Posted by Fastovsky on 5/6/2008, 10:38 pm
66.15.76.X

From "The Onion" Calling it the most effective tool to date in the War on Terror, the Pentagon announced Monday that it had developed a new chemical weapon called "ennui gas," a nerve agent that overwhelms its victims with sudden philosophical distress over the meaningless tedium of human life and a sinking sense that everything they have ever accomplished ultimately ammounts to dust. The military assured Amnesty International and other human-rights groups that ennui gas causes no pain, save for the pain of realizing that one has wasted his life. As proof, Pentagon representative Byron Christie voluntarily inhaled a small amount of ennui gas at a private press conference last week. "Because ennui gas is a nonpersistant substance, it is highly probable that its victims will someday feel whole again," said Christie, suddenly furrowing his brow and gripping his temples. "Then again, no one is truly whole, are they? We are all just pieces of flesh and bone masquerading as life, and the world will go on without me, my absence un-noticed, death as futile as life. Pain hath no sting, and pleasure's wreath no flower." Christie then lay down behind the podium and told members of the press to leave, repeatedly stating that there is no point to it all.

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Posted by gar on 5/7/2008, 5:08 am, in reply to ""Ennui Gas""
74.47.80.X

--Previous Message-- : From "The Onion" : Calling it the most effective tool to : date in the War on Terror, the Pentagon : announced Monday that it had developed a new : chemical weapon called "ennui : gas," a nerve agent that overwhelms its : victims with sudden philosophical distress : over the meaningless tedium of human life : and a sinking sense that everything they : have ever accomplished ultimately ammounts : to dust. : The military assured Amnesty : International and other human-rights groups : that ennui gas causes no pain, save for the : pain of realizing that one has wasted his : life. : As proof, Pentagon representative Byron : Christie voluntarily inhaled a small amount : of ennui gas at a private press conference : last week. : "Because ennui gas is a nonpersistant : substance, it is highly probable that its : victims will someday feel whole again," : said Christie, suddenly furrowing his brow : and gripping his temples. "Then again, : no one is truly whole, are they? We are all : just pieces of flesh and bone masquerading : as life, and the world will go on without : me, my absence un-noticed, death as futile : as life. Pain hath no sting, and pleasure's : wreath no flower." : Christie then lay down behind the podium : and told members of the press to leave, : repeatedly stating that there is no point to : it all. : Greetings Fastovsky, It seems that we are not, what we think we are. http://www.cracked.com/article_16239_5-psychological-experiments-that-prove-humanity-doomed.html in peace, gar

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Posted by Steve on 5/7/2008, 9:23 am, in reply to ""Ennui Gas""
69.140.59.X

Nothing new there. Ennui gas has been around for thousands of years, emitted from the rear ends of countless gurus, prophets, priests, masters, and gods. It goes something like this: "I know something you don't know. Your pleasures and happiness are illusions. There's something really really pleasurable and happy out there, but you don't see it because you're not enlightened. To be enlightened, you have to do things and work hard. You have to leave everything you know behind. What you've been doing up until now has been wrong. But--if you get very sick or very old or very tired--or say you develop Alzheimer's Disease or move somewhere where there are no books, Internet, gurus, prophets, priests, or masters--you're out of luck. There's no hope that you'll ever be enlightened or know happiness, because you won't know what to do."

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Posted by Butch on 5/7/2008, 3:55 pm, in reply to "Re: "Ennui Gas""
216.96.14.X

--Previous Message-- : Nothing new there. Ennui gas has been around : for thousands of years, emitted from the : rear ends of countless gurus, prophets, : priests, masters, and gods. : : It goes something like this: : : "I know something you don't know. Your : pleasures and happiness are illusions. : There's something really really pleasurable : and happy out there, but you don't see it : because you're not enlightened. : : To be enlightened, you have to do things and : work hard. You have to leave everything you : know behind. What you've been doing up : until now has been wrong. : : But--if you get very sick or very old or : very tired--or say you develop Alzheimer's : Disease or move somewhere where there are no : books, Internet, gurus, prophets, priests, : or masters--you're out of luck. There's no : hope that you'll ever be enlightened or know : happiness, because you won't know what to : do." : : : Friends?, I find your words depressing. I hope you are happy. Butch

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Posted by Steve on 5/7/2008, 8:03 pm, in reply to "With Friends like you who needs an enema?"
69.140.59.X

: Nothing new there. Ennui gas has been : around : for thousands of years, emitted from the : rear ends of countless gurus, prophets, : priests, masters, and gods. : : It goes something like this: : : "I know something you don't know. Your : pleasures and happiness are illusions. : There's something really really pleasurable : and happy out there, but you don't see it : because you're not enlightened. : : To be enlightened, you have to do things and : work hard. You have to leave everything you : know behind. What you've been doing up : until now has been wrong. : : But--if you get very sick or very old or : very tired--or say you develop Alzheimer's : Disease or move somewhere where there are no : books, Internet, gurus, prophets, priests, : or masters--you're out of luck. There's no : hope that you'll ever be enlightened or know : happiness, because you won't know what to : do." -------------------- : Friends?, : : I find your words depressing. I hope you are : happy. : : Butch ----------------------- Butch, I've always honored and respected your honesty, something you may have found is not always honored and respected on these here Internets. lol. What is it that you find depressing, friend? Steve

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Posted by Butch on 5/7/2008, 8:30 pm, in reply to "Re: With Friends like you who needs an enema?"
216.96.14.X

--Previous Message-- : Nothing new there. Ennui gas has been : around : for thousands of years, emitted from the : rear ends of countless gurus, prophets, : priests, masters, and gods. : : It goes something like this: : : "I know something you don't know. Your : pleasures and happiness are illusions. : There's something really really pleasurable : and happy out there, but you don't see it : because you're not enlightened. : : To be enlightened, you have to do things and : work hard. You have to leave everything you : know behind. What you've been doing up : until now has been wrong. : : But--if you get very sick or very old or : very tired--or say you develop Alzheimer's : Disease or move somewhere where there are no : books, Internet, gurus, prophets, priests, : or masters--you're out of luck. There's no : hope that you'll ever be enlightened or know : happiness, because you won't know what to : do." : : -------------------- : : Friends?, : : I find your words depressing. I hope you are : happy. : : Butch : : ----------------------- : : Butch, : : I've always honored and respected your : honesty, something you may have found is not : always honored and respected on these here : Internets. lol. : : What is it that you find depressing, friend? : : Steve : : : Steve, I was just trying to enlighten things up a bit. Dimitri: I've got to admit, Tasso, this epistemology stuff is good to know. Tasso: Good? In what way? What do you mean by "good"? Dimitri: Before I answer that, I have a question for you. Do you know what "pain in the ass" means? Butch

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Posted by Steve on 5/7/2008, 8:52 pm, in reply to "Re: With Friends like you who needs an enema?"
69.140.59.X

: Steve, : : I was just trying to enlighten things up a : bit. : : Dimitri: I've got to admit, Tasso, this : epistemology stuff is good to know. : : Tasso: Good? In what way? What do you mean : by "good"? : : Dimitri: Before I answer that, I have a : question for you. Do you know what : "pain in the ass" means? : : Butch ---------------- I won't go there, Butch, but I still love you. Despite your spiritual psychosis. Perhaps you or someone else will entertain my putrid post above, and consider discussing something above and beyond the "all is one/all is an illusion" spiritually-correct crap so in vogue on the other boards. Steve

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Posted by Butch on 5/8/2008, 7:29 am, in reply to "Re: With Friends like you who needs an enema?"
162.39.190.X

--Previous Message-- : Steve, : : I was just trying to enlighten things up a : bit. : : Dimitri: I've got to admit, Tasso, this : epistemology stuff is good to know. : : Tasso: Good? In what way? What do you mean : by "good"? : : Dimitri: Before I answer that, I have a : question for you. Do you know what : "pain in the ass" means? : : Butch : : ---------------- : : I won't go there, Butch, but I still love : you. Despite your spiritual psychosis. : : Perhaps you or someone else will entertain : my putrid post above, and consider : discussing something above and beyond the : "all is one/all is an illusion" : spiritually-correct crap so in vogue on the : other boards. : : Steve : : Steve, All is not One. It is a unitive one, whole. And, as is the case with all wholes, it is a reality greater than the sum of its parts. The tao that can be numbered is not the eternal Tao. All is not an illusion. The illusion is thinking anything is separate from the whole. The thinking that all is an illusion is most often used as a copout for expediency. Jesus was not a Christian. All he did was go about each day doing good. (If you ask me what "good" is I will give you a nice Hawaiian Punch). His life was anything but spiritually correct. He was far more interested in internal realities than external ones. In the heart than in superficialities. I go to church every Sunday because I raise a little hell on Saturday. "The Love/Religion has no code or doctrine. Only Love." Rumi The master sages are grounded in love... sometimes tough love too.... tough love is a kick in the ass when we are constipated. Punchy

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Posted by Lian Dao on 5/8/2008, 9:46 am, in reply to "Re: With Friends like you who needs an enema?"
149.254.201.X

Butch, what does 'good' mean? According to Nietschze Yeshua was the only Christian ever. Personally i don't care either way.

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Posted by Steve on 5/8/2008, 9:57 am, in reply to "Re: With Friends like you who needs an enema?"
69.140.59.X

: All is not One. It is a unitive one, whole. : And, as is the case with all wholes, it is a : reality greater than the sum of its parts. : The tao that can be numbered is not the : eternal Tao. : : All is not an illusion. The illusion is : thinking anything is separate from the : whole. The thinking that all is an illusion : is most often used as a copout for : expediency. : : Jesus was not a Christian. All he did was go : about each day doing good. (If you ask me : what "good" is I will give you a : nice Hawaiian Punch). His life was anything : but spiritually correct. He was far more : interested in internal realities than : external ones. In the heart than in : superficialities. I go to church every : Sunday because I raise a little hell on : Saturday. : : "The Love/Religion has no code or : doctrine. Only Love." Rumi : : The master sages are grounded in love... : sometimes tough love too.... tough love is a : kick in the ass when we are constipated. ----------------------- I don't know, Butch...it looks as fragmented to me as it looks 'whole.' I like not being able to characterize what I see. As for 'love,' seems to me the best I can do is leave the goddamn universe alone and let it go about its business. Maybe Jesus and Company should stop pushing the love thing so much. I doubt that the universe is impressed.

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Posted by What would Jesus say? on 5/8/2008, 11:04 am, in reply to "Things are not what they appear to be; nor are they otherwise - Surangama Sutra."
76.192.128.X

--Previous Message-- : Butch, what does 'good' mean? According to : Nietschze Yeshua was the only Christian : ever. Personally i don't care either way. : Love is the absence of good and bad. "Make no normative judgment" Jesus "Embrace what the world throws in the trash." Zhuangzi

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Posted by Wayne L on 5/8/2008, 11:14 am, in reply to "Re: "Ennui Gas""
209.59.49.X

That has to be the wisest thing you have ever posted. The only problem is that it is, "The Absolute Truth"!!!!!! Keeper of the Holy Grail --Previous Message-- : Nothing new there. Ennui gas has been around : for thousands of years, emitted from the : rear ends of countless gurus, prophets, : priests, masters, and gods. : : It goes something like this: : : "I know something you don't know. Your : pleasures and happiness are illusions. : There's something really really pleasurable : and happy out there, but you don't see it : because you're not enlightened. : : To be enlightened, you have to do things and : work hard. You have to leave everything you : know behind. What you've been doing up : until now has been wrong. : : But--if you get very sick or very old or : very tired--or say you develop Alzheimer's : Disease or move somewhere where there are no : books, Internet, gurus, prophets, priests, : or masters--you're out of luck. There's no : hope that you'll ever be enlightened or know : happiness, because you won't know what to : do." : : : :

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Posted by Wayne L on 5/8/2008, 11:16 am, in reply to "Re: With Friends like you who needs an enema?"
209.59.49.X

--Previous Message-- : : What is it that you find depressing, friend? : : Steve The Truth! : :

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Posted by Wayne L on 5/8/2008, 11:19 am, in reply to "Re: With Friends like you who needs an enema?"
209.59.49.X

--Previous Message-- : Perhaps you or someone else will entertain : my putrid post above, and consider : discussing something above and beyond the : "all is one/all is an illusion" : spiritually-correct crap so in vogue on the : other boards. : : Steve Oh! The True hurts does it?

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Posted by Steve on 5/8/2008, 11:30 am, in reply to "Re: Things are not what they appear to be; nor are they otherwise - Surangama Sutra."
69.140.59.X

: Love is the absence of good and bad. : "Make no normative judgment" Jesus : : "Embrace what the world throws in the : trash." Zhuangzi ------------------- Yes, that's it. 'Good' is what furthers the game, and assuming the humans don't upset the natural balances (or even, perhaps, when they do), 'good' and 'bad' are indistinguishable. It's neither good nor bad when a dry summer produces fires that decimate thousands of acres of woodland. That war and human aggression have been around as long as the humans suggests that even those phenomena serve purposes unfathomable to us. The mystical Christians get this. It was 'bad' that Jesus was tormented and crucified, but without this 'bad,' the 'good' of our salvation would not have been realized. Without the 'bad,' no 'good.' Laozi 101.

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Posted by What would Jesus say? on 5/8/2008, 11:46 am, in reply to "Re: Things are not what they appear to be; nor are they otherwise - Surangama Sutra."
76.192.128.X

--Previous Message-- : Love is the absence of good and bad. : "Make no normative judgment" Jesus : : "Embrace what the world throws in the : trash." Zhuangzi : : ------------------- : : Yes, that's it. : : 'Good' is what furthers the game, and : assuming the humans don't upset the natural : balances (or even, perhaps, when they do), : 'good' and 'bad' are indistinguishable. : : It's neither good nor bad when a dry summer : produces fires that decimate thousands of : acres of woodland. That war and human : aggression have been around as long as the : humans suggests that even those phenomena : serve purposes unfathomable to us. : : The mystical Christians get this. It was : 'bad' that Jesus was tormented and : crucified, but without this 'bad,' the : 'good' of our salvation would not have been : realized. : : Without the 'bad,' no 'good.' : : Laozi 101. : : Indeed. One of Zhuangzi's interrogators asked him what the hell the dao was good for if it couldn't tell you how to do good. He suggested to the fellow that it was good for helping you not care that you couldn't actually know how to do good.

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Posted by Wayne L on 5/8/2008, 12:32 pm, in reply to "Re: With Friends like you who needs an enema?"
209.59.49.X

Was Jesus the Christ? According to the last Temptation of Christ Jesus was torn between the Spirit and the Flesh. The Christ, the Son of God, a Son being born in the image of the Father, must be an Immortal Being, a God in the Flesh, The Spirit of God alive in the Flesh Body. The Christ, the Savoir of Mankind must not be torn between the Spirit and the Flesh, Spirituality and Materialism, between Rationalism and Empiricism. The Christ will have Won the Battle between the Spirit the Flesh when the Two become One, the Christ walking the Earth in both Spirit and Flesh. The Two, the Spirit and the Flesh, as One, the Whole, is Greater that the sum total of the Two, is Greater than the Two each acting alone, as individualities, as though the Whole were two, as thought each were separate and distinct one from the other in quality, as though the Whole were a Singularity having a Dual Quality, as though the Whole were a Duality. Reason is both Mankind's Salvation and his Curse. Monergism, Spiritualism, Rationalism, Reason, alone, as the Single, Soul, Source of Knowledge, Wisdom, Enlightenment, Regeneration, without common sense, without being sensible, is Deadly, is not what make Man a Humane Being. Fundamentally Speaking, If Man’s Wisdom, Enlightenment, Knowledge were born of Experience alone, Man would be nothing more than a Beast, a mere animal left standing Bare-Ass-Naked alone in the Emptiness, Wilderness, of Time and Space, not knowing what time is. Does anyone ever really know what time it is?? Now is the Time! --Previous Message-- : All is not One. It is a unitive one, whole. : And, as is the case with all wholes, it is a : reality greater than the sum of its parts. : The tao that can be numbered is not the : eternal Tao. : : All is not an illusion. The illusion is : thinking anything is separate from the : whole. The thinking that all is an illusion : is most often used as a copout for : expediency. : : Jesus was not a Christian. All he did was go : about each day doing good. (If you ask me : what "good" is I will give you a : nice Hawaiian Punch). His life was anything : but spiritually correct. He was far more : interested in internal realities than : external ones. In the heart than in : superficialities. I go to church every : Sunday because I raise a little hell on : Saturday. : : "The Love/Religion has no code or : doctrine. Only Love." Rumi : : The master sages are grounded in love... : sometimes tough love too.... tough love is a : kick in the ass when we are constipated. : : Punchy :

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Posted by Wayne L on 5/8/2008, 12:33 pm, in reply to "Things are not what they appear to be; nor are they otherwise - Surangama Sutra."
209.59.49.X

--Previous Message-- : Butch, what does 'good' mean? According to : Nietschze Yeshua was the only Christian : ever. Personally i don't care either way. : Nietschze was a Monergist.

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Posted by Steve on 5/8/2008, 1:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Jesus was not a Christian"
69.140.59.X

: The Christ, the Savoir of Mankind must not : be torn between the Spirit and the Flesh, : Spirituality and Materialism, between : Rationalism and Empiricism. : : The Christ will have Won the Battle between : the Spirit the Flesh when the Two become : One, the Christ walking the Earth in both : Spirit and Flesh. -------------------- The notion of the Human-God is appealing to Westerners (like me) for whom Laoist/Zhuangzist thought is also appealing. Fully flesh, and fully not-of-the-flesh. Regretting neither. Savoring both.

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Posted by Wayne L on 5/8/2008, 2:12 pm, in reply to "Jesus as ultimate human"
76.87.5.X

--Previous Message-- : The Christ, the Savoir of Mankind must not : be torn between the Spirit and the Flesh, : Spirituality and Materialism, between : Rationalism and Empiricism. : : The Christ will have Won the Battle between : the Spirit the Flesh when the Two become : One, the Christ walking the Earth in both : Spirit and Flesh. : : -------------------- : : The notion of the Human-God is appealing to : Westerners (like me) for whom : Laoist/Zhuangzist thought is also appealing. : : Fully flesh, and fully not-of-the-flesh. : : Regretting neither. Savoring both. There are many Chinese Immortal Beings, an Immortal Being God in the Flesh. Buddha's Footprint is than of an Immortal, a Supreme Being, God in the Flesh. The Swastika, Su Asti, meaning Good Being, Well Being, Supreme Being.

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Posted by Lian Dao on 5/8/2008, 2:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Things are not what they appear to be; nor are they otherwise - Surangama Sutra."
149.254.192.X

: : Love is the absence of good and bad. : "Make no normative judgment" Jesus : : "Embrace what the world throws in the : trash." Zhuangzi : The good mind thinks in terms of good and bad. 'No respect nor service is to be shown them because their teachings, though they may be explained by using hundreds and thousands of words and phrases, do not go beyond the concerns of this world and so they lead to suffering' Lankavatara Sutra.

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Posted by Lian Dao on 5/8/2008, 2:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Things are not what they appear to be; nor are they otherwise - Surangama Sutra."
149.254.192.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Butch, what does 'good' mean? According to : Nietschze Yeshua was the only Christian : ever. Personally i don't care either way. : : Nietschze was a Monergist. : We all have to be something.

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Posted by Lian Dao on 5/8/2008, 3:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Things are not what they appear to be; nor are they otherwise - Surangama Sutra."
149.254.192.X

It was 'bad' for Yeshua when he got nailed to an old tree and it has been 'bad' for lots and lots of other people ever since. If i ever get to meet Yeshua bim Myriam, which i won't as i'm going to Tushita-heaven, i will personally ram his 'salvation' so far up his self-proclaimed divine posterior that he will think that its his so-called 'second-coming'. Burma and Tibet are 'bad' places to be right now. i'm planning on smuggling guns and disaster relief to both and i don't give two f--ks what that makes me

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Posted by Steve on 5/9/2008, 9:25 am, in reply to "Viva la revolutionary-synapse"
69.140.59.X

: It was 'bad' for Yeshua when he got nailed to : an old tree and it has been 'bad' for lots : and lots of other people ever since. If i : ever get to meet Yeshua bim Myriam, which i : won't as i'm going to Tushita-heaven, i will : personally ram his 'salvation' so far up his : self-proclaimed divine posterior that he : will think that its his so-called : 'second-coming'. Burma and Tibet are 'bad' : places to be right now. i'm planning on : smuggling guns and disaster relief to both : and i don't give two f--ks what that makes : me. -------------------- As stated in the sutras: "The practitioner must cultivate the various samadhi and enter deeply into right concentration to obtain rebirth in the Inner Court of the Tushita Heaven." This would seem to preclude those with potty-mouth. You may need to clean up your act beforehand. In Laoist heaven (where I'm going), vintage Judy Garland plays in the background and beneficial rains fill parched streams. People forget that there are things to do. Buddhism is hard. Laoism is easy.

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Posted by Wayne L on 5/9/2008, 9:26 am, in reply to "God is dead- Nietschze; Nietschze is dead- God"
207.195.253.X

--Previous Message-- : --Previous Message-- : Butch, what does 'good' mean? According to : Nietschze Yeshua was the only Christian : ever. Personally i don't care either way. : : Nietschze was a Monergist. : : We all have to be something. Actually, The Christ is the First of many, and there have been many would be Christ’s. The First to find the Way, Freedom, Free Will, Boundless, Freedom from the Chaos of Materiality, Cause and Effect, determinism, and especially to destroy the Law, the knowledge of Good and Evil, Right and Wrong, The Law, The Selfish-Righteousness of the Pharisees, the Pharaoh, The Pharos, Morality, the First to Return, to pave the Way back to Paradise, to Create a Heaven on Earth, as above so below.

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Posted by Butch on 5/9/2008, 2:57 pm, in reply to ""Ennui Gas""
216.96.15.X

--Previous Message-- : From "The Onion" : Calling it the most effective tool to : date in the War on Terror, the Pentagon : announced Monday that it had developed a new : chemical weapon called "ennui : gas," a nerve agent that overwhelms its : victims with sudden philosophical distress : over the meaningless tedium of human life : and a sinking sense that everything they : have ever accomplished ultimately ammounts : to dust. : The military assured Amnesty : International and other human-rights groups : that ennui gas causes no pain, save for the : pain of realizing that one has wasted his : life. : As proof, Pentagon representative Byron : Christie voluntarily inhaled a small amount : of ennui gas at a private press conference : last week. : "Because ennui gas is a nonpersistant : substance, it is highly probable that its : victims will someday feel whole again," : said Christie, suddenly furrowing his brow : and gripping his temples. "Then again, : no one is truly whole, are they? We are all : just pieces of flesh and bone masquerading : as life, and the world will go on without : me, my absence un-noticed, death as futile : as life. Pain hath no sting, and pleasure's : wreath no flower." : Christie then lay down behind the podium : and told members of the press to leave, : repeatedly stating that there is no point to : it all. : Fastovsky, The point is love. What a person believes or disbelieves is meaningless without love. If a person has no love in their heart then they are for all intents and purposes dead. Dead on the inside. I choose love. I choose life. There is more than enough hate in the world already. Death will come soon enough of its own accord. Living solely in the conditioned mind, the way of ennui, is a shallow existence. Better to look reality directly in the eye than glance around for it in the shadows. From the first the whole and all of its seeming parts are a unitive one. The part finds itself when it finds the whole. As above, so below. Butch

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Posted by gar on 5/9/2008, 4:01 pm, in reply to "Re: "Ennui Gas""
74.47.80.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : From "The Onion" : Calling it the most effective tool to : date in the War on Terror, the Pentagon : announced Monday that it had developed a new : chemical weapon called "ennui : gas," a nerve agent that overwhelms its : victims with sudden philosophical distress : over the meaningless tedium of human life : and a sinking sense that everything they : have ever accomplished ultimately ammounts : to dust. : The military assured Amnesty : International and other human-rights groups : that ennui gas causes no pain, save for the : pain of realizing that one has wasted his : life. : As proof, Pentagon representative Byron : Christie voluntarily inhaled a small amount : of ennui gas at a private press conference : last week. : "Because ennui gas is a nonpersistant : substance, it is highly probable that its : victims will someday feel whole again," : said Christie, suddenly furrowing his brow : and gripping his temples. "Then again, : no one is truly whole, are they? We are all : just pieces of flesh and bone masquerading : as life, and the world will go on without : me, my absence un-noticed, death as futile : as life. Pain hath no sting, and pleasure's : wreath no flower." : Christie then lay down behind the podium : and told members of the press to leave, : repeatedly stating that there is no point to : it all. : : Fastovsky, : : The point is love. What a person believes or : disbelieves is meaningless without love. : : If a person has no love in their heart then : they are for all intents and purposes dead. : Dead on the inside. : : I choose love. I choose life. There is more : than enough hate in the world already. Death : will come soon enough of its own accord. : : Living solely in the conditioned mind, the : way of ennui, is a shallow existence. Better : to look reality directly in the eye than : glance around for it in the shadows. : : From the first the whole and all of its : seeming parts are a unitive one. The part : finds itself when it finds the whole. As : above, so below. : : Butch : Greetings butch, I would love to read your treatise on love and how it might be manifested in your behavior. in peace, gar

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Posted by Lian Dao on 5/9/2008, 5:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Viva la revolutionary-synapse"
149.254.192.X

And you will note in your little quotation the term 'right' rather than the term 'good' concentration. And there are no rules on swearing which may upset the Little House On The Prarie ingrained twee morality that passes for spirituality in your particular country. Also another and, Buddhism is hard for a reason. Now if any of you North Americans would like to donate any unwanted firearms to a good cause. . .

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Posted by Lian Dao on 5/9/2008, 5:37 pm, in reply to "Re: God is dead- Nietschze; Nietschze is dead- God"
149.254.192.X

Wayne, are you aware of the Druze of Lebanon and Israel?

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Posted by Butch on 5/10/2008, 4:46 am, in reply to "Re: "Ennui Gas""
162.39.190.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : From "The Onion" : Calling it the most effective tool to : date in the War on Terror, the Pentagon : announced Monday that it had developed a new : chemical weapon called "ennui : gas," a nerve agent that overwhelms its : victims with sudden philosophical distress : over the meaningless tedium of human life : and a sinking sense that everything they : have ever accomplished ultimately ammounts : to dust. : The military assured Amnesty : International and other human-rights groups : that ennui gas causes no pain, save for the : pain of realizing that one has wasted his : life. : As proof, Pentagon representative Byron : Christie voluntarily inhaled a small amount : of ennui gas at a private press conference : last week. : "Because ennui gas is a nonpersistant : substance, it is highly probable that its : victims will someday feel whole again," : said Christie, suddenly furrowing his brow : and gripping his temples. "Then again, : no one is truly whole, are they? We are all : just pieces of flesh and bone masquerading : as life, and the world will go on without : me, my absence un-noticed, death as futile : as life. Pain hath no sting, and pleasure's : wreath no flower." : Christie then lay down behind the podium : and told members of the press to leave, : repeatedly stating that there is no point to : it all. : : Fastovsky, : : The point is love. What a person believes or : disbelieves is meaningless without love. : : If a person has no love in their heart then : they are for all intents and purposes dead. : Dead on the inside. : : I choose love. I choose life. There is more : than enough hate in the world already. Death : will come soon enough of its own accord. : : Living solely in the conditioned mind, the : way of ennui, is a shallow existence. Better : to look reality directly in the eye than : glance around for it in the shadows. : : From the first the whole and all of its : seeming parts are a unitive one. The part : finds itself when it finds the whole. As : above, so below. : : Butch : : Greetings butch, : : I would love to read your treatise on love : and how it might be manifested in your : behavior. : : in peace, : gar : gar, "Love the Source of reality with all of one's heart and mind. Love others even as one loves oneself." Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus. "The Love/Religion has no code or doctrine, only Love." Rumi 1st Corinthians Chapter 13: The Love Chapter http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2013 Tao Te Ching, Chapter 13: "One who loves the self equally with all under heaven may be entrusted with the world." http://www.terebess.hu/english/tao/yutang.html "All we need is love". John Lennon Butch

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Posted by gar on 5/10/2008, 6:11 am, in reply to "Love Gas"
74.47.80.X

: : gar, : : "Love the Source of reality with all of : one's heart and mind. Love others even as : one loves oneself." Matthew 22:37-40, : Jesus. : : "The Love/Religion has no code or : doctrine, only Love." Rumi : : 1st Corinthians Chapter 13: The Love Chapter : : : http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2013 : : Tao Te Ching, Chapter 13: "One who : loves the self equally with all under heaven : may be entrusted with the world." : : : http://www.terebess.hu/english/tao/yutang.html : : "All we need is love". John Lennon : : Butch : : Greetings Butch, The word love still keeps puzzling me. But what it does signify, is an emotional preference for something. In Wing-Tsit Chan book, The Way Of Lao Tzu, (Tao-Te Ching) the line in verse 13 says,"He who loves the world as his body may be entrusted with the empire." well, that seems to point to the ability to realize reality through undifferentiated eyes. So, the question is, if we sense that opposites are to be synthesized and harmonized how can there only be love? Is holding love up above all others, a false prophet. in peace, gar :

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Posted by Butch on 5/10/2008, 9:47 am, in reply to "Choosing one over the other"
162.39.190.X

--Previous Message-- : : gar, : : "Love the Source of reality with all of : one's heart and mind. Love others even as : one loves oneself." Matthew 22:37-40, : Jesus. : : "The Love/Religion has no code or : doctrine, only Love." Rumi : : 1st Corinthians Chapter 13: The Love Chapter : : : : http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2013 : : Tao Te Ching, Chapter 13: "One who : loves the self equally with all under heaven : may be entrusted with the world." : : : : http://www.terebess.hu/english/tao/yutang.html : : "All we need is love". John Lennon : : Butch : : Greetings Butch, : : The word love still keeps puzzling me. But : what it does signify, is an emotional : preference for something. : : In Wing-Tsit Chan book, The Way Of Lao Tzu, : (Tao-Te Ching) the line in verse 13 : says,"He who loves the world as his : body may be entrusted with the empire." : well, that seems to point to the ability to : realize reality through undifferentiated : eyes. : : So, the question is, if we sense that : opposites are to be synthesized and : harmonized how can there only be love? Is : holding love up above all others, a false : prophet. : : in peace, : gar : : gar, In my opinion, if we are going to idealize something, I suggest love. Beyond the this or that choice some think love is, love/hate, I would defer to my buddy Stu. "The pain and pleasure of our human paradox is not a problem to be solved, but an ENIGMA to be lived. We are that limitless Mystery, Love. And Love has no opposite." Stuart Davis Obviously Stu has read Aart Van der Leeuw's statement about such things. "The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced." Love is another word for that which is beyond naming. A more universal name than even God or Tao or Great Spirit in the Sky. God is Love. Tao is Love. Wu-wei is the expression of Love. Unconditional action. Conditional action leaves one in the infinite regress of theodicy. Why do bad things happen to good people? That is, I have been good so why don't only good things happen to me? Because we are not robots. Wu-wei is about the realization that the journey is the destination. Ends do not justify means. Each cause has its effect, each effect has its cause, an infinite regress. Wu-wei is action that is in accord with the way of the Tao. With the way of Love. Love even your enemies. Love is not a pragmatic consideration. It is the realization of the part in the whole, of the whole in the part, and the whole in the other. Mountains are again mountains. Totality is not numerically One, it is a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. A whole that is a unitive one. Manifold. Love is not a state of mind, it is a state of being. Butch

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Posted by Steve on 5/10/2008, 10:05 am, in reply to "Choosing one over the other"
69.140.59.X

: The word love still keeps puzzling me. But : what it does signify, is an emotional : preference for something. : : In Wing-Tsit Chan book, The Way Of Lao Tzu, : (Tao-Te Ching) the line in verse 13 : says,"He who loves the world as his : body may be entrusted with the empire." : well, that seems to point to the ability to : realize reality through undifferentiated : eyes. : : So, the question is, if we sense that : opposites are to be synthesized and : harmonized how can there only be love? Is : holding love up above all others, a false : prophet. : : in peace, : gar --------------------------- Thought-provoking post, gar. Whatever I cling to--love, hate, compassion, despair--in time becomes toxic and morphs into something else. What I'm left with is the confidence that in time everything will change, and complete confidence that that's okay. Steve

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Posted by wulf on 5/11/2008, 12:11 am, in reply to "Re: Choosing one over the other"
78.51.190.X

Butch Laozi's Dao includes everything happening in nature... and of course catastrophes like in Myanmar... i cannot say that such catastrophes are an expression of love. Do you?

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Posted by gar on 5/11/2008, 5:10 am, in reply to "Re: Choosing one over the other"
74.47.80.X

: gar, : : In my opinion, if we are going to idealize : something, I suggest love. : : Beyond the this or that choice some think : love is, love/hate, I would defer to my : buddy Stu. : : "The pain and pleasure of our human : paradox is not a problem to be solved, but : an ENIGMA to be lived. We are that limitless : Mystery, Love. And Love has no : opposite." Stuart Davis : : Obviously Stu has read Aart Van der Leeuw's : statement about such things. "The : mystery of life is not a problem to be : solved but a reality to be : experienced." : : Love is another word for that which is : beyond naming. A more universal name than : even God or Tao or Great Spirit in the Sky. : God is Love. Tao is Love. : : Wu-wei is the expression of Love. : Unconditional action. Conditional action : leaves one in the infinite regress of : theodicy. Why do bad things happen to good : people? That is, I have been good so why : don't only good things happen to me? Because : we are not robots. Wu-wei is about the : realization that the journey is the : destination. Ends do not justify means. Each : cause has its effect, each effect has its : cause, an infinite regress. Wu-wei is action : that is in accord with the way of the Tao. : With the way of Love. Love even your : enemies. Love is not a pragmatic : consideration. It is the realization of the : part in the whole, of the whole in the part, : and the whole in the other. Mountains are : again mountains. : : Totality is not numerically One, it is a : whole that is greater than the sum of its : parts. A whole that is a unitive one. : Manifold. : : Love is not a state of mind, it is a state : of being. : : Butch : Greetings Butch, Hum, the source of my confusion seems to lie in the use of the word, love where it is used to describe the nameless (wu-ming) and the named (yu-ming). So, the word love will reside in consciousness and non-being will reside in heaven. For gar anyway, this allows one to experience peace and harmony. in peace, gar

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Posted by Butch on 5/11/2008, 6:45 am, in reply to "Re: Choosing one over the other"
75.88.44.X

--Previous Message-- : : The word love still keeps puzzling me. But : what it does signify, is an emotional : preference for something. : : In Wing-Tsit Chan book, The Way Of Lao Tzu, : (Tao-Te Ching) the line in verse 13 : says,"He who loves the world as his : body may be entrusted with the empire." : well, that seems to point to the ability to : realize reality through undifferentiated : eyes. : : So, the question is, if we sense that : opposites are to be synthesized and : harmonized how can there only be love? Is : holding love up above all others, a false : prophet. : : in peace, : gar : : --------------------------- : : Thought-provoking post, gar. : : Whatever I cling to--love, hate, compassion, : despair--in time becomes toxic and morphs : into something else. : : What I'm left with is the confidence that in : time everything will change, and complete : confidence that that's okay. : : Steve : Steve, Time is a mental construct. As such, it is merely another this or that, past or future. It is the eternal now where refuge is found. Chuang Tzu could parse words with the best of them. And yet he laughed at words. So I will laugh at the word "Love". Ha ha ha. Ho ho ho. Hee hee hee. If gar wants to make a big deal out of a word then I still love him anyway. Love, like all words, are an attempt to point at something, not an attempt to be something. Words are symbollic. To look past words, past symbols, to reality as it is is what the sages are pointing to. Not at their words. And yet words are all they leave us. Thus the story goes that Lao Tzu was reluctant to write the Tao Te Ching. Words more often confuse than enlighten. And yet scholars swear by them. Ennui is another word for love. That something that is nothing that is everything. That something being said that cannot be said. To see better in the dark one looks out of the periphery of one's vision. And so it is with the heart's eye. More of a feeling than a fixed reality. A feeling that the sages say is possible to reside in, no matter the circumstances. All things are in a constant state of flux. It can be argued therefore that no thing exists for no thing exists long enough to actually be a thing. But the essential is not a thing for there is no thing to compare it to. All things have opposite things. Love is not a thing. It is a reality. A reality beyond this or that. The sage does not condemn the storm. But she does head to higher ground. Love is that higher ground. Meditation, paradoxically, is a master method of reaching that higher ground. Meditation is love. If it is not, then it is not meditation. Zen without love is not Zen. Zen is more art than science. Zen is a feeling that ultimately transcends method. The Tao is "like" love. A love that passeth understanding. A feeling. A feeling grounded not in any one part, but in the whole. A knowing beyond knowing. Our original nature. Butch

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Posted by Steve on 5/11/2008, 9:26 am, in reply to "Re: Choosing one over the other"
69.140.59.X

Hi Butch, Zhuangzi questioned whether he could be anywhere where there was no love, or anywhere where he was not loved. I'm guessing he didn't sense a need to 'master' anything in that regard. Steve

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Posted by Wayne L on 5/11/2008, 10:38 am, in reply to "Jesus was a black man, no Jesus was Batman, no wait, that was Bruce Wayne"
205.212.75.X

--Previous Message-- : Wayne, are you aware of the Druze of Lebanon : and Israel? : No Jesus being black or what ever color is without meaning.

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Posted by Lian Dao on 5/11/2008, 3:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Jesus was a black man, no Jesus was Batman, no wait, that was Bruce Wayne"
149.254.201.X

Sorry Wayne but in a round-a-bout kind of way i was trying to understand/guess as to your 'relationship' with Rabbi Yeshua the Nazarite. Not that that is any of my business. Some people would find the image of a black Christ blasphemous. Personally i find the image of the blue eyed, blond Nordic sun-god figure of the Christ as emblematic of the ingrained hypocrisy and denial of the Jewish sect of Xtianity. But i digress. . .Do you believe him to be the son of the god that appears in Judaic mythology?

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Posted by Butch on 5/11/2008, 10:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Choosing one over the other"
75.88.44.X

--Previous Message-- : Hi Butch, : : Zhuangzi questioned whether he could be : anywhere where there was no love, or : anywhere where he was not loved. I'm : guessing he didn't sense a need to 'master' : anything in that regard. : : Steve : Steve, To be a master is simply to get the feel of something, the hang of it. Such mastery cannot be forced. The master butcher no longer needs to sharpen his knife for he no longer cuts but merely follows the grain. To be a master of a tao is to follow the easy way of Chuang Tzu. To master a tao one merely follows the Tao. In golf, ball striking consistency is achieved when a consistent grip is realized. A grip in tune with the laws of physics. The inner hand's three inner fingers exert a slight pulling action towards the body and thus against the outer hand's inner three fingers that are themselves exerting a slight outward push towards the clubhead. This balances both the inner and the outer forces of centrifugal force and in turn balances out the swing--that is as long as this inner pull and outer push remain in dynamic balance. The butt of the club stays connected to the center of the body and the clubhead is allowed to flow around it. Pros and top amateurs make the golf swing look easy because they have to a degree mastered the fundamentals of the golf swing. When they are playing their best they are playing by feel. They simply see where they want the ball to go and then send it on its way with seemingly very little effort. And very little thought. Butch

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Posted by Wayne L on 5/12/2008, 10:32 am, in reply to "confusion of terms"
207.195.248.X

--Previous Message-- : Butch : Laozi's Dao includes everything happening in : nature... : and of course catastrophes like in : Myanmar... : i cannot say that such catastrophes are an : expression of love. : : Do you? : Nothing born of Nature is a expression of Love, Hate, Good or Bad, Right or Wrong, Good and Evil. Mother Nature does not Love. True, Undifferentiated, Absolute, Love is Unnatural, is Super Natural, beyond Nature, is not bias.

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Posted by jemimy on 5/12/2008, 8:59 pm, in reply to "Does the shot require an eight iron or a seven?"
12.208.120.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : Hi Butch, : : Zhuangzi questioned whether he could be : anywhere where there was no love, or : anywhere where he was not loved. I'm : guessing he didn't sense a need to 'master' : anything in that regard. : : Steve : : Steve, : : To be a master is simply to get the feel of : something, the hang of it. Such mastery : cannot be forced. The master butcher no : longer needs to sharpen his knife for he no : longer cuts but merely follows the grain. : : To be a master of a tao is to follow the : easy way of Chuang Tzu. To master a tao one : merely follows the Tao. : : In golf, ball striking consistency is : achieved when a consistent grip is realized. : A grip in tune with the laws of physics. The : inner hand's three inner fingers exert a : slight pulling action towards the body and : thus against the outer hand's inner three : fingers that are themselves exerting a : slight outward push towards the clubhead. : This balances both the inner and the outer : forces of centrifugal force and in turn : balances out the swing--that is as long as : this inner pull and outer push remain in : dynamic balance. The butt of the club stays : connected to the center of the body and the : clubhead is allowed to flow around it. Pros : and top amateurs make the golf swing look : easy because they have to a degree mastered : the fundamentals of the golf swing. When : they are playing their best they are playing : by feel. They simply see where they want the : ball to go and then send it on its way with : seemingly very little effort. And very : little thought. : : Butch : The master butcher never needs to sharpen his knife because it is never dull--the butcher attends to his tools. A perfect golf swing is the result of 10,000 golf swings--the master golfer knows his weaknesses. Mastery in the physical realm is not achieved by osmosis--it requires practice, preparation, and precision to achieve that “natural” mastery. Conversely, mastery in the esoteric, subjective realm of spiritual autodidacts only requires the neophyte to say, “Teach me…Master.” I know, slightly off subject. Please forgive the interruption. j

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Posted by wulf on 5/13/2008, 12:10 am, in reply to "Re: confusion of terms"
78.52.220.X

Human love can be unnatural- it can be natural too. Thats the human freedom- Humans can be in line with dao by following... Humans can be in disharmony with dao by will... Dao includes human love Human love does not represent Dao in any case Human has to floate with earth earth has to floate with heaven heaven has to floate with dao dao follows its subtle nature

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Posted by Steve on 5/13/2008, 9:51 am, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
69.140.59.X

: The master butcher never needs to sharpen : his knife because it is never dull--the : butcher attends to his tools. A perfect golf : swing is the result of 10,000 golf : swings--the master golfer knows his : weaknesses. : : Mastery in the physical realm is not : achieved by osmosis--it requires practice, : preparation, and precision to achieve that : “natural” mastery. Conversely, mastery : in the esoteric, subjective realm of : spiritual autodidacts only requires the : neophyte to say, “Teach me…Master.” : : I know, slightly off subject. Please forgive : the interruption. : : j ------------------------- Nothing is ever off-topic here. Your observations are appreciated. I put it this way: If you sense an 'otherness' that coexists with, or is superimposed on, this world of ours, then the game is over. You've won. You're home. You've realized as much as any human being on the planet will ever realize. If after that, you feel the need to seek some esoteric and rarefied spiritual 'truth,' that's fine and dandy. You're still home, playing 'hide and seek' with yourself. We all play the game to one extent or the other. The game is fun and apparently useful--otherwise why would we play it. Steve

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Posted by Steve on 5/13/2008, 10:12 am, in reply to "Re: confusion of terms"
69.140.59.X

: Human love can be unnatural- : it can be natural too. : Thats the human freedom- : Humans can be in line with dao by : following... : Humans can be in disharmony with dao by : will... : Dao includes human love : Human love does not represent Dao in any : case : : Human has to floate with earth : earth has to floate with heaven : heaven has to floate with dao : dao follows its subtle nature ----------------- Two questions: (1) What do you mean by "human love can be unnatural"? (2) Can you give an example of "humans can be in disharmony with dao by will"?

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Posted by jemimy on 5/13/2008, 7:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
12.208.120.X

--Previous Message-- : The master butcher never needs to sharpen : his knife because it is never dull--the : butcher attends to his tools. A perfect golf : swing is the result of 10,000 golf : swings--the master golfer knows his : weaknesses. : : Mastery in the physical realm is not : achieved by osmosis--it requires practice, : preparation, and precision to achieve that : “natural” mastery. Conversely, mastery : in the esoteric, subjective realm of : spiritual autodidacts only requires the : neophyte to say, “Teach me…Master.” : : I know, slightly off subject. Please forgive : the interruption. : : j : : ------------------------- : : Nothing is ever off-topic here. Your : observations are appreciated. : : I put it this way: If you sense an : 'otherness' that coexists with, or is : superimposed on, this world of ours, then : the game is over. You've won. You're home. : You've realized as much as any human being : on the planet will ever realize. : : If after that, you feel the need to seek : some esoteric and rarefied spiritual : 'truth,' that's fine and dandy. You're : still home, playing 'hide and seek' with : yourself. : : We all play the game to one extent or the : other. The game is fun and apparently : useful--otherwise why would we play it. : : Steve : Thanks, Steve. I have lurked here for years but I rarely post. My life keeps me very busy and I do not enjoy contending. Nina described me once as a provocateur. Perhaps she was right. I commented this time because Butch, in my opinion, works better as a catalyst than as a font of wisdom. I infer from your reference to an “otherness” which “coexists with, or is superimposed on, this world of ours” that you see natural forces as somehow separated, or perhaps layered--an existence stratum. That is not my understanding of the wholeness in which we dwell. When I sense an “otherness,” I switch to soft drinks. Have I misunderstood your comment? I am a pragmatist. I eschew esotericism because it is inherently exclusionary. Further, I have no notion of what a “spiritual truth” might be. Yes, we play the game. For some it is an exchange of ideas. For many the game is an assertion of patently subjective, egocentric concepts promulgated as truth. However, as they say, I could be wrong. j

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Posted by Butch on 5/13/2008, 8:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
75.88.44.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : The master butcher never needs to sharpen : his knife because it is never dull--the : butcher attends to his tools. A perfect golf : swing is the result of 10,000 golf : swings--the master golfer knows his : weaknesses. : : Mastery in the physical realm is not : achieved by osmosis--it requires practice, : preparation, and precision to achieve that : “natural” mastery. Conversely, mastery : in the esoteric, subjective realm of : spiritual autodidacts only requires the : neophyte to say, “Teach me…Master.” : : I know, slightly off subject. Please forgive : the interruption. : : j : : ------------------------- : : Nothing is ever off-topic here. Your : observations are appreciated. : : I put it this way: If you sense an : 'otherness' that coexists with, or is : superimposed on, this world of ours, then : the game is over. You've won. You're home. : You've realized as much as any human being : on the planet will ever realize. : : If after that, you feel the need to seek : some esoteric and rarefied spiritual : 'truth,' that's fine and dandy. You're : still home, playing 'hide and seek' with : yourself. : : We all play the game to one extent or the : other. The game is fun and apparently : useful--otherwise why would we play it. : : Steve : : : : Thanks, Steve. I have lurked here for years : but I rarely post. My life keeps me very : busy and I do not enjoy contending. : : Nina described me once as a provocateur. : Perhaps she was right. I commented this time : because Butch, in my opinion, works better : as a catalyst than as a font of wisdom. : : I infer from your reference to an : “otherness” which “coexists with, or : is superimposed on, this world of ours” : that you see natural forces as somehow : separated, or perhaps layered--an existence : stratum. That is not my understanding of the : wholeness in which we dwell. When I sense an : “otherness,” I switch to soft drinks. : : Have I misunderstood your comment? : : I am a pragmatist. I eschew esotericism : because it is inherently exclusionary. : Further, I have no notion of what a : “spiritual truth” might be. : : Yes, we play the game. For some it is an : exchange of ideas. For many the game is an : assertion of patently subjective, egocentric : concepts promulgated as truth. : : However, as they say, I could be wrong. : : j : : j, Yes, I do play the part of catalyst at times. Sometimes even consciously. I guess I get bored at times. As far as games go, I don't know what you and Steve are talking about... ok, again you've got me. Maybe you should shut up for a year or so little time to spare. Lucky for me I rarely wear a clock. er, I mean watch. See what I mean. Speaking of the subjective, a subject you have brought up so don't complain to me 'cause I am just doing my job. You speak of subjective as if it is some sort of conspiracy or mortal sin. Left-brainer you be. To deny subjective truth is just as false as claiming absolute subjective truth. That is, yes, I have a subjective opinion, but what separates me from some is that I also recognize the subjectiveness of "others" as well. Mountains are again mountains. Lot of mountains around these parts. Perhaps I have more regard for you than you have for yourself. As far as egos go mine comes and goes as do all seemingly separate things. But my ego likes to think it doesn't come 'round as much as it used to. My ego is more refined than it once was. Yes it is. I SAID IT IS. ok, I said it is. See, much more refined than it once was 'cause this is twice upon a time. What, me story? rat could be wrong. I don't know you well enough to know if you could be wrong or not. Steve is wrong all the time. He is right that way. Butch

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Posted by Chris on 5/13/2008, 10:42 pm, in reply to ""Ennui Gas""
163.189.217.X

--Previous Message-- : From "The Onion" : Calling it the most effective tool to : date in the War on Terror, the Pentagon : announced Monday that it had developed a new : chemical weapon called "ennui : gas," a nerve agent that overwhelms its : victims with sudden philosophical distress : over the meaningless tedium of human life : and a sinking sense that everything they : have ever accomplished ultimately ammounts : to dust. : The military assured Amnesty : International and other human-rights groups : that ennui gas causes no pain, save for the : pain of realizing that one has wasted his : life. : As proof, Pentagon representative Byron : Christie voluntarily inhaled a small amount : of ennui gas at a private press conference : last week. : "Because ennui gas is a nonpersistant : substance, it is highly probable that its : victims will someday feel whole again," : said Christie, suddenly furrowing his brow : and gripping his temples. "Then again, : no one is truly whole, are they? We are all : just pieces of flesh and bone masquerading : as life, and the world will go on without : me, my absence un-noticed, death as futile : as life. Pain hath no sting, and pleasure's : wreath no flower." : Christie then lay down behind the podium : and told members of the press to leave, : repeatedly stating that there is no point to : it all. : Where can I get some?

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Posted by wulf on 5/14/2008, 6:41 am, in reply to "Re: confusion of terms"
78.51.144.X

: Two questions: : : (1) What do you mean by "human love : can be unnatural"? : : (2) Can you give an example of "humans : can be in disharmony with dao by will"? : unnatural - natural - do we have a tool for differentiating? we feel something as naturally if it is in line with the flow of circumstances... more intuitionally...than rationally it makes no sense to give examples - what i feel to be unnatural love - understanding is dependent on knowing the circumstances... shuowen gives an fascinating explanation for 'good' chang2 yan3 qie it is swinging in the flow -- if ever you have felt the difference between of being in the flow and acting just according a personal benefit then there will be a window for understanding... shan4 yan3

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Posted by Butch on 5/14/2008, 7:55 am, in reply to "Re: "Ennui Gas""
71.30.139.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : From "The Onion" : Calling it the most effective tool to : date in the War on Terror, the Pentagon : announced Monday that it had developed a new : chemical weapon called "ennui : gas," a nerve agent that overwhelms its : victims with sudden philosophical distress : over the meaningless tedium of human life : and a sinking sense that everything they : have ever accomplished ultimately ammounts : to dust. : The military assured Amnesty : International and other human-rights groups : that ennui gas causes no pain, save for the : pain of realizing that one has wasted his : life. : As proof, Pentagon representative Byron : Christie voluntarily inhaled a small amount : of ennui gas at a private press conference : last week. : "Because ennui gas is a nonpersistant : substance, it is highly probable that its : victims will someday feel whole again," : said Christie, suddenly furrowing his brow : and gripping his temples. "Then again, : no one is truly whole, are they? We are all : just pieces of flesh and bone masquerading : as life, and the world will go on without : me, my absence un-noticed, death as futile : as life. Pain hath no sting, and pleasure's : wreath no flower." : Christie then lay down behind the podium : and told members of the press to leave, : repeatedly stating that there is no point to : it all. : : : Where can I get some? : :

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Posted by Butch on 5/14/2008, 8:03 am, in reply to "Re: "Ennui Gas""
71.30.139.X

--Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : From "The Onion" : Calling it the most effective tool to : date in the War on Terror, the Pentagon : announced Monday that it had developed a new : chemical weapon called "ennui : gas," a nerve agent that overwhelms its : victims with sudden philosophical distress : over the meaningless tedium of human life : and a sinking sense that everything they : have ever accomplished ultimately ammounts : to dust. : The military assured Amnesty : International and other human-rights groups : that ennui gas causes no pain, save for the : pain of realizing that one has wasted his : life. : As proof, Pentagon representative Byron : Christie voluntarily inhaled a small amount : of ennui gas at a private press conference : last week. : "Because ennui gas is a nonpersistant : substance, it is highly probable that its : victims will someday feel whole again," : said Christie, suddenly furrowing his brow : and gripping his temples. "Then again, : no one is truly whole, are they? We are all : just pieces of flesh and bone masquerading : as life, and the world will go on without : me, my absence un-noticed, death as futile : as life. Pain hath no sting, and pleasure's : wreath no flower." : Christie then lay down behind the podium : and told members of the press to leave, : repeatedly stating that there is no point to : it all. : : : Where can I get some? : : Chris, You can get Ennui Gas on Ebay--very late at night. You'll have to figure out which night for yourself. Other than the ususal suspects; loss of libido, frequent urination, liver damage, loss of eyesight, loss of hearing, increased chance of stroke--the usual warnings that accompany FDA approved drugs there is one side effect no one should take lightly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_3Yn6Eh4bE Butch

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Posted by Steve on 5/14/2008, 9:57 am, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
69.140.59.X

: Nothing is ever off-topic here. Your : observations are appreciated. : : I put it this way: If you sense an : 'otherness' that coexists with, or is : superimposed on, this world of ours, then : the game is over. You've won. You're home. : You've realized as much as any human being : on the planet will ever realize. : : If after that, you feel the need to seek : some esoteric and rarefied spiritual : 'truth,' that's fine and dandy. You're : still home, playing 'hide and seek' with : yourself. : : We all play the game to one extent or the : other. The game is fun and apparently : useful--otherwise why would we play it. : : Steve ------------------ : Thanks, Steve. I have lurked here for years : but I rarely post. My life keeps me very : busy and I do not enjoy contending. : : Nina described me once as a provocateur. : Perhaps she was right. I commented this time : because Butch, in my opinion, works better : as a catalyst than as a font of wisdom. : : I infer from your reference to an : “otherness” which “coexists with, or : is superimposed on, this world of ours” : that you see natural forces as somehow : separated, or perhaps layered--an existence : stratum. That is not my understanding of the : wholeness in which we dwell. When I sense an : “otherness,” I switch to soft drinks. : : Have I misunderstood your comment? : : I am a pragmatist. I eschew esotericism : because it is inherently exclusionary. : Further, I have no notion of what a : “spiritual truth” might be. : : Yes, we play the game. For some it is an : exchange of ideas. For many the game is an : assertion of patently subjective, egocentric : concepts promulgated as truth. : : However, as they say, I could be wrong. : : j -------------------- 'Otherness' is one of those loaded words that will always mean something different to user and hearer. For me it points to 'mystery,' as I understand that concept in Laozi Chapter One. The wholeness in which I dwell is comprised of what I see and experience outright (manifestation) and what I sense in my bones (mystery). These have the same source but appear to me as two things. So, there is happiness in life and the placing of happiness in perspective. Misery, and the placing of misery in perspective. Two ways of seeing the same thing, at the same time. Thanks for the exchange, jemimy.

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Posted by Steve on 5/14/2008, 10:48 am, in reply to "Re: confusion of terms"
69.140.59.X

: Two questions: : : (1) What do you mean by "human love : can be unnatural"? : : (2) Can you give an example of "humans : can be in disharmony with dao by will"? ------------------ : unnatural - natural - do we have a tool for : differentiating? : we feel something as naturally if it is in : line with the flow of circumstances... : more intuitionally...than rationally : it makes no sense to give examples - what i : feel to be unnatural love - understanding is : dependent on knowing the circumstances... : shuowen gives an fascinating explanation for : 'good' : chang2 yan3 qie : it is swinging in the flow : -- : if ever you have felt the difference between : of being in the flow and acting just : according a personal benefit then there will : be a window for understanding... -------------------- It seems to me that there you are assigning 'goodness' to being 'like the Dao' (in the flow) and 'badness' to acting solely for personal benefit (not in the flow). It may be useful for me to tend this way or that, but that has nothing to do with my being 'in the flow' with the Dao. Saying that you are 'out of the flow' of the Dao is like saying that your nose is 'out of the flow' of your face. It's all in the eye of the beholder, I think.

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Posted by Chris on 5/14/2008, 7:41 pm, in reply to "WARNING!"
163.189.217.X

: : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_3Yn6Eh4bE : : Butch : Tempting as that is, I'll stick to frequent flatulence.

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Posted by jemimy on 5/14/2008, 8:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
12.208.120.X

--Previous Message-- : : Yes, I do play the part of catalyst at : times. Sometimes even consciously. I guess I : get bored at times. : : As far as games go, I don't know what you : and Steve are talking about... ok, again : you've got me. Maybe you should shut up for : a year or so little time to spare. Lucky for : me I rarely wear a clock. er, I mean watch. : See what I mean. : : Speaking of the subjective, a subject you : have brought up so don't complain to me : 'cause I am just doing my job. You speak of : subjective as if it is some sort of : conspiracy or mortal sin. Left-brainer you : be. To deny subjective truth is just as : false as claiming absolute subjective truth. : That is, yes, I have a subjective opinion, : but what separates me from some is that I : also recognize the subjectiveness of : "others" as well. Mountains are : again mountains. Lot of mountains around : these parts. Perhaps I have more regard for : you than you have for yourself. : : As far as egos go mine comes and goes as do : all seemingly separate things. But my ego : likes to think it doesn't come 'round as : much as it used to. My ego is more refined : than it once was. Yes it is. I SAID IT IS. : ok, I said it is. See, much more refined : than it once was 'cause this is twice upon a : time. What, me story? : : rat could be wrong. I don't know you well : enough to know if you could be wrong or not. : Steve is wrong all the time. He is right : that way. : : Butch : Butch, I didn’t mention clocks, watches, or time. I enjoy life, I am pretty good at it, but I prefer life in the everyday sense to life in the “internet chat room” sense. Your post caught me at a weak moment. Discussing subjectivity is a semantic minefield. At the risk of being hoist with my own petard I contend this: subjective opinions are neither “conspiracy” nor “mortal sin--they are conversationally vacant. That you, or anyone, feel a certain way about a particular concept based on anecdotal information, personal prejudice, or a “gut” feeling is not likely to be particularly valuable to anyone that is not you. The lexicon of personal, spiritual experience is imprecise and varies by milieu. You may say you stubbed a toe or bumped an elbow and engender a sympathetic response from me based on a common human ability to feel vicariously the physical discomfort of another human. However, when you say you feel a oneness with the universe or a plurality with the multiverse I am at a loss. Subjectivity is, of course, the antonym of objectivity. Subjectivity is based on feelings, or personal opinions instead of external, empirical, or historical evidence. Objectivity is not. I prefer the latter. Ego has, in the past, been much discussed here. I have ego enough to bathe regularly. Beyond that, I couldn’t say. Yes, Rat could be wrong. Steve, of course, is wrong all the time…that’s why he’s called “Steve.” If you were less Butch you would be correct more often. j

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Posted by jemimy on 5/14/2008, 10:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
12.208.120.X

--Previous Message-- : : 'Otherness' is one of those loaded words : that will always mean something different to : user and hearer. For me it points to : 'mystery,' as I understand that concept in : Laozi Chapter One. : : The wholeness in which I dwell is comprised : of what I see and experience outright : (manifestation) and what I sense in my bones : (mystery). These have the same source but : appear to me as two things. : : So, there is happiness in life and the : placing of happiness in perspective. : Misery, and the placing of misery in : perspective. Two ways of seeing the same : thing, at the same time. : : Thanks for the exchange, jemimy. : The Laozi offers numerous metaphors to suggest that which one may refer to as the originator of eternity, which is simultaneously oxymoronic and incomprehensible and can be no other way and still be what it is, was, or may become. Incomprehensible but likely no more mystical than what causes gravity. I cannot speak for what you sense in your bones because they are your bones. Mine don’t work that way. Perhaps yours function as a cosmic antenna. Yes, happiness and misery are petals on the same flower. Butch says you are always wrong and, you are welcome. j

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Posted by gar on 5/15/2008, 5:42 am, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
70.100.196.X

--Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : : Yes, I do play the part of catalyst at : times. Sometimes even consciously. I guess I : get bored at times. : : As far as games go, I don't know what you : and Steve are talking about... ok, again : you've got me. Maybe you should shut up for : a year or so little time to spare. Lucky for : me I rarely wear a clock. er, I mean watch. : See what I mean. : : Speaking of the subjective, a subject you : have brought up so don't complain to me : 'cause I am just doing my job. You speak of : subjective as if it is some sort of : conspiracy or mortal sin. Left-brainer you : be. To deny subjective truth is just as : false as claiming absolute subjective truth. : That is, yes, I have a subjective opinion, : but what separates me from some is that I : also recognize the subjectiveness of : "others" as well. Mountains are : again mountains. Lot of mountains around : these parts. Perhaps I have more regard for : you than you have for yourself. : : As far as egos go mine comes and goes as do : all seemingly separate things. But my ego : likes to think it doesn't come 'round as : much as it used to. My ego is more refined : than it once was. Yes it is. I SAID IT IS. : ok, I said it is. See, much more refined : than it once was 'cause this is twice upon a : time. What, me story? : : rat could be wrong. I don't know you well : enough to know if you could be wrong or not. : Steve is wrong all the time. He is right : that way. : : Butch : : : Butch, I didn’t mention clocks, watches, : or time. I enjoy life, I am pretty good at : it, but I prefer life in the everyday sense : to life in the “internet chat room” : sense. Your post caught me at a weak moment. : : Discussing subjectivity is a semantic : minefield. At the risk of being hoist with : my own petard I contend this: subjective : opinions are neither “conspiracy” nor : “mortal sin--they are conversationally : vacant. That you, or anyone, feel a certain : way about a particular concept based on : anecdotal information, personal prejudice, : or a “gut” feeling is not likely to be : particularly valuable to anyone that is not : you. The lexicon of personal, spiritual : experience is imprecise and varies by : milieu. : : You may say you stubbed a toe or bumped an : elbow and engender a sympathetic response : from me based on a common human ability to : feel vicariously the physical discomfort of : another human. However, when you say you : feel a oneness with the universe or a : plurality with the multiverse I am at a : loss. : : Subjectivity is, of course, the antonym of : objectivity. Subjectivity is based on : feelings, or personal opinions instead of : external, empirical, or historical evidence. : Objectivity is not. I prefer the latter. : : Ego has, in the past, been much discussed : here. I have ego enough to bathe regularly. : Beyond that, I couldn’t say. : : Yes, Rat could be wrong. Steve, of course, : is wrong all the time…that’s why he’s : called “Steve.” If you were less Butch : you would be correct more often. : : : j : : Greetings j If, in my response to your post, a sense of non-understanding appears, it's because of your intellectual style of writing which i have difficulty comprehending. You appear to me as a bright individual that lives in a world of logic and observable nuance. Gar is curious about your statement, " Discussing subjectivity is a semantic minefield." because that seems what humans do. But, you would be great in a engineering meeting. However, if we were sitting around a campfire discussing what has been seemily revealed with introspection your comments would be subjective, would they not? Please keep posting, jemimy, your thoughts are very stimulating. in peace, gar : :

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Posted by Lian Dao on 5/15/2008, 8:05 am, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
149.254.201.X

Excellent J! That is essentially what i've saying all along. At least i think it is. . .

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Posted by Steve on 5/15/2008, 8:50 am, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
69.140.59.X

: Butch, I didn’t mention clocks, watches, : or time. I enjoy life, I am pretty good at : it, but I prefer life in the everyday sense : to life in the “internet chat room” : sense. Your post caught me at a weak moment. : : Discussing subjectivity is a semantic : minefield. At the risk of being hoist with : my own petard I contend this: subjective : opinions are neither “conspiracy” nor : “mortal sin--they are conversationally : vacant. That you, or anyone, feel a certain : way about a particular concept based on : anecdotal information, personal prejudice, : or a “gut” feeling is not likely to be : particularly valuable to anyone that is not : you. The lexicon of personal, spiritual : experience is imprecise and varies by : milieu. : : You may say you stubbed a toe or bumped an : elbow and engender a sympathetic response : from me based on a common human ability to : feel vicariously the physical discomfort of : another human. However, when you say you : feel a oneness with the universe or a : plurality with the multiverse I am at a : loss. : : Subjectivity is, of course, the antonym of : objectivity. Subjectivity is based on : feelings, or personal opinions instead of : external, empirical, or historical evidence. : Objectivity is not. I prefer the latter. : : Ego has, in the past, been much discussed : here. I have ego enough to bathe regularly. : Beyond that, I couldn’t say. : : Yes, Rat could be wrong. Steve, of course, : is wrong all the time…that’s why he’s : called “Steve.” If you were less Butch : you would be correct more often. --------------------- "That you, or anyone, feel a certain way about a particular concept based on anecdotal information, personal prejudice, or a "gut" feeling is not likely to be particularly valuable to anyone that is not you." Oh well...so much for all the artwork and books of poetry. Subjective rubbish. Not likely to be valuable to anyone but the artist. "The lexicon of personal, spiritual experience is imprecise and varies by milieu." Yes. That's one reason people enjoy taking about their experiences. Makes them feel less lonely. More connected. The imprecision and stumbling around for words is what separates humans from tree frogs. Tree frogs are nice, but I prefer being human.

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Posted by rat gas on 5/15/2008, 8:54 am, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
76.236.64.X

Hi J "Subjectivity is based on feelings, or personal opinions instead of external, empirical, or historical evidence. Objectivity is not. I prefer the latter." You might be right. In my opinion, however, there is no warrant for claiming that any objective external evidence exists for producing an accurate characterization of any phenomenon, other than an experiencer reporting to itself that it is aware of an experience. My position, I suspect, is call Xu = empty of ontological claims. love, rat

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Posted by jemimy on 5/15/2008, 7:43 pm, in reply to "Mr. Data"
12.208.120.X

--Previous Message-- : : Greetings j : : If, in my response to your post, a sense of : non-understanding appears, it's because of : your intellectual style of writing which i : have difficulty comprehending. You appear to : me as a bright individual that lives in a : world of logic and observable nuance. : : Gar is curious about your statement, " : Discussing subjectivity is a semantic : minefield." because that seems what : humans do. But, you would be great in a : engineering meeting. However, if we were : sitting around a campfire discussing what : has been seemily revealed with introspection : your comments would be subjective, would : they not? : : Please keep posting, jemimy, your thoughts : are very stimulating. : : in peace, : gar : : Jem only pawn in game of life but thanks for the compliment. You seem bright, too. Is the “world of logic and observable nuance” foreign to you? Your disdain for hard science, and the people who toil in those fields, is surprising. Yogis, rabbis, priests, and mullahs did not create the “internets.” The world of logic and observable nuance (excluding the creators of Windows Vista, of course) provided us with this forum. Words mean stuff, Gar. Re-read your middle graph—that’s why it’s a minefield. Imprecise language fosters confusion. Discussing subjectivity is not the same as discussing the subjective revelations we may have experience while contemplating our places in the cosmos. Touchy-feely, campfire kumbayas hold no allure, not even if it’s your happy, s’more-stained face through the smoke. I believe Socrates was correct, and apparently so do you, but introspection ad nauseum is futile. At some point, we must live outside our head. j :

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Posted by jemimy on 5/15/2008, 9:03 pm, in reply to "Re: Ignore the distractions--keep your head in the game."
12.208.120.X

--Previous Message-- : : "That you, or anyone, feel a certain : way about a particular concept based on : anecdotal information, personal prejudice, : or a "gut" feeling is not likely : to be particularly valuable to anyone that : is not you." : : Oh well...so much for all the artwork and : books of poetry. Subjective rubbish. Not : likely to be valuable to anyone but the : artist. : : "The lexicon of personal, spiritual : experience is imprecise and varies by : milieu." : : Yes. That's one reason people enjoy taking : about their experiences. Makes them feel : less lonely. More connected. : : The imprecision and stumbling around for : words is what separates humans from tree : frogs. Tree frogs are nice, but I prefer : being human. : : Steve, artistic expressions of subjective concepts are ideas rendered concrete. This, of course, is the point. Wistful recollections of transcendent moments are not as accessible. It is easier to appreciate a graphic representation of a “numinous thread” than it is a description of a “numinous thread.” The trouble comes when we have to agree on what a “numinous thread” looks like. More connected to what? If people stopped talking and started listening, they might see the broad path opening before them. However, ego steers the head: “I” feel lonely; “I” feel disconnected; “I” need; “I” want; “I” deserve…we are a culture consumed by our desires. Tree frogs may have a better sense of their place in the world than you or your precious humans - how could I know? j

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Posted by jemimy on 5/15/2008, 9:26 pm, in reply to "Wall watching"
12.208.120.X

--Previous Message-- : Excellent J! That is essentially what i've : saying all along. At least i think it is. . : . : Spring comes to Lian Dao! Mulberries bloom on bare limbs foreshadowing June.

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Posted by jemimy on 5/15/2008, 9:41 pm, in reply to "xu = empty of claims"
12.208.120.X

--Previous Message-- : Hi J : : "Subjectivity is based on feelings, or : personal opinions instead of external, : empirical, or historical evidence. : Objectivity is not. I prefer the : latter." : : You might be right. : : In my opinion, however, there is no warrant : for claiming that any objective external : evidence exists for producing an accurate : characterization of any phenomenon, other : than an experiencer reporting to itself that : it is aware of an experience. : : My position, I suspect, is call Xu = empty : of ontological claims. : : love, : rat : : Tears poured down my face as I read your note, I wept. My wife said “Oh. Jem?”

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Posted by Lian Dao on 5/16/2008, 1:32 am, in reply to "Re: Wall watching"
149.254.201.X

: : : Spring comes to Lian Dao! : Mulberries bloom on bare limbs : foreshadowing June. : At long last, a poet in our midst.

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Posted by gar on 5/16/2008, 6:05 am, in reply to "Re: Mr. Data"
70.100.196.X

: : Jem only pawn in game of life but thanks for : the compliment. You seem bright, too. : : Is the “world of logic and observable : nuance” foreign to you? Your disdain for : hard science, and the people who toil in : those fields, is surprising. Yogis, rabbis, : priests, and mullahs did not create the : “internets.” The world of logic and : observable nuance (excluding the creators of : Windows Vista, of course) provided us with : this forum. : : Words mean stuff, Gar. Re-read your middle : graph—that’s why it’s a minefield. : Imprecise language fosters confusion. : Discussing subje