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Posted by ButchO
on 4/25/2011, 8:27 am, in reply to "Re: self-interest; not selflessness"
162.40.51.x
--Previous Message--
: hi rat,
:
: i have also seen the flip side of this, for
: instance something akin to the Buddhist
: concept of merit and the contest that can
: create. when old people came in to the tai
: chi club someone usually brought a chair. i
: remember a good friend practically hip
: checking me to get the chair. i know i'm not
: fast but i was about to meet someone. it
: happened quite a number of times and led me
: to question the idea of helping and harming.
: so i see it more as having the will to be
: more open minded and inclusive when
: possible. enjoy contributing, enjoy getting
: out of the way, cross fingers sometimes.
:
: d
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: Seneca: "No one can ever live happily
: who has to regard himself alone and
: transforms everything into a question of his
: own utility; you must live for your
: neighbor, if you would live for
: yourself."
:
:
: Hi ButchO, have not forgotten my agreement.
: It is in my self-interest to keep it.
:
: love,
: rat
:
rat,
All of this dialogue is ultimately an infinite regression. No matter how refined we make our arguments they always lead to a yet more refined position. And so on and so forth. No wonder Zhuangzi was looking for a man that had forgotten words. That is, he was looking for people to talk to that were no longer clinging to their words. No longer enamored with their words. No longer attached to their words. Like me.
I say infinite regression not as a put down or dismissal in any way. I believe our words are important. They have their use. Duck!
The Southern School is shooting at us again. Hill Betties. Can't live with 'em. Can't shoot'em.
I digress.
Yes I do.
As I was saying. I think our arguments, our discussions with emotional content, have their place in the scheme of things. Of course it is nice when everyone is being nice but, sometimes nice will only get you so far. A time and a season...
Mathematically it is possible for two lines to never meet or cross even though they are always getting closer to each other. Makes my head hurt. And so it is when we try to make the final nondual statement. That is, the final nondual statement always implies a dualistic response. And so on and so forth. ie. Infinite Regression.
But we like to have the last word. Well, some of you do. Us sages, well, we had just as soon head on out the door and go on down the road and cross on over the mountain and jump into the ocean and...
Let us take the pledge. I do hereby solemnly swear to appreciate your report as long as you solemnly swear to appreciate mine. That is we can encourage one another to further refine our understanding of that which is beyond final understanding without appearing a sissyphus. As my buddy the OldBoy used to say, "Listen to ButchO and he will listen to you." Ok, he may never have actually said that, but it is true most of the time.
So, I do hereby swear to look upon rat's position statements with a renewed sense of wonder and awe, if not, then shock and awe may have to do. rat challenges me. I like a challenge. He challenges me to rethink my own positions. To refine them so as to move ever closer to that which cannot be fully understood. Ultimate Reality for lack of a better placeholder. The Tao if you will. Or shit stick if you prefer. To each his or her own.
One more thing, I would like to point out one disagreement I have with Zhuangzi. I think it would have been better to say, "Show me a 'person' that has forgotten words...
Even our greatest sages could not touch the line with their words. We are all to an extent the product of our environment. Like us they were just pointing at it as best they knew how. The Kingdom of Heaven is "Like" a mustard seed.
Yeah I know, I talk too much.
PS anyway:
Laozi was not a dualist. He was a nondualist that like the rest of us was painting within a dualistic medium. And a great painter he was.
ButchO
137
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"The Tao is basically utterly open. Utter openeness has no substance. It ends in endlessness, begins in beginninglessnes".
-Li Daoqun
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