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Posted by Butcho
on 4/10/2009, 8:17 am, in reply to "Re: Wu-Wei. Taoist Faith."
75.88.41.X
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Friends,
:
: By "Faith" I do not mean anyone
: has to have the same faith in my God or gods
: as I do. By Faith I mean that no matter our
: personal philosophy we rely on something we
: have "named" to get us through our
: day. Especially the difficult ones.
:
: For ren ying it is faith in the
: "swing". For some it is simply
: faith in existence. For some it is the
: eternal Tao. Others Allah. Others the Great
: Spirit in the Sky. Others claim no faith in
: anything at all. Some have faith in no
: faith.
:
: We all trust in something. I trust in
: existence. And for me there is something
: behind or beyond the One and the Many.
: Beyond temporal existence. Something
: eternal. Something Moses called "I AM
: THAT I AM".
:
: Letting go of our conditioning is what it is
: all about for me. Being born again. Waking
: up. Returning to our original self, our
: original nature.
:
: And for me I find this best done when I let
: go of words.
:
: Butcho
:
: Letting go of conditioning is what it's all
: about for me too. Your "We all trust in
: something" gave me pause, wondering
: what it is I trust in. On reflection,
: strangely it's cause and effect, process,
: AKA Tao, the Way.
:
: Yes Josef, letting go of conditioning, i
: like that!
:
: in peace,
: gar
:
:
: Friends,
:
: Is not faith another word for wu-wei? Is not
: wu-wei action that is in accord with the way
: of the Tao. Wu-wei equals faith-action.
: Unconditioned action. Action free of one's
: conditioning. Natural action is more the
: product of feel than it is of thinking.
:
: Butcho
:
:
: Butch - the problem is that you are using
: words - for example "faith" in the
: way you like...
:
: Merriam Webster writes
:
: 1 a: allegiance to duty or a person :
: loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises
: (2): sincerity of intentions
: 2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to
: God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines
: of a religion b (1): firm belief in
: something for which there is no proof (2):
: complete trust
: 3: something that is believed especially
: with strong conviction ; especially : a
: system of religious beliefs
:
: wu wei has nothing to do with this
:
: Urvertrauen has nothing to do with this
:
: -
: If you take 2 a
:
: This faith destroys "Urvertrauen"
: Since it makes you for trust dependent on
: this...
:
: Urvertrauen is given naturally...
: Somehow i have the feeling you are meaning
: just this...
:
: we cannot understand wu wei
: if we have not understood
: wu
: before
:
ren ying,
I was hoping you would join in the conversation. Though we sometimes disagree I always appreciate your considered opinion.
You tend to be more of a left-brained type while I tend to be more of a right-brained type. So, how do we communicate. With an open heart I suppose.
You tend to be a literalist. I tend to be more into the spirit of what is being said, and not so much into the law of what is being said. Please don't be offended. But frankly, I find your's to be a rather narrow and confining way of seeing things. Different strokes for different folks.
The right-brain makes very little sense to the left. But you have a right-brain as well as I do. So I try to appeal to your right while speaking to your left. I am not always very successful in this, but I keep trying. I am one heck of a guy.
I equate faith with wu-wei. You and your dictionary don't. Perhaps you would like it if I used the word trust or bide instead of faith. To me trust and faith are pretty much the same thing. But I will continue to use the word faith just as surely as you continue to use the word swing.
I am not against Religion. I am against the fundamentalism of the religious mindset. Whether in myself or in others. And, hold onto your Bratwurst, in my opinion yours is a fundamentalist position where the topic of faith is concerned. Anything that suggests there might be something behind everything, especially a Creator, you automatically discount as being verbotten where intelligent conversation is concerned. You would dictate the terms of the conversation. Your swing or no swing.
Such is the nature of the left-brain. The home of the religious mind. The right is the home of spiritual consciousness. I venture into the left-brain every time I use words. Isn't it about time you entered into the right when you read them?
ren ying has "trust" in the swing. I am sorry for suggesting otherwise. I have "faith" in existence. I am not sorry for having faith. I feel sorry for those that have none. Sorry because I feel faith is a natural response to existence. In my opinion it is only from one's conditioning that one would think otherwise.
Butcho
138
"The Tao is basically utterly open. Utter openeness has no substance. It ends in endlessness, begins in beginninglessnes".
-Li Daoqun
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