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Posted by Shumard Oak
on 12/22/2008, 8:40 am, in reply to "Rising and Falling: a continuation"
75.88.46.X
--Previous Message--
: --Previous Message by Steve--
: ...
: First, I witness it in myself and
: others--the bits that are not useful or
: productive rising and falling away in their
: own time.
: from:
: http://members.boardhost.com/Zentao00/msg/1229791696.html
:
: Hi Steve,
:
: Do you not witness things becoming habitual
: or people acquiring bad habits (that persist
: despite not being useful, or long after
: their usefulness has gone)?
: Bao Pu
: from:
: http://members.boardhost.com/Zentao00/msg/1229873727.html
:
: Steve: I'm not smart enough to know when
: habits are persisting beyond their time of
: usefulness. How could I know such a thing?
:
: -- It's true that it is not often easy to
: tell when something is no longer useful.
: Like this conversation, for example. But
: I've found that most of the time, with a
: little introspection, I can. I suspect the
: same is true for everyone.
:
: Steve: How can I know where the dividing
: line of useful and not useful is? What looks
: bad or ugly or not useful to me might, in
: fact, be quite useful in the scheme of
: things.
:
: -- Yes, that's also something to keep in
: mind. But again, it's not impossible. For
: example, damaging a relationship by verbal
: or physical abuse can be identified as not
: useful or productive if one really wants
: to continue to enjoy the relationship.
:
: Steve: I know when I'm unhappy though--and I
: know when others report being unhappy. Once
: unhappiness is recognized, the trajectory
: often changes. Sometimes for the better, but
: not always.
:
: -- I've noticed that too. But perhaps more
: often the trajectory doesn't change unless
: some effort is put into it. Perhaps a poor
: example: I've noticed that I procrastinate
: too much and things don't get done that I
: want done and that stuff piles up. I've
: recognized this, but the habit has not
: changed. I suspect that it will take some
: "self-cultivation" to correct
: this, but I am still procrastinating that
: too ;-)
:
: Steve: I cannot 'make' myself recognize
: unhappiness or un-usefulness in my life.
: Cultivation will not achieve that for me.
: Either the recognition happens, or it does
: not. Maybe cultivation works for others in
: that regard. I can't say. I suspect, though,
: that once you recognize the 'desirability'
: or usefulness of cultivation, you are
: already on a changed trajectory. U.G.
: Krishnamurti described the movement toward
: natural, uncontrived, living--if and when it
: occurs--as being 'acausal.' When it happens,
: it just happens. You cannot 'make' it
: happen. That sounds right to me.
:
: -- So you know when you're unhappy but can't
: 'make yourself recognize' it. Well, without
: going into defining 'happiness' and
: 'usefulness,' I'd say that yes, we can often
: know if we're unhappy or doing something not
: useful or productive. Sometimes it's
: obvious, sometimes it's an intuitive
: feeling. There have been times where I've
: known that something was bothering me, but I
: wasn't exactly sure what is was (until
: later).
:
: But I've also noticed there are things which
: are sources of unhappiness (and
: unhealthiness and disharmony) which are hard
: to detect unless one engages in some
: introspection (or perhaps meditation?). If
: one isn't inclined to look within, to engage
: in some introspection to achieve some
: self-knowledge, then they won't recognize
: these things. I suppose external
: circumstances might one day force someone to
: make that inward journey, or they may live
: in ignorance to the sources of their
: troubles till they die.
:
: So, in a way I'm saying that anyone can
: make something happen by opening the doors
: to allow himself or herself to see it, just
: as there are things we can do to prevent
: ourselves from seeing/recognizing the
: sources of unhappiness, poor health and
: disharmony. Ideally, we'd all be very
: self-aware, but in my experience, this is
: not the case. Not without some 'effort,' at
: least in the beginning.
:
: Good health,
: Bao Pu
:
Bao Pu,
Kind of funny in a way. That is it is kind of funny to me when the vast majority of people are told that something as simple as sitting down and following their breath for a few minutes a day might help them to have more clarity in their lives is so vehemently rejected. Or simply ignored. Or poopooed.
What, me sit? What is the matter for you? Don't you realize I have better things to do? I've got to be in two places at once. I've got to get out there and mix it up with the other rats (sorry rat) in the rat race. Vrooom Vrooom! Get out of my way. Hurry up can't you see I'm in a hurry. Idiot. Slowpoke. Old woman. Old man. Useless people. Obstructions to my getting ahead. Doorstops. Why don't you do the world a favor and just go ahead and die!
The monkey mind does not want to sit still. It usually takes some kind of a life changing event in a person's life to get them to slow down long enough to actually think about what it is they are doing. Funny that.
Please realize, when I say people I am people too. Any wisdom I might have has come to me for the most part the hard way. I am well aware of the monkey mind and its tricks. Life has brought me to my knees more than once. It will again. But the less I am controlled by monkey mind the less the impact of the ups and downs of life on my peace. I like to think I am becoming more and more like the Taoist farmer. And I know of no better way to come to terms with my monkey mind than through meditation and contemplation. And it helps to read the words of others that have taken the path of meditation before me. No man is an island.
I am not saying that the way of meditation is the only way to live wisely. Though we all come from the Void we are each unique. If no two snowflakes are the same then how much more is this also true of ourselves. All conditioning aside, we are still each unique. Totality is not one, it is a unitive one.
With that said, I also am of the opinion that the way of meditation is the master way to the Way. Not the only way, but the one way that is best suited to the needs of most people. Most people are caught up in their monkey mind. So much so that they actually think they are exclusively their thoughts. I think, therefore I am. We have our Descartes before our horse. This is where most people are. Backwards. And meditation is the way out of this maze of conditioning, the way to learn to turn the light around. The way out from the matrix of one's monkey mind. Monkey mind is an untamed mind. Not a free mind, but a wild mind. A reactive mind of habit. Not free. Not open.
If one wants to see below the surface of a murky pool of water one simply needs to wait patiently while the water returns to its original state of clarity. Then one can see for oneself not only what is within the pool but what lies at the bottom of the pool as well.
Shu
107
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"The Tao is basically utterly open. Utter openeness has no substance. It ends in endlessness, begins in beginninglessnes".
-Li Daoqun
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