oh, well. : :-) : : peace and namaste, : : josef : : : josef, The gods I have a problem with are the solely male or female ones and/or the wholly separate. Nor do I bow to vengeful gods. For me it is obvious that god has both male and female characteristics. The Tao has two sides. Two opposite non-opposite sides. Yin/Yang. And for me it helps to personify god. To see god as having human characteristics. The best of our characteristics. God is Love. That sort of thing. Besides, I find it harder to believe that a nonpersonal god could create personal beings than a personal one. I believe in a Creator. Our present Universe we find ourselves in came into existence about 13.7 Billion years ago, the Big Bang. This is one of the most certain theories in Science. In the begining God created, the eternal Tao created, the Great Spirit in the Sky created, or is the Source of... "From the Tao comes the One and the Many." Lao Tzu. This is the way I see It. Now, you say that you really don't want to talk about such things, gods. That we can talk about process but not any of my reifications. I am sorry josef but I think all words are reifications. As such, I simply cannot allow you to determine the boundaries of our dialogue where the nature of existence is concerned. If you don't agree with me, fine. But I will continue to put forth my opinion just the same. I have tried very hard to not take any hard line stances where my opinions are concerned other than my stance that from the first totality is a unitive one. Oneness is my mantra, not the One. Oneness being process oriented. The One being the most absurd of all reifications in my opinion. I try to take an Agnostic tack wherever I go. I see all of the varieties of enlightened experience much as the blind men and the elephant. Each perspective touching upon a different aspect of an underlying unity. And, quite frankly, I get attacked by just about everyone. Everyone that has staked out a leg or a foot or an ear or a trunk of the elephant. And also by those that claim there is no elephant at all. You can't please everyone, so you gotta please yourself. I'll not change my stance for any naysayer. I know what I know. Do I know It all. Of course not. But I have experienced the underlying unity of existence more times than I can remember and for me they are the most real experiences of my life. It is when I feel most awake. Born again. I will not apologize or deny my reality for anyone. I try to be nice. Jesus said love even your enemies. Talk about someone that knew deep down in his bones the unity of existence. Talk about tough standards. Love even your enemies... But he did not say that a person had to like them. I will quote him just as surely as I will quote the Buddha or Lao Tzu. For me the 'words' God and Tao are interchangeable for to me they are merely symbols pointing at the same ineffable reality that all the great sages and mystics of every time and every place have pointed and continue to point to. "The Love/Religion has no codes or doctrine. Only Love." Rumi. Namaste, Butcho  Post a Response

Re: zhao hai and qi hai Posted by Butcho on 4/13/2009, 9:54 am, in reply to "zhao hai and qi hai" 71.30.137.X --Previous Message-- : : example: : kidney 6: : zhao hai : there are people who translate: : ocean of enlightment : -- : others translate : radiator for ocean of qi : : a common translation is : "Shining sea" : --- : Now you should know this: : Qi-gong practitioners know about this point: : using lotus-posture : this point sends qi to lower belly, which is : also called qi hai - sea of energy.... : ren ying, In my opinion you have been seduced by the dark side of the Force. It is one thing to aspire to be more awake, quite another to aspire to be less human. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced. Posted by josef on 4/13/2009, 10:20 am, in reply to "Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced." 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : josef, : : The gods I have a problem with are the : solely male or female ones and/or the wholly : separate. Nor do I bow to vengeful gods. : : For me it is obvious that god has both male : and female characteristics. The Tao has two : sides. Two opposite non-opposite sides. : Yin/Yang. : : And for me it helps to personify god. To see : god as having human characteristics. The : best of our characteristics. God is Love. : That sort of thing. Besides, I find it : harder to believe that a nonpersonal god : could create personal beings than a personal : one. ~~~All the above presumes the existence of God, which I don't share (which was my point). The anthropomorphic God is even less credible to me. HOWEVER, I was not trying to argue you out of your beliefs, only describing where are misunderstandings are probably occurring. : : I believe in a Creator. Our present Universe : we find ourselves in came into existence : about 13.7 Billion years ago, the Big Bang. : This is one of the most certain theories in : Science. In the begining God created, the : eternal Tao created, the Great Spirit in the : Sky created, or is the Source of... : "From the Tao comes the One and the : Many." Lao Tzu. : : This is the way I see It. Now, you say that : you really don't want to talk about such : things, gods. That we can talk about process : but not any of my reifications. I am sorry : josef but I think all words are : reifications. As such, I simply cannot allow : you to determine the boundaries of our : dialogue where the nature of existence is : concerned. If you don't agree with me, fine. : But I will continue to put forth my opinion : just the same. I have tried very hard to not : take any hard line stances where my opinions : are concerned other than my stance that from : the first totality is a unitive one. Oneness : is my mantra, not the One. Oneness being : process oriented. The One being the most : absurd of all reifications in my opinion. ~~~I didn't say I don't want to talk about such thing, gods, I only clarified the place where our views begin to differ. I'm not trying "to determine the boundaries of our dialogue", am only observing the dynamic of different perspectives to perhaps remove confusion when we're communicating, telling you where I am coming from, as you put it. For instance,one little point, you say: " The One being the most absurd of all reifications in my opinion", and yet that is one of the most frequent references to God. : : I try to take an Agnostic tack wherever I : go. I see all of the varieties of : enlightened experience much as the blind men : and the elephant. Each perspective touching : upon a different aspect of an underlying : unity. And, quite frankly, I get attacked by : just about everyone. Everyone that has : staked out a leg or a foot or an ear or a : trunk of the elephant. And also by those : that claim there is no elephant at all. You : can't please everyone, so you gotta please : yourself. ~~~Definite agreement there. : : I'll not change my stance for any naysayer. : I know what I know. Do I know It all. Of : course not. But I have experienced the : underlying unity of existence more times : than I can remember and for me they are the : most real experiences of my life. It is when : I feel most awake. Born again. I will not : apologize or deny my reality for anyone. ~~~You can't label me naysayer, as I didn't say there is no God, only that it seems to me only a reification. Butcho, I'm not challenging you in the least. : : I try to be nice. Jesus said love even your : enemies. Talk about someone that knew deep : down in his bones the unity of existence. : Talk about tough standards. Love even your : enemies... But he did not say that a person : had to like them. I will quote him just as : surely as I will quote the Buddha or Lao : Tzu. : : For me the 'words' God and Tao are : interchangeable for to me they are merely : symbols pointing at the same ineffable : reality that all the great sages and mystics : of every time and every place have pointed : and continue to point to. "The : Love/Religion has no codes or doctrine. Only : Love." Rumi. ~~~Ah, so. The words God and Tao are interchangeable for you. For me they are not. That's all. Nothing complicated or important. :-) In this exchange I see we more clearly grok where the other is coming from, and that was all I was aiming for. Namaste, josef  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map. Posted by Wayne L. on 4/13/2009, 2:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : : I know not whose offspring it is, it seems : as though it is the Preface of God. : : : to translate chinese sentences is very : difficult - : --- : here an example: : kidney 6: : zhao hai : there are people who translate: : ocean of enlightment : -- : others translate : radiator for ocean of qi : -- : i dont think that your quote has anything to : do with laozi daodejing 4 My quote varies little from the Translations of Tao Te Ching below. I prefer Son but chose off spring so as not to appear sexist. I Quote! EXACTLY! Lao Tzu; Tao Te Ching; D.C.Lau I know not whose son it is. It images the forefather of God. The Way of Life; Lao Tzu; R. B. Blakney. Whose off spring it may be I do not Know; It is like a preface to God. Tao; A New Way of Thinking; Chang Chung-yuan; I do not know who created it, But it is likely that it existed prior to God. The Wisdom of Laotse; Edited by Lin Yutang; I do not know whose Son it is, an Image of what existed before God.  Post a Response

Re: zhao hai and qi hai Posted by Wayne L. on 4/13/2009, 3:05 pm, in reply to "zhao hai and qi hai" 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : : example: : kidney 6: : zhao hai : there are people who translate: : ocean of enlightment : -- : others translate : radiator for ocean of qi : : a common translation is : "Shining sea" : --- : Now you should know this: : Qi-gong practitioners know about this point: : using lotus-posture : this point sends qi to lower belly, which is : also called qi hai - sea of energy.... To have a gut feeling is to believe in something that you are not sure of. The Desire, the Hope, for something that may not come to fruition will make you, Nauseous, sick to you stomach, feel Sea sick  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map. Posted by ren ying on 4/14/2009, 1:53 am, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 85.181.29.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : I know not whose offspring it is, it seems : as though it is the Preface of God. : : : to translate chinese sentences is very : difficult - : --- : here an example: : kidney 6: : zhao hai : there are people who translate: : ocean of enlightment : -- : others translate : radiator for ocean of qi : -- : i dont think that your quote has anything to : do with laozi daodejing 4 : : : : My quote varies little from the Translations : of Tao Te Ching below. : : : I prefer Son but chose off spring so as not : to appear sexist. : : : I Quote! EXACTLY! : : : Lao Tzu; Tao Te Ching; D.C.Lau : : I know not whose son it is. : It images the forefather of God. : : : The Way of Life; Lao Tzu; R. B. Blakney. : : Whose off spring it may be I do not Know; : It is like a preface to God. : : Tao; A New Way of Thinking; Chang : Chung-yuan; : : I do not know who created it, But it is : likely that it existed prior to God. : : The Wisdom of Laotse; Edited by Lin Yutang; : : I do not know whose Son it is, an Image of : what existed before God. : : : thats just the problem.. since you have no knowledge of chinese you are unable to decide whether the translators use their faith for understanding and translating...  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map. Posted by Butcho on 4/14/2009, 9:59 am, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 162.39.184.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : I know not whose offspring it is, it seems : as though it is the Preface of God. : : : to translate chinese sentences is very : difficult - : --- : here an example: : kidney 6: : zhao hai : there are people who translate: : ocean of enlightment : -- : others translate : radiator for ocean of qi : -- : i dont think that your quote has anything to : do with laozi daodejing 4 : : : : My quote varies little from the Translations : of Tao Te Ching below. : : : I prefer Son but chose off spring so as not : to appear sexist. : : : I Quote! EXACTLY! : : : Lao Tzu; Tao Te Ching; D.C.Lau : : I know not whose son it is. : It images the forefather of God. : : : The Way of Life; Lao Tzu; R. B. Blakney. : : Whose off spring it may be I do not Know; : It is like a preface to God. : : Tao; A New Way of Thinking; Chang : Chung-yuan; : : I do not know who created it, But it is : likely that it existed prior to God. : : The Wisdom of Laotse; Edited by Lin Yutang; : : I do not know whose Son it is, an Image of : what existed before God. : : : : thats just the problem.. : since you have no knowledge of chinese : you are unable to decide whether the : translators use their faith for : understanding and translating... : : ren ying, imo, in your pursuit of an exact translation you have set for yourself an impossible standard. An extreme standard. An unrealistic standard. An unTaoist standard. And, imo, that you criticize others for not becoming as obsessed about the exactness of translating the ancient Chinese as you yourself are says more about you than it does about them. The Tao Te Ching is poetry. A finger-painting of what it is like to be fully human. Integrated and no longer fragmented. Not a paint-by-the-numbers picture of what is what, but a glimpse into that which cannot be seen by the very processes you insist are most important, the rational processes of the conditioned mind. You can't get there from here. Or at least there are far easier ways. The easy way of the middle way. The watercourse way of the Tao. Feel. Trust your feelings ren ying. Follow the grain. It seems to me that you want to bring absolute control to that which is beyond control. You deny other's gods but would make a god of yourself. I don't think this was your original intention. But I think this is where you currently are. You have a great deal of expertise where the ancient Chinese language is concerned. I believe that. But you need to temper your need to be in control if you want to be of service to others less knowledgeable than yourself. And, it wouldn't do you any harm if you would take a dose of humility while you are at it. Wisdom is greater than knowledge where the existential is concerned. Until you know this, you know nothing. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: "Chop wood, carry water." Posted by asininity on 4/14/2009, 1:41 pm, in reply to "Re: "Chop wood, carry water."" 92.235.24.X --Previous Message-- : I believe in the reality of Myth! : : The only problem being that we speak in : metaphors. : : I am of the opinion that there must have : been a civilization far greater advanced : than our own thousands of years ago. : : How many years ago? Eons, Eons, Eons, ago. : I know what you mean they were a space faring people on the run from an evil cyborg/robot genocide of their space colonies. They were searching for the last colony but found it to be ages destroyed, they settled on earth at the dawn of mankind and sent all their technology into the sun so they could start again. They taught us to farm.  Post a Response

Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map. Posted by Wayne L. on 4/14/2009, 6:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei or the Highway Map." 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : to translate chinese sentences is very : difficult - : --- : here an example: : kidney 6: : zhao hai : there are people who translate: : ocean of enlightment : -- : others translate : radiator for ocean of qi : -- : i dont think that your quote has anything to : do with laozi daodejing 4 : : : : My quote varies little from the Translations : of Tao Te Ching below. : : : I prefer Son but chose off spring so as not : to appear sexist. : : : I Quote! EXACTLY! : : : Lao Tzu; Tao Te Ching; D.C.Lau : : I know not whose son it is. : It images the forefather of God. : : : The Way of Life; Lao Tzu; R. B. Blakney. : : Whose off spring it may be I do not Know; : It is like a preface to God. : : Tao; A New Way of Thinking; Chang : Chung-yuan; : : I do not know who created it, But it is : likely that it existed prior to God. : : The Wisdom of Laotse; Edited by Lin Yutang; : : I do not know whose Son it is, an Image of : what existed before God. : --------------------------------------------------- : : thats just the problem.. : since you have no knowledge of chinese : you are unable to decide whether the : translators use their faith for : understanding and translating... -------------------------------------- I agree!!! However!!! I have a gut feeling that you all people, if you think about it, will realize that Chinese is pure symbolism and can not be translated, must be interpreted. English as exact as it is can not be translated, all language must be interpreted.  Post a Response

Re: "Chop wood, carry water." Posted by Wayne L. on 4/15/2009, 6:16 pm, in reply to "Re: "Chop wood, carry water."" 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : I know what you mean they were a space : faring people on the run from an evil : cyborg/robot genocide of their space : colonies. They were searching for the last : colony but found it to be ages destroyed, : they settled on earth at the dawn of mankind : and sent all their technology into the sun : so they could start again. They taught us to : farm. : Your post does not warrant a response.  Post a Response

Re: The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced. Posted by Wayne L. on 4/16/2009, 9:12 am, in reply to "The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced." 76.87.4.X --Previous Message-- : : I can see how someone might live in total : silence. Someone so in tune with reality as : it is as to find words pointless. : Namaste, : : Butcho A Wise Man is very cautious when speaking things that have no point of reference. There is more to Reality than meets the Eye, that one can taste, that one can feel, than one can touch, than one can taste! The one that knows, has knowledge of, that understands what Reality is does not say simply because he or she can not put it into words; which does not mean that None will ever be able to speak of Reality. A Wise person has enough sense of it does not speak of it simply because he or she believe that it is foolish to speak of, that which exist beyond the Material, the Single True Nature of the Universe, of the Reality of Everything, TOE, Boundlessness, Absolute Freedom No One lives in total silence, with only a few being silent when it come speaking of something they know nothing about; Eve having been beguiled, most now have Knowledge of the Reality of Everything, at least they think they does. Speaking as though one has knowledge of the Reality the Reality of Everything, TOE, speaks more of how little they really know, than how much they Truly Know.. Being Omniscient, a Know-it-all, is not the way to fly. A person is wise not to speak of things that are not readily apparent, universal in nature, that are immeasurable as to location and or momentum in Time and or Space; the knowledge, the understanding of such things being way to personal for a Wise Man to speak of as being the Absolute Truth..  Post a Response

Re: "Chop wood, carry water." Posted by asininity on 4/17/2009, 1:49 am, in reply to "Re: "Chop wood, carry water."" 92.235.24.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : I know what you mean they were a space : faring people on the run from an evil : cyborg/robot genocide of their space : colonies. They were searching for the last : colony but found it to be ages destroyed, : they settled on earth at the dawn of mankind : and sent all their technology into the sun : so they could start again. They taught us to : farm. : : : : : Your post does not warrant a response. : But you couldn't help yourself could you. You should have written: "Your post does not warrant a response... shit!"  Post a Response

To experience is to know. Posted by asininity on 4/17/2009, 2:21 am, in reply to "The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced." 92.235.24.X Popeye, You speak too much I thought is was nicely summed up in one of your quotes by Mr Maharshi. The pulpit is a hard place to leave is it not. "We are reality in search of reality." I disagree with your title: "The Mystery of mysteries cannot be known, but it can be experienced." To experience is to know. --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : josef, : : I quite agree. Words are symbols. They : represent something other than themselves. : To the degree that we are caught up in them : we are caught up in a symbolic world, not : the world as it is. A map rather than what : the map is a map of. : : Such is the nature of words if carried to : extreme. They are useful, but they are most : useful when we realize they are essentially : superfluous in and of themselves. : : Nothing wrong with a map as long as we : remember it is just a model and not the : reality it represents. : : All of our concepts are models. : : Butcho : : Because we both understand this clearly, not : mistaking the map for the territory, I can : speak to about something that intrigures me. : The very curious question of what actual : reality the model/concept represents in : words such as god or love. Don't we presume, : as a result of our conditioning/taught : beliefs a reality that may or may not even : exist? Here's where Mystery lives for me. : Detaching from conceptual, reified givens, : assumptions fall away in all directions. : Mystery remains. Interest. : Then...indifference to the concepts, and : engagement with what is as it is without : interpretation or assumptions. A radically : different life, something like divorced from : context while still understanding and : appreciating the context others live in. : : Does this make any sense to you? : : josef, : : I can see how someone might live in total : silence. Someone so in tune with reality as : it is as to find words pointless. We are : told that the Buddha never wrote anything : down himself. That the words of the Buddha : that have been passed down to us were : recorded by others. It is also said that Zen : was born when the Buddha said nothing but : smiled as he held up a lotus flower and a : kindred spirit in the crowd smiled in : return. Laughed even. Thus the transmission : of that which cannot be said in words began. : The transference of the key without : scripture to the first key holder. : Mahakashyap. : : The key to all the teachings, all the words : that are pointing at the moon--be they the : words of the Buddha, of Lao Tzu, or Jesus, : cannot itself be communicated through words : to the person that has not experienced : reality as it is for themselves. Reality is : not what we 'think' it is, or what we have : been told it is. The key cannot be delivered : through the ordinary mind, the conditioned : mind, the egoistic mind. And with that said : the more that is said the more difficult it : becomes to be understood. Thus it is said : that the Buddha spent the last forty years : of his life talking about not talking. : : Two truly enlightened people, two sages, : have nothing to say to each other. This : though only a Buddha can understand what it : is a Buddha is saying. Unenlightened people : talk all of the time... Be nice. But such is : the path of the Bodhicitta. The path of : words. The path of pointing with words at : the moon to those that have not seen the : moon for themselves in the hope that : something that is said might gestate an : ephiphany in another. In one that has not : directly experienced the unitive nature of : existence for oneself. For the self that has : experienced the Self that is not a self in : the normative sense of a separate : existential self. The selfless self. : : We are each a part of that which has no : parts. Not one, but a unitive one. Not : monolithic but manifold. More than one, but : less than two. Undivided. Nondual. Whole. A : reality greater than the sum of its parts. A : Whole so full that it is even full of : emptiness. An Emptiness that is empty of : full and empty, of dualistic concepts. Of : words. Of division. : : Thus the Zen masters speak of the : transference of the key without scripture. : Beyond scripture. Beyond words. Beyond : discursive intellection. Beyond mind in the : normative or conditioned sense. : : Talk to the trees, to the flowers, to the : animals, for they will truly listen. And : truly speak. : : We are not our thoughts for they come and go : as do all things. We are not a thing. We are : no thing. Pure awareness, spirit, is not a : thing. Brain waves can be measured for they : have a material reality. Spirit comes before : thought. Mind over matter so to speak. We : are not evolving nearly so much as we are : unfolding. : : The conditioned mind has its rules. This is : this, that is that. So on and so on and so : forth. The mystic heart has only one rule. : "From the first totality is a unitive : one." Hui-Neng. : : Silence within, laughter without. The : greatest joke being, "We are reality in : search of reality." Ramana Maharshi. : : We are not alone. We are all-one. The game : being played by existence is not Solitaire. : It is a game of Hearts. Or in Christian : vernacular the Kingdom of God is not a : person, it is a family. : : I AM THAT I AM. Or you can just call me : Popeye like my friend assinity likes to do. : : Namaste, : : Butcho : : : : :  Post a Response

Re: To experience is to know. Posted by Butcho on 4/17/2009, 7:04 am, in reply to "To experience is to know." 71.28.136.X --Previous Message-- : Popeye, : : You speak too much I thought is was nicely : summed up in one of your quotes by Mr : Maharshi. The pulpit is a hard place to : leave is it not. : : "We are reality in search of : reality." : : I disagree with your title: : : "The Mystery of mysteries cannot be : known, but it can be experienced." : : To experience is to know. : : --Previous Message-- assinity, "The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced." Aart Van der Leeuw You say to experience is to know. I say yes and no. Know what I mean? There is think you knowing, and then there is know you knowing. And the only way to know the difference is through not knowing. It is the conditioned mind, the ego, the learned sense of self, wherein one thinks one knows this or that when in fact one knows nothing if that is all one knows. To truly know one must go beyond knowing in the conventional sense. In the dualistic or fallen sense. Do you really want to know? Do you really want to know, punk? Then sit down and shut up. Me eats me spinach, Butcho the Army Man  Post a Response

Re: "Chop wood, carry water." Posted by Butcho on 4/17/2009, 7:32 am, in reply to "Re: "Chop wood, carry water."" 71.28.136.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : I know what you mean they were a space : faring people on the run from an evil : cyborg/robot genocide of their space : colonies. They were searching for the last : colony but found it to be ages destroyed, : they settled on earth at the dawn of mankind : and sent all their technology into the sun : so they could start again. They taught us to : farm. : : : : : Your post does not warrant a response. : : : But you couldn't help yourself could you. : You should have written: : : "Your post does not warrant a : response... shit!" : assinity, It is tripe like yours that gives us mystics a bad name. But then again, you could be right. Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. About the Aliens teaching us how to farm and burning their technology up in the sun. I have heard stranger tales. One thing is clear. Something catastrophic happened on Earth about 12,000 years ago. Something caused a great flood. The fall of Atlantis. Of the advanced civilization of the time. Many believe it was either due to a Comet or a Supernovae remnant. Of a fallen star. The morning star. Lucifer in Judaic legend, probably borrowed from the Babylonian Azazel. Phaeton in Greek myth. "Phaeton", aye, now theres a tale worth telling. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: "Chop wood, carry water." Posted by asininity on 4/17/2009, 9:29 am, in reply to "Re: "Chop wood, carry water."" 92.235.24.X popeye, You've missed my point and you dont watch battlestar gallactica. You should read forbidden archaeology. Anyway my story is based on as much fact as the story of atlantis. Some believe the floor was caused by a landslide and/or volcano. Its all speculation though and as much use. --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : I know what you mean they were a space : faring people on the run from an evil : cyborg/robot genocide of their space : colonies. They were searching for the last : colony but found it to be ages destroyed, : they settled on earth at the dawn of mankind : and sent all their technology into the sun : so they could start again. They taught us to : farm. : : : : : Your post does not warrant a response. : : : But you couldn't help yourself could you. : You should have written: : : "Your post does not warrant a : response... shit!" : : assinity, : : It is tripe like yours that gives us mystics : a bad name. : : But then again, you could be right. Even a : blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. : About the Aliens teaching us how to farm and : burning their technology up in the sun. I : have heard stranger tales. : : One thing is clear. Something catastrophic : happened on Earth about 12,000 years ago. : Something caused a great flood. The fall of : Atlantis. Of the advanced civilization of : the time. Many believe it was either due to : a Comet or a Supernovae remnant. Of a fallen : star. The morning star. Lucifer in Judaic : legend, probably borrowed from the : Babylonian Azazel. Phaeton in Greek myth. : "Phaeton", aye, now theres a tale : worth telling. : : Butcho :  Post a Response

Re: To experience is to know. Posted by asininity on 4/17/2009, 12:50 pm, in reply to "Re: To experience is to know." 92.235.24.X Popeye, Without experience you wouldn't be able to know anything. Untinted experience is the goal of the sage. Are you able to do this? Even a sages experience is subjective, it can not be any other way. --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Popeye, : : You speak too much I thought is was nicely : summed up in one of your quotes by Mr : Maharshi. The pulpit is a hard place to : leave is it not. : : "We are reality in search of : reality." : : I disagree with your title: : : "The Mystery of mysteries cannot be : known, but it can be experienced." : : To experience is to know. : : --Previous Message-- : : assinity, : : : "The mystery of life is not a problem : to be solved but a reality to be : experienced." Aart Van der Leeuw : : You say to experience is to know. I say yes : and no. Know what I mean? There is think you : knowing, and then there is know you knowing. : And the only way to know the difference is : through not knowing. : : It is the conditioned mind, the ego, the : learned sense of self, wherein one thinks : one knows this or that when in fact one : knows nothing if that is all one knows. To : truly know one must go beyond knowing in the : conventional sense. In the dualistic or : fallen sense. Do you really want to know? Do : you really want to know, punk? : : Then sit down and shut up. : : Me eats me spinach, : : Butcho the Army Man : : :  Post a Response

Re: To experience is to know. Posted by Butcho on 4/17/2009, 2:13 pm, in reply to "Re: To experience is to know." 75.88.40.X asininity, Subjective is just the opposite pole of Objective. The sage is not pointing at a state of thinking. Subjective or otherwise. He/she is pointing at a state of being beyond the normative states of mind. At a transrational state of being wherein the false dichotomies of duality evaporate like a morning fog. Butcho --Previous Message-- : Popeye, : : Without experience you wouldn't be able to : know anything. : : Untinted experience is the goal of the sage. : Are you able to do this? : : Even a sages experience is subjective, it : can not be any other way. : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Popeye, : : You speak too much I thought is was nicely : summed up in one of your quotes by Mr : Maharshi. The pulpit is a hard place to : leave is it not. : : "We are reality in search of : reality." : : I disagree with your title: : : "The Mystery of mysteries cannot be : known, but it can be experienced." : : To experience is to know. : : --Previous Message-- : : assinity, : : : "The mystery of life is not a problem : to be solved but a reality to be : experienced." Aart Van der Leeuw : : You say to experience is to know. I say yes : and no. Know what I mean? There is think you : knowing, and then there is know you knowing. : And the only way to know the difference is : through not knowing. : : It is the conditioned mind, the ego, the : learned sense of self, wherein one thinks : one knows this or that when in fact one : knows nothing if that is all one knows. To : truly know one must go beyond knowing in the : conventional sense. In the dualistic or : fallen sense. Do you really want to know? Do : you really want to know, punk? : : Then sit down and shut up. : : Me eats me spinach, : : Butcho the Army Man : : : : :  Post a Response

Re: To experience is to know. Posted by asininity on 4/18/2009, 2:57 am, in reply to "Re: To experience is to know." 92.235.24.X Butcho, I'm not talking a state of mind. Subjectivity is beyond the polar opposites of subjectivity and objectivity. Experience is done through the senses. No ones senses are exactly the same even if fully functioning. A blind mans experience is very different from the deaf mans. You can reach as you put it: "a transrational state of being wherein the false dichotomies of duality evaporate like a morning fog." But your pure experience/enlightenment will be different from mine, as ours (assuming you have all your senses) will be different from the blind and deaf mans. --Previous Message-- : asininity, : : Subjective is just the opposite pole of : Objective. : : The sage is not pointing at a state of : thinking. Subjective or otherwise. : : He/she is pointing at a state of being : beyond the normative states of mind. At a : transrational state of being wherein the : false dichotomies of duality evaporate like : a morning fog. : : Butcho : : --Previous Message-- : Popeye, : : Without experience you wouldn't be able to : know anything. : : Untinted experience is the goal of the sage. : Are you able to do this? : : Even a sages experience is subjective, it : can not be any other way. : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Popeye, : : You speak too much I thought is was nicely : summed up in one of your quotes by Mr : Maharshi. The pulpit is a hard place to : leave is it not. : : "We are reality in search of : reality." : : I disagree with your title: : : "The Mystery of mysteries cannot be : known, but it can be experienced." : : To experience is to know. : : --Previous Message-- : : assinity, : : : "The mystery of life is not a problem : to be solved but a reality to be : experienced." Aart Van der Leeuw : : You say to experience is to know. I say yes : and no. Know what I mean? There is think you : knowing, and then there is know you knowing. : And the only way to know the difference is : through not knowing. : : It is the conditioned mind, the ego, the : learned sense of self, wherein one thinks : one knows this or that when in fact one : knows nothing if that is all one knows. To : truly know one must go beyond knowing in the : conventional sense. In the dualistic or : fallen sense. Do you really want to know? Do : you really want to know, punk? : : Then sit down and shut up. : : Me eats me spinach, : : Butcho the Army Man : : : : : : :  Post a Response

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