[ Tao Speaks ]

pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by josef on 1/15/2008, 2:34 pm 24.32.223.X http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/01/15/o.leash.on.life/index.html  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Fastovsky on 1/15/2008, 4:56 pm, in reply to "pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 66.15.76.X "When I stop trying to control my mind - that verbose, paranoic old storyteller - my thoughts become clear and more intelligent." ... And this runs directly counter to much "ancient wisdom!" The "Diamond Sutra" begings by asking, amost other things, "how can I control my mind?" Indeed, meditation techniques are basically about controlling the mind. And it's not passive control, it's sitting on the mind and whipping it into shape!  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Chris on 1/15/2008, 5:23 pm, in reply to "pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 163.189.217.X --Previous Message-- : : http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/01/15/o.leash.on.life/index.html : The Tao of Oprah... wow. Does it extend to ignoring her book club?  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Steve on 1/15/2008, 6:22 pm, in reply to "pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 69.140.59.X "Psychologists who subscribe to acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) call "clean" pain what we feel when something hurtful happens to us."Dirty" pain is the result of our thoughts about how wrong this is, how it proves we--and life--are bad. The two kinds of suffering occupy different sections of the brain: One part simply registers events, while another creates a continuous stream of thoughts about those events." *** Hmm. Seems to assume some form of innate schizophrenia in the humans... (...yeah! Let's teach 'em they're born sick! That'll cure 'em!) lol  Post a Response

Re: Civilized Insanuty Posted by Fastovsky on 1/15/2008, 8:24 pm, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 66.15.76.X : (...yeah! Let's teach 'em they're born : sick! That'll cure 'em!) : Sad to say, but there's a LOT of truth in that. We are, after all, animals, and many of our "natural" reactions to the world about us are more based on the claw and fang than "civilization." It is considered "sane" to go off to war and to kill as many of the enemy as possible, and the "best" brains of society are ever inventing newer technologies of death. This is not an abberation. It is human, all too human. Alas, beyond this military-industrial version of "sanity," there is no model of a higher "sanity" that cannot and will not be criticized and rejected by some large segment of humanity. Jesus? Buddha? Laozi? Marx? Mao? Bush? The cure may just be another version of the delusion. We're all just thrown into this life without a guide book, and we must just do as best we can.  Post a Response

Re: Civilized Insanuty Posted by Chris on 1/15/2008, 9:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Civilized Insanuty" 163.189.217.X : We are, after all, animals, and many of our : "natural" reactions to the world : about us are : more based on the claw and fang than : "civilization." : It is considered "sane" to go off : to war and to kill as many of the enemy as : possible, and the "best" brains of : society are ever inventing newer : technologies of death. This is not an : abberation. It is human, all too human. There cannot be war without also there being an expectation of exclusive gain by the architects of war. Pity the soldier who thinks he fights for virtuous reasons. Though many need no reason at all.  Post a Response

Re: Civilized Insanuty Posted by Fastovsky on 1/15/2008, 10:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Civilized Insanuty" 66.15.76.X : : There cannot be war without also there being : an expectation of exclusive gain by the : architects of war. : : Pity the soldier who thinks he fights for : virtuous reasons. Though many need no reason : at all. : And the gains can be trivial. Sometimes it's just for the opportunity to have one's politicians meet in a city nearer to the belligerants than the former capital was. I used to read a lot of history. Again and again, i read of "a column of two thousand men advancing into a withering hail of bullets (or arrows or spears or stones)." Finally my credulity snapped - what could possibly be more stupid than advancing into a withering hail of bullets (or arrows or stones)? But it seems to be deeply imbedded in human nature, because it happens again and again, even though the "war to end all wars" was fought and won nearly 100 years ago. And, despite 5,000 years of this insanity, there seems to be no shortage of men and women willing to advance into a withering hail of bullets, laser beams, and atomic radiation to kill and die for God, or Country, or just the chance to pay their taxes to politicians in a city closer at hand. And, not only is it somehow considered to be "sane," but it is also "noble."  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by josef on 1/16/2008, 8:09 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : And this runs directly counter to much : "ancient wisdom!" : The "Diamond Sutra" begings by : asking, amost other things, "how can I : control my mind?" Indeed, meditation : techniques are basically about controlling : the mind. And it's not passive control, it's : sitting on the mind and whipping it into : shape! I disagree, Fastovsky, that's exactly what the old wisdom is about. It's not about "sitting on the mind and whipping it into shape", but being aware of what mind is doing, observing the activity of thought, and in that state of bare, direct attention thoughts aren't being churned out, mind settles and falls quiet naturally, effortlessly.  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Steve on 1/16/2008, 8:56 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 69.140.59.X : ...that's exactly what : the old wisdom is about. It's not about : "sitting on the mind and whipping it : into shape", but being aware of what : mind is doing, observing the activity of : thought, and in that state of bare, direct : attention thoughts aren't being churned out, : mind settles and falls quiet naturally, : effortlessly. -------------- The matter of using mind to settle mind...heh, fun to try and wrap one's mind around that baby. The awareness you seek either comes or it does not. I don't think this is predestination or karmic destiny; it's more subtle than that. With powerful biological influences and ramifications. That at some point in your past, josef, you alighted on meditative practice was no accident. Your mind was already on a path toward achieving something you understood to be desirable, and you gravitated toward a means to achieve your goal. You cannot put yourself, or be put, on the path. Useless, for example, to say to someone "You should meditate" or "You should seek clarity" or even "You should seek peace." Either it happens or it does not. Imo. Steve  Post a Response

true mind, false mind Posted by Lian Dao on 1/16/2008, 9:20 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 78.144.135.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : And this runs directly counter to much : "ancient wisdom!" : The "Diamond Sutra" begings by : asking, amost other things, "how can I : control my mind?" Indeed, meditation : techniques are basically about controlling : the mind. And it's not passive control, it's : sitting on the mind and whipping it into : shape! : : I disagree, Fastovsky, that's exactly what : the old wisdom is about. It's not about : "sitting on the mind and whipping it : into shape", but being aware of what : mind is doing, observing the activity of : thought, and in that state of bare, direct : attention thoughts aren't being churned out, : mind settles and falls quiet naturally, : effortlessly. : The problem inherent in your system Josef is, are you simply thinking about not thinking the thoughts you are thinking? If so then perhaps there is a conditional distinction, that being of a dualistic nature, between your mind, or individual, cognitive thought and Mind as such? Amitofo!  Post a Response

conditional discharge Posted by Lian Dao on 1/16/2008, 9:26 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 78.144.135.X : The matter of using mind to settle : mind...heh, fun to try and wrap one's mind : around that baby. : The awareness you seek either comes or it : does not. I don't think this is : predestination or karmic destiny; it's more : subtle than that. With powerful biological : influences and ramifications. Steve, "Powerful biological influences and ramifications"? Oh you mean Karma? : : That at some point in your past, josef, you : alighted on meditative practice was no : accident. Your mind was already on a path : toward achieving something you understood to : be desirable, and you gravitated toward a : means to achieve your goal. Oh you mean karma? : : You cannot put yourself, or be put, on the : path. Useless, for example, to say to : someone "You should meditate" or : "You should seek clarity" or even : "You should seek peace." Either : it happens or it does not. : Imo, you are quite possibly right. Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by josef on 1/16/2008, 9:26 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : The matter of using mind to settle : mind...heh, fun to try and wrap one's mind : around that baby. Steve, words fail here, but I would say rather it's using awareness to observe mind. : : The awareness you seek either comes or it : does not. I don't think this is : predestination or karmic destiny; it's more : subtle than that. With powerful biological : influences and ramifications. It's not a matter of "seeking awareness", one is just aware. Becoming aware of the activity in one's own mind in this case. : : That at some point in your past, josef, you : alighted on meditative practice was no : accident. Your mind was already on a path : toward achieving something you understood to : be desirable, and you gravitated toward a : means to achieve your goal. Yes, that's true. In the beginning it was about a goal. In time the goal fell away and it just became interest, curiosity, fascination, going deeper and deeper into the experience, becoming more alert and at peace in the process. : You cannot put yourself, or be put, on the : path. Useless, for example, to say to : someone "You should meditate" or : "You should seek clarity" or even : "You should seek peace." Either : it happens or it does not. Agree useless, and I'd add presumptuous, to tell someone else what to do or how to live life. One can only speak of one's own experience. Others may relate to them or not. No wish to impose one's own view, but also no trusting one's own experience. Ruthless sincerity, someone put it: ruthless, you can't be conned; sincere you don't con. Straight-arrow living. Very plain. josef  Post a Response

correction Posted by josef on 1/16/2008, 9:29 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- No wish to impose one's own view, but : also no trusting one's own experience. Obviously, "also trusting one's own experience", scratch the "no".  Post a Response

either/or and/or Posted by Lian Dao on 1/16/2008, 9:47 am, in reply to "Re: Civilized Insanuty" 78.144.135.X : Sad to say, but there's a LOT of truth in : that. : We are, after all, animals, and many of our : "natural" reactions to the world : about us are : more based on the claw and fang than : "civilization." : It is considered "sane" to go off : to war and to kill as many of the enemy as : possible, and the "best" brains of : society are ever inventing newer : technologies of death. This is not an : abberation. It is human, all too human. : Alas, beyond this military-industrial : version of "sanity," there is no : model of a higher "sanity" that : cannot and will not be criticized and : rejected by some large segment of humanity. : Jesus? Buddha? Laozi? Marx? Mao? Bush? The : cure may just be another version of the : delusion. : We're all just thrown into this life without : a guide book, and we must just do as best we : can. : Valid words Fastovsky. i like your inference to the military-industrial complex, the Western model that is imposing it's version of normative reality globally in the name of the sacred cows of 'democracy' and 'freedom'. i find it interesting that what we term 'civilisation' is mostly artifice, or human made, that is the civilising element stems from somewhere in our psyche, collective or otherwise, to live in cities, to make and enjoy or not even, art, to treat and sanitise our waste, to educate and punish and create technology to harm and heal. i'm no Darwinian and certainly no Creationist, but it seems that the human psyche is pulled in two distinct directions, or rather it would appear to be so. Evolution and Creationist and Marxist determinism imply a lineal, historical progression of our race from a point towards a point, all of which seems to be rather at odds with the so-called ancient wisdom which inferred a cyclical movement of 'time'. We can choose to blame or celebrate nature or humanity as we choose, such is the conditional paradox of our situation. Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: true mind, false mind Posted by josef on 1/16/2008, 9:56 am, in reply to "true mind, false mind" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : The problem inherent in your system Josef : is, are you simply thinking about not : thinking the thoughts you are thinking? If : so then perhaps there is a conditional : distinction, that being of a dualistic : nature, between your mind, or individual, : cognitive thought and Mind as such? No, thinking about not thinking is still thinking. And getting past that is no small matter initially, like getting past the I-awareness, "I am meditating" when meditating. Pushing past it all to pure awareness where there is no thought, and no sense of the "I", just experience. Simple, direct, bare attention is without thought. If one's thinking at all, awareness is at least partially on the thought, and awareness of experience is divided. In the moments of rapt, complete attention, there is no thought. My use of the word "mind" is probably a mistake, but I don't know which word is better. We have cognitive lucidity, we are aware. Of something. Our awareness is ordinarily scattered, dabbling between the fleeting awareness of direct experience and the constant mental chatter going on. Allowing the mental chatter to cease, there remains full awareness, experience. Words are crappy tools. josef  Post a Response

Re: true mind, false mind Posted by Lian Dao on 1/16/2008, 10:02 am, in reply to "true mind, false mind" 78.144.135.X By the inference of Mind, imo, i point to an individual mind that an individual mind identifies with as an individual mind, this would be conditionally 'false', in that this individual mind has a false sense of reality about itself as an individual mind. That this individual mind may be used to detach if you will itself away from its false sense of reality about itself as an individual mind would appear to form the basis of Buddhist, in particular Ch'an cultivation.The 'true' Mind would imply Mind having removed the false sense of itself as individual mind to become simply Mind. There's no moral or eschatological implications in this. Amitofo!  Post a Response

enter the matrix Posted by Lian Dao on 1/16/2008, 10:08 am, in reply to "Re: true mind, false mind" 78.144.135.X : No, thinking about not thinking is still : thinking. And getting past that is no small : matter initially, like getting past the : I-awareness, "I am meditating" : when meditating. Pushing past it all to pure : awareness where there is no thought, and no : sense of the "I", just experience. : : Simple, direct, bare attention is without : thought. If one's thinking at all, awareness : is at least partially on the thought, and : awareness of experience is divided. In the : moments of rapt, complete attention, there : is no thought. : : My use of the word "mind" is : probably a mistake, but I don't know which : word is better. We have cognitive lucidity, : we are aware. Of something. Our awareness is : ordinarily scattered, dabbling between the : fleeting awareness of direct experience and : the constant mental chatter going on. : Allowing the mental chatter to cease, there : remains full awareness, experience. : : Words are crappy tools. : But there all we got :-) i still prefer to say detaching false mind from true mind with all the conditional implications thereof because simply there is no false mind but only true mind and nothing to be detached therefrom. But still it MUST, MUST be done!!!! For it all hinges upon it! Such is the paradox. Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: enter the matrix Posted by josef on 1/16/2008, 10:30 am, in reply to "enter the matrix" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : i still prefer to say detaching false mind : from true mind with all the conditional : implications thereof because simply there is : no false mind but only true mind and nothing : to be detached therefrom. But still it MUST, : MUST be done!!!! For it all hinges upon it! : : Such is the paradox. : : Amitofo! Yes, it's about "detaching false mind from true mind with all the conditional implications", i.e. detaching from the obsessive preoccupation with mind's productions. There is only true mind, yes, "false" mind being nothing but a conditional state, thought-congestion, obscuring it. That state is caused, and can be un-caused. That it must, must be done...well, apparently not, as most don't do it. But to discover for oneself the possibilities, experientially, yes, it must be done, all hinges upon it. josef  Post a Response

Re: true mind, false mind Posted by josef on 1/16/2008, 10:32 am, in reply to "Re: true mind, false mind" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : By the inference of Mind, imo, i point to an : individual mind that an individual mind : identifies with as an individual mind, this : would be conditionally 'false', in that this : individual mind has a false sense of reality : about itself as an individual mind. That : this individual mind may be used to detach : if you will itself away from its false sense : of reality about itself as an individual : mind would appear to form the basis of : Buddhist, in particular Ch'an : cultivation.The 'true' Mind would imply Mind : having removed the false sense of itself as : individual mind to become simply Mind. : There's no moral or eschatological : implications in this. : : Amitofo! Yes.  Post a Response

Re: conditional discharge Posted by Steve on 1/16/2008, 10:42 am, in reply to "conditional discharge" 69.140.59.X : Oh you mean Karma? ----------- To a Buddhist, I suppose yes; it might be understood as karma. Karma (as I understand it--and admittedly, as a non-adherent my understanding may be faulty) is too complicated. Too mechanical. Who is pulling these strings above our heads and causing the puppets to dance, my friend? Who is creating these complicated operating rules? But again, I'm not an adherent, so all my thoughts on this subject are immediately suspect.  Post a Response

ghosts in the machine or faces at the window? Posted by Lian Dao on 1/16/2008, 10:57 am, in reply to "Re: conditional discharge" 149.254.192.X : Who is pulling these strings above our heads : and causing the puppets to dance, my friend? : Who is creating these complicated operating : rules? : Who is making us evolve or involve even? Who is making gravity stop us falling up? Karma isn't some diety to be placated but who is the one who cares anyhoo? Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: enter the matrix Posted by Lian Dao on 1/16/2008, 11:26 am, in reply to "Re: enter the matrix" 149.254.192.X Your words Josef, not mine. Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Steve on 1/16/2008, 3:24 pm, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 69.140.59.X : The matter of using mind to settle : mind...heh, fun to try and wrap one's mind : around that baby. ------------ : Steve, words fail here, but I would say : rather it's using awareness to observe mind. ------------ : The awareness you seek either comes or it : does not. I don't think this is : predestination or karmic destiny; it's more : subtle than that. With powerful biological : influences and ramifications. ------------ : It's not a matter of "seeking : awareness", one is just aware. Becoming : aware of the activity in one's own mind in : this case. ------------ Yes, words certainly fail here. But, fun to keep trying. "It's not a matter of "seeking awareness", one is just aware. Becoming aware of the activity in one's own mind in this case." Are you claiming you skipped the desiring part and went directly to awareness, josef? You seem determined to omit human ickiness from the equation. Will you at least admit that your very human and very wicked desires--for clarity, awareness, whatever...are part of the equation?  Post a Response

Re: enter the matrix Posted by Steve on 1/16/2008, 3:55 pm, in reply to "enter the matrix" 69.140.59.X : i still prefer to say detaching false mind : from true mind with all the conditional : implications thereof because simply there is : no false mind but only true mind and nothing : to be detached therefrom. But still it MUST, : MUST be done!!!! For it all hinges upon it! : : Such is the paradox. -------------- Well, no, you silly Buddhist...there is nothing that must be done. At the end of the road awaits a big neon sign that says, in large flashing lights, "Welcome back, dumbbell." You know that, Lian Dao. If you choose to cultivate something, fine. But at least admit, goddamn it, that it's for entertainment purposes only. Steve  Post a Response

go toward the light! Posted by Lian Dao on 1/16/2008, 4:15 pm, in reply to "Re: enter the matrix" 149.254.201.X The sign, the message, the cultivation, the vacuous, tortous, numbing discussions, all are Steve almost exactly as you suggest, purely for entertainment purposes and as with all entertainment, wholly devoid of value or meaning. Where then should we encounter the light that illumines the sign? Where then should this end of the road be encountered? In this midst of this corpeal incarnation or at its demise? Or the next? But encounter it we MUST! Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: correction Posted by Steve on 1/16/2008, 4:19 pm, in reply to "correction" 69.140.59.X : Obviously, "also trusting one's own : experience", scratch the : "no". ---------- Yes, I trust our experiences. Experience trumps theory, always. Do you trust my experience and hold it equally valid to yours, josef?  Post a Response

Re: go toward the light! Posted by Steve on 1/16/2008, 4:40 pm, in reply to "go toward the light!" 69.140.59.X : The sign, the message, the cultivation, the : vacuous, tortous, numbing discussions, all : are Steve almost exactly as you suggest, : purely for entertainment purposes and as : with all entertainment, wholly devoid of : value or meaning. Where then should we : encounter the light that illumines the sign? : Where then should this end of the road be : encountered? In this midst of this corpeal : incarnation or at its demise? Or the next? : But encounter it we MUST! Amitofo! -------------- Beautiful questions, Lian Dao. You know, of course, that the answer that follows is the exact equivalent of a large explosion of flatulence. I think we must all go about our business. You must be a cultivating Buddhist and I must be a non-cultivating something-else. The world is perfectly 'right' exactly as it is. I don't want to change one iota of it. Steve  Post a Response

ship of fools Posted by Lian Dao on 1/16/2008, 4:55 pm, in reply to "Re: go toward the light!" 149.254.192.X Steve, Without a single flaw, the world is in every aspect of the term beautiful, perfect, without fault. We are both fully aware of that, friend, maybe thats all there is to it. People on the other hand are smelly, vindictive, small-minded, manipulative, greedy, malicious scum. And i love them all the more for it. For i am in every way less than them clinging to the wreckage of Buddhism, blowing opinionated filth from my arse, my screams drowning out the gentle reminder that all is simply as it is. . . Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: Rent "The Matrix" Posted by Fastovsky on 1/16/2008, 6:22 pm, in reply to "enter the matrix" 66.15.76.X : : : i still prefer to say detaching false mind : from true mind with all the conditional : implications thereof because simply there is : no false mind but only true mind and nothing : to be detached therefrom. : Well, there can be false thoughts and not-so-false thoughts, but the both arise from the same brain. The television may tell us a lot of lies, but the television itself is not a lie.  Post a Response

Re: true mind, false mind Posted by Fastovsky on 1/16/2008, 6:35 pm, in reply to "Re: true mind, false mind" 66.15.76.X : that this : individual mind has a false sense of reality : about itself as an individual mind. : Ah, but from where would this false identity arise? The Individual mind either exists or does not exist. If it does not exist, than it cannot have any "sense of reality" at all, false or otherwise. And if it does exist, than it must be real, and not false. : : Mind would imply Mind : having removed the false sense of itself as : individual mind to become simply Mind. : And how does this Mind differ from the individual mind? Is it that Mind decieves itself into believing that it is individual minds? If so, than it is Itself deluded, and cannot show us the way to Reality. The "individual mind" can only be part of "Mind" as long as the individual mind itself is real. If it is not real, than it cannot be a part of anything at all.  Post a Response

false true, true false Posted by Lian Dao on 1/17/2008, 12:50 am, in reply to "Re: true mind, false mind" 78.148.54.X : Ah, but from where would this false identity : arise? It arises, subjectively, in our individual mind, that is it is subject to our psychophysical complex, which is a temporary construct, temporary in that it is subject to the conditions of entropy. The Individual mind either exists or : does not exist. If it does not exist, than : it cannot have any "sense of : reality" at all, false or otherwise. : And if it does exist, than it must be real, : and not false. For something to be said to be 'false', why should that implicate that it doesn't exist according to our material sensory processes? My hand rubbing my other hand? Is that 'false' or just self-referential? : : And how does this Mind differ from the : individual mind? Is it that Mind decieves : itself into believing that it is individual : minds? If so, than it is Itself deluded, and : cannot show us the way to Reality. Why and how can it not? If you use the thought process to think about the thought process then you're still engaged in the thought process. Similarly to not think about thinking just means that you're thinking about not thinking. : The "individual mind" can only be : part of "Mind" as long as the : individual mind itself is real. If it is not : real, than it cannot be a part of anything : at all. : If someone kicks you in the nuts, is that real? What makes the act of foot connecting to nuts real? Amitofo!  Post a Response

Matrix Revolutions Posted by Lian Dao on 1/17/2008, 12:57 am, in reply to "Re: Rent "The Matrix"" 78.148.54.X --Previous Message-- : : : : : i still prefer to say detaching false mind : from true mind with all the conditional : implications thereof because simply there is : no false mind but only true mind and nothing : to be detached therefrom. : : Well, there can be false thoughts and : not-so-false thoughts, but the both arise : from the same brain. The television may tell : us a lot of lies, but the television itself : is not a lie. : The television recieves and projects images into our lives. It performs a function. We term these images in sequence, 'programmes'. Are programmes the television or does television make these programmes? Amitofo!  Post a Response

trusting experience Posted by josef on 1/17/2008, 9:05 am, in reply to "Re: correction" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : Yes, I trust our experiences. Experience : trumps theory, always. : : Do you trust my experience and hold it : equally valid to yours, josef? No, I don't hold yours equally valid to mine. I don't know you well enough. I have a neighbor who absolutely experiences rejection at ever turn, by her accounts. What I see is she has unrealistic expectations of how people should be there for her at all times. We each can only trust our own experience, and, if we mature and honest, only that in direct ratio to how clear we are about what's illusory and what isn't.  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by josef on 1/17/2008, 9:18 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : Are you claiming you skipped the desiring : part and went directly to awareness, josef? This is so elemental, Steve, and we keep going over it. There no desire to have awareness...we're born aware. Where we direct our awareness is habit or choice. Not to have any is coma or death. : : You seem determined to omit human ickiness : from the equation. What Ickiness??? : Will you at least admit that your very human : and very wicked desires--for clarity, : awareness, whatever...are part of the : equation? No, I'm aware, there's no desire involved. Clarity is a discovery, not a desire. The initial desire for clarity, Enlightenment, whatever else, that sent me on this journey, gave way a long time ago to simple fascination, engagement, curiosity without expectation or hope of anything, a spirit of inquiry for its own sake. Just experience. Could liken it to entering a vast new landscape with extraordinary colors, textures, shapes, and simply exploring it, fascinated. Enoughness in just living it. You don't have to trust my experience, I haven't insisted you do. I have shared it, but am dead tired of having to defend it to you and re-explain it. The Taoist practices & principles that used to be discussed here by people who find great insight in them have been so challenged here, debased even, little by little the forum has emptied. I give up, too. josef  Post a Response

Re: trusting experience Posted by gar on 1/17/2008, 9:36 am, in reply to "trusting experience" 70.100.197.X Greetings Josef, While shoveling snow and carrying water this morning i thought how we can have direct experience and thoughtful experience. It seems to me that our brains are more that just a data collecting processor because it likes to entertain itself with analysis. The practice of observing this analysis goes back to data collecting and then completing the circle with analysis. This is how i polish the mirror. in peace, gar --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Yes, I trust our experiences. Experience : trumps theory, always. : : Do you trust my experience and hold it : equally valid to yours, josef? : : No, I don't hold yours equally valid to : mine. I don't know you well enough. I have : a neighbor who absolutely experiences : rejection at ever turn, by her accounts. : What I see is she has unrealistic : expectations of how people should be there : for her at all times. : : We each can only trust our own experience, : and, if we mature and honest, only that in : direct ratio to how clear we are about : what's illusory and what isn't. :  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by gar on 1/17/2008, 9:46 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 70.100.197.X Greetings Josef, Maybe we can share our thoughts without listening to the storm outside. I enjoy your companionship. in peace, gar --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Are you claiming you skipped the desiring : part and went directly to awareness, josef? : : This is so elemental, Steve, and we keep : going over it. There no desire to have : awareness...we're born aware. Where we : direct our awareness is habit or choice. Not : to have any is coma or death. : : You seem determined to omit human ickiness : from the equation. : : What Ickiness??? : : Will you at least admit that your very human : and very wicked desires--for clarity, : awareness, whatever...are part of the : equation? : : No, I'm aware, there's no desire involved. : Clarity is a discovery, not a desire. The : initial desire for clarity, Enlightenment, : whatever else, that sent me on this journey, : gave way a long time ago to simple : fascination, engagement, curiosity without : expectation or hope of anything, a spirit of : inquiry for its own sake. Just experience. : Could liken it to entering a vast new : landscape with extraordinary colors, : textures, shapes, and simply exploring it, : fascinated. Enoughness in just living it. : : You don't have to trust my experience, I : haven't insisted you do. I have shared it, : but am dead tired of having to defend it to : you and re-explain it. The Taoist practices : & principles that used to be discussed : here by people who find great insight in : them have been so challenged here, debased : even, little by little the forum has : emptied. I give up, too. : : josef : : : :  Post a Response

Party for your right to fight Posted by Lian Dao on 1/17/2008, 9:49 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 89.241.138.X : You don't have to trust my experience, I : haven't insisted you do. I have shared it, : but am dead tired of having to defend it to : you and re-explain it. The Taoist practices : & principles that used to be discussed : here by people who find great insight in : them have been so challenged here, debased : even, little by little the forum has : emptied. I give up, too. : Josef, If you consider that it is your posts that get this place talking the most, then i hope you will re-consider your decision. This forum is truly a festering hell cesspit of the lowest circle and as a would be bodhisattva my duty here is to educate and help liberate these misguided, hungry ghosts from the mistakes that led them here in the first place and hopefully secure for them if not a rebirth in the human realm then at least a rebirth in a better hell. It may take up a few of my lifetimes, but that's the way it goes. Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by josef on 1/17/2008, 11:10 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 24.32.223.X --Previous Message-- : Greetings Josef, : : Maybe we can share our thoughts without : listening to the storm outside. : I enjoy your companionship. : : in peace, : gar Well, the storm isn't outside, it's inside. I enjoy your company, too, Gar, but it's impossible to enjoy the quiet, serious conversation we might like here while at the same table there's coarse ranting, challenges constantly interrupting, ridicule, debunking and debasing, sarcasm. I'll check back in a few months and see if, once again, TaoSpeaks has miraculously swung back to openness, the friendly, harmonious place where those on the Way can meet in sincerity and good will. We have the forest to enjoy. Namaste, friend, josef  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Steve on 1/17/2008, 11:20 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 69.140.59.X : You don't have to trust my experience, I : haven't insisted you do. I have shared it, : but am dead tired of having to defend it to : you and re-explain it. The Taoist practices : & principles that used to be discussed : here by people who find great insight in : them have been so challenged here, debased : even, little by little the forum has : emptied. I give up, too. : : josef ----------------------- Before you go, this from an earlier exchange: Steve: "Yes, I trust our experiences. Experience trumps theory, always. Do you trust my experience and hold it equally valid to yours, josef?" Josef: "No, I don't hold yours equally valid to mine. I don't know you well enough." *** That's very sad, and sums up our differences. You may want to go back to the cultivation drawing board, josef, because the Big Bad Voracious Ego you so adamantly believe needs crippling has been running a bit amuck of late. Your views of Daoist practices and principles are uniquely yours. Despite your frequent protestations to the contrary you want them to belong to all with whom you commune, because yours are the only 'authentic' views. The only 'authentic' Daoist way. That this is the case is obvious to any careful reader of your posts. Good luck in the nirvana you've carved out for yourself, josef. Pray for us souls adrift in the glorious frenzy of existence. Steve  Post a Response

so long and thanks for all the fish Posted by Lian Dao on 1/17/2008, 11:27 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 149.254.192.X Josef, don't go on my account. You were here before me and technically i'm not a Taoist and have no inclination in that direction. Please, allow me to bow out and the harmony of the past may be restored. Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: so long and thanks for all the fish Posted by Steve on 1/17/2008, 11:42 am, in reply to "so long and thanks for all the fish" 69.140.59.X : Josef, don't go on my account. You were here : before me and technically i'm not a Taoist : and have no inclination in that direction. : Please, allow me to bow out and the harmony : of the past may be restored. Amitofo! --------------- No! Don't you go anywhere Lian Dao! I for one would trade in the whole goddamn lot of self-possessed Daoist purists for your asswipe, astute observations. Steve  Post a Response

you say goodbye Posted by Lian Dao on 1/17/2008, 12:14 pm, in reply to "Re: so long and thanks for all the fish" 149.254.201.X Steve, you're going to hate me for saying this but you remind me of a Pure Land Buddhist i once had the acquaintance of. Nothing to practice, he'd say, this is it. Pure and simple. i assure you that when i decide to leave i'll bring down this whole rotten pack of cards with me. Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: you say goodbye Posted by gar on 1/17/2008, 2:03 pm, in reply to "you say goodbye" 70.100.197.X Greetings Lian Dao, I like your humor Lian Dao. What are these cards you speak of? Re;"bring down this whole rotten pack of cards with me." ????? It seems to me in this game of word bantering you can only lose if you think you can win. in peace, gar  Post a Response

i say hello Posted by Lian Dao on 1/17/2008, 2:23 pm, in reply to "Re: you say goodbye" 149.254.192.X Such is the nature of my Zen banter, Gar that all of my perceived word trickery merely serve to indicate to anyone who will listen, my ongoing quest for liberation. The rotten pack of cards in question refer to the skandhic aggregate formations stacked up that i provisionally refer to as i, whose hold will collapse as i slough off my attachment to them. Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: i say hello Posted by gar on 1/17/2008, 2:36 pm, in reply to "i say hello" 70.100.197.X Me thinks, Lian Dao, that the battle within your self is caused by a dis-ease of non-acceptance. But as the rat likes to say, I might be full of shit, or something like that. in peace, gar --Previous Message-- : Such is the nature of my Zen banter, Gar that : all of my perceived word trickery merely : serve to indicate to anyone who will listen, : my ongoing quest for liberation. The rotten : pack of cards in question refer to the : skandhic aggregate formations stacked up : that i provisionally refer to as i, whose : hold will collapse as i slough off my : attachment to them. Amitofo! :  Post a Response

Re: i say hello Posted by Steve on 1/17/2008, 3:36 pm, in reply to "Re: i say hello" 69.140.59.X : Me thinks, Lian Dao, that the battle within : your self is caused by a dis-ease of : non-acceptance. --------------------- Maybe, gar, but I see in Lian Dao's writings a balanced approach: the articulation of desire and the acknowledgement of what is. Both, at the same time. Neither contradicting the other. Both at play in the same moment. A wise approach to living, imo. Steve  Post a Response

Re: i say hello Posted by gar on 1/17/2008, 3:46 pm, in reply to "Re: i say hello" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : Me thinks, Lian Dao, that the battle within : your self is caused by a dis-ease of : non-acceptance. : : --------------------- : : Maybe, gar, but I see in Lian Dao's writings : a balanced approach: the articulation of : desire and the acknowledgement of what is. : Both, at the same time. Neither : contradicting the other. Both at play in : the same moment. : : A wise approach to living, imo. : : Steve : Me thinks there lies the disconnect, desires contradicting the what is. But as you know, Steve, I'm full of shit. in peace, gar : :  Post a Response

Re: i say hello Posted by Steve on 1/17/2008, 4:05 pm, in reply to "Re: i say hello" 69.140.59.X : Steve : Me thinks there lies the disconnect, desires : contradicting the what is. But as you know, : Steve, I'm full of shit. -------------- On the contrary, gar; I consider you a genuine, non-bull shit type of guy. It doesn't matter to me that we sometimes disagree; I believe I can see past that nonsense to your heart, as expressed in your words. Heart revealed openly, and courageously. Steve  Post a Response

i don't know why you say goodbye Posted by Lian Dao on 1/18/2008, 2:21 am, in reply to "Re: i say hello" 149.254.201.X Gar and Steve, i'm quite sure that you don't need me to validate your opinions concerning my vile meanderings in the what is and aimless struggling desire and for that i salute you both. But to be honest, i don't really care. 'Balance' and 'disconnect' are relative conditions and you are welcome to them both. It's my path and i will walk it as i damn well choose. Rightly or wrongly.And when i do decide to depart from here it will be on my own terms and there will be no fanfare. Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: i don't know why you say goodbye Posted by gar on 1/18/2008, 5:18 am, in reply to "i don't know why you say goodbye" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : Gar and Steve, i'm quite sure that you don't : need me to validate your opinions concerning : my vile meanderings in the what is and : aimless struggling desire and for that i : salute you both. But to be honest, i don't : really care. 'Balance' and 'disconnect' are : relative conditions and you are welcome to : them both. It's my path and i will walk it : as i damn well choose. Rightly or : wrongly.And when i do decide to depart from : here it will be on my own terms and there : will be no fanfare. Amitofo! : Experiencing this thing that calls itself, Lian Dao, reminds me of sitting along deer creek. Sometimes when the water is rushing down the stream with untold energy i'm filled with the qi of water. Wow, what a rush. But most of the time i like to sit on the bank and experience the water as it gently seeks its own level. It seems there is peace in calm water. gar hopes you find your calm water. in peace, gar  Post a Response

the difference between good and bad Posted by Lian Dao on 1/18/2008, 6:14 am, in reply to "Re: i don't know why you say goodbye" 149.254.192.X Thank you Gar for your well wishes. Lian Dao trusts that you are able to discern the difference between calm water and stagnant water. Amitofo!  Post a Response

Re: the difference between good and bad Posted by gar on 1/18/2008, 6:35 am, in reply to "the difference between good and bad" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : Thank you Gar for your well wishes. Lian Dao : trusts that you are able to discern the : difference between calm water and stagnant : water. Amitofo! : Sometimes change is difficult to ascertain, ah, old boy. Especially if it doesn't fit our criteria. in peace, gar  Post a Response

not necessarily Posted by rene on 1/18/2008, 3:08 pm, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 70.65.192.X Josef, hi --Previous Message-- : That this is the case is obvious to any careful reader of your posts. I must not be reading your posts carefully enough - as I've not seen any indication that this is the case at all. (-: From what I've read of your words throughout the years - you've expressed your ideas without belittling others for not thinking the same way. I appreciate your open-hearted sharing, which I believe to be genuine, whether it's an opinion I happen to agree with, or not. warm regards  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by dagmar on 1/19/2008, 4:18 pm, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 68.145.209.X : It's not a matter of "seeking : awareness", one is just aware. Becoming : aware of the activity in one's own mind in : this case. : : Yes, that's true. In the beginning it was : about a goal. In time the goal fell away and : it just became interest, curiosity, : fascination, going deeper and deeper into : the experience, becoming more alert and at : peace in the process. are you saying that control of the mind derives from the cultivation of tranquility or stillness?  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by dagmar on 1/19/2008, 4:30 pm, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 68.145.209.X The Taoist practices : & principles that used to be discussed : here by people who find great insight in : them have been so challenged here, debased : even, little by little the forum has : emptied. I give up, too. well i hope not Joseph, i have been here very very little and for that i am truly saddened. but when possible i come here to find a taoist-like community, something rooted in the ancient teachings even though i might be a miserable failure as a student.  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Chris on 1/20/2008, 6:38 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 144.139.151.X --Previous Message-- : The Taoist practices : & principles that used to be discussed : here by people who find great insight in : them have been so challenged here, debased : even, little by little the forum has : emptied. I give up, too. Scepticism would appear to be among those principles. So would be giving up! Welcome, fellow traveller!  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Wayne L on 1/21/2008, 9:17 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 128.241.40.X --Previous Message-- Indeed, meditation : techniques are basically about controlling : the mind. And it's not passive control, it's : sitting on the mind and whipping it into : shape! Hear Hear!!!!! Ye, Amen, Ra!!  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Wayne L on 1/21/2008, 9:29 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 128.241.40.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : It's not about : "sitting on the mind and whipping it : into shape", but being aware of what : mind is doing, observing the activity of : thought, and in that state of bare, direct : attention thoughts aren't being churned out, : mind settles and falls quiet naturally, : effortlessly. Who wants to sit on their ass in a cave somewhere with an Blank Mind chanting, O No me, No me, No me  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Wayne L on 1/21/2008, 10:08 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 128.241.40.X : : The awareness you seek either comes or it : does not. I don't think this is : predestination or karmic destiny; it's more : subtle than that. With powerful biological : influences and ramifications. : : That at some point in your past, josef, you : alighted on meditative practice was no : accident. Your mind was already on a path : toward achieving something you understood to : be desirable, and you gravitated toward a : means to achieve your goal. What in the world are you talking about? You state that you do not believe in Predetermination, Karmic destiny and then you turn around and tell someone that alighting on meditative practice was no accident. Sounds like you are describing Karmic destiny, predestination, predetermination. Accidents are predetermined, Created. Nothing happens without a cause; it is just that the cause may or may not be a direct cause, direct meaning material cause. Gravitation is without direct cause, Gravitation is an affect, Gravitation has no known direct material, Physical cause. Man is predestined to become Fully Realized but that does any one individual will reach said destiny in his or her life time. It is not Man's, Individual Man's, Karmic destiny to become Fully Realized after many life times; Man's Karmic Destiny refers to ManKind as a Whole. It may take a thousand Life Times, Generations, for Man, Mankind, to reach his and her Karmic Destiny of Full Self Realization. : You cannot put yourself, or be put, on the : path. Useless, for example, to say to : someone "You should meditate" or : "You should seek clarity" or even : "You should seek peace." Either : it happens or it does not. : : Imo. : : Steve  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by gar on 1/21/2008, 10:30 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 70.100.197.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : It's not about : "sitting on the mind and whipping it : into shape", but being aware of what : mind is doing, observing the activity of : thought, and in that state of bare, direct : attention thoughts aren't being churned out, : mind settles and falls quiet naturally, : effortlessly. : : : Who wants to sit on their ass in a cave : somewhere : with an Blank Mind chanting, O No me, No me, : No me : Greetings Wayne, Maybe the interesting part of mental cave dwelling is, the focus on ones own self honesty? Then in the cycle of mental cave dwelling, after accepting honesty there is a desire to let go of self-mindfulness, like exhaling the breath. Ah Ha, stillness, the manifestation of meditation. in peace, gar  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Wayne L on 1/21/2008, 10:46 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 128.241.40.X --Previous Message-- : There no desire to have : awareness...we're born aware. Where we : direct our awareness is habit or choice. Not : to have any is coma or death. Man is born aware only of things that are readily apparent, measurable, that can be experienced in the Material, Physical, Sense of the Word. We are not born aware of our thoughts; we have Knowledge of nothing when first born, the Primordial Tao, Mind, Reason, Intellect, Self, is Wu Chi---->O, is without form, shape, definition, Void, is nothing more an Empty Container. I have not desire to be void of thought; I do however choose to have control over my thoughts. Get thee behind me, tempt not thy Lord thy God!!! Keeper of the Holy Grail--->O  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Wayne L on 1/21/2008, 10:56 am, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 128.241.40.X --Previous Message-- : : : --Previous Message-- : : Are you claiming you skipped the desiring : part and went directly to awareness, josef? : : This is so elemental, Steve, and we keep : going over it. There no desire to have : awareness...we're born aware. Where we : direct our awareness is habit or choice. Not : to have any is coma or death. : : No, I'm aware, there's no desire involved. : Clarity is a discovery, not a desire. The : initial desire The use of the term Initial desire implies that your desire is not gone, but that the nature desire has Changed; the desire now being non-specific, a matter of discovery. for clarity, Enlightenment, : whatever else, that sent me on this journey, : gave way a long time ago to simple : fascination, engagement, curiosity without : expectation or hope of anything, a spirit of : inquiry for its own sake. : : josef : : : :  Post a Response

Re: Party for your right to fight Posted by Wayne L on 1/21/2008, 11:17 am, in reply to "Party for your right to fight" 128.241.40.X --Previous Message-- : You don't have to trust my experience, I : haven't insisted you do. I have shared it, : but am dead tired of having to defend it to : you and re-explain it. The Taoist practices : & principles that used to be discussed : here by people who find great insight in : them have been so challenged here, debased : even, little by little the forum has : emptied. I give up, too. : : : Josef, : : If you consider that it is your posts that : get this place talking the most, then i hope : you will re-consider your decision. : : This forum is truly a festering hell cesspit : of the lowest circle and as a would be : bodhisattva my duty here is to educate and : help liberate these misguided, hungry ghosts : from the mistakes that led them here in the : first place and hopefully secure for them if : not a rebirth in the human realm then at : least a rebirth in a better hell. It may : take up a few of my lifetimes, but that's : the way it goes. : : Amitofo! : Hear Hear!!! Ye, Amen, Ah Moon, Ra! ---->O  Post a Response

Re: enter the matrix Posted by Wayne L on 1/21/2008, 12:20 pm, in reply to "enter the matrix" 128.241.40.X --Previous Message-- : : i still prefer to say detaching false mind : from true mind with all the conditional : implications thereof because simply there is : no false mind but only true mind and nothing : to be detached therefrom. But still it MUST, : MUST be done!!!! For it all hinges upon it! : : Such is the paradox. : : Amitofo! : There is no paradox. False, Not True, Not Absolute, not Whole, Incomplete, not Fully Realized. True, Absolute, Whole, Complete, Fully Realized.  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Chris on 1/21/2008, 7:49 pm, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 163.189.217.X : I have not desire to be void of thought; I : do however choose to have control over my : thoughts. The extent of control over one's thoughts determines the extent of one's openness? I accept and respect your choices, but want to understand your reasons, without wanting to persuade.  Post a Response

Re: Who turned on the Light??? Posted by Wayne L on 1/22/2008, 12:23 pm, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 128.241.105.X --Previous Message-- : : Hmm. Seems to assume some form of innate : schizophrenia in the humans... Schizophrenia. 1. Psychiatry. Also called dementia praecox. a severe mental disorder characterized by some, but not necessarily all, of the following features: emotional blunting, intellectual deterioration, social isolation, disorganized speech and behavior, delusions, and hallucinations. 2. a state characterized by the coexistence of contradictory or incompatible elements. Spiritual Body, Flesh Body, Mind and Body, Yin and Yang, Adam and Eve, Duplicity, guilefulness. Evil, Duplicity, Guilefulness, is the greatest cause of all Suffering. The Knowledge of Good and Evil is the cause of Duplicity, Guilefulness, delusion; absolutely Bad Knowledge is the Greatest cause of all suffering, Emotional Blunting, Intellectual deterioration, Social isolation, disorganized Speech, Babel, Death.  Post a Response

Re: Civilized Insanuty Posted by Wayne L on 1/22/2008, 12:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Civilized Insanuty" 128.241.105.X All is lost as long as Evil exists. --Previous Message-- : We are, after all, animals, and many of our : "natural" reactions to the world about us are : more based on the claw and fang than : "civilization." : It is considered "sane" to go off : to war and to kill as many of the enemy as : possible, and the "best" brains of : society are ever inventing newer : technologies of death. This is not an : abberation. It is human, all too human. : Alas, beyond this military-industrial : version of "sanity," there is no : model of a higher "sanity" that : cannot and will not be criticized and : rejected by some large segment of humanity. : Jesus? Buddha? Laozi? Marx? Mao? Bush? The : cure may just be another version of the : delusion. : We're all just thrown into this life without : a guide book, and we must just do as best we : can. :  Post a Response

Re: so long and thanks for all the fish Posted by Wayne L on 1/22/2008, 1:04 pm, in reply to "so long and thanks for all the fish" 128.241.105.X --Previous Message-- : Josef, don't go on my account. You were here : before me and technically i'm not a Taoist : and have no inclination in that direction. : Please, allow me to bow out and the harmony : of the past may be restored. Amitofo! : Hey! If they don't want to play with the Big Dogs they shouldn't get down off the porch.  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Wayne L on 1/24/2008, 1:04 pm, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 198.172.206.X --Previous Message-- : : I have not desire to be void of thought; I : do however choose to have control over my : thoughts. : : The extent of control over one's thoughts : determines the extent of one's openness? : : I accept and respect your choices, but want : to understand your reasons, without wanting : to persuade. : I am going to start a new post in which I will try to answer your question. Titled, Tao, Reason, mind, Resoning Mind, sensibility, consciousness, Creativity?  Post a Response

Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom Posted by Wayne L on 1/24/2008, 1:07 pm, in reply to "Re: pop recognition of ancient wisdom" 198.172.206.X --Previous Message-- : : --Previous Message-- : It's not about : "sitting on the mind and whipping it : into shape", but being aware of what : mind is doing, observing the activity of : thought, and in that state of bare, direct : attention thoughts aren't being churned out, : mind settles and falls quiet naturally, : effortlessly. : : : Who wants to sit on their ass in a cave : somewhere : with an Blank Mind chanting, O No me, No me, : No me : : Greetings Wayne, : : Maybe the interesting part of mental cave : dwelling is, the focus on ones own self : honesty? : Then in the cycle of mental cave dwelling, : after accepting honesty there is a desire to : let go of self-mindfulness, like exhaling : the breath. : Ah Ha, stillness , the manifestation of : meditation. : : in peace, : gar Stillness is relative.  Post a Response

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