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"The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by gossamer on 11/11/2008, 12:53 pm 12.203.52.X I just received a copy of 'The Tao Te Ching', by Ralph Alan Dale. In verse 6, Dale transliterates: "The spirit of life never dies". The first part of this verse is almost always (in other English translations): "The valley spirit never dies". Now, I used to live in a large valley, and I can actually tell you that there is something spiritually 'different' in the land, in the spirit that IS the land, in a valley. One has to actually live in a valley, to truly understand this verse in the DDJ. A valley is "alive" in a sort of way that other landscapes are NOT. And consequently, Ralph Alan Dale mistranslated this verse. Just a thought or two. Peace, gossamer  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by Steve on 11/11/2008, 1:25 pm, in reply to ""The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 69.140.59.X : I just received a copy of 'The Tao Te Ching', : by Ralph Alan Dale. : : In verse 6, Dale transliterates: "The : spirit of life never dies". : : The first part of this verse is almost : always (in other English translations): : "The valley spirit never dies". : : Now, I used to live in a large valley, and I : can actually tell you that there is : something spiritually 'different' in the : land, in the spirit that IS the land, in a : valley. : : One has to actually live in a valley, to : truly understand this verse in the DDJ. : : A valley is "alive" in a sort of : way that other landscapes are NOT. : : And consequently, Ralph Alan Dale : mistranslated this verse. : : Just a thought or two. : : : Peace, gossamer --------------------------- I lived in an urban landscape for 26 years and observed nothing different there than I do here, in a rural landscape. The same principles at work. The same comings and goings. The same horrors and the same glories. Do you view chapter 6 as a commentary on the country/urban divide, gossamer?  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by gossamer on 11/11/2008, 2:12 pm, in reply to "Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 12.203.52.X Dear Steve, I think that I'm probably prejudiced in my answer to this question. I once lived for quite a few years in a place called "The River Valley". It was on the Southern section of The (Cherokee) Trail of Tears. There was literally a presence of "the valley spirit" there. Perhaps in a 'shamanic' sense. So, I guess the answer to your question is "Yes". Peace, gossamer --Previous Message-- : I just received a copy of 'The Tao Te : Ching', : by Ralph Alan Dale. : : In verse 6, Dale transliterates: "The : spirit of life never dies". : : The first part of this verse is almost : always (in other English translations): : "The valley spirit never dies". : : Now, I used to live in a large valley, and I : can actually tell you that there is : something spiritually 'different' in the : land, in the spirit that IS the land, in a : valley. : : One has to actually live in a valley, to : truly understand this verse in the DDJ. : : A valley is "alive" in a sort of : way that other landscapes are NOT. : : And consequently, Ralph Alan Dale : mistranslated this verse. : : Just a thought or two. : : : Peace, gossamer : : --------------------------- : : I lived in an urban landscape for 26 years : and observed nothing different there than I : do here, in a rural landscape. The same : principles at work. The same comings and : goings. The same horrors and the same : glories. : : Do you view chapter 6 as a commentary on the : country/urban divide, gossamer? : : : :  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by gar on 11/11/2008, 2:22 pm, in reply to ""The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 70.100.199.X --Previous Message-- : I just received a copy of 'The Tao Te Ching', : by Ralph Alan Dale. : : In verse 6, Dale transliterates: "The : spirit of life never dies". : : The first part of this verse is almost : always (in other English translations): : "The valley spirit never dies". : : Now, I used to live in a large valley, and I : can actually tell you that there is : something spiritually 'different' in the : land, in the spirit that IS the land, in a : valley. : : One has to actually live in a valley, to : truly understand this verse in the DDJ. : : A valley is "alive" in a sort of : way that other landscapes are NOT. : : And consequently, Ralph Alan Dale : mistranslated this verse. : : Just a thought or two. : : : Peace, gossamer : Greetings gossamer, It seems to me that the valley spirit relates to the properties of 'yin'. And the mountain is seen a 'yang'. It has been said, know yang, but stay to the yin. Living in a valley nourishes my sense of yin and embraces my nature. But, it was quite fun hiking up a mountain this morning. in peace, gar  Post a Response

A question for Steve Posted by gar on 11/11/2008, 2:31 pm, in reply to "Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 70.100.199.X Greetings Steve, How do you post a picture here? in peace, gar  Post a Response

a valley Posted by ying ren on 11/11/2008, 2:40 pm, in reply to "Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 85.181.2.X  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by Bao Pu on 11/11/2008, 2:40 pm, in reply to ""The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 99.255.167.X Hi Gossamer, I too believe he has mistranslated it. Why did you buy his translation? [ Happiness and Harmony,  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by Steve on 11/11/2008, 3:00 pm, in reply to "Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 69.140.59.X : It seems to me that the valley spirit : relates to the properties of 'yin'. And the : mountain is seen a 'yang'. : : It has been said, know yang, but stay to the : yin. : : Living in a valley nourishes my sense of yin : and embraces my nature. : : But, it was quite fun hiking up a mountain : this morning. : : in peace, : gar ------------------------ Yes. Fun, gar. The mountain rose up out of the valley, and will eventually fall away and return to its source. Returning to the source is stillness. The way of nature. *** The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return. They grow and flourish and then return to the source. Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature. ~~Laozi Chapter 16 (Feng/English)  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by gossamer on 11/11/2008, 3:43 pm, in reply to "Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 12.203.52.X Dear Bao Pu, I'm going to blame on a board member here. lol About two or three weeks ago, I asked someone here (either Steve or Butch, I think) which were their favorite translations of the DDJ, and Richard Alan Dale was one of those translators. So, I bought Dale's translation from Amazon.com, and it came yesterday. We've probably got 35 to 40 different DDJ translations now, but frankly, David Hinton's is my very favorite. I might call him 'a shamanic poet', Professor Hinton might not like that descriptor though...I'm not sure. But I DO love his 'Tao Te Ching'. Peace, gossamer --Previous Message-- : Hi Gossamer, : : I too believe he has mistranslated it. Why : did you buy his translation? : : : [ : Happiness and Harmony, : :  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by Steve on 11/11/2008, 4:05 pm, in reply to "Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 69.140.59.X : I'm going to blame on a board member here. : lol : : About two or three weeks ago, I asked : someone here (either Steve or Butch, I : think) which were their favorite : translations of the DDJ, and Richard Alan : Dale was one of those translators. ----------------- T'wasn't I, gossamer. Must have been Butch. (Even if it wasn't, let's blame him anyway. ;-)  Post a Response

an answer for gar Posted by Steve on 11/11/2008, 4:40 pm, in reply to "A question for Steve" 69.140.59.X : Greetings Steve, : : How do you post a picture here? : : in peace, : gar ------------------- This is how I do it, gar. (There might be an easier way; if so, maybe some kind soul will share it with us.) -Right click on the picture you want to import into your post. -Click on "Properties" in the drop-down box that appears, and copy the picture's address (URL). -Paste the URL into your post. Type "[img]" immediately before the URL and "[/img]" immediately after. Your post will look something like this: *** Here's a picture of Butch having dinner with the Unitive One: [img]http://blah blah blah[/img] *** You can also click on the "image" button at the bottom of the box you're typing your post in, but I like my method better.  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by gossamer on 11/11/2008, 4:47 pm, in reply to "Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 12.203.52.X Here's a post from over at Nina's DIO Forum. I thought that it might help explain my feelings about Laozi's "Valley Spirit". Dear Nina, I cross posted about this subject, both here, and at 'Tao Speaks'. I hope that that's OK. I used to live in a place called "The River Valley". It was at the Southern end of The (Cherokee's) Trail of Tears. I first learned about the Valley Spirit here, and how the Valley could (spiritually) 'absorb' water (which of course is very near to Dao) which flowed from hundreds of miles away, from the highest part of the Rockies. Now the water did not stop there, but it caused a community to develop there, and offered itself to agriculture, and in turn to education, as a college community. It was a very Yin place, but it was also a very old Native American place of power. And where the Eastern Band of Cherokees crossed by ferry into what was then 'Indian Territory'. A hunting ground for the Osage, a fertile Valley for agriculture since before the White man came.......a kind of 'womb', a kind of 'spiritual vagina'. There was a sense of the Eternal in this Valley, that matched EXACTLY to the words of Laozi's 'Valley Spirit'. I know that this may sound strange, but this place "befriended me" because I held it in Honor. I STILL DO. And I miss it greatly. It knew that that I held it as a Sacred Place, both in my heart, and in my mind. And it was in a reciprocal in relationship to me, almost like a Lover. I hope that you understand what I'm saying here, it's not the easiest thing to describe, or talk about, but the land knew that I Honored it as "The Valley Spirit". It Nourished me like a child, and like a Lover, in return. Who can speak about things so deep that they lack words in the English language? Peace, gossamer --Previous Message-- : I'm going to blame on a board member here. : lol : : About two or three weeks ago, I asked : someone here (either Steve or Butch, I : think) which were their favorite : translations of the DDJ, and Richard Alan : Dale was one of those translators. : : ----------------- : : T'wasn't I, gossamer. Must have been Butch. : : (Even if it wasn't, let's blame him anyway. : ;-) : :  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by Steve on 11/11/2008, 4:56 pm, in reply to "Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 69.140.59.X : Here's a post from over at Nina's DIO Forum. : : I thought that it might help explain my : feelings about Laozi's "Valley : Spirit". : : : Dear Nina, : : I cross posted about this subject, both : here, and at 'Tao Speaks'. : : I hope that that's OK. : : I used to live in a place called "The : River Valley". : : It was at the Southern end of The : (Cherokee's) Trail of Tears. : : I first learned about the Valley Spirit : here, and how the Valley could (spiritually) : 'absorb' water (which of course is very near : to Dao) which flowed from hundreds of miles : away, from the highest part of the Rockies. : : Now the water did not stop there, but it : caused a community to develop there, and : offered itself to agriculture, and in turn : to education, as a college community. : : It was a very Yin place, but it was also a : very old Native American place of power. : : And where the Eastern Band of Cherokees : crossed by ferry into what was then 'Indian : Territory'. : : A hunting ground for the Osage, a fertile : Valley for agriculture since before the : White man came.......a kind of 'womb', a : kind of 'spiritual vagina'. : : There was a sense of the Eternal in this : Valley, that matched EXACTLY to the words of : Laozi's 'Valley Spirit'. : : I know that this may sound strange, but this : place "befriended me" because I : held it in Honor. : : I STILL DO. And I miss it greatly. : : It knew that that I held it as a Sacred : Place, both in my heart, and in my mind. : : And it was in a reciprocal in relationship : to me, almost like a Lover. : : I hope that you understand what I'm saying : here, it's not the easiest thing to : describe, or talk about, but the land knew : that I Honored it as "The Valley : Spirit". : : It Nourished me like a child, and like a : Lover, in return. : : Who can speak about things so deep that they : lack words in the English language? : : : Peace, gossamer -------------------------- Thanks, gossamer. You give voice to your heart quite well.  Post a Response

Re: an answer for gar Posted by wulf on 11/12/2008, 1:52 am, in reply to "an answer for gar" 85.181.54.X hello gar this works only if the picture is online... if you want publish an picture -you have on your harddrive only- you have to upload it first.. my provider gives me space for this.. your provider too? having uploaded the picture you can use the method Steve has descripted... -- you can send me the picture - i can upload it for you - if you are interested i will give you the email adress  Post a Response

Re: an answer for gar Posted by gar on 11/12/2008, 5:38 am, in reply to "an answer for gar" 70.100.199.X Test in peace, gar --Previous Message-- : Greetings Steve, : : How do you post a picture here? : : in peace, : gar : : ------------------- : : This is how I do it, gar. (There might be : an easier way; if so, maybe some kind soul : will share it with us.) : : -Right click on the picture you want to : import into your post. : : -Click on "Properties" in the : drop-down box that appears, and copy the : picture's address (URL). : : -Paste the URL into your post. Type : "[img]" immediately before the URL : and "[/img]" immediately after. : : Your post will look something like this: : : *** : : Here's a picture of Butch having dinner with : the Unitive One: : : [img]http://blah blah blah[/img] : : *** : : You can also click on the "image" : button at the bottom of the box you're : typing your post in, but I like my method : better. : :  Post a Response

Is the Honeymoon Over the Valley? Posted by Butch on 11/12/2008, 7:12 am, in reply to "Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 162.39.190.X --Previous Message-- : Dear Bao Pu, : : I'm going to blame on a board member here. : lol : : About two or three weeks ago, I asked : someone here (either Steve or Butch, I : think) which were their favorite : translations of the DDJ, and Richard Alan : Dale was one of those translators. : : So, I bought Dale's translation from : Amazon.com, and it came yesterday. : : We've probably got 35 to 40 different DDJ : translations now, but frankly, David : Hinton's is my very favorite. : : I might call him 'a shamanic poet', : Professor Hinton might not like that : descriptor though...I'm not sure. : : But I DO love his 'Tao Te Ching'. : : Peace, gossamer : : : : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Hi Gossamer, : : I too believe he has mistranslated it. Why : did you buy his translation? : : : [ : Happiness and Harmony, : : : : Gossamer, I am the one that recommended Ralph Alan Dale's translation of the Tao Te Ching. I will not apologize. I think it is great. The good Doctor brings the holistic approach of one that has studied acupuncture for over thirty years and written numerous books on Chinese medicine to his translation. His book is in my opinion one of the finest 21st Century translations of the TTC out there... One reason I suppose there are so many translations is that though we are all the same we are all different. Bao Pu is a snob. But he is a nice snob. I am a bastard. But I am a bastard. Bastard or no bastard both "Spirit of Life" and "Valley Spirit" resonate with me. Life is life no matter where one finds it. "On the first part of the journey I was looking at all the life There were plants and birds and rocks and things There was sand and hills and rings The first thing I met was a fly with a buzz And the sky with no clouds The heat was hot and the ground was dry But the air was full of sound I've been to the desert on a horse with no name It felt good to be out of the rain In the desert you can remember your name cause there aint no one for to give you no pain La, la... After two days in the desert sun My skin began to turn red After three days in the desert fun I was looking at a river bed And the story it told Of a river that flowed Made me sad to think it was dead chorus After nine days I let the horse run free cause the desert had turned to sea There were plants and birds and rocks and things There was sand and hills and rings The ocean is a desert with its life underground And a perfect disguise above Under the cities lies a heart made of ground But the humans will give no love You see I've been to the desert On a horse with no name It felt good to be out of the rain In the desert you can remember your name cause there aint no one for to give you no pain La, la ...." America. Butch  Post a Response

Re: Is the Honeymoon Over the Valley? Posted by gossamer on 11/12/2008, 9:30 am, in reply to "Is the Honeymoon Over the Valley?" 173.20.8.X 'America', who I saw in 1974, or '75 in Memphis, Tennessee, told a great secret: "the desert is an ocean with it's life underground........." I know from living in New Mexico, that this is true. Peace, gossamer (who is wondering why you call yourself "a bastard"? Do you not know your daddy?) --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Dear Bao Pu, : : I'm going to blame on a board member here. : lol : : About two or three weeks ago, I asked : someone here (either Steve or Butch, I : think) which were their favorite : translations of the DDJ, and Richard Alan : Dale was one of those translators. : : So, I bought Dale's translation from : Amazon.com, and it came yesterday. : : We've probably got 35 to 40 different DDJ : translations now, but frankly, David : Hinton's is my very favorite. : : I might call him 'a shamanic poet', : Professor Hinton might not like that : descriptor though...I'm not sure. : : But I DO love his 'Tao Te Ching'. : : Peace, gossamer : : : : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Hi Gossamer, : : I too believe he has mistranslated it. Why : did you buy his translation? : : : [ : Happiness and Harmony, : : : : : Gossamer, : : I am the one that recommended Ralph Alan : Dale's translation of the Tao Te Ching. I : will not apologize. I think it is great. The : good Doctor brings the holistic approach of : one that has studied acupuncture for over : thirty years and written numerous books on : Chinese medicine to his translation. His : book is in my opinion one of the finest 21st : Century translations of the TTC out there... : One reason I suppose there are so many : translations is that though we are all the : same we are all different. : : Bao Pu is a snob. But he is a nice snob. I : am a bastard. But I am a bastard. : : Bastard or no bastard both "Spirit of : Life" and "Valley Spirit" : resonate with me. Life is life no matter : where one finds it. : : "On the first part of the journey : I was looking at all the life : There were plants and birds and rocks and : things : There was sand and hills and rings : The first thing I met was a fly with a buzz : And the sky with no clouds : The heat was hot and the ground was dry : But the air was full of sound : : I've been to the desert on a horse with no : name : It felt good to be out of the rain : In the desert you can remember your name : cause there aint no one for to give you no : pain : : La, la... : : After two days in the desert sun : My skin began to turn red : After three days in the desert fun : I was looking at a river bed : And the story it told : Of a river that flowed : Made me sad to think it was dead : : chorus : : After nine days I let the horse run free : cause the desert had turned to sea : There were plants and birds and rocks and : things : There was sand and hills and rings : The ocean is a desert with its life : underground : And a perfect disguise above : Under the cities lies a heart made of ground : But the humans will give no love : : You see I've been to the desert : On a horse with no name : It felt good to be out of the rain : In the desert you can remember your name : cause there aint no one for to give you no : pain : La, la ...." America. : : Butch :  Post a Response

a question for wulf Posted by Steve on 11/12/2008, 9:43 am, in reply to "Re: an answer for gar" 69.140.59.X Wulf, How do you scale down an online picture so that it doesn't require the viewer to scroll in order to see the entire image? (See gar's picture above.) Steve  Post a Response

Re: a question for wulf Posted by wulf on 11/12/2008, 10:28 am, in reply to "a question for wulf" 85.181.55.X --Previous Message-- : Wulf, : : How do you scale down an online picture so : that it doesn't require the viewer to scroll : in order to see the entire image? (See : gar's picture above.) Steve copy the url from "Eigenschaften" (=qualities in you popup menu ?) http://www.frontiernet.net/~melin_mike/P1010151.jpg open it in a new window - then you get the option- it is opened automatically in sceer-size - after a while you get at the right corner below the click for enlarging or diminishing ( thats for windows XP internet explorer) -- if you download it - you can reduce the size in a graphic-program  Post a Response

picture in reduced size Posted by wulf on 11/12/2008, 10:59 am, in reply to "Re: an answer for gar" 85.181.54.X in reduced size:  Post a Response

Re: picture in reduced size for Stephe Posted by wulf on 11/12/2008, 11:02 am, in reply to "picture in reduced size" 85.181.54.X --Previous Message-- : in reduced size: here is another method: use this tag img SRC="yyy.jpg" BORDER=0 height=522 width=700 begin with < end with >  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by Wayne L on 11/18/2008, 1:38 pm, in reply to ""The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 76.87.0.X The Valley Spirit The Spirit of the Valley, the Spirit of Life, the Holy Grail, the Christ being an empty vessel, valley, in which the Spirit of God dwells, the Spirit of Life, the Seed of all living things, the Single True Nature of the Universe, the Mystic Female. A perfect square has no corners, is all square, well rounded, to circumcise the Spirit, to make round, Circumspect. The Valley Spirit, the seed of all living things, the Spirit of God, the Single True Nature, Way, Spirit of the Universe, the Way, the Nature, the Spirit, of the Primordial Tao is Wu Chi------>O The Valley Spirit, Tao, the Single True Way, Spirit, Nature, of the Universe, of the Reality of Everything, TOE, the seed of all living things, the Mystic Female. Lord of the Ring, Keeper of the Holy Grail-->O  Post a Response

Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit" Posted by gossamer on 11/18/2008, 2:00 pm, in reply to "Re: "The Spirit of Life" vs. "The Valley Spirit"" 173.20.8.X Dear Wayne, Your a poet, and your words are ((((Beautiful)))). Peace, gossamer --Previous Message-- : The Valley Spirit : : : The Spirit of the Valley, the Spirit of : Life, the Holy Grail, the Christ being an : empty vessel, valley, in which the Spirit of : God dwells, the Spirit of Life, the Seed of : all living things, the Single True Nature of : the Universe, the Mystic Female. : : A perfect square has no corners, is all : square, well rounded, to circumcise the : Spirit, to make round, Circumspect. : : The Valley Spirit, the seed of all living : things, the Spirit of God, the Single True : Nature, Way, Spirit of the Universe, the : Way, the Nature, the Spirit, of the : Primordial Tao : is Wu Chi------>O : : : The Valley Spirit, Tao, the Single True Way, : Spirit, Nature, of the Universe, of the : Reality of Everything, TOE, the seed of all : living things, the Mystic Female. : : : Lord of the Ring, Keeper of the Holy : Grail-->O : :  Post a Response

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