Posted by Butch on 8/5/2008, 9:15 pm
75.88.46.X

Friends, The pineal gland is the physical location of the Ajna or Brow Chakra--or the "Third Eye" if you prefer. It is a small gland with the ability to detect electromagnetic enery, light. Its cells are similar to optic cells. It is located at the geometric center of the brain. It is a gateway between the physical and the metaphysical aspects of reality. It is active in children but atrophies in most adults. It can be reactivated, awakened. Though there are other means of activation most wisdom traditions recommend meditation. A few links, obviously you can do your own search if you would like to know more. http://www.personaltao.com/tao/question_taoism_Third_Eye.htm http://www.crystalinks.com/thirdeyepineal.html http://www.mudrashram.com/developinginnervision.html Butch

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Posted by gar on 8/6/2008, 5:00 am, in reply to ""Something Unexpected This Way Comes""
70.100.197.X

--Previous Message-- : Friends, : : The pineal gland is the physical location of : the Ajna or Brow Chakra--or the "Third : Eye" if you prefer. It is a small gland : with the ability to detect electromagnetic : enery, light. Its cells are similar to optic : cells. It is located at the geometric center : of the brain. It is a gateway between the : physical and the metaphysical aspects of : reality. It is active in children but : atrophies in most adults. It can be : reactivated, awakened. Though there are : other means of activation most wisdom : traditions recommend meditation. : : A few links, obviously you can do your own : search if you would like to know more. : : : http://www.personaltao.com/tao/question_taoism_Third_Eye.htm : : : http://www.crystalinks.com/thirdeyepineal.html : : : http://www.mudrashram.com/developinginnervision.html : : Butch : Greetings Butch, Thank you for these links on the third eye. Information like this allows one to continue on the path without feeling trapped in psychosis. in peace, gar

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Posted by Butch on 8/6/2008, 7:02 am, in reply to "Re: "Something Unexpected This Way Comes""
71.30.138.X

--Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : Friends, : : The pineal gland is the physical location of : the Ajna or Brow Chakra--or the "Third : Eye" if you prefer. It is a small gland : with the ability to detect electromagnetic : enery, light. Its cells are similar to optic : cells. It is located at the geometric center : of the brain. It is a gateway between the : physical and the metaphysical aspects of : reality. It is active in children but : atrophies in most adults. It can be : reactivated, awakened. Though there are : other means of activation most wisdom : traditions recommend meditation. : : A few links, obviously you can do your own : search if you would like to know more. : : : : http://www.personaltao.com/tao/question_taoism_Third_Eye.htm : : : : http://www.crystalinks.com/thirdeyepineal.html : : : : http://www.mudrashram.com/developinginnervision.html : : Butch : : Greetings Butch, : : Thank you for these links on the third eye. : : Information like this allows one to continue : on the path without feeling trapped in : psychosis. : : in peace, : gar : gar, In order to find one's no-mind one must first go out of one's mind. Intellectual activity cannot take one beyond the intellect. It is only when the conditioned mind is broken through that something unexpected this way comes. Waking up to a greater reality is not for the timid or feint of heart. Courage and tenacity are required. Love is our tether for it is the gravity of metaphysics... It is worth it! Butch

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Posted by Steve on 8/6/2008, 9:25 am, in reply to ""Something Unexpected This Way Comes""
69.140.59.X

Hi Butch, From one of the sites you linked to: "It is located in the geometric center of the brain. This correlates to the location of the Great Pyramid in the center of the physical planet." Ah... That explains it. *** You're an intelligent guy, Butch, and intelligent people ask questions. Question: Is it possible that this 'Third Eye' is not to be understood literally--but rather as an expression of the human urge to find rational explanations for what is sensed but unspeakable? Steve

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/6/2008, 3:12 pm, in reply to ""Something Unexpected This Way Comes""
149.254.192.X

i thought Taoists worked with the jing, qi and shen energies focusing on the various dan tien? Or are Hindu chakras all the rage now? And Egyptian pyramids? Are they like Martian pyramids? And if the Great Pyramid is the pineal gland of the planet than what's the Bermuda Triangle?

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Posted by Butch on 8/6/2008, 8:13 pm, in reply to "A Skeptic This Way Comes"
75.88.42.X

--Previous Message-- : Hi Butch, : : From one of the sites you linked to: : : "It is located in the geometric center : of the brain. This correlates to the : location of the Great Pyramid in the center : of the physical planet." : : Ah... : : That explains it. : : *** : : You're an intelligent guy, Butch, and : intelligent people ask questions. : : Question: : : Is it possible that this 'Third Eye' is not : to be understood literally--but rather as an : expression of the human urge to find : rational explanations for what is sensed but : unspeakable? : : Steve : : : : Steve, When looking through a window it often helps to raise the blinds and open the curtains. It also helps if it is a bright sunny day. Butch

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Posted by Butch on 8/6/2008, 8:50 pm, in reply to "Re: "Something confused This Way Comes""
75.88.42.X

--Previous Message-- : i thought Taoists worked with the jing, qi and : shen energies focusing on the various dan : tien? Or are Hindu chakras all the rage now? : And Egyptian pyramids? Are they like Martian : pyramids? And if the Great Pyramid is the : pineal gland of the planet than what's the : Bermuda Triangle? : Lian Dao, Confusion can be a sign of intelligence. The reality of the Universe is not independent of one's views. If you don't like your reality change your views. I take what resonates with me and let go of what doesn't. Butch

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Posted by Jody on 8/7/2008, 2:29 am, in reply to "Re: "Something confused This Way Comes""
70.0.124.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : i thought Taoists worked with the jing, qi : and : shen energies focusing on the various dan : tien? Or are Hindu chakras all the rage now? : And Egyptian pyramids? Are they like Martian : pyramids? And if the Great Pyramid is the : pineal gland of the planet than what's the : Bermuda Triangle? : : Lian Dao, : : Confusion can be a sign of intelligence. : : The reality of the Universe is not : independent of one's views. If you don't : like your reality change your views. : : I take what resonates with me and let go of : what doesn't. : : Butch :Good find Butch! I was up till 5 in the morn' readin' that the other night. Sure made me releived to see it in writing. Y do J?

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/7/2008, 3:54 am, in reply to "Re: "Something confused This Way Comes""
149.254.192.X

And, like good Taoists everywhere, i suppose that you are about to tell me that you could also be wrong?

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/7/2008, 4:14 am, in reply to ""Something Unexpected This Way Comes""
149.254.200.X

It would seem that cultivatees are being inundated with the promised plethora of material. physical attributes of sitting still just long enough, which considering the amount of cultivatees cultivating in the world, right now, still awaiting delivery of goods, it would also seem that in some, but not all cases, cultivation is doing more harm than good.

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Posted by Butch on 8/7/2008, 7:43 am, in reply to "not confused"
75.88.42.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : i thought Taoists worked with the jing, qi : and : shen energies focusing on the various dan : tien? Or are Hindu chakras all the rage now? : And Egyptian pyramids? Are they like Martian : pyramids? And if the Great Pyramid is the : pineal gland of the planet than what's the : Bermuda Triangle? : : Lian Dao, : : Confusion can be a sign of intelligence. : : The reality of the Universe is not : independent of one's views. If you don't : like your reality change your views. : : I take what resonates with me and let go of : what doesn't. : : Butch :Good find Butch! I was up till 5 in the morn' : readin' that the other night. Sure made me : releived to see it in writing. Y do J? : : Jody, You are welcome. It is one thing to be a skeptic, quite another to refuse to look. Butch

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Posted by Butch on 8/7/2008, 7:59 am, in reply to "confused is as good a place as any"
75.88.42.X

--Previous Message-- : And, like good Taoists everywhere, i suppose : that you are about to tell me that you could : also be wrong? : Lian Dao, What does being right or wrong have to do with it? I am not a scholar. I am a mystic. You must have me confused with Bao Pu or rat. Nor am I a Taoist. I am that I am. In this case, I am a Taoist sympathizer. Reality is a real metaphor. What I am pointing to is beyond right or wrong, beyond dualistic conception. I recommend the same way of bringing oneself into accord with the Way of the eternal Tao as does Lao Tzu and Dogen. Through the negation of negation until one realizes the great affirmation. Or back, if you prefer, to nondualistic awareness. Though back isn't really the "right" word either. Nonduality is timeless. I am not so sure we are growing, evolving, as we are remembering what we have been all along. We seem to have "Fallen" and most of us are having a hard time getting back up. Or if you prefer a different metaphor we appear to have fallen asleep mesmerized by our capacity to think in a way that seems rational when left to its own devices and most of us are having a hard time waking back up. Or if you prefer we must be born again. Same thing. No one can do it for us. Others can share what they see, but only we can look for ourselves. Isn't that great news. The Tao is open to everyone. Butch

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Posted by Steve on 8/7/2008, 9:01 am, in reply to "Confused is a good place to visit but I would not want to live there."
69.140.59.X

: What I am pointing to is beyond right or : wrong, beyond dualistic conception. I : recommend the same way of bringing oneself : into accord with the Way of the eternal Tao : as does Lao Tzu and Dogen. Through the : negation of negation until one realizes the : great affirmation. Or back, if you prefer, : to nondualistic awareness. -------------------- Your reading of the Laozi is as valid--or invalid--as mine, Butch, but I don't find 'negation' or an imperative to return to nondualistic awareness there. The 81 chapters are all about affirmation, not negation. About seeing what's there, not about what's hidden from view. I don't see in the writings a fundamental need to escape from, or return to, anything. It's a done deal. The war has been won. You're so heavily invested in meditating and cultivating, Butch, that you've found it necessary to create and maintain a problematic universe in order to support your desires and longings in that regard. (Cultivation trap #6, if you're interested.)

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/7/2008, 9:19 am, in reply to "Re: Confused is a good place to visit but I would not want to live there."
149.254.200.X

Steve, what is your, or indeed anyone elses, take on Chapter Sixteen of the Tao Teh Ching?

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Posted by Nina on 8/7/2008, 9:33 am, in reply to "the devil finds work for idle hands"
71.106.15.X

--Previous Message-- : It would seem that cultivatees are being : inundated with the promised plethora of : material. physical attributes of sitting : still just long enough, which considering : the amount of cultivatees cultivating in the : world, right now, still awaiting delivery of : goods, it would also seem that in some, but : not all cases, cultivation is doing more : harm than good. : I agree, Lian Dao. After many years of serious deliberation, I've come to the conclusion that all this is toys to play with in life. Choose your toy and have fun with it until it breaks? Whether it's looking to release the pineal gland, trying to find one's g-spot or a-spot, or writing a musical composition....... It's all just stuff to fill life - with more pleasure? I know lots of people who'll never "wake up" the way Butch thinks they should, but they'll live and walk right along side us. Some people find "enlightenment" on Oprah. :-) I think I'm getting your concept of Amitofo. I wonder if releasing the pineal gland would release a sensation of Amitofo? Probably not. Hmmmm...... Would Amitofo be comparable to symbiosis? -Nina

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Posted by Nina on 8/7/2008, 9:38 am, in reply to "return is the motion of the Tao"
71.106.15.X

--Previous Message-- : Steve, what is your, or indeed anyone elses, : take on Chapter Sixteen of the Tao Teh : Ching? : Donovan's lyrics just came to mind: Happiness runs in a circular motion Thought is like a little boat on the sea Everybody is a part of everything anyway You can have everything if you let yourself be. Why? Because Why? Because Why? Because -Nina

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/7/2008, 9:38 am, in reply to "Confused is a good place to visit but I would not want to live there."
149.254.200.X

Love is the Law, Love under Will. Aleister Crowley was a lot of things. The self-appointed greatest (then) living poet, drug addict, sexual predator, founder of Crowleyanity, mystical traveller, magical whore and just a plain, old-fashioned drunken bum. He did, however, leave us with this formula, which is, for me, the closest one of us moderns has got back to the source, ''The Tao is the sum total of the universe subtracted from itself''. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

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Posted by Butch on 8/7/2008, 9:40 am, in reply to "Re: Confused is a good place to visit but I would not want to live there."
75.88.42.X

--Previous Message-- : What I am pointing to is beyond right or : wrong, beyond dualistic conception. I : recommend the same way of bringing oneself : into accord with the Way of the eternal Tao : as does Lao Tzu and Dogen. Through the : negation of negation until one realizes the : great affirmation. Or back, if you prefer, : to nondualistic awareness. : : -------------------- : : Your reading of the Laozi is as valid--or : invalid--as mine, Butch, but I don't find : 'negation' or an imperative to return to : nondualistic awareness there. The 81 : chapters are all about affirmation, not : negation. About seeing what's there, not : about what's hidden from view. : : I don't see in the writings a fundamental : need to escape from, or return to, anything. : It's a done deal. The war has been won. : : You're so heavily invested in meditating and : cultivating, Butch, that you've found it : necessary to create and maintain a : problematic universe in order to support : your desires and longings in that regard. : : (Cultivation trap #6, if you're interested.) : : : Steve, The negation of the negation that leads to the Great Affirmation. Two minuses make a positive. Negative measures positive measures negative. Neither pole of a polarity stands alone. Each pole is a part of an underlying unity. A part of that which has no parts. Verse 1 of the Tao Te Ching makes the OldBoy's perspective clear. The Way that becomes a way is not the Immortal Way. The Way cannot be directly stated. Cannot be limited to words that are polarized--this or that. The Way must be experienced by oneself to be known. One can read about it all day long and not know for oneself what is being talked about. ... two different names for one and the same. The one we call dark. The dark beyond dark. The door to all beginnings. Light and Dark are but two different names for one and the same. The OldBoy recommends that we take the Dark way, the feminine way, the inside way. The meditative way. The way where light and dark, this and that, are negated for they are seen as one and the same. But the OldBoy does not stop there, at the negation of duality. No, the OldBoy goes on. On to even the negation of negation. To the Great Affirmation. To the door to all beginnings, to beginningless endlessness. By not relying on outside things, opinions, religion, science, and such, the adept relys on him or herself. The adept turns inward and finds the door that opens to the great beyond. It is a virtuous way. A wise way. A powerful way. The only way for it is the way that was given to each of us by existence. A way that cannot be given to us by any outside agency. A way that cannot be taken from us. It can only be given up. I choose not to give up. Because everything is known does not mean everything is determined. Butch

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/7/2008, 9:42 am, in reply to "Re: return is the motion of the Tao"
149.254.200.X

If i wish hard enough, Nina always appears. i much prefer Hawkwind to Donovan.

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/7/2008, 9:50 am, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
149.254.192.X

Amitofo! isn't a concept. There's nothing to be explained. And that's the whole concept behind it. You either do it or you don't do it. Isn't that what you just said?

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Posted by Nina on 8/7/2008, 10:02 am, in reply to "self power on this side, other power on that side and between the two an abyss"
71.106.15.X

--Previous Message-- : Amitofo! isn't a concept. There's nothing to : be explained. And that's the whole concept : behind it. You either do it or you don't do : it. Isn't that what you just said? : Sorry for calling it a concept. I'm still waking up this morning. Symbiosis can't be explained either. And it can't be forced. It's there or it isn't....... A friend of mine said: If it isn't symbiotic, it ain't rock 'n' roll. Symbiotically yours- Nina

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Posted by Nina on 8/7/2008, 10:05 am, in reply to "space ritual"
71.106.15.X

--Previous Message-- : If i wish hard enough, Nina always appears. i : much prefer Hawkwind to Donovan. : I felt you. :-) I just looked through some of Hawkwind's lyrics. I couldn't find any happiness or "letting go" there. As I was writing that, we just had a little tremor here. Constant motion....... also part of DDJ 16, yes? -Nina

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Posted by Steve on 8/7/2008, 10:08 am, in reply to "return is the motion of the Tao"
69.140.59.X

: Steve, what is your, or indeed anyone elses, : take on Chapter Sixteen of the Tao Teh : Ching? -------------------- Observe, through newborn eyes, how things work. Things shine, then fade, then shine again. Weep, then rejoice, then weep again. Move away, then return, then move away again. Observe the underlying stillness that permeates the universe. Observe the unchanging nature of things in the changing universe. Do this, and reap all manner of glory.

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Posted by Nina on 8/7/2008, 10:10 am, in reply to "Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
71.106.15.X

: Steve, : : The negation of the negation that leads to : the Great Affirmation. Two minuses make a : positive. : : Negative measures positive measures : negative. Neither pole of a polarity stands : alone. Each pole is a part of an underlying : unity. A part of that which has no parts. : : Verse 1 of the Tao Te Ching makes the : OldBoy's perspective clear. : : The Way that becomes a way is not the : Immortal Way. : : The Way cannot be directly stated. Cannot be : limited to words that are polarized--this or : that. The Way must be experienced by oneself : to be known. One can read about it all day : long and not know for oneself what is being : talked about. : : ... two different names for one and the : same. The one we call dark. The dark beyond : dark. The door to all beginnings. : : Light and Dark are but two different names : for one and the same. The OldBoy recommends : that we take the Dark way, the feminine way, : the inside way. The meditative way. The way : where light and dark, this and that, are : negated for they are seen as one and the : same. But the OldBoy does not stop there, at : the negation of duality. No, the OldBoy goes : on. On to even the negation of negation. To : the Great Affirmation. To the door to all : beginnings, to beginningless endlessness. : : By not relying on outside things, opinions, : religion, science, and such, the adept relys : on him or herself. The adept turns inward : and finds the door that opens to the great : beyond. It is a virtuous way. A wise way. A : powerful way. The only way for it is the way : that was given to each of us by existence. A : way that cannot be given to us by any : outside agency. A way that cannot be taken : from us. It can only be given up. I choose : not to give up. : : Because everything is known does not mean : everything is determined. : : Butch : Butch- I know lots of people who never went through the great negation...... and don't have a clue what negation and affirmation mean. I'm happy to say that most of the ones I hold closest to my heart are kind, giving individuals. Laozi also suggests we stop looking so deeply within ourselves that we lose sight of others. -Nina

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Posted by Steve on 8/7/2008, 10:32 am, in reply to "Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
69.140.59.X

: By not relying on outside things, opinions, : religion, science, and such, the adept relys : on him or herself. The adept turns inward : and finds the door that opens to the great : beyond. It is a virtuous way. A wise way. A : powerful way. The only way for it is the way : that was given to each of us by existence. A : way that cannot be given to us by any : outside agency. A way that cannot be taken : from us. It can only be given up. I choose : not to give up. : : Because everything is known does not mean : everything is determined. ------------------------- Are you doing the Cosmic Wink-Wink-Nod-Nod Dance there, Butch? If so, that's cool. I can dig it. Or do you truly believe there's an essential problem somewhere?

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Posted by Butch on 8/7/2008, 1:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
162.39.190.X

--Previous Message-- : : Steve, : : The negation of the negation that leads to : the Great Affirmation. Two minuses make a : positive. : : Negative measures positive measures : negative. Neither pole of a polarity stands : alone. Each pole is a part of an underlying : unity. A part of that which has no parts. : : Verse 1 of the Tao Te Ching makes the : OldBoy's perspective clear. : : The Way that becomes a way is not the : Immortal Way. : : The Way cannot be directly stated. Cannot be : limited to words that are polarized--this or : that. The Way must be experienced by oneself : to be known. One can read about it all day : long and not know for oneself what is being : talked about. : : ... two different names for one and the : same. The one we call dark. The dark beyond : dark. The door to all beginnings. : : Light and Dark are but two different names : for one and the same. The OldBoy recommends : that we take the Dark way, the feminine way, : the inside way. The meditative way. The way : where light and dark, this and that, are : negated for they are seen as one and the : same. But the OldBoy does not stop there, at : the negation of duality. No, the OldBoy goes : on. On to even the negation of negation. To : the Great Affirmation. To the door to all : beginnings, to beginningless endlessness. : : By not relying on outside things, opinions, : religion, science, and such, the adept relys : on him or herself. The adept turns inward : and finds the door that opens to the great : beyond. It is a virtuous way. A wise way. A : powerful way. The only way for it is the way : that was given to each of us by existence. A : way that cannot be given to us by any : outside agency. A way that cannot be taken : from us. It can only be given up. I choose : not to give up. : : Because everything is known does not mean : everything is determined. : : Butch : : : Butch- : : I know lots of people who never went through : the great negation...... and don't have a : clue what negation and affirmation mean. : : I'm happy to say that most of the ones I : hold closest to my heart are kind, giving : individuals. Laozi also suggests we stop : looking so deeply within ourselves that we : lose sight of others. : : -Nina : : : : Hey Nina, At first mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. Then mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers. Then mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers again. At first we see things as separate realities for we have fallen into dualistic thinking. Object/Subject polarity. Then we see that things are not separate by seeing the underlying unity of all things. That seemingly separate things are a polarity, one with the other. Yin turns into yang turns into yang. Absolute separation is an illusion. Then we see that things are things in their own right just as we are a thing in ours. That the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. All is not One. All is a unitive one-though even these words fall short they are closer than the numerical one of monism. Not one, not two, undivided. A quality rather than a quantity. Others are as real as we are. Taoism is not solipsistic. Others matter. But, there is a grain to reality that is the same for everyone. We can either go with that grain or we can fight it. Most are fighting the grain. Lao Tzu was about going with the grain. As was Chuang Tzu. The master butcher's knife was immortal. Butch

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Posted by Butch on 8/7/2008, 1:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
162.39.190.X

--Previous Message-- : By not relying on outside things, opinions, : religion, science, and such, the adept relys : on him or herself. The adept turns inward : and finds the door that opens to the great : beyond. It is a virtuous way. A wise way. A : powerful way. The only way for it is the way : that was given to each of us by existence. A : way that cannot be given to us by any : outside agency. A way that cannot be taken : from us. It can only be given up. I choose : not to give up. : : Because everything is known does not mean : everything is determined. : : ------------------------- : : Are you doing the Cosmic Wink-Wink-Nod-Nod : Dance there, Butch? : : If so, that's cool. I can dig it. : : Or do you truly believe there's an essential : problem somewhere? : : Steve, If you find yourself constantly needing to sharpen your knife you might try following the grain. Butch

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/7/2008, 2:30 pm, in reply to "Re: self power on this side, other power on that side and between the two an abyss"
149.254.192.X

Symbiosis is still a duality. And the yawning chasm between the two objects imprisoned in the symbiotic hells, is filled with grinding, hungry teeth.

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/7/2008, 2:41 pm, in reply to "Re: space ritual"
149.254.192.X

Certain groups, if you listen hard enough and play them backwards, award us with messages from the Devil and make us want to blow our brains out, when actually its just a bunch of words put to music for the sake of entertainment. Hawkwind just sound good. If anyone wants to recite their lyrics like a sutra then that's upto them. Personally, i don't.

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/7/2008, 3:01 pm, in reply to "Re: return is the motion of the Tao"
149.254.192.X

i likes it. But. Where would you place the Tao in there? In the changing or the unchanging?

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Posted by Nina on 8/7/2008, 3:36 pm, in reply to "mind the gap"
71.106.15.X

--Previous Message-- : Symbiosis is still a duality. And the yawning : chasm between the two objects imprisoned in : the symbiotic hells, is filled with : grinding, hungry teeth. : Symbiosis is a process in which two (or many) unite - being mutually beneficial. Think of your tree. Leaves fall to provide mulch on the earth for the retention of moisture so the tree can produce more leaves. Tree / earth / moisture - all symbiotically intertwined. If the scales tip where one of the elements becomes more greedy or overpowering (grinding, hungry teeth), then the whole symbiosis falls apart. Then it's no longer symbiotic.

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Posted by Nina on 8/7/2008, 3:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
71.106.15.X

I don't have a clue what you just said, Butch. But I think I got this one: : : At first mountains are mountains and rivers : are rivers. Then mountains are not mountains : and rivers are not rivers. Then mountains : are mountains and rivers are rivers again. : Mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. So what? I think those sayings were created to provide monks and old retired people with something to exercise their brains then go...... Oh! I've got it! -Peter Pan

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Posted by Butch on 8/7/2008, 5:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
162.39.190.X

--Previous Message-- : I don't have a clue what you just said, Butch. : : But I think I got this one: : : At first mountains are mountains and rivers : are rivers. Then mountains are not mountains : and rivers are not rivers. Then mountains : are mountains and rivers are rivers again. : : : Mountains are mountains and rivers are : rivers. So what? I think those sayings : were created to provide monks and old : retired people with something to exercise : their brains then go...... Oh! I've got : it! : : -Peter Pan : : : Nina, The mountains are mountains story is meant to illustrate the three levels or phases of realization. The concept of self and other, the concept of self/other, and beyond concepts to pure being as it is. Butch

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Posted by Nina on 8/7/2008, 6:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
71.106.15.X

: Nina, : : The mountains are mountains story is meant : to illustrate the three levels or phases of : realization. The concept of self and other, : the concept of self/other, and beyond : concepts to pure being as it is. : : Butch : Yes, I know, Butch. All I'm saying is some people just get on with living. As Lian Dao has said before, those who get caught up in those concepts seem to be the most likely to criticize others for not "being awake". Maybe if you eat more guacamole you won't be wondering if it's "pure being". Just a thought. :-) -Nina

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Posted by Nina on 8/7/2008, 6:14 pm, in reply to "urban guerilla"
71.106.15.X

--Previous Message-- : Certain groups, if you listen hard enough and : play them backwards, award us with messages : from the Devil and make us want to blow our : brains out, when actually its just a bunch : of words put to music for the sake of : entertainment. Hawkwind just sound good. If : anyone wants to recite their lyrics like a : sutra then that's upto them. Personally, i : don't. : Okay, I listened to Urban Guerilla...... and it does Rock! I couldn't make out the words, which is probably best. But...... I do like lyrics. "Highway To Hell" (AC/DC) is a great example of a rockin' song with rockin' lyrics. No one has to recite the lyrics as a sutra, but they can put a smile on your face. I like to smile. You make me smile. -Nina

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Posted by Butch on 8/7/2008, 9:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
162.39.190.X

--Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : The mountains are mountains story is meant : to illustrate the three levels or phases of : realization. The concept of self and other, : the concept of self/other, and beyond : concepts to pure being as it is. : : Butch : : : Yes, I know, Butch. : : All I'm saying is some people just get on : with living. As Lian Dao has said before, : those who get caught up in those concepts : seem to be the most likely to criticize : others for not "being awake". : : Maybe if you eat more guacamole you won't be : wondering if it's "pure being". : Just a thought. :-) : : -Nina : : Nina, I have not criticized anyone for not being awake. All I have done is state that most people are caught up in their conditioned mind, their ego. I am not the first person to say as much. Nor am I saying that I don't get caught up in mine from time to time. I am an adept, not a sage. To begin meditating is the first step in a journey of a thousand miles. Though realization or enlightenment can seemingly take place in an instant, maturity takes a lifetime. At least for me. Though I will admit that at times I tease I am not the one that attacks people here. I defend myself at times, but only when I feel it necessary. In silence there is sometimes consent. So sometimes I speak only to be clear about where I am coming from. Everytime I bring up meditation Steve attacks me. I used to take it personally but have grown to realize Steve isn't attacking me personally. He is simply defending his way of life. A way that I find hedonistic, but, that is his right. I do not think that either Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu were hedonists. Life is bittersweet. In my opinion those that are constantly seeking bliss will never find what they are looking for, rat included. Bliss is a by-product and not a goal. In a twisted sort of logic some state over and over again that everything is perfect just as it is. That there is nothing that needs to be done to realize happiness. This is a monist view. That is if everything is numerically one then it is all a wash. Everything is equal. It doesn't matter what we do or don't do, so why do anything. Such thinking would translate wu-wei as doing nothing. Again, this is incorrect. Wu-wei means right-action, not inaction. It means doing something because it is in harmony with the way of the Way. Wu-wei means not having cross-purposes. Wu-wei means being in harmony with the whole. When awareness is stuck in the conditioned thinking of the ego it is disconnected from reality. Such dualistic thinking is a dream world. A Matrix of one's own design. A dream world of separation. Thus meditation starts in the rational mind. We start from where we are. But meditation ends in pure awareness. That is if a person sticks with it. You and others suggest that I want everyone to be awake. The implication being that I have some sort of problem for wanting this. You are right, I do want or wish that everyone were awake. Out of the control of their conditioning and free to be themselves according to their original nature. I will not apologize for this. I would also argue that a better question would be why would anyone be against everyone waking up. Is it because misery loves company. And yes, I do make value judgements. As does everyone. Personal freedom without personal responsibility is the way of thieves and liars, not sages. As an adept I am somewhere between. As are most of us. Adept or not adept. I love guacamole. Butch

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Posted by Nina on 8/8/2008, 12:08 am, in reply to "Re: Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
71.106.25.X

: Nina, : : I have not criticized anyone for not being : awake. All I have done is state that most : people are caught up in their conditioned : mind, their ego. I am not the first person : to say as much. Nor am I saying that I don't : get caught up in mine from time to time. I : am an adept, not a sage. : : To begin meditating is the first step in a : journey of a thousand miles. Though : realization or enlightenment can seemingly : take place in an instant, maturity takes a : lifetime. At least for me. : : Though I will admit that at times I tease I : am not the one that attacks people here. I : defend myself at times, but only when I feel : it necessary. In silence there is sometimes : consent. So sometimes I speak only to be : clear about where I am coming from. : Everytime I bring up meditation Steve : attacks me. I used to take it personally but : have grown to realize Steve isn't attacking : me personally. He is simply defending his : way of life. A way that I find hedonistic, : but, that is his right. I do not think that : either Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu were hedonists. : Life is bittersweet. In my opinion those : that are constantly seeking bliss will never : find what they are looking for, rat : included. Bliss is a by-product and not a : goal. : : In a twisted sort of logic some state over : and over again that everything is perfect : just as it is. That there is nothing that : needs to be done to realize happiness. This : is a monist view. That is if everything is : numerically one then it is all a wash. : Everything is equal. It doesn't matter what : we do or don't do, so why do anything. Such : thinking would translate wu-wei as doing : nothing. Again, this is incorrect. Wu-wei : means right-action, not inaction. It means : doing something because it is in harmony : with the way of the Way. Wu-wei means not : having cross-purposes. Wu-wei means being in : harmony with the whole. : : When awareness is stuck in the conditioned : thinking of the ego it is disconnected from : reality. Such dualistic thinking is a dream : world. A Matrix of one's own design. A dream : world of separation. Thus meditation starts : in the rational mind. We start from where we : are. But meditation ends in pure awareness. : That is if a person sticks with it. : : You and others suggest that I want everyone : to be awake. The implication being that I : have some sort of problem for wanting this. : You are right, I do want or wish that : everyone were awake. Out of the control of : their conditioning and free to be themselves : according to their original nature. I will : not apologize for this. I would also argue : that a better question would be why would : anyone be against everyone waking up. Is it : because misery loves company. And yes, I do : make value judgements. As does everyone. : : Personal freedom without personal : responsibility is the way of thieves and : liars, not sages. As an adept I am somewhere : between. As are most of us. Adept or not : adept. : : I love guacamole. : : Butch : I hear you, Butch. I wasn't saying you were intentionally being mean to anyone. It's just that sometimes when we get stuck on one way of seeing things we can inadvertently pooh-pooh other people's methods. And how can we know if maybe our methods wouldn't be right for them and vice versa? You spoke about being in harmony with the whole. It seems to me that since De gave each thing its own ability to be part of that whole, how could you know for sure that meditation would be beneficial to each thing/person? I had a boyfriend who meditated all the time (for 35 years) and took yoga, but he still ended up being a drunk who beat me up. I know other people who never meditated a day in their lives and are very sweet, kind and aware. There's all different types of people in this world. That's why I try to use the word "I" when I speak about this stuff instead of "we". If you unilaterally include everyone in the methods you find work for you, then you'll always be disappointed in how others live their lives. IMO But I could be wrong. Just some late night thoughts. Enjoy the guacamole! :-P -Nina

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Posted by Butch on 8/8/2008, 7:05 am, in reply to "reality is a mirror"
166.102.180.X

--Previous Message-- : Love is the Law, Love under Will. Aleister : Crowley was a lot of things. The : self-appointed greatest (then) living poet, : drug addict, sexual predator, founder of : Crowleyanity, mystical traveller, magical : whore and just a plain, old-fashioned : drunken bum. He did, however, leave us with : this formula, which is, for me, the closest : one of us moderns has got back to the : source, ''The Tao is the sum total of the : universe subtracted from itself''. Do what : thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. : Lian Dao, Monist drivel. All is not numerically one. The sum total minus itself is gibberish. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Beyond math. Rationalism substracted from itself might add up to all things being equal but Crowley's formula was just a pretext for his licentious and hedonistic lifestyle. He was not a rebel. He was an Egoist. With that said, I don't think he should have been drawn and quartered. But I don't think any more of a big deal should be made of him than he made of his 5 hour old sister Grace's death. Complete disinterest. By the way, there is no mirror. "Fundamentally there is no Bodhi tree, Nor the stand of a mirror bright, Since all is originally empty, Where can the dust alight?" Hui-Neng Butch

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Posted by Butch on 8/8/2008, 7:20 am, in reply to "the devil finds work for idle hands"
166.102.180.X

--Previous Message-- : It would seem that cultivatees are being : inundated with the promised plethora of : material. physical attributes of sitting : still just long enough, which considering : the amount of cultivatees cultivating in the : world, right now, still awaiting delivery of : goods, it would also seem that in some, but : not all cases, cultivation is doing more : harm than good. : Lian Dao, Go wash your mouth out with soap, now. How many terrorists of every ilk regularly meditate? I venture to say very, very, very few. Meditators are by choice pacifist. The last thing a meditator wants to do is involve him or herself in any kind of an ego contest. Of course it sometimes happens, no one is perfect in their understanding and maturity. But for the most part a meditator would rather everyone get along. Can a system of cultivation be overdone, of course. But meditation is not so much about any one system as it is about getting alone with oneself so as to become acquainted with oneself. The non-meditator rarely knows him or herself for he or she is focused on outside influences. The conditioned sense of self is a false-self. The meditator is interested in knowing his or her original nature, before the conditioning. Take the red pill, meditate. Follow your breath. Not mine, not Steve's, not Nina's.... yours. Trust yourself. Existence has given you everything you need to be all that you can be. No wizard can give us anything we don't already have. And no one can take anything eternal away from us without our consent. Butch

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Posted by Wayne L on 8/8/2008, 7:24 am, in reply to "Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
128.241.108.X

--Previous Message-- The door to all beginnings. the feminine way, To the door to all beginnings, to beginningless endlessness. : : By not relying on outside things, the adept relys on him or herself. The adept turns inward : and finds the door that opens to the great : beyond. A wise way. A powerful way. There are Ways but the Way is not One. Reason coupled with a sense of Reality, common sense is the Way. No Doubt that Femininity is Man’s Helpmate, but Monism, Monergism, Tao, Reason alone will not allow you to enter the Gate-way to Shambalha, Shangri-La. Masculinity is a metaphor for those things born of the dust of the ground, materiality, Evolution, things bound to the Chaos of Mother Nature, Cause and effect, determinism, the outside World. Femininity is a metaphor for the non-masculine, things not born of the dust of the ground, the out side, is a metaphor for the the non-material, things born of the Air, Heaven, Spiritual Things, things not bound to the Earth, the Chaos of Mother Nature, the Material World of Reality, Cause and Effect, Determinism. Femininity, is not fixed, is ever-changing, ambiguous, not straight forward, is wise, sly, devious, guileful, devilish, the mysterious, the Great Femininity, is a Free Spirit. Monism, Monergism, one or the other alone, inside or outside, masculinity or femininity, is not the Gate-Way to Shangri-La, Shambahla. Masculinity and Femininity (metaphorically speaking mind you) are the Two that are of the same source, the two being One allows Man. as a species, to be continuous; A continuum being a Singularity of two, central to which there is a third element of Time, a continuum being everlasting, Eternal. There are Ways but the Way is not One. Reason coupled with a sense of Reality is the Gate-way to Shambahla, Shangri-La. Reason alone, without a sense of Reality, monism, Monergism, is a sham, the Gate-way of Shame, is shamanism, is shameful, is a shamble. As a Help-Mate, the inside, the non-material, the Spiritual, the non-Masculine, the mysterious female, Reason coupled with a Sense of Reality, Masculinity, common sense, is Man’s Salvation, Savior. The two put asunder, One or the other alone is not the way. Reason, Femininity, Spirituality, alone, Monism, Monergism, is the cause of the down fall of Man, Materiality, Masculinity, Machismo, alone causing man to be little more than an animal, a Beast.

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Posted by Butch on 8/8/2008, 7:37 am, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
166.102.180.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : It would seem that cultivatees are being : inundated with the promised plethora of : material. physical attributes of sitting : still just long enough, which considering : the amount of cultivatees cultivating in the : world, right now, still awaiting delivery of : goods, it would also seem that in some, but : not all cases, cultivation is doing more : harm than good. : : : I agree, Lian Dao. : : After many years of serious deliberation, : I've come to the conclusion that all this is : toys to play with in life. Choose your toy : and have fun with it until it breaks? : : Whether it's looking to release the pineal : gland, trying to find one's g-spot or : a-spot, or writing a musical : composition....... It's all just stuff to : fill life - with more pleasure? : : I know lots of people who'll never : "wake up" the way Butch thinks : they should, but they'll live and walk right : along side us. Some people find : "enlightenment" on Oprah. :-) : : I think I'm getting your concept of Amitofo. : I wonder if releasing the pineal gland : would release a sensation of Amitofo? : Probably not. : : Hmmmm...... Would Amitofo be comparable to : symbiosis? : : -Nina : : : Nina, We are not playing the same type of games. You are playing finite games. Games you plan on playing until you either get bored with them, break their toy, or find new ones to get lost in if only for a while. No thanks. I am more interested in infinite games. Games that never end, check that. Games that are beginningless and endless. Timeless. Tao Games, not tao games. The Dance isn't about the dancer but the Dance. Dance like no one is looking, including yourself. Clearly you are a Taoist in your head only, so far. It is time for you to take the first step in the dance of existence. Sit your pretty butt down and follow your breath until you come to your original self. Your self that is not a self, the Self of existence. Then the Tao Games begin. And you will never grow bored with them. I promise. Take the red pill. If you think I am messing with your head I am not. You mess with your head far better than I could ever do. I am messing with your mystic heart. Take heart and sit down and listen to your Self. Or you can do it while dancing. The point is the Nina I have grown to know here is not Nina, not the original Nina. I would love to come to know her. But first she will have to come to know her Self. There is worldly love, then there is tough love. I tough love you. Butch

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Posted by Wayne L on 8/8/2008, 7:39 am, in reply to "Re: reality is a mirror"
128.241.108.X

--Previous Message-- : By the way, there is no mirror. : Butch True but only for those, whose Reality is nothing more than a mere reflection of Reality, that live in the World of Illusion.

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Posted by Nina on 8/8/2008, 9:50 am, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
71.105.66.X

: Nina, : : We are not playing the same type of games. : You are playing finite games. Games you plan : on playing until you either get bored with : them, break their toy, or find new ones to : get lost in if only for a while. No thanks. : : I am more interested in infinite games. : Games that never end, check that. Games that : are beginningless and endless. Timeless. Tao : Games, not tao games. : : The Dance isn't about the dancer but the : Dance. Dance like no one is looking, : including yourself. : : Clearly you are a Taoist in your head only, : so far. It is time for you to take the first : step in the dance of existence. Sit your : pretty butt down and follow your breath : until you come to your original self. Your : self that is not a self, the Self of : existence. Then the Tao Games begin. And you : will never grow bored with them. I promise. : Take the red pill. : : If you think I am messing with your head I : am not. You mess with your head far better : than I could ever do. I am messing with your : mystic heart. Take heart and sit down and : listen to your Self. Or you can do it while : dancing. The point is the Nina I have grown : to know here is not Nina, not the original : Nina. I would love to come to know her. But : first she will have to come to know her : Self. There is worldly love, then there is : tough love. I tough love you. : : Butch : You just made a lot of assumptions about me, Butch. I started meditating when I was a child - that was forced on me by being left alone a lot. I didn't know I was meditating at the time, but spending hours alone staring into space? I started guided meditation when I was a teenager. Many types. Centering on the breath, focusing on candle flames, chanting, sitting in full lotus, etc. I still spend most of my time alone and lots of time meditating - although my methods are a bit less traditional now. I won't bore you with stories of my various experiences. So....... The Nina you find here is Nina. Maybe you just wish there was another Nina? One more to your liking? :-) One of the benefits I've gotten from meditation is being able to accept the fact that meditation is not a panacea, and it's not meant for everyone. Some people can actually be hurt by meditating. Just because you've found a path that works for you doesn't mean it'd work for everyone, and it's a bit arrogant to tell everyone they have to do life the way you do, isn't it? I always dance like no one is looking. Sometimes they like what they see and sometimes they don't. Enjoy your dance! -Nina

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Posted by Steve on 8/8/2008, 9:55 am, in reply to "Re: Though men go mad in herds, they regain their senses one at a time."
69.140.59.X

: I used to take it personally but : have grown to realize Steve isn't attacking : me personally. He is simply defending his : way of life. A way that I find hedonistic, : but, that is his right. I do not think that : either Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu were hedonists. : Life is bittersweet. In my opinion those : that are constantly seeking bliss will never : find what they are looking for, rat : included. Bliss is a by-product and not a : goal. ---------------------- Hi Butch, First, I consider you a friend and good sport. As we've chased each other across the forums over the years, this view of you has not changed. That you speak your speak--and stick to it--is admirable imo. I respect that in people. Most folks don't know what the hell they think or believe, which becomes painfully obvious as soon as they open their mouths. Second, I consider you a theist who has abandoned belief in the Baby Jesus and replaced it with an abiding faith and confidence in the Baby Meditation. My sense is that you've made meditation the goal--as opposed to a vehicle, a method, for reaching a goal. That you consider non-meditators 'hedonists' merely suggests how very very possessive you are of your Blessed Child. Steve

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Posted by Steve on 8/8/2008, 10:10 am, in reply to "Re: return is the motion of the Tao"
69.140.59.X

: Where would you place the Tao in there? In the : changing or the unchanging? -------------- Where could I look where it would not be? (Is it different for Buddhists?)

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/8/2008, 3:47 pm, in reply to "Re: reality is a mirror"
149.254.192.X

Butch, i couldn't have dared to put it better myself. 'The foolish reject what they see, not what they think. The wise reject what they think, not what they see' ~ Hui-neng

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Posted by Butch on 8/8/2008, 9:40 pm, in reply to "Baby Jesus / Baby Meditation"
75.88.42.X

--Previous Message-- : I used to take it personally but : have grown to realize Steve isn't attacking : me personally. He is simply defending his : way of life. A way that I find hedonistic, : but, that is his right. I do not think that : either Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu were hedonists. : Life is bittersweet. In my opinion those : that are constantly seeking bliss will never : find what they are looking for, rat : included. Bliss is a by-product and not a : goal. : : ---------------------- : : Hi Butch, : : First, I consider you a friend and good : sport. As we've chased each other across : the forums over the years, this view of you : has not changed. That you speak your : speak--and stick to it--is admirable imo. I : respect that in people. Most folks don't : know what the hell they think or believe, : which becomes painfully obvious as soon as : they open their mouths. : : Second, I consider you a theist who has : abandoned belief in the Baby Jesus and : replaced it with an abiding faith and : confidence in the Baby Meditation. My sense : is that you've made meditation the goal--as : opposed to a vehicle, a method, for reaching : a goal. : : That you consider non-meditators 'hedonists' : merely suggests how very very possessive you : are of your Blessed Child. : : Steve : : Steve, I started this thread with you in mind. "Something Unexpected This Way Comes". You mentioned that you were a big "Twilight Zone" fan growing up. For me the charm of the show was the unexpected. Sometimes it was a bit scary, sometimes almost silly. But almost always interesting. So I thought maybe we could stir up something unexpected if we put our collective might to it. I guess I should have been more clear. Sometimes I project onto others my own sensibilities. But so far it seems most of us have pretty much said the same old same 'o. Myself included. We all seem to have our agendas. Mine is getting out of the rat race, getting out of the outside conditioning that is so much a part of our lives. There are many ways of doing this. I suggest that meditation is the master key. Not the only key, just the master one. As such I don't have much to say about other ways of coming into accord with the way of the Tao. I leave that to others. On another note, I have not thrown out the Baby Jesus with the religious bathwater. I have no problem with Jesus. The religions that call him Lord are another matter. They are all too human at times. But how many hospitals are there in your town that are not affiliated in some way to either the Christian or Judaic religions? There are all kinds of Christians just as there are all kinds of followers of every faith tradition. I guess what I am saying is that it is almost always a mistake to stereotype a person. And yet we seem to do it far to often. Myself included. That person is a Christian so everything that is wrong with every Christian is wrong with him or her. That person is a Communist so they must be evil. That person is a Capitalist so they too must be evil. That person cultivates, that person doesn't, and so on and so forth. We are a bunch of hypocrits. I know I am. With that said, I still recommend meditation for what ails a person. Not mental tranquilization, but awareness meditation. They are not the same thing. I am not saying a person should quit thinking. I am saying a person should come to realize they are not their thoughts. It has been my experience that most people think they are their thoughts. And, as a result, are overly attached to their thoughts. Yes, I become attached to some of my thinking at times as well. Do as I say, not as I do. Butch

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Posted by Butch on 8/8/2008, 9:47 pm, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
75.88.42.X

--Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : We are not playing the same type of games. : You are playing finite games. Games you plan : on playing until you either get bored with : them, break their toy, or find new ones to : get lost in if only for a while. No thanks. : : I am more interested in infinite games. : Games that never end, check that. Games that : are beginningless and endless. Timeless. Tao : Games, not tao games. : : The Dance isn't about the dancer but the : Dance. Dance like no one is looking, : including yourself. : : Clearly you are a Taoist in your head only, : so far. It is time for you to take the first : step in the dance of existence. Sit your : pretty butt down and follow your breath : until you come to your original self. Your : self that is not a self, the Self of : existence. Then the Tao Games begin. And you : will never grow bored with them. I promise. : Take the red pill. : : If you think I am messing with your head I : am not. You mess with your head far better : than I could ever do. I am messing with your : mystic heart. Take heart and sit down and : listen to your Self. Or you can do it while : dancing. The point is the Nina I have grown : to know here is not Nina, not the original : Nina. I would love to come to know her. But : first she will have to come to know her : Self. There is worldly love, then there is : tough love. I tough love you. : : Butch : : : You just made a lot of assumptions about me, : Butch. : : I started meditating when I was a child - : that was forced on me by being left alone a : lot. I didn't know I was meditating at the : time, but spending hours alone staring into : space? : : I started guided meditation when I was a : teenager. Many types. Centering on the : breath, focusing on candle flames, chanting, : sitting in full lotus, etc. I still spend : most of my time alone and lots of time : meditating - although my methods are a bit : less traditional now. I won't bore you with : stories of my various experiences. : : So....... The Nina you find here is Nina. : Maybe you just wish there was another Nina? : One more to your liking? :-) : : One of the benefits I've gotten from : meditation is being able to accept the fact : that meditation is not a panacea, and it's : not meant for everyone. Some people can : actually be hurt by meditating. Just : because you've found a path that works for : you doesn't mean it'd work for everyone, and : it's a bit arrogant to tell everyone they : have to do life the way you do, isn't it? : : I always dance like no one is looking. : Sometimes they like what they see and : sometimes they don't. : : Enjoy your dance! : -Nina : : Nina, In the spirit of something unexpected this way comes I have been trying to press some of your buttons to see what kind of a reaction I would get. In the past you would have slapped my face and not talked to me for 47 days. But who's counting? Dance away Nina, Dance away. But not far away. Butch

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Posted by Jody on 8/9/2008, 2:43 am, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
99.204.13.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : It would seem that cultivatees are being : inundated with the promised plethora of : material. physical attributes of sitting : still just long enough, which considering : the amount of cultivatees cultivating in the : world, right now, still awaiting delivery of : goods, it would also seem that in some, but : not all cases, cultivation is doing more : harm than good. : : : : Lian Dao, : : Go wash your mouth out with soap, now. : : How many terrorists of every ilk regularly : meditate? I venture to say very, very, very : few. : : Meditators are by choice pacifist. The last : thing a meditator wants to do is involve him : or herself in any kind of an ego contest. Of : course it sometimes happens, no one is : perfect in their understanding and maturity. : But for the most part a meditator would : rather everyone get along. : : Can a system of cultivation be overdone, of : course. But meditation is not so much about : any one system as it is about getting alone : with oneself so as to become acquainted with : oneself. The non-meditator rarely knows him : or herself for he or she is focused on : outside influences. The conditioned sense of : self is a false-self. The meditator is : interested in knowing his or her original : nature, before the conditioning. : : Take the red pill, meditate. Follow your : breath. Not mine, not Steve's, not : Nina's.... yours. Trust yourself. Existence : has given you everything you need to be all : that you can be. No wizard can give us : anything we don't already have. And no one : can take anything eternal away from us : without our consent. : : Butch : If you google image "the buddhabrot technique" there are pictures of the third eye that look like old buddhist pictures, realy amazing! I don't know how it was done yet but it reminds me of Karilion photography (russian guy) took photos of electricity.

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Posted by Butch on 8/9/2008, 8:58 am, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
75.88.44.X

: Butch : : If you google image "the buddhabrot : technique" there are pictures of the : third eye that look like old buddhist : pictures, realy amazing! I don't know how it : was done yet but it reminds me of Karilion : photography (russian guy) took photos of : electricity. : JodyydoJ, Great stuff. Thanks for the turn on. To see a Buddhabrot click on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ej3dj4x64k ButchhctuB

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/9/2008, 10:03 am, in reply to "Re: return is the motion of the Tao"
149.254.200.X

Due to the unchanging emptiness of 'the Tao', we are able to discern the changing form of 'the Tao'. So, by way of an answer, yes and no.

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/9/2008, 10:12 am, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
149.254.200.X

First up Butch, i'm a Buddhist not a pacifist and secondly, there is every possibility that if we don't ground our practice then we could become wizards or consider the rural to be better than the urban or become either a nihilist or an eternalist. Such things are infinitely worse, imo, than becoming a terrorist *stroke* freedom fighter.

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/9/2008, 10:27 am, in reply to "Re: mind the gap"
149.254.200.X

You are so far entrapped in your symbiotic hell that you think a tree practices the fine art of symbiosis like a fly fighting for its life in a spiders web. You would be truer to your own art if you stopped struggling and allowed the symbiotic spider to eat you alive. How is the fig tree and have you been dancing this weekend?

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Posted by Nina on 8/9/2008, 10:50 am, in reply to "watch your step"
71.105.72.X

--Previous Message-- : You are so far entrapped in your symbiotic : hell that you think a tree practices the : fine art of symbiosis like a fly fighting : for its life in a spiders web. You would be : truer to your own art if you stopped : struggling and allowed the symbiotic spider : to eat you alive. How is the fig tree and : have you been dancing this weekend? : That's a funny coincidence. I just rescued a spider from my tub before showering this morning. He's prancing through the garden now. I doubt he'll come back and eat me. Maybe the true hell is struggling to create symbiosis where there is none? The fig tree? I went out the next morning and it was gone. I don't think it walked away :-) so maybe it found a new patch of earth in a loving home. I'm usually dancing. Sometimes I turn up my boom box and just lay on the couch and let my legs dance in the air. Have you been riding your bike?

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Posted by Jody on 8/9/2008, 10:53 am, in reply to "Supercalifractalishius!"
70.6.18.X

--Previous Message-- : Butch : : If you google image "the buddhabrot : technique" there are pictures of the : third eye that look like old buddhist : pictures, realy amazing! I don't know how it : was done yet but it reminds me of Karilion : photography (russian guy) took photos of : electricity. : : : JodyydoJ, : : Great stuff. Thanks for the turn on. : : To see a Buddhabrot click on: : : : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ej3dj4x64k : : ButchhctuB : :I had met a real witch from fallriver mass. as soon as I made a profile on "TAGGED" (out of a million people all over the world)not someone who just likes books n pictures, anywho, she wrote that my mother told her to treat me good and I beleive her, I had a girlfriend in Boston (very powerful soul) and she saw her, I know it was real. Alot of lonely lost souls and very creative "ones?" in this electric conecter. It amazizs me how much the computer coralates with spirtuality, even sending signiles to a copier to manifest in the "flesh" TAG your it! Oh Jody! :

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Posted by Nina on 8/9/2008, 10:55 am, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
71.105.72.X

: Nina, : : In the spirit of something unexpected this : way comes I have been trying to press some : of your buttons to see what kind of a : reaction I would get. In the past you would : have slapped my face and not talked to me : for 47 days. But who's counting? : : Dance away Nina, Dance away. But not far : away. : : Butch : Was that a B1tch slap...... I mean Butch slap? Hehe.

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Posted by Butch on 8/9/2008, 5:18 pm, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
75.88.44.X

--Previous Message-- : : Nina, : : In the spirit of something unexpected this : way comes I have been trying to press some : of your buttons to see what kind of a : reaction I would get. In the past you would : have slapped my face and not talked to me : for 47 days. But who's counting? : : Dance away Nina, Dance away. But not far : away. : : Butch : : : : Was that a B1tch slap...... I mean Butch : slap? Hehe. : : : Nina, Ouch!... do you want me to turn my other cheek? Butch

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Posted by Butch on 8/9/2008, 6:03 pm, in reply to "Soup or natural?"
75.88.44.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Butch : : If you google image "the buddhabrot : technique" there are pictures of the : third eye that look like old buddhist : pictures, realy amazing! I don't know how it : was done yet but it reminds me of Karilion : photography (russian guy) took photos of : electricity. : : : JodyydoJ, : : Great stuff. Thanks for the turn on. : : To see a Buddhabrot click on: : : : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ej3dj4x64k : : ButchhctuB : :I had met a real witch from fallriver mass. : as soon as I made a profile on : "TAGGED" (out of a million people : all over the world)not someone who just : likes books n pictures, anywho, she wrote : that my mother told her to treat me good and : I beleive her, I had a girlfriend in Boston : (very powerful soul) and she saw her, I know : it was real. Alot of lonely lost souls and : very creative "ones?" in this : electric conecter. It amazizs me how much : the computer coralates with spirtuality, : even sending signiles to a copier to : manifest in the "flesh" TAG your : it! Oh Jody! : : : Jody, Computers are feminine. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. Now I'm on Nina's Steve list again. I may need a spankin'. I bought my first Big Mac about 25 years ago. It had a 2" screen and 12 ghz processor. I think it had about 17 k of memory. And the Hard Disk was to die for, it had 20, that's 20, mb of space and the kind of blazing speed a snail would mock. All for about 3 grand. The good ol' days. You could do a search of past presidents and no Bushes were to be found that didn't have birds in them. And gas was 6 cents a barrel. Anyone that accuses me of revisionism will be deleted. Butch

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Posted by Butch on 8/9/2008, 6:11 pm, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
75.88.44.X

--Previous Message-- : First up Butch, i'm a Buddhist not a pacifist : and secondly, there is every possibility : that if we don't ground our practice then we : could become wizards or consider the rural : to be better than the urban or become either : a nihilist or an eternalist. Such things are : infinitely worse, imo, than becoming a : terrorist *stroke* freedom fighter. : Lian Dao, You may want to try a non-deodorant soap. I hear they don't taste quite so bad. Have you tried Ivory? All belligerent buddhists are oxymorons! First you condemn dividing things up a certain way then you divide them up your way. I'm not playing cards with you. Not if you get to deal. Terrorist Buddhist anyway. What are you going to do, sit me to death. Butch

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/10/2008, 5:29 am, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
149.254.200.X

i wasn't aware that i was asking you to play cards or advice on which brand of soap to buy but thanks anyway Butch. Regarding Buddhism may i dare suggest that you look into the history of the martial arts in East Asia? Belligerence is one thing and pacifism is quite the other, there is, perhaps, a middle ground between the two?

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/10/2008, 6:13 am, in reply to "Re: the devil finds work for idle hands"
149.254.200.X

If you had to choose Butch, what would you rather be:- a terrorist or a freedom fighter? Or is it not that simple?

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Posted by Bao Pu on 8/10/2008, 6:13 am, in reply to ""Something Unexpected This Way Comes""
99.255.167.X

--Previous Message-- : Friends, : : The pineal gland is the physical location of : the Ajna or Brow Chakra--or the "Third : Eye" if you prefer. It is a small gland : with the ability to detect electromagnetic : enery, light. Its cells are similar to optic : cells. It is located at the geometric center : of the brain. It is a gateway between the : physical and the metaphysical aspects of : reality. It is active in children but : atrophies in most adults. It can be : reactivated, awakened. Though there are : other means of activation most wisdom : traditions recommend meditation. : : A few links, obviously you can do your own : search if you would like to know more. Thanks. I did that. Here's one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/ask_the_doctor/pinealgland.shtml I haven't yet seen any mention of its inactivity in adults, or that it can be awakened by meditation. Harmony and happiness, Bao Pu

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/10/2008, 10:57 am, in reply to "Re: watch your step"
149.254.200.X

Maybe the symbiosis is already there where we are trying to force it in? Just actually started biking, tentatively, again but i far more enjoy hiking and fell walking. Do they have fells in the New World? Nothing like getting drenched half way up a mountain. Just me and the clouds and then watching the sun rays break through over the cityscape.

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Posted by Steve on 8/10/2008, 1:01 pm, in reply to "one step at a time"
69.140.59.X

: Maybe the symbiosis is already there where we : are trying to force it in? ------------------ Not only is it already there, but it is inescapable. The bacteria living in our intestines and on our skin are forms of symbiosis.

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Posted by Lian Dao on 8/10/2008, 3:53 pm, in reply to "Re: one step at a time"
149.254.200.X

Not unlike the symbiosis of the skhandic elements that correlate into our sense of selfood?

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Posted by Butch on 8/10/2008, 8:02 pm, in reply to "Re: "Something Unexpected This Way Comes""
162.39.190.X

--Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : Friends, : : The pineal gland is the physical location of : the Ajna or Brow Chakra--or the "Third : Eye" if you prefer. It is a small gland : with the ability to detect electromagnetic : enery, light. Its cells are similar to optic : cells. It is located at the geometric center : of the brain. It is a gateway between the : physical and the metaphysical aspects of : reality. It is active in children but : atrophies in most adults. It can be : reactivated, awakened. Though there are : other means of activation most wisdom : traditions recommend meditation. : : A few links, obviously you can do your own : search if you would like to know more. : : : Thanks. I did that. Here's one: : : http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/ask_the_doctor/pinealgland.shtml : : I haven't yet seen any mention of its : inactivity in adults, or that it can be : awakened by meditation. : : Harmony and happiness, : Bao Pu : Bao Pu, In the Upanishads mankind is said to have 10 gates, 10 opennings. Nine gates, eyes, ears, nostrils,..., lead outside to the sensory world. The 10th, the Third Eye or Pineal Gland, leads to inner realms that house various types of consciousness. No one has mapped the body/mind complex like the great Indian mystics. So-called "Modern Medicine" which might be better described as "Mechanistic Medicine" or "Emergency Medicine" has only just recently admitted that there is such a thing as Energy Meridians in the human body. Such things as Third Eyes are currently not within the scope of modern medicine. "The Light of the body is the eye; if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light". Jesus. Matthew 6:22. As I have said before, imo "All" of the great sages from every time and every place are pointing at the same Moon. At a direct experience of reality as it is and not as it seems. The mystics may call reality a different name and describe it in different ways, one blind man feels a leg and another feels the tail, but they are all talking about the same elephant. It is us believers and followers that muddy the water by trying to understand what can only be experienced. I AM THAT I AM. It is through the 10th gate, the third eye, the pineal gland, that the adept uses to discern what is not readily apparent to the other 9 gates. The visible is less real than the invisible. Whatever manifests changes. That which does not manifest does not change. There is an underlying unity within existence some call the eternal Tao. The Way of Lao Tzu is Meditation. "Without going out his door he knows the whole world without looking out his window he knows the Way of Heaven... the adept knows without moving..." Verse #47, TTC. Our third eye must be reawakened if we are to know the whole and not merely some of the parts. Meditation is Wu-wei. The Tao is something unexpected. Butch

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Posted by Nina on 8/10/2008, 8:30 pm, in reply to "one step at a time"
71.106.43.X

--Previous Message-- : Maybe the symbiosis is already there where we : are trying to force it in? Just actually : started biking, tentatively, again but i far : more enjoy hiking and fell walking. Do they : have fells in the New World? Nothing like : getting drenched half way up a mountain. : Just me and the clouds and then watching the : sun rays break through over the cityscape. : What a beautiful image. I can almost feel it...... Raindrops on my face. Rays of sun delighting the dance. Yes! Ummmm....... what's a fell? No, I don't think symbiosis is already there... not in all situations. When I'm dancing and someone tries to grab me and force me into their dance - no symbiosis. I've spent too much time trying to find symbiosis where there is none. May I mention a Zhuangzi story? The guy who collected all his horse's shit and piss then got kicked by the horse and knocked out. No symbiosis?

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Posted by Wayne L on 8/11/2008, 9:54 am, in reply to "Re: reality is a mirror"
205.212.74.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : By the way, there is no mirror. : Butch : : : True but only for those, whose Reality is : nothing more than a mere reflection of : Reality, that live in the World of Illusion. By Definition a Mirror is not a mirror if it is full of Blemishes, if it does not Faithfully show a representation of something other than the mirror itself. Mirror; 5. something that gives a minutely faithful representation, image, or idea of something else.

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Posted by Jody on 8/11/2008, 11:56 pm, in reply to "Re: "Something Unexpected This Way Comes""
99.204.37.X

--Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : Friends, : : The pineal gland is the physical location of : the Ajna or Brow Chakra--or the "Third : Eye" if you prefer. It is a small gland : with the ability to detect electromagnetic : enery, light. Its cells are similar to optic : cells. It is located at the geometric center : of the brain. It is a gateway between the : physical and the metaphysical aspects of : reality. It is active in children but : atrophies in most adults. It can be : reactivated, awakened. Though there are : other means of activation most wisdom : traditions recommend meditation. : : A few links, obviously you can do your own : search if you would like to know more. : : : Thanks. I did that. Here's one: : : : http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/ask_the_doctor/pinealgland.shtml : : I haven't yet seen any mention of its : inactivity in adults, or that it can be : awakened by meditation. : : Harmony and happiness, : Bao Pu : : Bao Pu, : : In the Upanishads mankind is said to have 10 : gates, 10 opennings. Nine gates, eyes, ears, : nostrils,..., lead outside to the sensory : world. The 10th, the Third Eye or Pineal : Gland, leads to inner realms that house : various types of consciousness. No one has : mapped the body/mind complex like the great : Indian mystics. : : So-called "Modern Medicine" which : might be better described as : "Mechanistic Medicine" or : "Emergency Medicine" has only just : recently admitted that there is such a thing : as Energy Meridians in the human body. Such : things as Third Eyes are currently not : within the scope of modern medicine. : : "The Light of the body is the eye; if : therefore thine eye be single, thy whole : body shall be full of light". Jesus. : Matthew 6:22. : : As I have said before, imo "All" : of the great sages from every time and every : place are pointing at the same Moon. At a : direct experience of reality as it is and : not as it seems. The mystics may call : reality a different name and describe it in : different ways, one blind man feels a leg : and another feels the tail, but they are all : talking about the same elephant. It is us : believers and followers that muddy the water : by trying to understand what can only be : experienced. I AM THAT I AM. : : It is through the 10th gate, the third eye, : the pineal gland, that the adept uses to : discern what is not readily apparent to the : other 9 gates. The visible is less real than : the invisible. Whatever manifests changes. : That which does not manifest does not : change. There is an underlying unity within : existence some call the eternal Tao. The Way : of Lao Tzu is Meditation. : : "Without going out his door : he knows the whole world : without looking out his window : he knows the Way of Heaven... : the adept knows without moving..." : : Verse #47, TTC. : : Our third eye must be reawakened if we are : to know the whole and not merely some of the : parts. Meditation is Wu-wei. : : The Tao is something unexpected. : : Butch : :"What's this? An empty box?" "No! It's a mental enema!" "But I don't see anything!" "You will, and it will be a present for someone else, one that you will both enjoy." Here's a meta4 that just blew in "Reading a road map of how to go home and realizing, your already home." (the Tao just told me that one) Y do J ? P.S. Wu-wei, sounds like your on a roller coaster! Yeah! Dats da ticket! : : : : : : : : : :

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Posted by Butch on 8/12/2008, 9:06 am, in reply to "Merry Christmas !"
162.39.190.X

--Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : Friends, : : The pineal gland is the physical location of : the Ajna or Brow Chakra--or the "Third : Eye" if you prefer. It is a small gland : with the ability to detect electromagnetic : enery, light. Its cells are similar to optic : cells. It is located at the geometric center : of the brain. It is a gateway between the : physical and the metaphysical aspects of : reality. It is active in children but : atrophies in most adults. It can be : reactivated, awakened. Though there are : other means of activation most wisdom : traditions recommend meditation. : : A few links, obviously you can do your own : search if you would like to know more. : : : Thanks. I did that. Here's one: : : : : http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/ask_the_doctor/pinealgland.shtml : : I haven't yet seen any mention of its : inactivity in adults, or that it can be : awakened by meditation. : : Harmony and happiness, : Bao Pu : : Bao Pu, : : In the Upanishads mankind is said to have 10 : gates, 10 opennings. Nine gates, eyes, ears, : nostrils,..., lead outside to the sensory : world. The 10th, the Third Eye or Pineal : Gland, leads to inner realms that house : various types of consciousness. No one has : mapped the body/mind complex like the great : Indian mystics. : : So-called "Modern Medicine" which : might be better described as : "Mechanistic Medicine" or : "Emergency Medicine" has only just : recently admitted that there is such a thing : as Energy Meridians in the human body. Such : things as Third Eyes are currently not : within the scope of modern medicine. : : "The Light of the body is the eye; if : therefore thine eye be single, thy whole : body shall be full of light". Jesus. : Matthew 6:22. : : As I have said before, imo "All" : of the great sages from every time and every : place are pointing at the same Moon. At a : direct experience of reality as it is and : not as it seems. The mystics may call : reality a different name and describe it in : different ways, one blind man feels a leg : and another feels the tail, but they are all : talking about the same elephant. It is us : believers and followers that muddy the water : by trying t