[ Tao Speaks ]

Jewish Buddhism with a Dash of Taoism thrown in for good Zen. Posted by Butcho on 2/3/2009, 2:30 pm 75.88.46.X "Notice the way God does things; then fall into line. Don't fight the ways of God, for who can straighten out what he has made crooked? Enjoy prosperity while you can. But when hard times strike, realize that both come from God. That way you will realize that nothing is certain in this life. In this meaningless life, I have seen everything, including the fact that some wicked people live on and on. So don't be too good or too wise! Why destroy yourself? On the other hand, don't be too wicked either--don't be a fool! Why should you die before your time? So try to walk a middle course--but those who fear God will succeed either way." Ecclesiastes, 7:13-18, New Living Translation. Butcho  Post a Response

fear God? Posted by Steve on 2/3/2009, 2:54 pm, in reply to "Jewish Buddhism with a Dash of Taoism thrown in for good Zen." 69.138.195.X : "Notice the way God does things; then : fall into line. Don't fight the ways of God, : for who can straighten out what he has made : crooked? : : Enjoy prosperity while you can. But when : hard times strike, realize that both come : from God. That way you will realize that : nothing is certain in this life. : : In this meaningless life, I have seen : everything, including the fact that some : wicked people live on and on. So don't be : too good or too wise! Why destroy yourself? : On the other hand, don't be too wicked : either--don't be a fool! Why should you die : before your time? So try to walk a middle : course--but those who fear God will succeed : either way." : : Ecclesiastes, 7:13-18, New Living : Translation. : : Butcho ------------------------ I was groovin' with it, Butcho. Loving it. Then I got to the 'fear God' thingy. What's with that shit...'fear God'? Aside from the usual and useful stuff--like fear of walking off a cliff or sitting on a scorpion--can you think of anything to really fear? Steve  Post a Response

to christians and unevolved pond life everywhere Posted by Lian Dao on 2/4/2009, 1:19 am, in reply to "fear God?" 78.149.97.X --Previous Message-- : : "Notice the way God does things; then : fall into line. Don't fight the ways of God, : for who can straighten out what he has made : crooked? : : Enjoy prosperity while you can. But when : hard times strike, realize that both come : from God. That way you will realize that : nothing is certain in this life. : : In this meaningless life, I have seen : everything, including the fact that some : wicked people live on and on. So don't be : too good or too wise! Why destroy yourself? : On the other hand, don't be too wicked : either--don't be a fool! Why should you die : before your time? So try to walk a middle : course--but those who fear God will succeed : either way." : : Ecclesiastes, 7:13-18, New Living : Translation. : : Butcho : : ------------------------ : : I was groovin' with it, Butcho. Loving it. : Then I got to the 'fear God' thingy. : : What's with that shit...'fear God'? : : Aside from the usual and useful stuff--like : fear of walking off a cliff or sitting on a : scorpion--can you think of anything to : really fear? : Obviously Butch and i aren't talking cos he said some mean stuff about me and there aint no mods around to avenge my delicate little ego but i will say this, if you'd be kind enough to pass it on to him, Steve. Who is this god doing things, where is he doing them from and why is he doing them to us?  Post a Response

Note to lurkers: Tao Speaks loves Christians Posted by Steve on 2/4/2009, 8:36 am, in reply to "to christians and unevolved pond life everywhere" 69.138.195.X : Obviously Butch and i aren't talking cos he : said some mean stuff about me and there aint : no mods around to avenge my delicate little : ego but i will say this, if you'd be kind : enough to pass it on to him, Steve. : : Who is this god doing things, where is he : doing them from and why is he doing them to : us? --------------------------- Oy. Cultivators and their dueling egos. Again. Here are the answers to your questions, Lian Dao. 1) God is like the dao--but with balls. 2) He operates out of heaven. If you have balls, you have to operate out of somewhere. 3) He does what he does because he loves us, and because he can. When you have balls, you have to prove it.  Post a Response

Re: fear God? same shit Posted by rat on 2/4/2009, 8:58 am, in reply to "fear God?" 76.203.173.X So try to walk a middle course--but those who fear God will succeed either way." What's with that shit...'fear God'? That is the same shit Steve practices. "Fear God" means to fear trying to do anything. If you don't try to do anything you will be taken care of. But you also have to not try to not try.  Post a Response

Re: fear God? same shit Posted by Steve on 2/4/2009, 9:40 am, in reply to "Re: fear God? same shit" 69.138.195.X : What's with that shit...'fear God'? ------------------- : That is the same shit Steve practices. : "Fear God" means to fear trying to : do anything. If you don't try to do : anything you will be taken care of. But you : also have to not try to not try. ------------------- Hadn't thought of it that way, rat. But I can see it. If I were a theist though, I would love, unconditionally, my god. There would be no fear. It will have freed me from the need to do or control anything, and in doing so will have lifted a great burden from my shoulders. Why would I fear such a benevolence.  Post a Response

Re: fear God? same shit & the baby underneath the superstition Posted by rat on 2/4/2009, 11:04 am, in reply to "Re: fear God? same shit" 76.236.64.X --Previous Message-- : : What's with that shit...'fear God'? : : ------------------- : : That is the same shit Steve practices. : "Fear God" means to fear trying to : do anything. If you don't try to do : anything you will be taken care of. But you : also have to not try to not try. : : ------------------- : : Hadn't thought of it that way, rat. But I : can see it. : : If I were a theist though, I would love, : unconditionally, my god. There would be no : fear. : : It will have freed me from the need to do or : control anything, and in doing so will have : lifted a great burden from my shoulders. : : Why would I fear such a benevolence. From the internet-- "There seem to be two schools of thought regarding all the "fear God" passages. One – that you should be afraid of the Holy One- trembling, shaking in your boots kind of fear. The other, that you should stand in awe of Him." I think we can do away with the "should" part. But these Christians do seem to be striving for an underlying empirically available spiritual precept that goes like this: When you are truly awed by the universe, you don't worry about anything. You don't give any credence to make-believe fears. "God" can be either make-believe supernatural, or can represent a felt awe at natural experience. Sometimes it is useful to look at underlying tendencies in religion, rather than throw out the baby with the superstitious bathwater.  Post a Response

Re: fear God? same shit & the baby underneath the superstition Posted by Steve on 2/4/2009, 11:45 am, in reply to "Re: fear God? same shit & the baby underneath the superstition" 69.138.195.X : From the internet-- : "There seem to be two schools of : thought regarding all the "fear : God" passages. One – that you should : be afraid of the Holy One- trembling, : shaking in your boots kind of fear. The : other, that you should stand in awe of : Him." : : I think we can do away with the : "should" part. : : But these Christians do seem to be striving : for an underlying empirically available : spiritual precept that goes like this: When : you are truly awed by the universe, you : don't worry about anything. You don't give : any credence to make-believe fears. : "God" can be either make-believe : supernatural, or can represent a felt awe at : natural experience. : : Sometimes it is useful to look at underlying : tendencies in religion, rather than throw : out the baby with the superstitious : bathwater. ---------------------------------- "Sometimes it is useful to look at underlying tendencies in religion, rather than throw out the baby with the superstitious bathwater." I agree that the baby is worth preserving, rat. My problem with the professional atheists is that they tend to focus on the God Concept rather than on the power and potential of institutional religion to wreak havoc in the world. I would spend my pennies arguing not against the existence of God, but for the need of society to totally insulate itself from privately-held religious and spiritual beliefs. To be honest, I'm somewhat concerned when two or more dao-focused people come together to talk shop, as we do here and on other forums. Perhaps josef's prayers will be answered and my typing hand will be struck with a debilitating palsy. The world would be better off, surely.  Post a Response

Be Afraid, very, very Afraid. Posted by Butcho on 2/4/2009, 12:11 pm, in reply to "Re: fear God? same shit" 216.96.15.X --Previous Message-- : : What's with that shit...'fear God'? : : ------------------- : : That is the same shit Steve practices. : "Fear God" means to fear trying to : do anything. If you don't try to do : anything you will be taken care of. But you : also have to not try to not try. : : ------------------- : : Hadn't thought of it that way, rat. But I : can see it. : : If I were a theist though, I would love, : unconditionally, my god. There would be no : fear. : : It will have freed me from the need to do or : control anything, and in doing so will have : lifted a great burden from my shoulders. : : Why would I fear such a benevolence. : : : Friends, "Fear" is actually a poor translation. A better word that is a more accurate translation is "awe", rather than fear. The "awe" of God is the beginning of wisdom. That sort of thing. "Respect" too comes to mind. But the religious minded are more into fear than awe. I see the words of the Teacher to be very Taoist. Perhaps I am the only one here that does. And I also see God and Tao as interchangeable. I am open to different ways of saying the same thing. We are all blind men when it comes to the Elephant in the room. Butcho  Post a Response

the frog and the well Posted by Lian Dao on 2/4/2009, 12:59 pm, in reply to "Be Afraid, very, very Afraid." 89.240.183.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : What's with that shit...'fear God'? : : ------------------- : : That is the same shit Steve practices. : "Fear God" means to fear trying to : do anything. If you don't try to do : anything you will be taken care of. But you : also have to not try to not try. : : ------------------- : : Hadn't thought of it that way, rat. But I : can see it. : : If I were a theist though, I would love, : unconditionally, my god. There would be no : fear. : : It will have freed me from the need to do or : control anything, and in doing so will have : lifted a great burden from my shoulders. : : Why would I fear such a benevolence. : : : : Friends, : : "Fear" is actually a poor : translation. A better word that is a more : accurate translation is "awe", : rather than fear. The "awe" of God : is the beginning of wisdom. That sort of : thing. "Respect" too comes to : mind. But the religious minded are more into : fear than awe. : : I see the words of the Teacher to be very : Taoist. Perhaps I am the only one here that : does. : : And I also see God and Tao as : interchangeable. I am open to different ways : of saying the same thing. We are all blind : men when it comes to the Elephant in the : room. : Of course you do Butch. Of course you see the tao and god as interchangable. Why wouldn't you? And if you turn the light in the room on, you'll also see that it wasn't an elephant aftr all.  Post a Response

Re: Be Afraid, very, very Afraid. Posted by Steve on 2/4/2009, 12:59 pm, in reply to "Be Afraid, very, very Afraid." 69.138.195.X : Friends, : : "Fear" is actually a poor : translation. A better word that is a more : accurate translation is "awe", : rather than fear. The "awe" of God : is the beginning of wisdom. That sort of : thing. "Respect" too comes to : mind. But the religious minded are more into : fear than awe. : : I see the words of the Teacher to be very : Taoist. Perhaps I am the only one here that : does. : : And I also see God and Tao as : interchangeable. I am open to different ways : of saying the same thing. We are all blind : men when it comes to the Elephant in the : room. : : Butcho ----------------------------- I think it's the same elephant, Butcho. I know you do too. I suspect everyone here does. Except Wayne. I'm not sure about Wayne. 'Awe' is good. I can live with that, as long as it's not the 'awe of that thing there'--the awe that gives birth to all lusts. Actually...only Buddhists have issues with lust, so scratch that. 'Awe' is fine.  Post a Response

Re: Note to lurkers: god wants your first born Posted by Lian Dao on 2/4/2009, 1:06 pm, in reply to "Note to lurkers: Tao Speaks loves Christians" 89.240.183.X --Previous Message-- : : Obviously Butch and i aren't talking cos he : said some mean stuff about me and there aint : no mods around to avenge my delicate little : ego but i will say this, if you'd be kind : enough to pass it on to him, Steve. : : Who is this god doing things, where is he : doing them from and why is he doing them to : us? : : --------------------------- : : Oy. Cultivators and their dueling egos. : Again. : : Here are the answers to your questions, Lian : Dao. : : 1) God is like the dao--but with balls. : : 2) He operates out of heaven. If you have : balls, you have to operate out of somewhere. : : 3) He does what he does because he loves us, : and because he can. When you have balls, : you have to prove it. : : Thanks for the input big guy, but i believe that my questions were directed to one Pastor Butch, who it appears seems to know more about this god than most. Clearly you didn't tell him what i asked you too. As i see it these terms 'god' and 'tao' are also interchangable with 'ego'. Not that that's a bad thing.  Post a Response

lust breeds idiots Posted by Lian Dao on 2/4/2009, 1:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Be Afraid, very, very Afraid." 89.240.183.X --Previous Message-- : Friends, : : "Fear" is actually a poor : translation. A better word that is a more : accurate translation is "awe", : rather than fear. The "awe" of God : is the beginning of wisdom. That sort of : thing. "Respect" too comes to : mind. But the religious minded are more into : fear than awe. : : I see the words of the Teacher to be very : Taoist. Perhaps I am the only one here that : does. : : And I also see God and Tao as : interchangeable. I am open to different ways : of saying the same thing. We are all blind : men when it comes to the Elephant in the : room. : : Butcho : : ----------------------------- : : I think it's the same elephant, Butcho. I : know you do too. I suspect everyone here : does. : : Except Wayne. I'm not sure about Wayne. : : 'Awe' is good. I can live with that, as : long as it's not the 'awe of that thing : there'--the awe that gives birth to all : lusts. : : Actually...only Buddhists have issues with : lust, so scratch that. : : 'Awe' is fine. : : : Not so much lust, more desire actually.  Post a Response

stop beating up on my friend Butcho Posted by Steve on 2/4/2009, 1:19 pm, in reply to "the frog and the well" 69.138.195.X While you were busy cultivating things over the past 72 hours, Lian Dao, the factions here in Tao Speaks have changed. Butcho and I are now on the same team. Rat is in the faction wilderness, looking for an identity and fretting over the Death of Seriousness. The others are so horrified by all of this that they're in hiding. *** See what you've done?  Post a Response

pay no attention to him, kind lurkers: he's a Buddhist Posted by Steve on 2/4/2009, 1:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Note to lurkers: god wants your first born" 69.138.195.X : As i see it these terms 'god' and 'tao' are : also interchangable with 'ego'. : : Not that that's a bad thing. ---------------------- And are we to assume that 'Buddha Consciousness' is not a creation of the 'Big-Bad-Mommy-Mommy-There's-An-Invisible-Monster-Under-My-Bed' Ego?  Post a Response

Re: lust breeds idiots Posted by Steve on 2/4/2009, 1:50 pm, in reply to "lust breeds idiots" 69.138.195.X : Actually...only Buddhists have issues with : lust, so scratch that. ------------------------ : Not so much lust, more desire actually. ------------------------ Ah... Nice. So you have a desire to calm/control/reign in desire. Does that make metaphysical sense to you, Sweet Pea?  Post a Response

phase 2 Posted by Lian Dao on 2/4/2009, 3:44 pm, in reply to "Re: lust breeds idiots" 89.242.205.X --Previous Message-- : Actually...only Buddhists have issues with : lust, so scratch that. : : ------------------------ : : Not so much lust, more desire actually. : : ------------------------ : : Ah... : : Nice. : : So you have a desire to calm/control/reign : in desire. : : Does that make metaphysical sense to you, : Sweet Pea? : : Can you think of any other way cupcake?  Post a Response

damn you all Posted by Lian Dao on 2/4/2009, 3:46 pm, in reply to "pay no attention to him, kind lurkers: he's a Buddhist" 89.242.205.X --Previous Message-- : : As i see it these terms 'god' and 'tao' are : also interchangable with 'ego'. : : Not that that's a bad thing. : : ---------------------- : : And are we to assume that 'Buddha : Consciousness' is not a creation of the : 'Big-Bad-Mommy-Mommy-There's-An-Invisible-Monster-Under-My-Bed' : Ego? : Yes!  Post a Response

Re: stop beating up on my friend Butcho Posted by Lian Dao on 2/4/2009, 3:50 pm, in reply to "stop beating up on my friend Butcho" 89.242.205.X --Previous Message-- : : While you were busy cultivating things over : the past 72 hours, Lian Dao, the factions : here in Tao Speaks have changed. Butcho and : I are now on the same team. : : Rat is in the faction wilderness, looking : for an identity and fretting over the Death : of Seriousness. : : The others are so horrified by all of this : that they're in hiding. : : *** : : See what you've done? : : It's okay. i'm back now. i will make it all better. Trust me.  Post a Response

Re: phase 2 Posted by Steve on 2/4/2009, 4:55 pm, in reply to "phase 2" 69.138.195.X : Actually...only Buddhists have issues with : lust, so scratch that. ------------------------ : Not so much lust, more desire actually. ------------------------ : Ah... : : Nice. : : So you have a desire to calm/control/reign : in desire. : : Does that make metaphysical sense to you, : Sweet Pea? -------------------------- : Can you think of any other way cupcake? -------------------------- Well, the "Survival of the Fittest Desire" Rule works for me; Desires that are useful/productive tend to hang around. Those that aren't tend to fall away in time--to the extent that I get out of the way and don't interfere with the process. (You haven't addressed my quandary--concerning how one goes about calming/controlling/reigning in desire through the exercise of desire.)  Post a Response

God is Love. Posted by Butcho on 2/4/2009, 9:31 pm, in reply to "Re: phase 2" 216.96.15.X --Previous Message-- : Actually...only Buddhists have issues with : lust, so scratch that. : : ------------------------ : : Not so much lust, more desire actually. : : ------------------------ : : Ah... : : Nice. : : So you have a desire to calm/control/reign : in desire. : : Does that make metaphysical sense to you, : Sweet Pea? : : -------------------------- : : Can you think of any other way cupcake? : : -------------------------- : : Well, the "Survival of the Fittest : Desire" Rule works for me; Desires : that are useful/productive tend to hang : around. Those that aren't tend to fall away : in time--to the extent that I get out of the : way and don't interfere with the process. : : (You haven't addressed my : quandary--concerning how one goes about : calming/controlling/reigning in desire : through the exercise of desire.) : : : : Friends, Isaac Newton predicted the return of Jesus in 2012. The Mayan calandar ends in 2012. Other phrophesies also point to something big happening in 2012. Check out all the books being published right now about 2012. Could it be another Y2K? I don't know. I don't know about all these phrophesies but it doesn't take a Taoist sage to see that the World of Man is getting more and more strained with each passing day. Maybe something unexpected by most of us is coming our way. Speaking of "Fear and Desire" maybe something "Wonderful" as in "2010 A Space Odyssey" is coming. Or maybe we are simply on our last legs. And so I return to my categorical imperative. It does not matter what a person believes if they don't have love in their heart. Love even your enemies. Obviously Jesus did not know LD. Just kidding Last Days. Find your joy LD. Nothing else makes life worth living in my opinion. One thing about joy though. If your joy brings others pain then it is not the kind of joy I am talking about. Butcho  Post a Response

subject to change, desire born of Yin and Yang Posted by Wayne L. on 2/5/2009, 8:05 am, in reply to "Re: lust breeds idiots" 76.168.123.X --Previous Message-- : Actually...only Buddhists have issues with : lust, so scratch that. : : ------------------------ : : Not so much lust, more desire actually. : : ------------------------ : : Ah... : : Nice. : : So you have a desire to calm/control/reign : in desire. : : Does that make metaphysical sense to you, : Sweet Pea? Tao Te Ching, Chapter One, D.C. Lao Paraphrase in ( ) The Nameless (God, the Primordial Tao being Whu-Chi--->O) was the beginning (cause) of the heavens and the earth; The named was the mother of the myriad creatures. Hence always rid yourself of desires (born of the mother) in order to observe its secrets; (in order to observe the unknown desires born of the Nameless cause of the heavens and the earth, born of Tao, Reason) But always allow yourself to have desires (born of the Nameless) in order to observe its Manifestations (paraphrase- in order to make manifest desires born of Tao, Reason, the Single True Nature, Boundlessness, Free Will) Desires born of these Two, the nameless and the named are of the same source, but diverge in name as they issue forth. Being the same ( being of the same source) they are called a mysteries, mystery upon mystery. (Desire born of Yin and of Yang, born of both the Nameless and the Named, born of Tao, Reason) The gate way of manifold secrets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mystery upon Mystery; the Mother being the Named, being Masculine, and the Father being the Nameless, being Feminine, the Mother being Earthly the Father Heavenly. One must fear having only the desires born of the Father, the Nameless, born of Rationalism, Spiritualism, Monism, born of the Nameless, born of the single true Nature of the Universe, Boundlessness, born only of the Spirit of Gtod. The Two as One allowing for the manifestation of Tao, Reason, being the gateway to to the manifestation of the Secrets of the Universe.  Post a Response

Re: subject to change, desire born of Yin and Yang Posted by Steve on 2/5/2009, 8:28 am, in reply to "subject to change, desire born of Yin and Yang" 69.138.195.X : Hence always rid yourself of desires (born : of the mother) in order to observe its : secrets; : (in order to observe the unknown desires : born of the Nameless cause of the heavens : and the earth, born of Tao, Reason) But : always allow yourself to have desires (born : of the Nameless) in order to observe its : Manifestations (paraphrase- in order to : make manifest desires born of Tao, Reason, : the Single True Nature, Boundlessness, Free : Will) : : Desires born of these Two, the nameless and : the named are of the same source, but : diverge in name as they issue forth. : : Being the same ( being of the same source) : they are called a mysteries, mystery upon : mystery. : : (Desire born of Yin and of Yang, born of : both the Nameless and the Named, born of : Tao, Reason) : : The gate way of manifold secrets. ---------------------------- I understand it that way too, Wayne. Look at it through one eye and you see it one way. Look at it through the other eye and you see it another way. Look at it through both eyes at the same time and you get the wide screen Technicolor extravaganza version.  Post a Response

Depth of perception Posted by Wayne L. on 2/7/2009, 1:10 am, in reply to "Re: subject to change, desire born of Yin and Yang" 76.168.123.X : I understand it that way too, Wayne. : : Look at it through one eye and you see it : one way. Look at it through the other eye : and you see it another way. : : Look at it through both eyes at the same : time and you get the wide screen Technicolor : extravaganza version. : Almost! One of the Two points of view is our binocular vision. Having two points of view, One point of view being binocular giving us our depth of perception relative to the Three Dimensional World of Reality, the Second Point of view, the perception of thine Single Eye, Thine Evil Eye, the Third Eye, the Mind's Eye, giving us our Depth of perception in Time, the Two Points of View on the whole giving us depth of perception in Time and Space. Monism, Man's point of view from thine Single Eye alone and man becomes a Space-Cadet, lost in both Time and Space, leaves man somewhere out in left field. --Previous Message-- : : Hence always rid yourself of desires (born : of the mother) in order to observe its : secrets; : (in order to observe the unknown desires : born of the Nameless cause of the heavens : and the earth, born of Tao, Reason) But : always allow yourself to have desires (born : of the Nameless) in order to observe its : Manifestations (paraphrase- in order to : make manifest desires born of Tao, Reason, : the Single True Nature, Boundlessness, Free : Will) : : Desires born of these Two, the nameless and : the named are of the same source, but : diverge in name as they issue forth. : : Being the same ( being of the same source) : they are called a mysteries, mystery upon : mystery. : : (Desire born of Yin and of Yang, born of : both the Nameless and the Named, born of : Tao, Reason) : : The gate way of manifold secrets. .  Post a Response

Re: God is Love. Posted by Wayne L. on 2/7/2009, 1:23 am, in reply to "God is Love." 76.168.123.X Better said, that Love is God. Love, Gravitation makes the world go around. Godly Love, agape, gravitation, is not born of a direct material cause, is not an effect, is an affect, Pure Unadulterated Love, Gravitation.  Post a Response

Re: to christians and unevolved pond life everywhere Posted by Wayne L. on 2/7/2009, 1:36 am, in reply to "to christians and unevolved pond life everywhere" 76.168.123.X --Previous Message-- : Who is this god doing things, where is he : doing them from and why is he doing them to : us? The One True God is Nameless. You must understand that God is just a Word, that is used for the lack of a better Word. To think of the word God as being a Name is to carve a graven Image. You can not speak of; give a name to, God. God is not an Absolute, is not a materiality, is not a person, place or thing. The only name that can be given to God, is No-Name.  Post a Response

Re: Note to lurkers: god wants your first born Posted by Wayne L. on 2/7/2009, 2:08 am, in reply to "Re: Note to lurkers: god wants your first born" 76.168.123.X --Previous Message-- : : As i see it these terms 'god' and 'tao' are : also interchangable with 'ego'. : : Not that that's a bad thing. : God is the, is just a, Word. Anyone that speaks of the word God as though it were a Name is not speaking of the nameless cause of the Heavens and the Earth, Tao Primordially speaking being Wu Chi---O. Tao and God are not the same Being, Entity, the Ego being born of Tao, Reason, Tao, Reason being born of a State of Mind, Born of God, Boundlessness, born of the Single True Nature of the Universe, born of a Steady State of Singularity. The Ego, born of Tao, Reason is Man's God, man liking it or not. When the Ego is not fully Realized, is incomplete, not fully developed, the ego does not function properly. Properly meaning unadulterated, not perverted, not distorted, not living in a World of Illusion; Illusion being born of Absolutely Bad Knowledge, the knowledge of Good and Evil. Man's Ego problem going back to Original Sin; Eating the fruit of the tree, from the source of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Absolutely Bad Knowledge.  Post a Response

Re: Note to lurkers: Tao Speaks loves Christians Posted by Wayne L. on 2/7/2009, 2:13 am, in reply to "Note to lurkers: Tao Speaks loves Christians" 76.168.123.X --Previous Message-- : Oy. Cultivators and their dueling egos. : Again. What you fail to realized is that you have already been cultivated, self is born of cultivation, is born of, the Evolutionary process; Cultivation.  Post a Response

Re: Note to lurkers: Tao Speaks loves Christians Posted by Steve on 2/7/2009, 9:34 am, in reply to "Re: Note to lurkers: Tao Speaks loves Christians" 69.138.195.X : Oy. Cultivators and their dueling egos. : Again. ---------------------------- : What you fail to realized is that you have : already been cultivated, self is born of : cultivation, : is born of, the Evolutionary process; : Cultivation. ---------------------------- Well, yes: I've been assimilated into the human race by forces of nature I have no control over. I have difficulty equating that with 'cultivation,' however. To me, 'cultivation' implies proactively seeking to further the processes of nature. I'm told it works for some people, and I believe it.  Post a Response

Re: Note to lurkers: Tao Speaks loves Christians Posted by Wayne L. on 2/7/2009, 5:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Note to lurkers: Tao Speaks loves Christians" 76.168.116.X --Previous Message-- : : Oy. Cultivators and their dueling egos. : Again. : : ---------------------------- : : What you fail to realized is that you have : already been cultivated, self is born of : cultivation, : is born of, the Evolutionary process; : Cultivation. : : ---------------------------- : : Well, yes: I've been assimilated into the : human race by forces of nature I have no : control over. I have difficulty equating : that with 'cultivation,' however. : : To me, 'cultivation' implies proactively : seeking to further the processes of nature. : : I'm told it works for some people, and I : believe it. proactively : seeking to further the processes of nature. No, Cultivation is not based upon man’s desire to proactively further the processes of nature. The purpose of cultivation is to correct a wrong, nothing born of Nature being wrong, Bad, Evil; Nature is perfect, is not to be judged to be good or bad right or wrong. The Fully Realized Self, Ego, is born of the Knowledge of Reality, Knowledge being a mere reflection of Reality rather than Reality itself, Knowledge that may be Absolutely Good or Absolutely Bad. Knowledge being Scientific in nature is Absolutely Good, Knowledge in the Biblical sense of the word, Knowledge born of Experience; Absolutely Bad Knowledge being the cause of the down Fall of Man. The Purpose of Cultivation being to rid man of Absolutely Bad Knowledge. As a mere reflection of Reality, the Knowledge of Reality is easily distorted, perverted. The Greatest cause of the distortion, perversion of Man’s knowledge of Reality being the Stubbornness of the Imagination, the stubbornness of the Imagination having caused man, do Evil from his and her very youth, to be guileful. The purpose of cultivation is to aid man in his quest to be born anew, to become a New Creation. Wisdom, Knowledge is the main contributor to the development of Self, the Ego, Knowledge being a mere reflection of Reality not Reality itself. If any part of man's Knowledge of Reality is not Absolutely Good Knowledge Self, the Ego, made Manifest will be perverted, unnatural, can not be become Fully Realized. Nothing happens without a cause, however said cause, does not have to be a direct material cause, is not necessarily born of the Chaos of Mother Nature, the evolutionary process born of cause and effect. Self, Ego, is actually born of indirect cause, is not born of the ordinary process of cause and effect, ordinary meaning self is not born of cause and effect, the chaos of Mother Nature, Self, Ego, Man's Second Nature, is a Creation; a creation being born of indirect cause, being born of an affect, a Creation being a product of the Mind.  Post a Response

no-self Posted by Lian Dao on 2/12/2009, 9:17 am, in reply to "Re: phase 2" 89.241.140.X --Previous Message-- : Actually...only Buddhists have issues with : lust, so scratch that. : : ------------------------ : : Not so much lust, more desire actually. : : ------------------------ : : Ah... : : Nice. : : So you have a desire to calm/control/reign : in desire. : : Does that make metaphysical sense to you, : Sweet Pea? : : -------------------------- : : Can you think of any other way cupcake? : : -------------------------- : : Well, the "Survival of the Fittest : Desire" Rule works for me; Desires : that are useful/productive tend to hang : around. Those that aren't tend to fall away : in time--to the extent that I get out of the : way and don't interfere with the process. : : (You haven't addressed my : quandary--concerning how one goes about : calming/controlling/reigning in desire : through the exercise of desire.) : : : : Desire is a natural function of the natural psychosomatic processes that give form to the void of self. Desire when utilised to override the desire to engage the psychosomatic processes that give form (sensual and cognitive) to the concept of self, would indicate that such a function does not depend upon an objective existence of 'desire' but rather a purely subjective ability to disengage from the psychosomatic processes that give a sense of substance to the notion of self and selfhood. Does that help?  Post a Response

good cop/bad cop Posted by Lian Dao on 2/12/2009, 9:23 am, in reply to "God is Love." 89.241.140.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Actually...only Buddhists have issues with : lust, so scratch that. : : ------------------------ : : Not so much lust, more desire actually. : : ------------------------ : : Ah... : : Nice. : : So you have a desire to calm/control/reign : in desire. : : Does that make metaphysical sense to you, : Sweet Pea? : : -------------------------- : : Can you think of any other way cupcake? : : -------------------------- : : Well, the "Survival of the Fittest : Desire" Rule works for me; Desires : that are useful/productive tend to hang : around. Those that aren't tend to fall away : in time--to the extent that I get out of the : way and don't interfere with the process. : : (You haven't addressed my : quandary--concerning how one goes about : calming/controlling/reigning in desire : through the exercise of desire.) : : : : : Friends, : : Isaac Newton predicted the return of Jesus : in 2012. : : The Mayan calandar ends in 2012. : : Other phrophesies also point to something : big happening in 2012. Check out all the : books being published right now about 2012. : Could it be another Y2K? I don't know. : : I don't know about all these phrophesies but : it doesn't take a Taoist sage to see that : the World of Man is getting more and more : strained with each passing day. : : Maybe something unexpected by most of us is : coming our way. Speaking of "Fear and : Desire" maybe something : "Wonderful" as in "2010 A : Space Odyssey" is coming. Or maybe we : are simply on our last legs. : : And so I return to my categorical : imperative. It does not matter what a person : believes if they don't have love in their : heart. Love even your enemies. Obviously : Jesus did not know LD. Just kidding Last : Days. : : Find your joy LD. Nothing else makes life : worth living in my opinion. One thing about : joy though. If your joy brings others pain : then it is not the kind of joy I am talking : about. : Joy and pain are equal partners Butch. Why trust one and not the other? And you know full well that underneath it all i love you more than i love myself Butch, so stop playing hard to get. As to the 2012 hoo-ha, i look forward to setting up a waste paper recycling company to get rid of all the subject matter thrown out on the 1st of January, 2013.  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by Steve on 2/12/2009, 9:33 am, in reply to "no-self" 69.138.195.X : (You haven't addressed my : quandary--concerning how one goes about : calming/controlling/reigning in desire : through the exercise of desire.) -------------------- : Desire is a natural function of the natural : psychosomatic processes that give form to : the void of self. : : Desire when utilised to override the desire : to engage the psychosomatic processes that : give form (sensual and cognitive) to the : concept of self, would indicate that such a : function does not depend upon an objective : existence of 'desire' but rather a purely : subjective ability to disengage from the : psychosomatic processes that give a sense of : substance to the notion of self and : selfhood. : : Does that help? ------------------------ Whatever butters your toast, sweetie. Desiring to overcome desire sounds like a crock of shit to me.  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by Lian Dao on 2/12/2009, 9:37 am, in reply to "Re: no-self" 89.241.140.X --Previous Message-- : (You haven't addressed my : quandary--concerning how one goes about : calming/controlling/reigning in desire : through the exercise of desire.) : : -------------------- : : Desire is a natural function of the natural : psychosomatic processes that give form to : the void of self. : : Desire when utilised to override the desire : to engage the psychosomatic processes that : give form (sensual and cognitive) to the : concept of self, would indicate that such a : function does not depend upon an objective : existence of 'desire' but rather a purely : subjective ability to disengage from the : psychosomatic processes that give a sense of : substance to the notion of self and : selfhood. : : Does that help? : : ------------------------ : : Whatever butters your toast, sweetie. : : Desiring to overcome desire sounds like a : crock of shit to me. : : 'Overcome'? Did i say 'overcome'? My absence seems to have softened you Taoist marshmallows up.  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by Steve on 2/12/2009, 12:23 pm, in reply to "Re: no-self" 69.138.195.X : Whatever butters your toast, sweetie. : : Desiring to overcome desire sounds like a : crock of shit to me. ------------------------- : 'Overcome'? : : Did i say 'overcome'? : : My absence seems to have softened you Taoist : marshmallows up. ------------------------- Look, I really don't have time for this today, Lian Dao. It's February 12th and my love and I are un-decorating the goddamn Christmas tree I've been walking into all winter. Uh oh...he's calling me. Gotta go. Seems I missed a garland or something...  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by rat on 2/12/2009, 1:02 pm, in reply to "Re: no-self" 76.236.64.X Laozi: "Why to I limit my wants: precisely to get what I want." desire to limit desire. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by Steve on 2/12/2009, 3:19 pm, in reply to "Re: no-self" 69.138.195.X : Laozi: "Why do I limit my wants: : precisely to get what I want." : : desire to limit desire. : : love, : rat --------------------------- Or...a pointing to the absurdity of chasing one's tail. A rejection of the notion of 'ego' as something needing calming. Steve  Post a Response

Re: no-self respecting disrepecting Buddhists allowed. Posted by Butcho on 2/12/2009, 3:37 pm, in reply to "Re: no-self" 75.88.45.X --Previous Message-- : Laozi: "Why do I limit my wants: : precisely to get what I want." : : desire to limit desire. : : love, : rat : : --------------------------- : : Or...a pointing to the absurdity of chasing : one's tail. : : A rejection of the notion of 'ego' as : something needing calming. : : Steve : : Steve, It is against the law in most states to leave one's Christmas tree up after January 12th. I thought about turning you in, but, well, I'm in a Christian mood. How do you define "ego"? The way I define ego is the contrived sense of self that most of us are attached to as if it is our original self. The ego is a mistaken case of identity if you will. A part that thinks it is the whole so much that no other part matters nearly so much. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by rat on 2/12/2009, 3:42 pm, in reply to "Re: no-self" 76.192.128.X --Previous Message-- : Laozi: "Why do I limit my wants: : precisely to get what I want." : : desire to limit desire. : : love, : rat : : --------------------------- : : Or...a pointing to the absurdity of chasing : one's tail. : : A rejection of the notion of 'ego' as : something needing calming. : : Steve : I like this Steve, because it very convincingly demonstrates that one of us is clearly wrong. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by Steve on 2/12/2009, 4:00 pm, in reply to "Re: no-self" 69.138.195.X : I like this Steve, because it very : convincingly demonstrates that one of us is : clearly wrong. : : love, : rat ------------------------------ Fully engorged as my imaginary bugaboo ego is, I'm prepared to say that it's you who are clearly wrong, rat. (I have you over a barrel, rat, because as an apophatic you are obligated to acknowledge that I may be right--whereas I am under no such obligation.)  Post a Response

Re: no-self respecting disrepecting Buddhists allowed. Posted by Steve on 2/12/2009, 4:50 pm, in reply to "Re: no-self respecting disrepecting Buddhists allowed." 69.138.195.X : How do you define "ego"? The way I : define ego is the contrived sense of self : that most of us are attached to as if it is : our original self. The ego is a mistaken : case of identity if you will. A part that : thinks it is the whole so much that no other : part matters nearly so much. : : Butcho ------------------------------ I defer to you to tell me what 'ego' is, Butcho...to you who through some mysterious process (purportedly unrelated to the exercise of 'ego') profess to understand its many treacheries. Me...I view 'ego' as a fiction created by those who see themselves as living in an essentially problematic universe. 'Ego' 'God' Concepts necessary only to those who live in an essentially problematic universe. Steve  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by rat on 2/12/2009, 9:04 pm, in reply to "Re: no-self" 76.247.110.X --Previous Message-- : : I like this Steve, because it very : convincingly demonstrates that one of us is : clearly wrong. : : love, : rat : : ------------------------------ : : Fully engorged as my imaginary bugaboo ego : is, I'm prepared to say that it's you who : are clearly wrong, rat. : : (I have you over a barrel, rat, because as : an apophatic you are obligated to : acknowledge that I may be right--whereas I : am under no such obligation.) : : This is true, but there is a certain nuanced reading between the lines which gives me the comfortable illusion that I can have my cake and eat it too. I can pretend so strongly that I do have the ability to be certain that you are wrong, that its just as good as the "real" thing. And I suspect that it might be the case that "the illusion is real." Plus I have the comfort of knowing that I also cannot be sure that you are right. Not being sure that you are right, is a very nice thought. And since I am so amazingly humble, it is plenty enough for me.  Post a Response

Re: no-self respecting disrepecting Buddhists allowed. Posted by Butcho on 2/12/2009, 10:31 pm, in reply to "Re: no-self respecting disrepecting Buddhists allowed." 75.88.45.X --Previous Message-- : How do you define "ego"? The way I : define ego is the contrived sense of self : that most of us are attached to as if it is : our original self. The ego is a mistaken : case of identity if you will. A part that : thinks it is the whole so much that no other : part matters nearly so much. : : Butcho : : ------------------------------ : : I defer to you to tell me what 'ego' is, : Butcho...to you who through some mysterious : process (purportedly unrelated to the : exercise of 'ego') profess to understand its : many treacheries. : : Me...I view 'ego' as a fiction created by : those who see themselves as living in an : essentially problematic universe. : : 'Ego' : : 'God' : : Concepts necessary only to those who live in : an essentially problematic universe. : : Steve : : Steve, The ego likes to play hide and seek thus it denies itself. Butcho  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by Steve on 2/12/2009, 10:33 pm, in reply to "Re: no-self" 69.138.195.X : Fully engorged as my imaginary bugaboo ego : is, I'm prepared to say that it's you who : are clearly wrong, rat. : : (I have you over a barrel, rat, because as : an apophatic you are obligated to : acknowledge that I may be right--whereas I : am under no such obligation.) -------------------------- : This is true, but there is a certain nuanced : reading between the lines which gives me the : comfortable illusion that I can have my cake : and eat it too. I can pretend so strongly : that I do have the ability to be certain : that you are wrong, that its just as good as : the "real" thing. And I suspect : that it might be the case that "the : illusion is real." : : Plus I have the comfort of knowing that I : also cannot be sure that you are right. Not : being sure that you are right, is a very : nice thought. And since I am so amazingly : humble, it is plenty enough for me. ----------------------------- Hmm... You know, rat, you were probably right when you suggested the other day that there's a chicken's piss worth of difference between our approaches. You embrace everything by excluding nothing. I embrace everything by excluding everything. You can embrace your pride freely because there's always the possibility that your pride is justified. I can embrace my pride freely because, right or wrong, who gives a shit? The dao? I don't think so. *** Did you catch my latest rant on the 'ego'? There's something there to offend even the most discerning cultivator. Tomorrow morning, as I turn on my computer, I will prepare for battle.  Post a Response

Re: no-self respecting disrepecting Buddhists allowed. Posted by Lian Dao on 2/13/2009, 12:39 am, in reply to "Re: no-self respecting disrepecting Buddhists allowed." 89.241.49.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : How do you define "ego"? The way I : define ego is the contrived sense of self : that most of us are attached to as if it is : our original self. The ego is a mistaken : case of identity if you will. A part that : thinks it is the whole so much that no other : part matters nearly so much. : : Butcho : : ------------------------------ : : I defer to you to tell me what 'ego' is, : Butcho...to you who through some mysterious : process (purportedly unrelated to the : exercise of 'ego') profess to understand its : many treacheries. : : Me...I view 'ego' as a fiction created by : those who see themselves as living in an : essentially problematic universe. : : 'Ego' : : 'God' : : Concepts necessary only to those who live in : an essentially problematic universe. : : Steve : : : Steve, : : The ego likes to play hide and seek thus it : denies itself. : Sounds a bit like 'god' doesn't it?  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by gar on 2/13/2009, 5:10 am, in reply to "Re: no-self" 173.101.222.X : Did you catch my latest rant on the 'ego'? : There's something there to offend even the : most discerning cultivator. : : Tomorrow morning, as I turn on my computer, : I will prepare for battle. : : Maybe that's why Steve turns on his computer, for the joy of competitiveness. in peace gar :  Post a Response

Joy is the key word-- Eros, Freud's pleasure principle Posted by rat on 2/13/2009, 8:07 am, in reply to "Re: no-self" 75.63.18.X --Previous Message-- : : Did you catch my latest rant on the 'ego'? : There's something there to offend even the : most discerning cultivator. : : Tomorrow morning, as I turn on my computer, : I will prepare for battle. : : : : Maybe that's why Steve turns on his : computer, for the joy of competitiveness. : : in peace : gar : Yes gar Joy!!, joy is the fundamental motivation. In my book I will present eros as the basis of all efforts toward spirituality, simply because eros is the basic motivation toward everything the human being seeks. It all comes down to the pleasure principle. Why do I fight with Steve? If I think I want to enlighten him out of altruism, that is a fine joke on myself. I do it for the fun of it. And when I am smart enough to know that, and to do it in a non-rancorous manner, that is simply to increase my own pleasure. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: no-self Posted by rat on 2/13/2009, 8:09 am, in reply to "Re: no-self" 75.63.18.X --Previous Message-- : : Fully engorged as my imaginary bugaboo ego : is, I'm prepared to say that it's you who : are clearly wrong, rat. : : (I have you over a barrel, rat, because as : an apophatic you are obligated to : acknowledge that I may be right--whereas I : am under no such obligation.) : : -------------------------- : : This is true, but there is a certain nuanced : reading between the lines which gives me the : comfortable illusion that I can have my cake : and eat it too. I can pretend so strongly : that I do have the ability to be certain : that you are wrong, that its just as good as : the "real" thing. And I suspect : that it might be the case that "the : illusion is real." : : Plus I have the comfort of knowing that I : also cannot be sure that you are right. Not : being sure that you are right, is a very : nice thought. And since I am so amazingly : humble, it is plenty enough for me. : : ----------------------------- : : Hmm... : : You know, rat, you were probably right when : you suggested the other day that there's a : chicken's piss worth of difference between : our approaches. : : You embrace everything by excluding nothing. : I embrace everything by excluding : everything. : : You can embrace your pride freely because : there's always the possibility that your : pride is justified. : : I can embrace my pride freely because, right : or wrong, who gives a shit? The dao? I : don't think so. : : *** : : Did you catch my latest rant on the 'ego'? : There's something there to offend even the : most discerning cultivator. : : Tomorrow morning, as I turn on my computer, : I will prepare for battle. : : : Hi Steve Yes, but we have got to pretend that we have fundamental differences. That way we can extend the joy. Let me find that ego thread and try to throw a few more punches. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: damn you all Posted by rat on 2/13/2009, 8:14 am, in reply to "damn you all" 75.63.18.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : As i see it these terms 'god' and 'tao' are : also interchangable with 'ego'. : : Not that that's a bad thing. : : ---------------------- : : And are we to assume that 'Buddha : Consciousness' is not a creation of the : : 'Big-Bad-Mommy-Mommy-There's-An-Invisible-Monster-Under-My-Bed' : Ego? : : : : Yes! Yes Lian Dao, thank you. But I want to be damned more than everyone else here. I deserve it secondary to my profound humility. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: no-self respecting disrepecting Buddhists allowed. Posted by Steve on 2/13/2009, 8:19 am, in reply to "Re: no-self respecting disrepecting Buddhists allowed." 69.138.195.X : The ego likes to play hide and seek thus it : denies itself. -------------------------- : Sounds a bit like 'god' doesn't it? -------------------------- Nice point, Lian Dao. God = the invisible, intangible, mysterious force I must love. Ego = the invisible, intangible, mysterious force I must calm.  Post a Response

Don't leave out denial Posted by rat on 2/13/2009, 8:38 am, in reply to "Re: no-self respecting disrepecting Buddhists allowed." 75.63.18.X --Previous Message-- : : The ego likes to play hide and seek thus it : denies itself. : : -------------------------- : : Sounds a bit like 'god' doesn't it? : : -------------------------- : : Nice point, Lian Dao. : : God = the invisible, intangible, mysterious : force I must love. : : Ego = the invisible, intangible, mysterious : force I must calm. : Ego = a force I must deny in order to think I am cool. love, rat (trying to stay at number one)  Post a Response

Re: Don't leave out denial Posted by Steve on 2/13/2009, 10:39 am, in reply to "Don't leave out denial" 69.138.195.X : Nice point, Lian Dao. : : God = the invisible, intangible, mysterious : force I must love. : : Ego = the invisible, intangible, mysterious : force I must calm. -------------------- : Ego = a force I must deny in order to : think I am cool. -------------------- That won't work, rat. I'm one of the least-cool people out there. I wear shirts that homeless shelters will not accept for their clients. I've had a cell phone for only 4 years, and I hate using it. I propose that this 'ego' thing is a drag on your happiness, and that you should flush the concept down the toilet, where it belongs. What use is it to you, this 'ego' fiction.  Post a Response

Re: Don't leave out denial Posted by rat on 2/13/2009, 11:39 am, in reply to "Re: Don't leave out denial" 76.236.66.X --Previous Message-- : Nice point, Lian Dao. : : God = the invisible, intangible, mysterious : force I must love. : : Ego = the invisible, intangible, mysterious : force I must calm. : : -------------------- : : Ego = a force I must deny in order to : think I am cool. : : -------------------- : : That won't work, rat. I'm one of the : least-cool people out there. : : I wear shirts that homeless shelters will : not accept for their clients. I've had a : cell phone for only 4 years, and I hate : using it. : : I propose that this 'ego' thing is a drag on : your happiness, and that you should flush : the concept down the toilet, where it : belongs. : : What use is it to you, this 'ego' fiction. : : Yes Steve, here is where the tire meets the road: Your honest sense is that it is a drag on my happiness, my sense is that working with the dynamics of the ego has given me increased happiness. Subjective reports of experience seem to trump all theoretical discussion. But of course we can continue to argue, if for no other reason, the fun of it. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: Don't leave out denial Posted by Steve on 2/13/2009, 1:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Don't leave out denial" 69.138.195.X : Yes Steve, here is where the tire meets the : road: : : Your honest sense is that it is a drag on my : happiness, my sense is that working with the : dynamics of the ego has given me increased : happiness. Subjective reports of experience : seem to trump all theoretical discussion. : : But of course we can continue to argue, if : for no other reason, the fun of it. : : love, : rat -------------------------------- I have always agreed with you that experience trumps theory. Always. How's this: 'Ego' is an illusion that works for you. If we agree on that, we'll have to find something else to quibble about.  Post a Response

Re: Don't leave out denial Posted by rat on 2/13/2009, 1:29 pm, in reply to "Re: Don't leave out denial" 76.247.111.X --Previous Message-- : Yes Steve, here is where the tire meets the : road: : : Your honest sense is that it is a drag on my : happiness, my sense is that working with the : dynamics of the ego has given me increased : happiness. Subjective reports of experience : seem to trump all theoretical discussion. : : But of course we can continue to argue, if : for no other reason, the fun of it. : : love, : rat : : -------------------------------- : : I have always agreed with you that : experience trumps theory. Always. : : How's this: 'Ego' is an illusion that : works for you. : : If we agree on that, we'll have to find : something else to quibble about. : : Oh this is bad, very very bad. We do agree on that. I'll have to take some days off from work and see if I can come up with anything.  Post a Response

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