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Posted by rat on 12/22/2008, 7:10 am, in reply to "Re: Rising and Falling: a continuation"
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: --Previous Message--
: --Previous Message by Steve--
: ...
: First, I witness it in myself and
: others--the bits that are not useful or
: productive rising and falling away in their
: own time.
: from:
:
: http://members.boardhost.com/Zentao00/msg/1229791696.html
:
: Hi Steve,
:
: Do you not witness things becoming habitual
: or people acquiring bad habits (that persist
: despite not being useful, or long after
: their usefulness has gone)?
: Bao Pu
: from:
:
: http://members.boardhost.com/Zentao00/msg/1229873727.html
:
: Steve: I'm not smart enough to know when
: habits are persisting beyond their time of
: usefulness. How could I know such a thing?
:
: -- It's true that it is not often easy to
: tell when something is no longer useful.
: Like this conversation, for example. But
: I've found that most of the time, with a
: little introspection, I can. I suspect the
: same is true for everyone.
:
: Steve: How can I know where the dividing
: line of useful and not useful is? What looks
: bad or ugly or not useful to me might, in
: fact, be quite useful in the scheme of
: things.
:
: -- Yes, that's also something to keep in
: mind. But again, it's not impossible. For
: example, damaging a relationship by verbal
: or physical abuse can be identified as not
: useful or productive if one really wants
: to continue to enjoy the relationship.
:
: Steve: I know when I'm unhappy though--and I
: know when others report being unhappy. Once
: unhappiness is recognized, the trajectory
: often changes. Sometimes for the better, but
: not always.
:
: -- I've noticed that too. But perhaps more
: often the trajectory doesn't change unless
: some effort is put into it. Perhaps a poor
: example: I've noticed that I procrastinate
: too much and things don't get done that I
: want done and that stuff piles up. I've
: recognized this, but the habit has not
: changed. I suspect that it will take some
: "self-cultivation" to correct
: this, but I am still procrastinating that
: too ;-)
:
: Steve: I cannot 'make' myself recognize
: unhappiness or un-usefulness in my life.
: Cultivation will not achieve that for me.
: Either the recognition happens, or it does
: not. Maybe cultivation works for others in
: that regard. I can't say. I suspect, though,
: that once you recognize the 'desirability'
: or usefulness of cultivation, you are
: already on a changed trajectory. U.G.
: Krishnamurti described the movement toward
: natural, uncontrived, living--if and when it
: occurs--as being 'acausal.' When it happens,
: it just happens. You cannot 'make' it
: happen. That sounds right to me.
:
: -- So you know when you're unhappy but can't
: 'make yourself recognize' it. Well, without
: going into defining 'happiness' and
: 'usefulness,' I'd say that yes, we can often
: know if we're unhappy or doing something not
: useful or productive. Sometimes it's
: obvious, sometimes it's an intuitive
: feeling. There have been times where I've
: known that something was bothering me, but I
: wasn't exactly sure what is was (until
: later).
:
: But I've also noticed there are things which
: are sources of unhappiness (and
: unhealthiness and disharmony) which are hard
: to detect unless one engages in some
: introspection (or perhaps meditation?). If
: one isn't inclined to look within, to engage
: in some introspection to achieve some
: self-knowledge, then they won't recognize
: these things. I suppose external
: circumstances might one day force someone to
: make that inward journey, or they may live
: in ignorance to the sources of their
: troubles till they die.
:
: So, in a way I'm saying that anyone can
: make something happen by opening the doors
: to allow himself or herself to see it, just
: as there are things we can do to prevent
: ourselves from seeing/recognizing the
: sources of unhappiness, poor health and
: disharmony. Ideally, we'd all be very
: self-aware, but in my experience, this is
: not the case. Not without some 'effort,' at
: least in the beginning.
:
: Good health,
: Bao Pu
:
: Greetings Bao Pu,
:
: This 'effort' that you alluded to, imo, is
: the behavior that emanates from a self
: generated desire.
:
: If one finds him/herself in perfect
: harmony, no such desire would arise. If you
: aren't afflicted with doubt and sense
: disharmony, then there is no desire to do
: anything other than to accept, what is .
: Yes, No?
:
: in peace,
: gar
Hi gar
Are you assuming someone can be in perfect harmony? How would you define this harmony?
love,
rat
95
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"The Tao is basically utterly open. Utter openeness has no substance. It ends in endlessness, begins in beginninglessnes".
-Li Daoqun
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