[ Tao Speaks ]

Obama's spirituality Posted by josef on 11/12/2008, 8:19 am 24.32.223.X A very interesting article about the way our about-to-be-President sees the world through his faith: http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/11/obamas-interview-with-cathleen.html  Post a Response

Re: Obama's spirituality Posted by Steve on 11/12/2008, 11:55 am, in reply to "Obama's spirituality" 69.140.59.X "I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell. I can't imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity. That's just not part of my religious makeup." *** A fascinating interview. Thanks for posting it, josef. I was (and remain) troubled by Obama's relationship with the Reverend Wright. His motivations for distancing himself from Wright during the campaign are still unclear to me. If his motivation was purely political in nature, then we may be in for a bumpy ride in the coming years. The interview suggests, however, that our President-Elect has a sophisticated, carefully considered, view of the church/state divide. That gives me hope.  Post a Response

Re: Obama's spirituality Posted by josef on 11/12/2008, 12:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Obama's spirituality" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : A fascinating interview. Thanks for posting : it, josef. : : I was (and remain) troubled by Obama's : relationship with the Reverend Wright. His : motivations for distancing himself from : Wright during the campaign are still unclear : to me. If his motivation was purely : political in nature, then we may be in for a : bumpy ride in the coming years. : : The interview suggests, however, that our : President-Elect has a sophisticated, : carefully considered, view of the : church/state divide. : : That gives me hope. Being Christian, his clear support of the separation of Church and State was reassuring. (So many Christians who are rigid ideologues give the rest a bad name and make us uneasy.) I really didn't have any problem with the Rev. Wright thing. In my Catholic days I spent many an hour listening to things I didn't agree with. Any church is a community, with lots of divergence within it. People attend church for their own reasons, not to worship the messenger at the pulpit. (Except for cults.)+ And, like Obama, I even had close friendships with ministers (Prients, in my case), who were dogmatic and had goofball notions. Because they were intelligent we had some terrific discussions. It's the extremist fundamentalists in all faiths who are closed-minded, can't/won't dialogue with anyone but their own, and demonize those who have different beliefs or views. I think we hit the jackpot in this election. I, too, have hope.  Post a Response

My Great- Aunt Sybil Posted by josef on 11/12/2008, 12:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Obama's spirituality" 24.32.223.X This reminded me of my Great-Aunt Sybil. She was a Bible-belt southern Baptist minister, in Oklahoma. No smoking, drinking, dancing, cards, etc. Fundamentalist. When my great-great-grandfather died we all flew to Okla. for the funeral and stayed with her. I'd heard about her but had never met her. She was warm and wonderful. In the kitchen after the funeral, to everyone's surprise, she gave a bottle of wine to my mother to open, saying she didn't drink, but she knew Mother and her sisters enjoyed it. I was 14 at the time, knew of her beliefs, and was so impressed! Many years later on a trip across the country, my now-husband and I, who had been living together without-benefit-of-clergy, stopped to visit her. Knowing her beliefs, we were prepared to take separate rooms, but without a word she put our things in one room. It's a tricky thing to judge people by their labels, even the Southern Baptist fundamentalist one. There are good-hearted people in every faith, I've learned, who live the spirit of their beliefs, and there are the other ones, the rigid and often nasty ones, who make the most noise.  Post a Response

Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil Posted by Steve on 11/12/2008, 3:00 pm, in reply to "My Great- Aunt Sybil" 69.140.59.X : This reminded me of my Great-Aunt Sybil. She : was a Bible-belt southern Baptist minister, : in Oklahoma. No smoking, drinking, dancing, : cards, etc. Fundamentalist. When my : great-great-grandfather died we all flew to : Okla. for the funeral and stayed with her. : I'd heard about her but had never met her. : She was warm and wonderful. In the kitchen : after the funeral, to everyone's surprise, : she gave a bottle of wine to my mother to : open, saying she didn't drink, but she knew : Mother and her sisters enjoyed it. I was 14 : at the time, knew of her beliefs, and was so : impressed! : : Many years later on a trip across the : country, my now-husband and I, who had been : living together without-benefit-of-clergy, : stopped to visit her. Knowing her beliefs, : we were prepared to take separate rooms, but : without a word she put our things in one : room. : : It's a tricky thing to judge people by their : labels, even the Southern Baptist : fundamentalist one. There are good-hearted : people in every faith, I've learned, who : live the spirit of their beliefs, and there : are the other ones, the rigid and often : nasty ones, who make the most noise. ------------------------ Yes, there are good-hearted people in every faith and tradition. At the same time--from a social justice perspective--we are all of us responsible for what we aid or abet, silently or explicitly. Fundamentalist religion is a toxic, corrosive element in America today. Examples of this are everywhere, the most recent being the Mormon Church's efforts in rolling back social equality for lesbians and gay men in California--as evidenced by the church's spearheading of the recently-passed Proposition 8. Any Mormon who did not speak out against their church's involvement in that issue is partially to blame for the resulting travesty of justice.  Post a Response

Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil Posted by josef on 11/12/2008, 5:06 pm, in reply to "Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : Yes, there are good-hearted people in every : faith and tradition. At the same time--from : a social justice perspective--we are all of : us responsible for what we aid or abet, : silently or explicitly. : : Fundamentalist religion is a toxic, : corrosive element in America today. : Examples of this are everywhere, the most : recent being the Mormon Church's efforts in : rolling back social equality for lesbians : and gay men in California--as evidenced by : the church's spearheading of the : recently-passed Proposition 8. Any Mormon : who did not speak out against their church's : involvement in that issue is partially to : blame for the resulting travesty of justice. Like my Great-Aunt Sybil, people of good heart and good will live by their beliefs but don't try to impose them on others. This country was founded on the principle of religious freedom; the Christians who try to impose their beliefs as law are treading on dangerous ground. They also seem to have a deaf ear to Jesus' words: "Judge not". It's strange to hear the most 'religiou' people being the most hateful and judgemental. Ah, well, we dodged the bullet this year. Religious freedom is alive and well in the U.S.  Post a Response

Speaking of Mickey Rooney & Elizabeth Taylor. Posted by Butch on 11/12/2008, 10:12 pm, in reply to "Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil" 75.88.43.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : Yes, there are good-hearted people in every : faith and tradition. At the same time--from : a social justice perspective--we are all of : us responsible for what we aid or abet, : silently or explicitly. : : Fundamentalist religion is a toxic, : corrosive element in America today. : Examples of this are everywhere, the most : recent being the Mormon Church's efforts in : rolling back social equality for lesbians : and gay men in California--as evidenced by : the church's spearheading of the : recently-passed Proposition 8. Any Mormon : who did not speak out against their church's : involvement in that issue is partially to : blame for the resulting travesty of justice. : : Like my Great-Aunt Sybil, people of good : heart and good will live by their beliefs : but don't try to impose them on others. This : country was founded on the principle of : religious freedom; the Christians who try to : impose their beliefs as law are treading on : dangerous ground. They also seem to have a : deaf ear to Jesus' words: "Judge : not". It's strange to hear the most : 'religiou' people being the most hateful and : judgemental. : : Ah, well, we dodged the bullet this year. : Religious freedom is alive and well in the : U.S. : josef, Thank you for sharing the Obama interview with the rest of us. I too voted for Obama, as did my wife, my son and my daughter-in-law. Enough is enough. I am convinced Obama is a leader. It is up to the rest of us to prove him a great leader. I also think his wife is crucial to his success. She strikes me as being a really good woman to have at his side. I agree with most of the sentiment expressed by Obama in the interview. I can also understand his loyalty to Reverand Wright. A loyalty the good Reverand did not share with Obama. Wright is selfish. I do not see very much selfishness in Obama. To Steve's point about members of a religion being responsible for the actions of that religion, or something to that effect, I can understand his feelings. But I do not necessarily agree with him. Not very many Catholics think pedophilia is a laughing matter. Should we blame the lay Catholic for the sins of some of their priests? Should lay members wear shirts condemning the actions of some of their priests? Personally, I have found people to be like apples on a tree. Some are good and some are bad. As for our militant friend Steve, I think his cause would be better served if he focused more on those that support gay marriage than simply condemning those that are against it. For me the issue of gay marraige was finally resolved when I thought of it in these terms. If someone has the right to get married and divorced over and over again then how can any adult be denied the right to marry the person of their choice at least once... and yet at the same time people have a right to believe that marriage is exclusively a heterosexual bond. What to do? Allow Civil Unions with "all" the legal rights of Marriage. Allow churches, religions, that choose to do so to marry gay couples. But don't give gays the right to sue a church that refuses to marry them because of their religious beliefs. I don't have a problem with making rules to protect minorities as long as those rules don't violate the rights of others. If this doesn't work for Steve then I am sorry. We don't always get what we want. Again, thank you for sharing the interview with Obama. He chooses his words carefully, but candidly.  Post a Response

the foetus you save may grow up to be gay Posted by Lian Dao on 11/13/2008, 4:03 am, in reply to "Speaking of Mickey Rooney & Elizabeth Taylor." 78.150.172.X : To Steve's point about members of a religion : being responsible for the actions of that : religion, or something to that effect, I can : understand his feelings. But I do not : necessarily agree with him. Not very many : Catholics think pedophilia is a laughing : matter. Should we blame the lay Catholic for : the sins of some of their priests? Should : lay members wear shirts condemning the : actions of some of their priests? Do you honestly believe that any individual that depends upon another individual to tell them what to believe and how to live their life around that, is in full control of their capabilities? What sort of relationship are we to expect from a man who insists that we call him 'Father' and wears a dress? How much blame should we place upon the priests, the gurus, the masters, who are just as fully functioning human as we are, when they abuse their power over us? Who gave them that power over us in the first place? And who may take that power from them? : : Personally, I have found people to be like : apples on a tree. Some are good and some are : bad. Not very Taoist Butch. What happened to the yin in your yang? : : As for our militant friend Steve, I think : his cause would be better served if he : focused more on those that support gay : marriage than simply condemning those that : are against it. Why? Why would his cause be better served for being like that? : : For me the issue of gay marraige was finally : resolved when I thought of it in these : terms. If someone has the right to get : married and divorced over and over again : then how can any adult be denied the right : to marry the person of their choice at least : once... and yet at the same time people have : a right to believe that marriage is : exclusively a heterosexual bond. What to do? i'm not really following that train of thought there Butch. i'm not seeing that connection. How does the right to believe that only straights are capable of committing to marriage fit in with the right to remarry as many times as you choose? : : Allow Civil Unions with "all" the : legal rights of Marriage. Allow churches, : religions, that choose to do so to marry gay : couples. But don't give gays the right to : sue a church that refuses to marry them : because of their religious beliefs. I don't : have a problem with making rules to protect : minorities as long as those rules don't : violate the rights of others. Hmmm. Butch, i'm intrigued as to how 'making rules to protect minorities' would 'violate the rights of others' particularly in this case? If an aspect of institutionalised religion refuses to accept gay marriage they do so from the position that homosexuality is 'wrong' or 'perverted' in accordance with their interpretation of their particular belief-system. In refusing to recognise gay marriage, they are refusing to recognise the basic humanity of gays to function and exist as basic, human grown-ups with all of the joy and sorrow, successes and mistakes that that may bring with it. Some of your religious friends hold that the earth is 6 000 years old. Are they right to believe that? Should they have the right to vote, bear arms and raise kids when they are clearly not fully functioning human grown-ups? : : If this doesn't work for Steve then I am : sorry. We don't always get what we want. : : We may indeed not. However, if we as humans and either collectively or individually had always had that in mind, then what sort of a world would we be living in right now? And when it's all said and done, mercifully, it isn't up to you whether we do or don't get what we want.  Post a Response

I want to marry two people Posted by rat on 11/13/2008, 9:33 am, in reply to "the foetus you save may grow up to be gay" 76.236.67.X --Previous Message-- : : To Steve's point about members of a religion : being responsible for the actions of that : religion, or something to that effect, I can : understand his feelings. But I do not : necessarily agree with him. Not very many : Catholics think pedophilia is a laughing : matter. Should we blame the lay Catholic for : the sins of some of their priests? Should : lay members wear shirts condemning the : actions of some of their priests? : : : : Do you honestly believe that any individual : that depends upon another individual to tell : them what to believe and how to live their : life around that, is in full control of : their capabilities? : : What sort of relationship are we to expect : from a man who insists that we call him : 'Father' and wears a dress? : : How much blame should we place upon the : priests, the gurus, the masters, who are : just as fully functioning human as we are, : when they abuse their power over us? Who : gave them that power over us in the first : place? And who may take that power from : them? : : : : : Personally, I have found people to be like : apples on a tree. Some are good and some are : bad. : : : Not very Taoist Butch. What happened to the : yin in your yang? : : : : As for our militant friend Steve, I think : his cause would be better served if he : focused more on those that support gay : marriage than simply condemning those that : are against it. : : : Why? Why would his cause be better served : for being like that? : : : : : : For me the issue of gay marraige was finally : resolved when I thought of it in these : terms. If someone has the right to get : married and divorced over and over again : then how can any adult be denied the right : to marry the person of their choice at least : once... and yet at the same time people have : a right to believe that marriage is : exclusively a heterosexual bond. What to do? : : : i'm not really following that train of : thought there Butch. i'm not seeing that : connection. How does the right to believe : that only straights are capable of : committing to marriage fit in with the right : to remarry as many times as you choose? : : : : : : Allow Civil Unions with "all" the : legal rights of Marriage. Allow churches, : religions, that choose to do so to marry gay : couples. But don't give gays the right to : sue a church that refuses to marry them : because of their religious beliefs. I don't : have a problem with making rules to protect : minorities as long as those rules don't : violate the rights of others. : : : : Hmmm. Butch, i'm intrigued as to how 'making : rules to protect minorities' would 'violate : the rights of others' particularly in this : case? : : If an aspect of institutionalised religion : refuses to accept gay marriage they do so : from the position that homosexuality is : 'wrong' or 'perverted' in accordance with : their interpretation of their particular : belief-system. In refusing to recognise gay : marriage, they are refusing to recognise the : basic humanity of gays to function and exist : as basic, human grown-ups with all of the : joy and sorrow, successes and mistakes that : that may bring with it. : : Some of your religious friends hold that the : earth is 6 000 years old. Are they right to : believe that? Should they have the right to : vote, bear arms and raise kids when they are : clearly not fully functioning human : grown-ups? : : : : If this doesn't work for Steve then I am : sorry. We don't always get what we want. : : : : : We may indeed not. However, if we as humans : and either collectively or individually had : always had that in mind, then what sort of a : world would we be living in right now? And : when it's all said and done, mercifully, it : isn't up to you whether we do or don't get : what we want. : Wow, this is a great debate. I think with no easy answers. My own position is inconsistent. I think I should be allowed to marry someone of either sex. But I don't think I should be able to marry two people, (whether of the same sex or not!) But I can't prove there is any essential difference between these two actions. Its more "what the market can bear." love, rat  Post a Response

i want to kiss the bride Posted by Lian Dao on 11/13/2008, 9:44 am, in reply to "I want to marry two people" 78.144.223.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : To Steve's point about members of a religion : being responsible for the actions of that : religion, or something to that effect, I can : understand his feelings. But I do not : necessarily agree with him. Not very many : Catholics think pedophilia is a laughing : matter. Should we blame the lay Catholic for : the sins of some of their priests? Should : lay members wear shirts condemning the : actions of some of their priests? : : : : Do you honestly believe that any individual : that depends upon another individual to tell : them what to believe and how to live their : life around that, is in full control of : their capabilities? : : What sort of relationship are we to expect : from a man who insists that we call him : 'Father' and wears a dress? : : How much blame should we place upon the : priests, the gurus, the masters, who are : just as fully functioning human as we are, : when they abuse their power over us? Who : gave them that power over us in the first : place? And who may take that power from : them? : : : : : Personally, I have found people to be like : apples on a tree. Some are good and some are : bad. : : : Not very Taoist Butch. What happened to the : yin in your yang? : : : : As for our militant friend Steve, I think : his cause would be better served if he : focused more on those that support gay : marriage than simply condemning those that : are against it. : : : Why? Why would his cause be better served : for being like that? : : : : : : For me the issue of gay marraige was finally : resolved when I thought of it in these : terms. If someone has the right to get : married and divorced over and over again : then how can any adult be denied the right : to marry the person of their choice at least : once... and yet at the same time people have : a right to believe that marriage is : exclusively a heterosexual bond. What to do? : : : i'm not really following that train of : thought there Butch. i'm not seeing that : connection. How does the right to believe : that only straights are capable of : committing to marriage fit in with the right : to remarry as many times as you choose? : : : : : : Allow Civil Unions with "all" the : legal rights of Marriage. Allow churches, : religions, that choose to do so to marry gay : couples. But don't give gays the right to : sue a church that refuses to marry them : because of their religious beliefs. I don't : have a problem with making rules to protect : minorities as long as those rules don't : violate the rights of others. : : : : Hmmm. Butch, i'm intrigued as to how 'making : rules to protect minorities' would 'violate : the rights of others' particularly in this : case? : : If an aspect of institutionalised religion : refuses to accept gay marriage they do so : from the position that homosexuality is : 'wrong' or 'perverted' in accordance with : their interpretation of their particular : belief-system. In refusing to recognise gay : marriage, they are refusing to recognise the : basic humanity of gays to function and exist : as basic, human grown-ups with all of the : joy and sorrow, successes and mistakes that : that may bring with it. : : Some of your religious friends hold that the : earth is 6 000 years old. Are they right to : believe that? Should they have the right to : vote, bear arms and raise kids when they are : clearly not fully functioning human : grown-ups? : : : : If this doesn't work for Steve then I am : sorry. We don't always get what we want. : : : : : We may indeed not. However, if we as humans : and either collectively or individually had : always had that in mind, then what sort of a : world would we be living in right now? And : when it's all said and done, mercifully, it : isn't up to you whether we do or don't get : what we want. : : Wow, this is a great debate. I think with : no easy answers. My own position is : inconsistent. I think I should be allowed : to marry someone of either sex. But I don't : think I should be able to marry two people, : (whether of the same sex or not!) But I : can't prove there is any essential : difference between these two actions. Its : more "what the market can bear." : : love, : rat : When you do get around to marrying either or both or none at all of those two people, can i be maid of honour?  Post a Response

Re: i want to kiss the bride & only if... Posted by rat on 11/13/2008, 9:47 am, in reply to "i want to kiss the bride" 76.236.67.X : : Wow, this is a great debate. I think with : no easy answers. My own position is : inconsistent. I think I should be allowed : to marry someone of either sex. But I don't : think I should be able to marry two people, : (whether of the same sex or not!) But I : can't prove there is any essential : difference between these two actions. Its : more "what the market can bear." : : love, : rat : : : : When you do get around to marrying either or : both or none at all of those two people, can : i be maid of honour? : Only if the market can bear that. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: i want to kiss the bride Posted by Steve on 11/13/2008, 10:04 am, in reply to "i want to kiss the bride" 69.140.59.X : ...can i be maid of honour? --------------------- At my wedding, Lian Dao, yes--but only if you agree to henceforth spell 'honor' correctly. On the issue of gay people and their place in the universe, Butch's position has evolved considerably over the past few years. I don't think that in his heart of hearts he wants to deny me anything, but he's still a bit concerned that I might deny him something. That's progress. I'm happy. :)  Post a Response

Re: the foetus you save may grow up to be gay Posted by Butch on 11/13/2008, 10:34 am, in reply to "the foetus you save may grow up to be gay" 162.40.48.X Lian Dao, We will just have to agree to disagree. Butch  Post a Response

agree to disagree Posted by rat on 11/13/2008, 10:39 am, in reply to "Re: the foetus you save may grow up to be gay" 76.236.67.X --Previous Message-- : Lian Dao, : : We will just have to agree to disagree. : : Butch : Hi Butch I don't think that should be allowed on this board. I disagree. love, rat  Post a Response

Re: I want to marry two people Posted by Butch on 11/13/2008, 10:41 am, in reply to "I want to marry two people" 162.40.48.X : : Wow, this is a great debate. I think with : no easy answers. My own position is : inconsistent. I think I should be allowed : to marry someone of either sex. But I don't : think I should be able to marry two people, : (whether of the same sex or not!) But I : can't prove there is any essential : difference between these two actions. Its : more "what the market can bear." : : love, : rat : rat, I give you permission to marry two people. It is just that you can't be married to them at the same time. It's hard to be sincere when Lian Dao is being so serious. Of course I never do that. No I don't. I said I don't. I mean it. Dammit listen up. I mean IT! SOB. Do I have to yell? I MEAN IT!!!!!!! There, I feel better now. Really. I mean it. Butch  Post a Response

Re: agree to disagree Posted by Butch on 11/13/2008, 10:41 am, in reply to "agree to disagree" 162.40.48.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Lian Dao, : : We will just have to agree to disagree. : : Butch : : Hi Butch : : I don't think that should be allowed on : this board. I disagree. : : love, : rat : rat, I can agree with that. Butch  Post a Response

Re: agree to disagree Posted by rat on 11/13/2008, 10:45 am, in reply to "Re: agree to disagree" 76.236.67.X : : rat, : : I can agree with that. : : Butch : touché  Post a Response

Re: I want to marry two people Posted by rat on 11/13/2008, 10:49 am, in reply to "Re: I want to marry two people" 76.236.67.X --Previous Message-- : : Wow, this is a great debate. I think with : no easy answers. My own position is : inconsistent. I think I should be allowed : to marry someone of either sex. But I don't : think I should be able to marry two people, : (whether of the same sex or not!) But I : can't prove there is any essential : difference between these two actions. Its : more "what the market can bear." : : love, : rat : : : rat, : : I give you permission to marry two people. : It is just that you can't be married to them : at the same time. : : It's hard to be sincere when Lian Dao is : being so serious. Of course I never do that. : No I don't. I said I don't. I mean it. : Dammit listen up. I mean IT! SOB. Do I have : to yell? I MEAN IT!!!!!!! : : There, I feel better now. Really. I mean it. : : Butch : There is that slippery slope again Butch. You let me marry them consecutively, then soon I want them both at once. It would be like Freud wanting two mothers at the same time. love, rat  Post a Response

Dear josef Posted by Butch on 11/13/2008, 10:50 am, in reply to "Re: agree to disagree" 162.40.48.X I hope Obama doesn't read any of this. Surely he has better things to do. Again, I pray he is the real deal. And I also pray that we are wise enough to realize as much. Chop wood, carry water. Butch  Post a Response

Re: i want to kiss the bride Posted by Lian Dao on 11/13/2008, 11:02 am, in reply to "Re: i want to kiss the bride" 78.144.223.X --Previous Message-- : ...can i be maid of honour? : : --------------------- : : At my wedding, Lian Dao, yes--but only if : you agree to henceforth spell 'honor' : correctly. : : On the issue of gay people and their place : in the universe, Butch's position has : evolved considerably over the past few : years. I don't think that in his heart of : hearts he wants to deny me anything, but : he's still a bit concerned that I might deny : him something. : : That's progress. : : I'm happy. :) : : : If you take the trouble to re-read my previous post, then you will note that i did infact spell 'honour' correctly. It was you who spelt it wrong. Don't worry though, i pre-emptively accept your apologies. Concerning our mutual friend Butch, sometimes, i fear, that he doth protest too loudly, if you get my drift.  Post a Response

Re: the foetus you save may grow up to be gay Posted by Lian Dao on 11/13/2008, 11:06 am, in reply to "Re: the foetus you save may grow up to be gay" 78.144.223.X --Previous Message-- : Lian Dao, : : We will just have to agree to disagree. : : Butch : So, reading between the line there, what you're in fact saying is that i won that one?  Post a Response

Re: the foetus you save may grow up to be gay Posted by Butch on 11/13/2008, 5:08 pm, in reply to "Re: the foetus you save may grow up to be gay" 162.40.48.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : Lian Dao, : : We will just have to agree to disagree. : : Butch : : : : So, reading between the line there, what : you're in fact saying is that i won that : one? : : : Lian Dao, I agree that you are overly self-indulgent. Butch  Post a Response

Marry? Posted by Nina on 11/13/2008, 6:51 pm, in reply to "I want to marry two people" 71.106.26.X I still don't get why anyone would want to marry anyone else. Heterosexual / homosexual. It's so archaic. I see people walking around with those rings on their fingers. What does that mean? -- I've found someone who thinks enough of me to pledge their lives to me? I mean, what's the point? So "God" gives his blessings to the union? So you're assured of getting alimony if something goes wrong? So your mate won't have a wandering eye? If you love someone, then who needs God or the government to "approve" of it? Is there a ballot measure coming up to abolish marriage? I wonder what would happen if there was no marriages? Sorry, Rat...... You can marry as many people as you want. I didn't mean to pick on you, but I didn't know where else to post my rant. :-) -Nina : Wow, this is a great debate. I think with : no easy answers. My own position is : inconsistent. I think I should be allowed : to marry someone of either sex. But I don't : think I should be able to marry two people, : (whether of the same sex or not!) But I : can't prove there is any essential : difference between these two actions. Its : more "what the market can bear." : : love, : rat :  Post a Response

Re: Marry? Posted by gar on 11/13/2008, 7:26 pm, in reply to "Marry?" 70.100.199.X --Previous Message-- : I still don't get why anyone would want to : marry anyone else. Heterosexual / : homosexual. It's so archaic. : : I see people walking around with those rings : on their fingers. What does that mean? : -- I've found someone who thinks enough of : me to pledge their lives to me? : : I mean, what's the point? So : "God" gives his blessings to the : union? So you're assured of getting alimony : if something goes wrong? So your mate won't : have a wandering eye? : : If you love someone, then who needs God or : the government to "approve" of it? : : Is there a ballot measure coming up to : abolish marriage? I wonder what would : happen if there was no marriages? : : Sorry, Rat...... You can marry as many : people as you want. I didn't mean to pick : on you, but I didn't know where else to post : my rant. :-) : : -Nina : : Greetings Nina, Maybe marriage placates our desire for the possession illusion. in peace, gar : : : : Wow, this is a great debate. I think with : no easy answers. My own position is : inconsistent. I think I should be allowed : to marry someone of either sex. But I don't : think I should be able to marry two people, : (whether of the same sex or not!) But I : can't prove there is any essential : difference between these two actions. Its : more "what the market can bear." : : love, : rat : : :  Post a Response

Re: Marry? Posted by Steve on 11/13/2008, 8:05 pm, in reply to "Marry?" 69.140.59.X : I still don't get why anyone would want to : marry anyone else. Heterosexual / : homosexual. It's so archaic. : : I see people walking around with those rings : on their fingers. What does that mean? : -- I've found someone who thinks enough of : me to pledge their lives to me? : : I mean, what's the point? So : "God" gives his blessings to the : union? So you're assured of getting alimony : if something goes wrong? So your mate won't : have a wandering eye? : : If you love someone, then who needs God or : the government to "approve" of it? : : Is there a ballot measure coming up to : abolish marriage? I wonder what would : happen if there was no marriages? ---------------------- In a sense I agree with you, Nina. As Joni Mitchell said, "We don't need no piece of paper from the city hall, keeping us tied and true." Society grants benefits and protections to married couples and their children, so gay couples (many of whom have children) want the same benefits and protections for themselves and their children. It's really that simple. There is civil marriage and there is religious marriage. Religious institutions should be free to marry--or not marry--anyone they choose to marry or not marry. Civil institutions shouldn't discriminate. It's not nice. I don't think that in our lifetimes the institution of marriage will be abolished. What would become of all the catering halls? And all those deejays-for-hire? It just won't happen. So for the time being, we need to treat people equally and let them be. In a civilized society, that's what we do.  Post a Response

Re: the foetus you save may grow up to be gay Posted by Lian Dao on 11/14/2008, 1:31 am, in reply to "Re: the foetus you save may grow up to be gay" 78.148.84.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : Lian Dao, : : We will just have to agree to disagree. : : Butch : : : : So, reading between the line there, what : you're in fact saying is that i won that : one? : : : : Lian Dao, : : I agree that you are overly self-indulgent. : : Butch : But i still won, right? It's not about the taking part you know. Ask Obama.  Post a Response

Re: Marry? Posted by Nina on 11/14/2008, 9:45 am, in reply to "Re: Marry?" 71.106.8.X : Society grants benefits and protections to : married couples and their children, so gay : couples (many of whom have children) want : the same benefits and protections for : themselves and their children. It's really : that simple. : Hi Steve- I voted no on 8. I agree that consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want - and others should keep their noses out of their business. But.... The religious freaks will always poke their noses in, so maybe there's a better way to solve the gay marriage issue? If people want to form a family and get the benefits society has to offer them, then attack the laws preventing that from happening? Create a "household" initiative instead of a "marriage" one? Those who live under the same roof and pool their incomes become a "household" - whether they're roommates, parent and child, man and woman or man and man. Nobody's business what they do in their bedrooms. Also.... There are lots of legal ways to get around the "marriage" laws. Joint bank accounts, power of attorney, beneficiaries, etc. Doesn't seem like we need "marriage" in the traditional sense. Of course, some people get off saying "that's my husband (wife)." And there's all those wedding gifts. -Nina  Post a Response

Re: Marry? Posted by Steve on 11/14/2008, 10:12 am, in reply to "Re: Marry?" 69.140.59.X : Hi Steve- : : I voted no on 8. I agree that consenting : adults should be able to do whatever they : want - and others should keep their noses : out of their business. : : But.... The religious freaks will always : poke their noses in, so maybe there's a : better way to solve the gay marriage issue? : : If people want to form a family and get the : benefits society has to offer them, then : attack the laws preventing that from : happening? Create a "household" : initiative instead of a "marriage" : one? Those who live under the same roof and : pool their incomes become a : "household" - whether they're : roommates, parent and child, man and woman : or man and man. Nobody's business what they : do in their bedrooms. : : Also.... There are lots of legal ways to : get around the "marriage" laws. : Joint bank accounts, power of attorney, : beneficiaries, etc. : : Doesn't seem like we need : "marriage" in the traditional : sense. Of course, some people get off : saying "that's my husband (wife)." : And there's all those wedding gifts. : : -Nina ----------------------- There may indeed be a better way of addressing the problem. I understand what you're saying, Nina. Within the gay community there's a lot of debate regarding strategies for securing equality in this area. I and most gay people I know don't advocate for the end of marriage as a civil or religious institution. That's a losing strategy, big time. Civil unions don't provide all the benefits and protections to gay couples and their children that marriage does. This is well-documented. New Jersey, which has civil unions for same-sex couples, is a case in point. Anyone interested can google 'civil unions in New Jersey' to learn more on this. Steve  Post a Response

Re: Marry? Posted by Lian Dao on 11/14/2008, 12:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Marry?" 78.148.168.X --Previous Message-- : Hi Steve- : : I voted no on 8. I agree that consenting : adults should be able to do whatever they : want - and others should keep their noses : out of their business. : : But.... The religious freaks will always : poke their noses in, so maybe there's a : better way to solve the gay marriage issue? : : If people want to form a family and get the : benefits society has to offer them, then : attack the laws preventing that from : happening? Create a "household" : initiative instead of a "marriage" : one? Those who live under the same roof and : pool their incomes become a : "household" - whether they're : roommates, parent and child, man and woman : or man and man. Nobody's business what they : do in their bedrooms. : : Also.... There are lots of legal ways to : get around the "marriage" laws. : Joint bank accounts, power of attorney, : beneficiaries, etc. : : Doesn't seem like we need : "marriage" in the traditional : sense. Of course, some people get off : saying "that's my husband (wife)." : And there's all those wedding gifts. : : -Nina : : ----------------------- : : There may indeed be a better way of : addressing the problem. I understand what : you're saying, Nina. : : Within the gay community there's a lot of : debate regarding strategies for securing : equality in this area. I and most gay : people I know don't advocate for the end of : marriage as a civil or religious : institution. That's a losing strategy, big : time. : : Civil unions don't provide all the benefits : and protections to gay couples and their : children that marriage does. This is : well-documented. New Jersey, which has : civil unions for same-sex couples, is a case : in point. Anyone interested can google : 'civil unions in New Jersey' to learn more : on this. : i've just 'Googled' civil unions in New Jersey and have just recieved several propositions from some dude claiming to be from 'Noo Joisey' and saying how much he loved my Scottish accent. Any ideas what's going on?  Post a Response

Re: Marry? Posted by Steve on 11/14/2008, 1:43 pm, in reply to "Re: Marry?" 69.140.59.X : i've just 'Googled' civil unions in New : Jersey and have just recieved several : propositions from some dude claiming to be : from 'Noo Joisey' and saying how much he : loved my Scottish accent. : : Any ideas what's going on? -------------------- Yes, that will happen from time to time, Lian Dao. Tell him you're interested in the subject matter only as it relates to mystical union with the source of being. If that doesn't work, tell him Steve is free this coming Monday, and send him my phone number.  Post a Response

Re: Marry? Posted by Nina on 11/14/2008, 7:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Marry?" 71.106.25.X : There may indeed be a better way of : addressing the problem. I understand what : you're saying, Nina. : : Within the gay community there's a lot of : debate regarding strategies for securing : equality in this area. I and most gay : people I know don't advocate for the end of : marriage as a civil or religious : institution. That's a losing strategy, big : time. : : Civil unions don't provide all the benefits : and protections to gay couples and their : children that marriage does. This is : well-documented. New Jersey, which has : civil unions for same-sex couples, is a case : in point. Anyone interested can google : 'civil unions in New Jersey' to learn more : on this. : : Steve : : It still seems to me that you and your friends are compounding the problem. Instead of addressing a way to change the laws about who can receive benefits, you're taking on the Religious Right. Marriage is "sacred" to them. Hehe. I wonder if they'd fight so mightily against you just asking for the rights you want without requesting marriage in the bargain. I was with the same man for 25 years and never married him. I was the sole bread-winner, but we managed to get along without ever being involved in a civil union or any such thing. Not everyone has 401Ks or civil unions to assist them. If you can't afford to have kids, then don't have them. I don't see how being gay changes the prospect of just getting on with your life.... without asking for help from anyone else. Maybe I'm missing something? -Nina  Post a Response

Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil Posted by Wayne L on 11/15/2008, 8:42 am, in reply to "Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil" 76.87.0.X --Previous Message-- : Ah, well, we dodged the bullet this year. : Religious freedom is alive and well in the : U.S. : Truer words have never been Spoken.  Post a Response

Re: Marry? Posted by Steve on 11/15/2008, 8:54 am, in reply to "Re: Marry?" 69.140.59.X : It still seems to me that you and your : friends are compounding the problem. : Instead of addressing a way to change the : laws about who can receive benefits, you're : taking on the Religious Right. Marriage is : "sacred" to them. Hehe. : : I wonder if they'd fight so mightily against : you just asking for the rights you want : without requesting marriage in the bargain. : : I was with the same man for 25 years and : never married him. I was the sole : bread-winner, but we managed to get along : without ever being involved in a civil union : or any such thing. Not everyone has 401Ks : or civil unions to assist them. : : If you can't afford to have kids, then don't : have them. : : I don't see how being gay changes the : prospect of just getting on with your : life.... without asking for help from : anyone else. Maybe I'm missing something? : : -Nina ------------------------ Religious institutions are not required, and were never required, to marry anyone they choose not to marry, Nina. Proposition 8 was about refusing same-sex couples in California access to civil marriage. The Religious Right and their allies know this quite well. "I don't see how being gay changes the prospect of just getting on with your life.... without asking for help from anyone else. Maybe I'm missing something?" Yes, you are missing something, Nina. Same-sex couples aren't asking for 'help.' They're asking for equality under the law. If, for example, my life companion of 34 years has a tragic accident, I could be legally refused admittance to the hospital emergency room to be with him, since in the eyes of the law I am considered a legal stranger to him. This sort of thing happens all the time to same-sex couples, Nina. This is only one of hundreds and hundreds of protections that we do not have because we're not permitted to marry. Domestic partnerships offer some protection but are available in only a handful of states and are generally not recognized outside the state in which they are issued.  Post a Response

Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil Posted by Wayne L on 11/15/2008, 8:59 am, in reply to "Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil" 76.87.0.X --Previous Message-- : : Fundamentalist religion is a toxic, : corrosive element in America today. : Examples of this are everywhere, the most : recent being the Mormon Church's efforts in : rolling back social equality for lesbians : and gay men in California--as evidenced by : the church's spearheading of the : recently-passed Proposition 8. Any Mormon : who did not speak out against their church's : involvement in that issue is partially to : blame for the resulting travesty of justice. I do not understand, how is it a travesty of justice.  Post a Response

Re: Marry? Posted by Nina on 11/15/2008, 9:13 am, in reply to "Re: Marry?" 71.106.2.X : Religious institutions are not required, and : were never required, to marry anyone they : choose not to marry, Nina. Proposition 8 : was about refusing same-sex couples in : California access to civil marriage. The : Religious Right and their allies know this : quite well. : : "I don't see how being gay changes the : prospect of just getting on with your : life.... without asking for help from anyone : else. Maybe I'm missing something?" : : Yes, you are missing something, Nina. : Same-sex couples aren't asking for 'help.' : They're asking for equality under the law. : : If, for example, my life companion of 34 : years has a tragic accident, I could be : legally refused admittance to the hospital : emergency room to be with him, since in the : eyes of the law I am considered a legal : stranger to him. : : This sort of thing happens all the time to : same-sex couples, Nina. This is only one of : hundreds and hundreds of protections that we : do not have because we're not permitted to : marry. : : Domestic partnerships offer some protection : but are available in only a handful of : states and are generally not recognized : outside the state in which they are issued. : : Well, the laws aren't always fair, Steve. Sometimes we can find ways to get around them. You can lie. Hehe. When my ex-partner was in the hospital, I said I was his wife. No one asked for a marriage certificate. I realize that wouldn't work for same-sex couples. Say you're his brother. Will they ask for a birth certificate? Or, you could each fill out "Power of Attorney for Health" forms. I hope you get what you want. Good luck! -Nina  Post a Response

the words 'thin end' and 'wedge' spring to mind Posted by Lian Dao on 11/15/2008, 9:36 am, in reply to "Re: Marry?" 78.148.232.X --Previous Message-- : Religious institutions are not required, and : were never required, to marry anyone they : choose not to marry, Nina. Proposition 8 : was about refusing same-sex couples in : California access to civil marriage. The : Religious Right and their allies know this : quite well. : : "I don't see how being gay changes the : prospect of just getting on with your : life.... without asking for help from anyone : else. Maybe I'm missing something?" : : Yes, you are missing something, Nina. : Same-sex couples aren't asking for 'help.' : They're asking for equality under the law. : : If, for example, my life companion of 34 : years has a tragic accident, I could be : legally refused admittance to the hospital : emergency room to be with him, since in the : eyes of the law I am considered a legal : stranger to him. : : This sort of thing happens all the time to : same-sex couples, Nina. This is only one of : hundreds and hundreds of protections that we : do not have because we're not permitted to : marry. : : Domestic partnerships offer some protection : but are available in only a handful of : states and are generally not recognized : outside the state in which they are issued. : : : : Well, the laws aren't always fair, Steve. : : Sometimes we can find ways to get around : them. : : You can lie. Hehe. When my ex-partner was : in the hospital, I said I was his wife. No : one asked for a marriage certificate. I : realize that wouldn't work for same-sex : couples. Say you're his brother. Will they : ask for a birth certificate? Or, you could : each fill out "Power of Attorney for : Health" forms. : : I hope you get what you want. Good luck! : : -Nina : Obviously i have absolutely no idea just what Proposition 8 is, other than sounding like a science-fiction novel set in some neo-fascist theological dystopia, but i get the distinct impression that Proposition 8 could may well result in bringing about a neo-fascist theological dystopia. But only in America, so hey, what do i care? 'The history of liberty is the history of resistance'. Tyra Banks  Post a Response

Re: My Great- Aunt Wayne Posted by Lian Dao on 11/15/2008, 9:38 am, in reply to "Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil" 78.148.232.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : : Fundamentalist religion is a toxic, : corrosive element in America today. : Examples of this are everywhere, the most : recent being the Mormon Church's efforts in : rolling back social equality for lesbians : and gay men in California--as evidenced by : the church's spearheading of the : recently-passed Proposition 8. Any Mormon : who did not speak out against their church's : involvement in that issue is partially to : blame for the resulting travesty of justice. : : : I do not understand, how is it a travesty of : justice. : : : i do no understand how you do not understand, how it is a travesty of justice.  Post a Response

Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil Posted by Butch on 11/15/2008, 1:30 pm, in reply to "Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil" 75.88.45.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : : Fundamentalist religion is a toxic, : corrosive element in America today. : Examples of this are everywhere, the most : recent being the Mormon Church's efforts in : rolling back social equality for lesbians : and gay men in California--as evidenced by : the church's spearheading of the : recently-passed Proposition 8. Any Mormon : who did not speak out against their church's : involvement in that issue is partially to : blame for the resulting travesty of justice. : : : I do not understand, how is it a travesty of : justice. : : : wayne, Gays are the new Blacks. It is all about them now. There won't be any living with them until one of them is elected president. I believe some of them are less selfish than others but unless they speak out against their militant brethren then they are just as guilty of intolerance towards other's as their radical fundamentalist gay brothers and sisters have shown themselves to be lately. There are two kinds of change. Forced and Volitional. Militancy rarely accomplishes its aim where social change is concerned unless that aim is to be violent. Better to take the Peace Train. But they want it Now. I wish I could give it to them but they are not my type. Call me every name in the book but right now my priority is the American economy in general and the American Automobile Industry in particular. Thanks to the Saudi's and their shills in the current White House as well as the example set by some of my friends here at Tao Speaks gays wanting to get married has moved way down my to-do list. Butch  Post a Response

Equality? Posted by Nina on 11/15/2008, 7:57 pm, in reply to "the words 'thin end' and 'wedge' spring to mind" 71.105.68.X : Obviously i have absolutely no idea just : what Proposition 8 is, other than sounding : like a science-fiction novel set in some : neo-fascist theological dystopia, but i get : the distinct impression that Proposition 8 : could may well result in bringing about a : neo-fascist theological dystopia. : : But only in America, so hey, what do i care? : : : 'The history of liberty is the history of : resistance'. Tyra Banks : : Prop 8 was an attempt by the Religious Right to get rid of what we Californians had already admitted into law - that gay couples could have the right to get married and be as miserable as heterosexual couples. You would have laughed at their tv ads...... Sorry you didn't get to see them. One had a little girl coming home from school with a book titled "Princess Marries A Princess." I guess their ads were enough to scare the bejeeses out of the bible thumpers: "I ain't raisin' no fag!!!" Another interesting ad campaign was for prop 4. Again, the Religious Right wanted to make any girl under the age of 18 have to get her parent's permission to abort a pregnancy. Their most wide-spread ad showed a sleezy guy saying he could have sex with an underage girl and no one would ever find out - cause if she got pregs he could just get her to abort. Gotta love California. At least we've passed some non-laws that cause most of Amerika to lose sleep at night. Well, except for our gov Schwartzanigger and those who screamed for prop 8. But we did pass prop 2 - giving farm animals elbow room in their cages. -Nina  Post a Response

elbow room for all Posted by Lian Dao on 11/15/2008, 11:41 pm, in reply to "Equality?" 78.148.8.X --Previous Message-- : Obviously i have absolutely no idea just : what Proposition 8 is, other than sounding : like a science-fiction novel set in some : neo-fascist theological dystopia, but i get : the distinct impression that Proposition 8 : could may well result in bringing about a : neo-fascist theological dystopia. : : But only in America, so hey, what do i care? : : : 'The history of liberty is the history of : resistance'. Tyra Banks : : : : Prop 8 was an attempt by the Religious Right : to get rid of what we Californians had : already admitted into law - that gay couples : could have the right to get married and be : as miserable as heterosexual couples. : : You would have laughed at their tv ads...... : Sorry you didn't get to see them. One had : a little girl coming home from school with a : book titled "Princess Marries A : Princess." I guess their ads were : enough to scare the bejeeses out of the : bible thumpers: "I ain't raisin' no : fag!!!" : : Another interesting ad campaign was for prop : 4. Again, the Religious Right wanted to : make any girl under the age of 18 have to : get her parent's permission to abort a : pregnancy. Their most wide-spread ad showed : a sleezy guy saying he could have sex with : an underage girl and no one would ever find : out - cause if she got pregs he could just : get her to abort. : : Gotta love California. At least we've : passed some non-laws that cause most of : Amerika to lose sleep at night. Well, : except for our gov Schwartzanigger and those : who screamed for prop 8. : : But we did pass prop 2 - giving farm animals : elbow room in their cages. : Interesting how the Moral Majority broadcasts its message, and the level it aims at. You do know that Schwartzneggar (sp?) was a member of the Waffen-SS, back home in his native Austria? Strange how this is never mentioned.  Post a Response

by any means neccesary - Malcolm X Posted by Lian Dao on 11/15/2008, 11:47 pm, in reply to "Re: My Great- Aunt Sybil" 78.148.8.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : : Fundamentalist religion is a toxic, : corrosive element in America today. : Examples of this are everywhere, the most : recent being the Mormon Church's efforts in : rolling back social equality for lesbians : and gay men in California--as evidenced by : the church's spearheading of the : recently-passed Proposition 8. Any Mormon : who did not speak out against their church's : involvement in that issue is partially to : blame for the resulting travesty of justice. : : : I do not understand, how is it a travesty of : justice. : : : : wayne, : : Gays are the new Blacks. It is all about : them now. There won't be any living with : them until one of them is elected president. : I believe some of them are less selfish than : others but unless they speak out against : their militant brethren then they are just : as guilty of intolerance towards other's as : their radical fundamentalist gay brothers : and sisters have shown themselves to be : lately. : : There are two kinds of change. Forced and : Volitional. Militancy rarely accomplishes : its aim where social change is concerned : unless that aim is to be violent. Better to : take the Peace Train. But they want it Now. : I wish I could give it to them but they are : not my type. : : Call me every name in the book but right now : my priority is the American economy in : general and the American Automobile Industry : in particular. Thanks to the Saudi's and : their shills in the current White House as : well as the example set by some of my : friends here at Tao Speaks gays wanting to : get married has moved way down my to-do : list. : i think that you've pretty much covered it all there Butch. Of course, all of that is entirely your own opinion and as you are not, as i am aware, in any direct influencing contact with those that regulate the American economy nor those that pass legislation on civil partnership, then those opinions don't really amount to a small to medium hill of beans now do they?  Post a Response

Re: elbow room for all Posted by Steve on 11/16/2008, 9:41 am, in reply to "elbow room for all" 69.140.59.X : You do know that Schwartzneggar (sp?) was a : member of the Waffen-SS, back home in his : native Austria? Strange how this is never : mentioned. ------------------------- Schwarzenegger is among the last of a dying breed--a moderate Republican. Conservative on fiscal matters and moderate on social issues. Very few of them left. The theo-fascists have seen to that. Nina has given a good summary of Proposition 8, which was just the latest effort by the theo-fascists to make the country over in their image. With Barack Obama's election they won't have quite the seat at the table that they've had for the past 8 years, and that's good news indeed. More good news for those who believe in equality and civil rights: the demographics are not on the side of the intolerant. Exit polls showed that the vast majority of those who voted for Proposition 8 were over age 65, and that the vast majority of those who voted against were under 40. Look ahead into the coming decades, and do the math. All is well. :)  Post a Response

transcending the limits Posted by Lian Dao on 11/16/2008, 10:17 am, in reply to "Re: elbow room for all" 78.144.181.X --Previous Message-- : You do know that Schwartzneggar (sp?) was a : member of the Waffen-SS, back home in his : native Austria? Strange how this is never : mentioned. : : ------------------------- : : Schwarzenegger is among the last of a dying : breed--a moderate Republican. Conservative : on fiscal matters and moderate on social : issues. Very few of them left. The : theo-fascists have seen to that. : : Nina has given a good summary of Proposition : 8, which was just the latest effort by the : theo-fascists to make the country over in : their image. With Barack Obama's election : they won't have quite the seat at the table : that they've had for the past 8 years, and : that's good news indeed. : : More good news for those who believe in : equality and civil rights: the demographics : are not on the side of the intolerant. Exit : polls showed that the vast majority of those : who voted for Proposition 8 were over age : 65, and that the vast majority of those who : voted against were under 40. : : Look ahead into the coming decades, and do : the math. : : All is well. :) : : i meant to say that Arnie's FATHER was a member of the Waffen-SS during ww2 and not that he was. *gulp* i hope that he doesn't read this. Of course the intolerant are a dying breed. There simply isn't going to be enough room and resources left on the planet to get so upset about what other people get upto in their spare time.  Post a Response

Re: by any means neccesary - Malcolm X Posted by Butch on 11/16/2008, 10:22 am, in reply to "by any means neccesary - Malcolm X" 71.30.136.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : : Fundamentalist religion is a toxic, : corrosive element in America today. : Examples of this are everywhere, the most : recent being the Mormon Church's efforts in : rolling back social equality for lesbians : and gay men in California--as evidenced by : the church's spearheading of the : recently-passed Proposition 8. Any Mormon : who did not speak out against their church's : involvement in that issue is partially to : blame for the resulting travesty of justice. : : : I do not understand, how is it a travesty of : justice. : : : : wayne, : : Gays are the new Blacks. It is all about : them now. There won't be any living with : them until one of them is elected president. : I believe some of them are less selfish than : others but unless they speak out against : their militant brethren then they are just : as guilty of intolerance towards other's as : their radical fundamentalist gay brothers : and sisters have shown themselves to be : lately. : : There are two kinds of change. Forced and : Volitional. Militancy rarely accomplishes : its aim where social change is concerned : unless that aim is to be violent. Better to : take the Peace Train. But they want it Now. : I wish I could give it to them but they are : not my type. : : Call me every name in the book but right now : my priority is the American economy in : general and the American Automobile Industry : in particular. Thanks to the Saudi's and : their shills in the current White House as : well as the example set by some of my : friends here at Tao Speaks gays wanting to : get married has moved way down my to-do : list. : : : : i think that you've pretty much covered it : all there Butch. Of course, all of that is : entirely your own opinion and as you are : not, as i am aware, in any direct : influencing contact with those that regulate : the American economy nor those that pass : legislation on civil partnership, then those : opinions don't really amount to a small to : medium hill of beans now do they? : L... Kerri, You are so predictable. Butch  Post a Response

pink is the new black Posted by Lian Dao on 11/16/2008, 10:27 am, in reply to "Re: by any means neccesary - Malcolm X" 78.144.181.X --Previous Message-- : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : : Fundamentalist religion is a toxic, : corrosive element in America today. : Examples of this are everywhere, the most : recent being the Mormon Church's efforts in : rolling back social equality for lesbians : and gay men in California--as evidenced by : the church's spearheading of the : recently-passed Proposition 8. Any Mormon : who did not speak out against their church's : involvement in that issue is partially to : blame for the resulting travesty of justice. : : : I do not understand, how is it a travesty of : justice. : : : : wayne, : : Gays are the new Blacks. It is all about : them now. There won't be any living with : them until one of them is elected president. : I believe some of them are less selfish than : others but unless they speak out against : their militant brethren then they are just : as guilty of intolerance towards other's as : their radical fundamentalist gay brothers : and sisters have shown themselves to be : lately. : : There are two kinds of change. Forced and : Volitional. Militancy rarely accomplishes : its aim where social change is concerned : unless that aim is to be violent. Better to : take the Peace Train. But they want it Now. : I wish I could give it to them but they are : not my type. : : Call me every name in the book but right now : my priority is the American economy in : general and the American Automobile Industry : in particular. Thanks to the Saudi's and : their shills in the current White House as : well as the example set by some of my : friends here at Tao Speaks gays wanting to : get married has moved way down my to-do : list. : : : : i think that you've pretty much covered it : all there Butch. Of course, all of that is : entirely your own opinion and as you are : not, as i am aware, in any direct : influencing contact with those that regulate : the American economy nor those that pass : legislation on civil partnership, then those : opinions don't really amount to a small to : medium hill of beans now do they? : : : L... Kerri, : : You are so predictable. : : Butch : Oh come on Butch.  Post a Response

Re: by any means neccesary - Malcolm X Posted by Steve on 11/16/2008, 10:51 am, in reply to "Re: by any means neccesary - Malcolm X" 69.140.59.X : L... Kerri, : : You are so predictable. : : Butch -------------------------- Butch, It's important that your nonsense on this board be as clear and plain as possible. Josef and I are too old to waste time trying to figure out your esoterica. I have ligament injuries of the right arm and she suffers from lord-knows-how-many ailments, all of which she endures in stride. Like you, as a youth I engaged in certain illegal and ill-considered activities that left me feeble and brain-deficient. Please be kind and explain your post above. Steve  Post a Response

Marriage vs. Civil Union Posted by josef on 11/16/2008, 12:21 pm, in reply to "Re: by any means neccesary - Malcolm X" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : Butch, : : It's important that your nonsense on this : board be as clear and plain as possible. : : Josef and I are too old to waste time trying : to figure out your esoterica. I have : ligament injuries of the right arm and she : suffers from lord-knows-how-many ailments, : all of which she endures in stride. : : Like you, as a youth I engaged in certain : illegal and ill-considered activities that : left me feeble and brain-deficient. : : Please be kind and explain your post above. : : Steve I have, inexplicably, not a single ailment in my advanced years, but admit to addled understanding of how Obama's spirituality topic turned into gay marriage rights and Malcolm X. On the marriage rights thing: it's one of those instances when my "reification" measure shines bright. Marriage reification...enormous! Religious sacred marriage, sacrament. Civil marriage still tinted (tainted) with the religious implications, i.e. man/woman/procreation. Setting every last reification aside, it is literally a legal status, and as such there is no reason why it couldn't be available to any couple committed in relationship who wanted it. That said, getting beyond tons and eons of societal/religio reifications isn't likely. One thing I'd wanted to ask you, but hesitated, seems now worth asking. A close old friend of mine (who isn't gay)was greatly upset that his fellow-Californians did the Prop 8 thing, and I have been having an ongoing discourse about the issue. The fact that where legal status with full rights (!) has been proposed, the gay community wasn't interested, but wanted the full enchilada: Marriage. Civil Union designation, even though it held all the same rights, wasn't acceptable. This has been our wonder-about: Why not? Does it have something to do with wanting society's full acceptance(in the reified sense) of coupleness as being the same as in equal or some such whatever? As my friend and I have both by choice had long term relationships without marriage, we can't quite figure out why Marriage status is so desired, even necessary to those who insist upon it. Any insights? (Ignore, if you'd rather not get into it. The discussion veered this way, so thought I'd ask.) josef  Post a Response

Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union Posted by Butch on 11/16/2008, 1:28 pm, in reply to "Marriage vs. Civil Union" 71.30.136.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : Butch, : : It's important that your nonsense on this : board be as clear and plain as possible. : : Josef and I are too old to waste time trying : to figure out your esoterica. I have : ligament injuries of the right arm and she : suffers from lord-knows-how-many ailments, : all of which she endures in stride. : : Like you, as a youth I engaged in certain : illegal and ill-considered activities that : left me feeble and brain-deficient. : : Please be kind and explain your post above. : : Steve : : I have, inexplicably, not a single ailment : in my advanced years, but admit to addled : understanding of how Obama's spirituality : topic turned into gay marriage rights and : Malcolm X. : : On the marriage rights thing: it's one of : those instances when my : "reification" measure shines : bright. Marriage reification...enormous! : Religious sacred marriage, sacrament. Civil : marriage still tinted (tainted) with the : religious implications, i.e. : man/woman/procreation. Setting every last : reification aside, it is literally a legal : status, and as such there is no reason why : it couldn't be available to any couple : committed in relationship who wanted it. : : That said, getting beyond tons and eons of : societal/religio reifications isn't likely. : : One thing I'd wanted to ask you, but : hesitated, seems now worth asking. A close : old friend of mine (who isn't gay)was : greatly upset that his fellow-Californians : did the Prop 8 thing, and I have been having : an ongoing discourse about the issue. The : fact that where legal status with full : rights (!) has been proposed, the gay : community wasn't interested, but wanted the : full enchilada: Marriage. Civil Union : designation, even though it held all the : same rights, wasn't acceptable. : : This has been our wonder-about: Why not? : Does it have something to do with wanting : society's full acceptance(in the reified : sense) of coupleness as being the same as in : equal or some such whatever? : : As my friend and I have both by choice had : long term relationships without marriage, we : can't quite figure out why Marriage status : is so desired, even necessary to those who : insist upon it. Any insights? : : (Ignore, if you'd rather not get into it. : The discussion veered this way, so thought : I'd ask.) : : josef : josef, Lots of luck getting a straight answer to your question. It is a common practice of those self-absorbed ones like Kerri to get off on tangentially subverting the thread of another since they don't have anything of merit to say. Look up the word "Flamer" in a dictionary and there you will find a picture of kerri. Steve---Kerri is Lian Dao. I thought you knew that. Kerri, kerri, caliope, LD, Lian Dao, the voice is always the same only the name changes to suit her purposes. Pitty really, she has so much to offer but her low self-esteem just can't let her come out of the closet of her conditioning. Pray for her. Not in a mean way, but in a positive way. Dear Tao please help kerri realize that she is worthy of other people's respect and that such respect will come her way when she starts respecting herself. The false-bravado she exudes is only because of the anonymity the Net provides her. Deep down there is a kerri we would all like to get to know. A warm compassionate being with a heart of gold. My mistake is that I ever thought I could convince her otherwise. That is my problem not hers. All any of us can do is point at the Moon where others are concerned. Let him or her that is without sin be the first to cast dispersions. No one can take the journey of self-realization for us. It is something we each have to do for ourselves. All we can do is encourage each other. Pretty much the opposite tack that kerri takes. Her diatribes are more a comment about her own inner reality than the supposed reality she sees in others. Such is the human predicament. For all of us, to one degree or another. I am chief among sinners. It is time for me to check out of the hotel tao speaks. Contrary to gar Tao Speaks is not the Hotel Tao. The hotel tao that can be checked into is not the Hotel Tao. I may or may not check in again here someday but I will take what few moments of comradery I glimpsed here with me. While I have for the most part been shouting at windmills here and only managing to bore other's to sleep life has been passing me by. Silly me I guess I am just a silly monkey after all. It is time for me to go home. Butch  Post a Response

Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union Posted by Steve on 11/16/2008, 2:20 pm, in reply to "Marriage vs. Civil Union" 69.140.59.X Hi josef, The movement for marriage equality is a civil (rights) movement. No gay-related court ruling or law ever enacted in the U.S. has ever compelled religious institutions to do or recognize anything they didn't choose to do or recognize. No one in the mainstream gay rights movement has ever advocated for compelling religious bodies to perform or recognize same-sex marriages if they choose not to. The argument that same-sex marriage equality somehow impinges on the rights of the faithful is a red herring--designed to detract from the real issue, which is the desire of some to abolish the church/state line that has historically existed in the U.S. Not just with respect to gay rights, but also with respect to a woman's right to choose, prayer in public places, the teaching of Creationism, etc. "That said, getting beyond tons and eons of societal/religio reifications isn't likely." I agree. No one I know is focusing their energies on getting others to 'get beyond it.' You (generically speaking) believe what you believe, and allow me to do the same. Our personally-held religious or spiritual beliefs--yours and mine both--must never be allowed to become the law of the land. "The fact that where legal status with full rights (!) has been proposed, the gay community wasn't interested, but wanted the full enchilada: Marriage. Civil Union designation, even though it held all the same rights, wasn't acceptable." It's the 'Separate but Equal' issue, josef. Should African-Americans have settled for the right to travel city busses as long as they sat in the back rows? After all, that would have gotten them from Point A to Point B, just like the white folks. Either one believes in full equality under the law, or not. Certainly, there are logistical and strategic considerations in reaching the goal of equality. Civil unions, in states where full marriage equality may not today be feasible, seem a good interim step toward achieving marriage equality for gay couples--and, by the way, for straight couples who, for whatever reason, may elect civil unions in lieu of marriage. Being consigned to the back of the bus is not full equality. People of good will--be they straight or gay--sense that...don't you think? "As my friend and I have both by choice had long term relationships without marriage, we can't quite figure out why Marriage status is so desired, even necessary to those who insist upon it. Any insights?" There are many many benefits and protections afforded married couples that are not afforded couples who cannot legally marry. For this reason, civil unions are not an acceptable long-term alternative to full marriage equality. As I suggested in a post to Nina yesterday, google the subject if you're interested in learning more, josef. You'll be surprised by what you find. Steve  Post a Response

Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union Posted by josef on 11/16/2008, 2:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : josef, : : Lots of luck getting a straight answer to : your question. It is a common practice of : those self-absorbed ones like Kerri to get : off on tangentially subverting the thread of : another since they don't have anything of : merit to say. Look up the word : "Flamer" in a dictionary and there : you will find a picture of kerri. : : Steve---Kerri is Lian Dao. I thought you : knew that. Kerri, kerri, caliope, LD, Lian : Dao, the voice is always the same only the : name changes to suit her purposes. Pitty : really, she has so much to offer but her low : self-esteem just can't let her come out of : the closet of her conditioning. Pray for : her. Not in a mean way, but in a positive : way. Dear Tao please help kerri realize that : she is worthy of other people's respect and : that such respect will come her way when she : starts respecting herself. The false-bravado : she exudes is only because of the anonymity : the Net provides her. Deep down there is a : kerri we would all like to get to know. A : warm compassionate being with a heart of : gold. My mistake is that I ever thought I : could convince her otherwise. That is my : problem not hers. All any of us can do is : point at the Moon where others are : concerned. Let him or her that is without : sin be the first to cast dispersions. : : No one can take the journey of : self-realization for us. It is something we : each have to do for ourselves. All we can do : is encourage each other. Pretty much the : opposite tack that kerri takes. Her : diatribes are more a comment about her own : inner reality than the supposed reality she : sees in others. Such is the human : predicament. For all of us, to one degree or : another. I am chief among sinners. : : It is time for me to check out of the hotel : tao speaks. Contrary to gar Tao Speaks is : not the Hotel Tao. The hotel tao that can be : checked into is not the Hotel Tao. I may or : may not check in again here someday but I : will take what few moments of comradery I : glimpsed here with me. While I have for the : most part been shouting at windmills here : and only managing to bore other's to sleep : life has been passing me by. Silly me I : guess I am just a silly monkey after all. It : is time for me to go home. : : Butch Butch, I don't know about the Kerri/Lin Dao thing, but with your feeling it time to "go home", I realize I regret you and I couldn't have had more discussions about Taoist practice and principles. I think we could have benefited by exploring some of the things we were understanding and learning together. Oh well..discussions just took a different turn here, with what we "most desired contented least", and often just sounded like chatroom diatribes, not my thing. Others seem to be having a fine time, though, so no harm, no blame. Wishing you very well indeed, josef  Post a Response

Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union Posted by Butch on 11/16/2008, 2:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union" 71.30.136.X --Previous Message-- : Hi josef, : : The movement for marriage equality is a : civil (rights) movement. No gay-related : court ruling or law ever enacted in the U.S. : has ever compelled religious institutions to : do or recognize anything they didn't choose : to do or recognize. No one in the : mainstream gay rights movement has ever : advocated for compelling religious bodies to : perform or recognize same-sex marriages if : they choose not to. : : The argument that same-sex marriage equality : somehow impinges on the rights of the : faithful is a red herring--designed to : detract from the real issue, which is the : desire of some to abolish the church/state : line that has historically existed in the : U.S. Not just with respect to gay rights, : but also with respect to a woman's right to : choose, prayer in public places, the : teaching of Creationism, etc. : : "That said, getting beyond tons and : eons of societal/religio reifications isn't : likely." : : I agree. No one I know is focusing their : energies on getting others to 'get beyond : it.' You (generically speaking) believe : what you believe, and allow me to do the : same. Our personally-held religious or : spiritual beliefs--yours and mine both--must : never be allowed to become the law of the : land. : : "The fact that where legal status with : full rights (!) has been proposed, the gay : community wasn't interested, but wanted the : full enchilada: Marriage. Civil Union : designation, even though it held all the : same rights, wasn't acceptable." : : It's the 'Separate but Equal' issue, josef. : : Should African-Americans have settled for : the right to travel city busses as long as : they sat in the back rows? After all, that : would have gotten them from Point A to Point : B, just like the white folks. Either one : believes in full equality under the law, or : not. : : Certainly, there are logistical and : strategic considerations in reaching the : goal of equality. Civil unions, in states : where full marriage equality may not today : be feasible, seem a good interim step toward : achieving marriage equality for gay : couples--and, by the way, for straight : couples who, for whatever reason, may elect : civil unions in lieu of marriage. : : Being consigned to the back of the bus is : not full equality. People of good will--be : they straight or gay--sense that...don't you : think? : : "As my friend and I have both by choice : had long term relationships without : marriage, we can't quite figure out why : Marriage status is so desired, even : necessary to those who insist upon it. Any : insights?" : : There are many many benefits and protections : afforded married couples that are not : afforded couples who cannot legally marry. : For this reason, civil unions are not an : acceptable long-term alternative to full : marriage equality. : : As I suggested in a post to Nina yesterday, : google the subject if you're interested in : learning more, josef. You'll be surprised : by what you find. : : Steve : : : : : Steve, Civil Unions could be made to confirm every legal right of Marraige. It is all a matter of legislation. If I were King, Civil Unions would have the same legal weight as marraige. I just wanted you to know that. Butch  Post a Response

Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union Posted by Steve on 11/16/2008, 4:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union" 69.140.59.X : Steve, : : Civil Unions could be made to confirm every : legal right of Marraige. It is all a matter : of legislation. If I were King, Civil Unions : would have the same legal weight as : marriage. I just wanted you to know that. : : Butch ----------------------- Thanks for the sentiment, Butch. I think I understand where you're coming from, and realize you mean me no harm. Steve  Post a Response

question for Lian Dao Posted by Steve on 11/16/2008, 5:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union" 69.140.59.X : Steve---Kerri is Lian Dao. I thought you : knew that. ------------------ Lian Dao, Are you really Kerri? Do you have...um...lady parts? No problem if you do. Just wondering. Steve (sorry...that was two questions...)  Post a Response

Kerri vs. Lian Dao Posted by Nina on 11/16/2008, 7:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union" 71.106.28.X : Steve---Kerri is Lian Dao. I thought you : knew that. Kerri, kerri, caliope, LD, Lian : Dao, the voice is always the same only the : name changes to suit her purposes. I know Kerri and I know Lian Dao. They are NOT the same person. I find it offensive and insulting that you'd suggest Lian Dao is Kerri. Lian Dao has more knowledge and insight in his little finger than Kerri could ever hope for. If this is an example of what you believe to be true, then I'm probably wise not to take anything else you say seriously. -Nina  Post a Response

Re: question for Lian Dao Posted by Nina on 11/16/2008, 7:26 pm, in reply to "question for Lian Dao" 71.106.28.X --Previous Message-- : Steve---Kerri is Lian Dao. I thought you : knew that. : : ------------------ : : Lian Dao, : : Are you really Kerri? : : Do you have...um...lady parts? : : No problem if you do. Just wondering. : : Steve : : (sorry...that was two questions...) : : No, Kerri's balls are hiding behind Starjumper's dick.  Post a Response

Re: elbow room for all Posted by Nina on 11/16/2008, 7:32 pm, in reply to "elbow room for all" 71.106.28.X : Schwartzneggar (sp?) I spelt his name wrong on purpose. Schwartza in Yiddish means "black." Bad joke, I know. How un-PC of me! -Nina  Post a Response

Re: elbow room for all Posted by Nina on 11/16/2008, 7:38 pm, in reply to "Re: elbow room for all" 71.106.28.X Exit : polls showed that the vast majority of those : who voted for Proposition 8 were over age : 65, and that the vast majority of those who : voted against were under 40. My neighbor brought up an interesting point today. Proposition 8 was confusing. People who voted "yes" might have thought they were voting for gay marriages. I had to explain what a NO vote meant to quite a few people. Those nasty fundamentalists love preying on the addle-pated oldsters. Hehe. There's always hope, Steve. But then...... Be careful what you wish for. Just thought I'd throw that in. -Nina  Post a Response

Re: question for Lian Dao Posted by Steve on 11/16/2008, 7:48 pm, in reply to "Re: question for Lian Dao" 69.140.59.X : Steve---Kerri is Lian Dao. I thought you : knew that. : : ------------------ : : Lian Dao, : : Are you really Kerri? : : Do you have...um...lady parts? : : No problem if you do. Just wondering. : : Steve : : (sorry...that was two questions...) --------------------- : No, Kerri's balls are hiding behind : Starjumper's dick. --------------------- I love you, Nina.  Post a Response

Re: elbow room for all Posted by Steve on 11/16/2008, 8:12 pm, in reply to "Re: elbow room for all" 69.140.59.X : I spelt his name wrong on purpose. : Schwartza in Yiddish means : "black." Bad joke, I know. How : un-PC of me! ----------------------- Lian Dao, being of 50 percent Ashkenazi Jewish stock, probably knew that. In any case, he's familiar with Woody Allen's work, so he would have picked it up there. I am of 100 percent Ashkenazi stock. Did I ever tell you I was 12 years old when I learned that the thing with 4 wheels that you drive down the road is commonly referred to in the United States as a 'car'? My maternal grandmother--may she rest in peace, that good woman--would say to me "So, Stevie darling," (that's what they called me) "your father is taking you and your mother for a drive today in the machine?"  Post a Response

some answers from Lian Dao Posted by Lian Dao on 11/17/2008, 1:34 am, in reply to "question for Lian Dao" 89.242.142.X --Previous Message-- : Steve---Kerri is Lian Dao. I thought you : knew that. : : ------------------ : : Lian Dao, : : Are you really Kerri? : : Do you have...um...lady parts? : : No problem if you do. Just wondering. : : Steve : : (sorry...that was two questions...) : : : Steve, In answer to you first question, unfortunately, no i am not Kerri. Or Calliope. Or whoever is haunting Butch's nightmares this particular evening. i do however like the fact that Butch appears to have lost his grip after a not very, hardly, even non-heated debate, which is always uncomfortable but guiltily enjoyable to observe and make notes from for furtue reference. In answer to your second query, well, i do have nipples. Do they count?  Post a Response

a throw of the dice Posted by Lian Dao on 11/17/2008, 1:53 am, in reply to "Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union" 89.242.142.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : Butch, : : It's important that your nonsense on this : board be as clear and plain as possible. : : Josef and I are too old to waste time trying : to figure out your esoterica. I have : ligament injuries of the right arm and she : suffers from lord-knows-how-many ailments, : all of which she endures in stride. : : Like you, as a youth I engaged in certain : illegal and ill-considered activities that : left me feeble and brain-deficient. : : Please be kind and explain your post above. : : Steve : : I have, inexplicably, not a single ailment : in my advanced years, but admit to addled : understanding of how Obama's spirituality : topic turned into gay marriage rights and : Malcolm X. : : On the marriage rights thing: it's one of : those instances when my : "reification" measure shines : bright. Marriage reification...enormous! : Religious sacred marriage, sacrament. Civil : marriage still tinted (tainted) with the : religious implications, i.e. : man/woman/procreation. Setting every last : reification aside, it is literally a legal : status, and as such there is no reason why : it couldn't be available to any couple : committed in relationship who wanted it. : : That said, getting beyond tons and eons of : societal/religio reifications isn't likely. : : One thing I'd wanted to ask you, but : hesitated, seems now worth asking. A close : old friend of mine (who isn't gay)was : greatly upset that his fellow-Californians : did the Prop 8 thing, and I have been having : an ongoing discourse about the issue. The : fact that where legal status with full : rights (!) has been proposed, the gay : community wasn't interested, but wanted the : full enchilada: Marriage. Civil Union : designation, even though it held all the : same rights, wasn't acceptable. : : This has been our wonder-about: Why not? : Does it have something to do with wanting : society's full acceptance(in the reified : sense) of coupleness as being the same as in : equal or some such whatever? : : As my friend and I have both by choice had : long term relationships without marriage, we : can't quite figure out why Marriage status : is so desired, even necessary to those who : insist upon it. Any insights? : : (Ignore, if you'd rather not get into it. : The discussion veered this way, so thought : I'd ask.) : : josef : : josef, : : Lots of luck getting a straight answer to : your question. It is a common practice of : those self-absorbed ones like Kerri to get : off on tangentially subverting the thread of : another since they don't have anything of : merit to say. Look up the word : "Flamer" in a dictionary and there : you will find a picture of kerri. : : Steve---Kerri is Lian Dao. I thought you : knew that. Kerri, kerri, caliope, LD, Lian : Dao, the voice is always the same only the : name changes to suit her purposes. Pitty : really, she has so much to offer but her low : self-esteem just can't let her come out of : the closet of her conditioning. Pray for : her. Not in a mean way, but in a positive : way. Dear Tao please help kerri realize that : she is worthy of other people's respect and : that such respect will come her way when she : starts respecting herself. The false-bravado : she exudes is only because of the anonymity : the Net provides her. Deep down there is a : kerri we would all like to get to know. A : warm compassionate being with a heart of : gold. My mistake is that I ever thought I : could convince her otherwise. That is my : problem not hers. All any of us can do is : point at the Moon where others are : concerned. Let him or her that is without : sin be the first to cast dispersions. : : No one can take the journey of : self-realization for us. It is something we : each have to do for ourselves. All we can do : is encourage each other. Pretty much the : opposite tack that kerri takes. Her : diatribes are more a comment about her own : inner reality than the supposed reality she : sees in others. Such is the human : predicament. For all of us, to one degree or : another. I am chief among sinners. : : It is time for me to check out of the hotel : tao speaks. Contrary to gar Tao Speaks is : not the Hotel Tao. The hotel tao that can be : checked into is not the Hotel Tao. I may or : may not check in again here someday but I : will take what few moments of comradery I : glimpsed here with me. While I have for the : most part been shouting at windmills here : and only managing to bore other's to sleep : life has been passing me by. Silly me I : guess I am just a silly monkey after all. It : is time for me to go home. : It's very brave of you to chronicle for us your ongoing descent into paranoia, however, Butch, your attempts to fend off this debate which you clearly have no inclination to engage in other than to post 'screw you' would, arguably, be more indicative of your own inner reality than those whom you now percieve of and project as being engaged in a persecution campaign against you. As we both well know, well, at least as i presumed at least one of us knew, we are proffering our OPINION. You proffered yours, and i, well i proffered mine which was counter to yours. However tangenital it may appear, i reserve the right to post that which i choose, and in the absence of moderators, invariably i get away with it. The same applies to you, however as a PUBLIC forum and not your own personal property you, and i, will come up against those that do not share our opinion. To throw the game up in the air and then to stomp off like an upset child because you don't think that you are 'winning', is perfectly acceptable behaviour and one of a number of choices at your disposal. Clearly, you hold your own gilded opinions in much more esteem than i do. And for that, i apologise, and promise never to question them again.  Post a Response

Re: Kerri could well be Lian Dao Posted by Lian Dao on 11/17/2008, 2:04 am, in reply to "Kerri vs. Lian Dao" 89.242.142.X --Previous Message-- : : Steve---Kerri is Lian Dao. I thought you : knew that. Kerri, kerri, caliope, LD, Lian : Dao, the voice is always the same only the : name changes to suit her purposes. : : I know Kerri and I know Lian Dao. They are : NOT the same person. I find it offensive : and insulting that you'd suggest Lian Dao is : Kerri. Lian Dao has more knowledge and : insight in his little finger than Kerri : could ever hope for. : : If this is an example of what you believe to : be true, then I'm probably wise not to take : anything else you say seriously. : : Thank you for that Nina but go easy on the 'bigging me up', okay. You know i have no little fingers after that terrible accident. If Butch wants to play silly buggers then let him. In a couple of days or so he'll post his obligatory, 'ooh get me everybody i was only joking' post and try and get things back to normal, whatever that is. The fact is that i'm getting too past it to play 'he says/she says'. Butch is free to believe that i am whoever he wants me to be. Maybe i am Kerri? Maybe i'm not? Maybe i don't actually even care one way or the other?  Post a Response

a prisoner of conscience Posted by Lian Dao on 11/17/2008, 2:25 am, in reply to "Re: elbow room for all" 89.242.142.X --Previous Message-- : I spelt his name wrong on purpose. : Schwartza in Yiddish means : "black." Bad joke, I know. How : un-PC of me! : : ----------------------- : : Lian Dao, being of 50 percent Ashkenazi : Jewish stock, probably knew that. In any : case, he's familiar with Woody Allen's work, : so he would have picked it up there. : : I am of 100 percent Ashkenazi stock. : : Did I ever tell you I was 12 years old when : I learned that the thing with 4 wheels that : you drive down the road is commonly referred : to in the United States as a 'car'? : : My maternal grandmother--may she rest in : peace, that good woman--would say to me : "So, Stevie darling," (that's what : they called me) "your father is taking : you and your mother for a drive today in the : machine?" : : : : Yes Steve i did know that. However Nina's spelling then went onto further confuse me and i couldn't think how to spell it. (You will note that i refrained from spelling it again.) And also yes Nina, your attempt at humour was borderline racist but luckily for you i have been quaranteened (sp?) until ongoing investigations to establish my true identity have been concluded by the TS Commitee for Unamerican Activities. During this time i am compelled to merely observe and not participate in proceedings here that would involve me engaging in contrary debate which may be classified as 'militant and subversive' and 'likely to incite, enrage or cause tantrum'. So i can only agree with you for the time being.  Post a Response

Re: some answers from Lian Dao Posted by Steve on 11/17/2008, 8:02 am, in reply to "some answers from Lian Dao" 69.140.59.X : Steve, : : In answer to you first question, : unfortunately, no i am not Kerri. Or : Calliope. Or whoever is haunting Butch's : nightmares this particular evening. i do : however like the fact that Butch appears to : have lost his grip after a not very, hardly, : even non-heated debate, which is always : uncomfortable but guiltily enjoyable to : observe and make notes from for furtue : reference. : : In answer to your second query, well, i do : have nipples. Do they count? ------------------------ Thank you for that, Lian Dao. I'm much relieved to learn you aren't a wizard from that other place. Though I must confess I was beginning to wonder why my teeth are falling out and I can no longer urinate like normal men. Btw, the mention of your nipples has aroused the savage beast in josef. Don't ask me how I know. I just know.  Post a Response

Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union Posted by josef on 11/17/2008, 8:43 am, in reply to "Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : It's the 'Separate but Equal' issue, josef. : : Should African-Americans have settled for : the right to travel city busses as long as : they sat in the back rows? After all, that : would have gotten them from Point A to Point : B, just like the white folks. Either one : believes in full equality under the law, or : not. : : Certainly, there are logistical and : strategic considerations in reaching the : goal of equality. Civil unions, in states : where full marriage equality may not today : be feasible, seem a good interim step toward : achieving marriage equality for gay : couples--and, by the way, for straight : couples who, for whatever reason, may elect : civil unions in lieu of marriage. : : Being consigned to the back of the bus is : not full equality. People of good will--be : they straight or gay--sense that...don't you : think? : There are many many benefits and protections : afforded married couples that are not : afforded couples who cannot legally marry. : For this reason, civil unions are not an : acceptable long-term alternative to full : marriage equality. : : As I suggested in a post to Nina yesterday, : google the subject if you're interested in : learning more, josef. You'll be surprised : by what you find. : : Steve Thanks for your response, Steve. I agree with all you say. It was the insistence on the designation "marriage" if *full rights were given in Civil Union* we were curious about...if there is a psychological (reification attachment) sweetness and satisfaction to the first, entirely lacking in the latter. I've watched both African-Americans and gays as societal groups do the full pendulum swing, from being entirely put-back/shunned/disenfranchised to Black Pride and Gay Pride...complete with parages. No need for brunette-pride or blue-eye-pride parades; there's no dismissing to be overcome, no in-your-face defiance of the years of insulting dismissal. The swing (Wulf will appreciate this) the necessary break from the old way to the new way. After watching with the alarm the possibility that McCain/Palin's hate rhetoric would stir enough animosity to actually win the White House, being able then to set policies and horrifying, appoint Supreme Court Justices. Our country led by bigotry. Ruined. Instead, for the first time in history, a bi-racial, multi-cultural person with a kind heart and a calm mind is in the most powerful position in the world. This is world-altering! Oh, my friend, times may be hard, financial crisis, war, etc., one thing we know: this President is going to represent and lead by example, and shame by contrast any who don't embrace equality, decency and respect for all peoples of all religions, sexual orientations, genders, ideologies, politics. The time when any of those differences are simply variations of our diversity, our humanity, and equally accepted is far off still, but for the first time I can remember, (and I'm sort of old), there's actual hope that real leadership will get us going in that direction. No person left behind, no back-of-the-bus, less good message to any man, woman, child. The societal pendulums swinging slighty when adjustment needed then coming to rest in balance, harmony, good will and mutual respect; our individual pendulums doing the same. The Revolution has begun. josef  Post a Response

Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union Posted by gar on 11/17/2008, 9:09 am, in reply to "Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union" 70.100.199.X Greetings Josef, Re; "The societal pendulums swinging slighty when adjustment needed then coming to rest in balance, harmony, good will and mutual respect; our individual pendulums doing the same." It seems to me Josef that the swing never stops and our human nature will not allow sociopolitical peace. Imo, there will always be more people with troubled minds as opposed to those who are at peace with themselves and the way 'of the way'. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union Posted by josef on 11/17/2008, 9:44 am, in reply to "Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : : Greetings Josef, : : Re; "The societal pendulums swinging : slighty when adjustment needed then coming : to rest in balance, harmony, good will and : mutual respect; our individual pendulums : doing the same." : : It seems to me Josef that the swing never : stops and our human nature will not allow : sociopolitical peace. : Imo, there will always be more people with : troubled minds as opposed to those who are : at peace with themselves and the way 'of the : way'. : : in peace, : gar You're right, of course, there will always be troubled minds. And there are so many now, so much hatred and division, leading to new generations of hatred and even more division. An endless spiral down. Until something changes, something changes the dynamic. Something has happened to change the dynamic. Have you read of the reactions from all over the world to Obama's election? The hope? Most people all over the world are just like us, individuals wanting peace, safety, love and laughter, enough to eat, health, friends: a good life. Things have gone so badly amok, the world is crying for hope, desperate for change. Now there is some hope. There is a new Possibility. And it's being felt all over the world. This creates the chance for real change to happen...the openness creates it. Never stasis. Never total balance or total peace. As long as the mind of man exists cruelty and inhumanity exist, as well as hope and love. But the one true thing is nothing stays the same, all things change. It's good to see the possibility that for the first time in a very long time, the change may be for the better, for all. How it seems from my pea patch, gar. josef  Post a Response

Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union Posted by gar on 11/17/2008, 9:57 am, in reply to "Re: Marriage vs. Civil Union" 70.100.199.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Greetings Josef, : : Re; "The societal pendulums swinging : slighty when adjustment needed then coming : to rest in balance, harmony, good will and : mutual respect; our individual pendulums : doing the same." : : It seems to me Josef that the swing never : stops and our human nature will not allow : sociopolitical peace. : Imo, there will always be more people with : troubled minds as opposed to those who are : at peace with themselves and the way 'of the : way'. : : in peace, : gar : : You're right, of course, there will always : be troubled minds. And there are so many : now, so much hatred and division, leading to : new generations of hatred and even more : division. An endless spiral down. Until : something changes, something changes the : dynamic. Something has happened to change : the dynamic. Have you read of the reactions : from all over the world to Obama's election? : The hope? Most people all over the world are : just like us, individuals wanting peace, : safety, love and laughter, enough to eat, : health, friends: a good life. Things have : gone so badly amok, the world is crying for : hope, desperate for change. Now there is : some hope. There is a new Possibility. And : it's being felt all over the world. This : creates the chance for real change to : happen...the openness creates it. : : Never stasis. Never total balance or total : peace. As long as the mind of man exists : cruelty and inhumanity exist, as well as : hope and love. But the one true thing is : nothing stays the same, all things change. : It's good to see the possibility that for : the first time in a very long time, the : change may be for the better, for all. : : How it seems from my pea patch, gar. : : josef : : Thank you Josef, i always look forward to reading your words. in peace, gar : : : :  Post a Response

Re: some answers from Lian Dao Posted by Lian Dao on 11/17/2008, 10:41 am, in reply to "Re: some answers from Lian Dao" 89.242.78.X --Previous Message-- : Steve, : : In answer to you first question, : unfortunately, no i am not Kerri. Or : Calliope. Or whoever is haunting Butch's : nightmares this particular evening. i do : however like the fact that Butch appears to : have lost his grip after a not very, hardly, : even non-heated debate, which is always : uncomfortable but guiltily enjoyable to : observe and make notes from for furtue : reference. : : In answer to your second query, well, i do : have nipples. Do they count? : : ------------------------ : : Thank you for that, Lian Dao. I'm much : relieved to learn you aren't a wizard from : that other place. Though I must confess I : was beginning to wonder why my teeth are : falling out and I can no longer urinate like : normal men. : : Btw, the mention of your nipples has aroused : the savage beast in josef. : : Don't ask me how I know. I just know. : : Ha ha ha ha. Yes Steve that is most amusing. i would like to say that your condition is probably due to old age but that may be construed as being 'contentious' and result in more upset. So i won't. As for my nipples they have now been covered by masking tape so as not to cause any more disquiet.  Post a Response

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